Shadow Dragon Warlock

[Dr. Cliché]

I'm currently planning a campaign, and one of the villains will be a shadow dragon (probably around Juvenile or Young Adult age).

However, my idea is to have it cast spells as a warlock, instead of as a sorcerer - partially to make it a bit different, and partly because (IMO) the invocations just seem like a good fit for a shadow dragon.

Anyway, a few questions:

1) Do you think this is a reasonable idea? (Has anyone tried something similar?)

2) Do you think that I should replace each sorcerer caster level with more than 1 warlock caster level? I ask because warlock invocations tend to be more limited, and warlocks also get other stuff (better BAB, d6 hit points, and various other abilities) compared to sorcerers - which the dragon obviously won't receive.

[Emperor Tippy]

Just make it's Warlock level equal to it's HD for invocation purposes and I would give it Eldritch Blast as well.

[Dusk Eclipse]

What Tippy said.

[Dr. Cliché]

Thanks for the quick responses. :smallsmile:


Just make it's Warlock level equal to it's HD for invocation purposes and I would give it Eldritch Blast as well.

Yeah, I'd planned to give him Eldritch Blast. Sorry - I should have made that clear.

Anyway, let's say I took a Juvenile Shadow dragon and make it cast invocations (and eldritch blast) as a Lv13 Warlock. Do you think I'd then need to raise its CR? If so, what increase would you suggest?

[Emperor Tippy]

Nah, that is fine for CR 8.

[Diarmuid]

Are you planning on removing the breath weapon in leiu of the Eldritch Blast?

[Dr. Cliché]

Nah, that is fine for CR 8.

Really? Huh.


Are you planning on removing the breath weapon in leiu of the Eldritch Blast?

I hadn't been planning to remove his breath weapon, no.

To be honest, I was considering allowing him to use his breath weapon as an eldritch blast. I.e. instead of a 30ft cone, he can breath it as a 60ft ranged touch against a single target - but can then modify it with an eldritch shape and/or an eldritch essence invocation (though obviously the damage ones won't do anything). Not sure if that's a silly idea though.

[Diarmuid]

I'm assuming you wouldn't also make it usable at will as opposed to the normal 1d4 recharge on dragons breath weapons.

The short range and offering a reflex save are some of the balancing factors for the dragons. Doubling the range and making it a touch (assuming this removes the save) might be a bit much.

[Dr. Cliché]

I'm assuming you wouldn't also make it usable at will as opposed to the normal 1d4 recharge on dragons breath weapons.

Lord no; it would still have the standard recharge time. I want to challenge my players - not murder them. :smallwink:


The short range and offering a reflex save are some of the balancing factors for the dragons. Doubling the range and making it a touch (assuming this removes the save) might be a bit much.

Fair enough. I'd wondered if limiting the target's of the breath weapon would balance it, but you're probably right.

[nedz]

You could use DFA instead of Warlock.

Fewer invocations, but possibly more relevant ones; and more breath weapons.

[John Longarrow]

Personally I'd just replace the sorcerer casting with warlock casting.

If you give the dragon the abilities of a 13th level warlock you'll get something that's a lot closer to CR 13 than to CR 8. Each HD of a dragon is worth more than a level in warlock if it ALSO gets the invocations and blast.

[Dr. Cliché]

You could use DFA instead of Warlock.

Fewer invocations, but possibly more relevant ones; and more breath weapons.

Thing is, he already has a breath weapon - I'm not sure he needs more (even if they are usable at will).

With regard to the DFA invocations, most of them are either on the warlock list, or not particularly useful. Really, the only interesting one is Humanoid Shape.



If you give the dragon the abilities of a 13th level warlock you'll get something that's a lot closer to CR 13 than to CR 8. Each HD of a dragon is worth more than a level in warlock if it ALSO gets the invocations and blast.

That was what my thinking too.

However, I don't mind upping his CR a bit in order to give him some more usable warlock abilities (a CR8 dragon with a 1d6 eldritch blast is unlikely to scare anyone :smallwink:). What Warlock caster level would you think suitable if I wanted to make him CR 10 or 11?

[Dusk Eclipse]

There is a feat in Dragons of Eberron, that gives True Dragons (with Sorcerer 5 levels, guess you could substitute with Warlock levels or fudge it) the Gold's Dragon Alternate Form (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#alternateForm) for 3/day.

[John Longarrow]

[QUOTE=Dr. Cliché;16061397]However, I don't mind upping his CR a bit in order to give him some more usable warlock abilities (a CR8 dragon with a 1d6 eldritch blast is unlikely to scare anyone ). What Warlock caster level would you think suitable if I wanted to make him CR 10 or 11?QUOTE]

In general its not the 1d6 blast that will up his CR. Its the other abilities his level in warlock will give. Think how much fun this dragon would have if he can do Earthen Grasp at will to keep people still till he can breath on them? Look through the invocations and see which ones as at will would really help him out.

If you choose good invocations, that's where you get the CR 9/10.

[Dr. Cliché]

In general its not the 1d6 blast that will up his CR. Its the other abilities his level in warlock will give. Think how much fun this dragon would have if he can do Earthen Grasp at will to keep people still till he can breath on them? Look through the invocations and see which ones as at will would really help him out.

If you choose good invocations, that's where you get the CR 9/10.

Interesting - I certainly see what you mean. To be honest, I hadn't actually considered Earthen Grasp; I've really only been looking at abilities that fit the 'shadow' theme (and blast-shape invocations):

Least - Devil's Sight (mainly because it always strikes me as odd that Shadow Dragons can't see in magical darkness), See the Unseen, Darkness, Hideous Blow.
Lesser - Beshadowed Blast, Flee the Scene, Hungry Darkness, Eldritch Chain.

[Tulya]

The Warlock's only real excelling point is endurance casting, which is even less relevant on an NPC than most PCs. In the absence of marathon encounters (or assumed marathon encounters) to give a character with Warlock casting the spotlight, their invoking ability is generally comparable to a Sorcerer around 60-75% of their Warlock level, except at very early levels.

The scariest things a 13th level Warlock are doing are pretty much:
- Starting all encounters invisible, flying, and with an assortment of minor low level buffs.
- Carpeting the battlefield in tentacles and sludge to slow down and ensnare their enemies.
- Blinding or nauseating 1-2 enemies on a failed save while dealing 6d6 damage.

All of which 7th level Wizards and 8th level Sorcerers can accomplish nearly as well or better, along with some other tricks.

A party of four mildly to moderately optimized characters around 7th-8th level with an arcane and divine caster should be more than capable of defeating a juvenile dragon invoking as a 13th level Warlock. They have equivalent spellcasting prowess (for the first few encounters of the day), and far superior action economy. Alternately, a party of three low op characters and a well-optimized caster, or a well-optimized group of 4 characters without a caster ought to be able to manage. I'd rate the encounter for such a group around CR 7-9, depending on the circumstances.

For lower optimized groups, especially those without casters, caster enemies tend to be problematic in general and are much harder to rate. For instance, if the party lacks a means of flight (spell or equipment), even a 6th level caster can seem insurmountable to a party of four 8 level characters.
Warlock invoking around 8th level should be very appropriate for a low op group, especially with the list of invocations you've chosen. The dragonlock's limited range of attacks and poor flight maneuverability should restrict most of the potential shenigans.

For a CR 10-11 encounter, for a mildly to moderately optimized group, I'd say a Young Adult dragon with invoking equal to its Hit Dice is fair. One Dark Invocation amounts to Greater Invisibility, Foresight, Baleful Polymorph, two negative levels on a failed save to blast targets (redundant), or stunning blast targets for 1 round on a failed save, while its damage capability is 8d6 on its blasts. Those options are about as scary as what a 10th level arcane or divine caster is bringing to the fight, and a traditional party for that CR will generally have one of each.

---
Edit: Whoops, forgot it was a shadow dragon rather than black for a moment.

[Dr. Cliché]

Thanks for taking the time to write that in-depth summary, Tulya.


A party of four mildly to moderately optimized characters around 7th-8th level with an arcane and divine caster should be more than capable of defeating a juvenile dragon invoking as a 13th level Warlock. They have equivalent spellcasting prowess (for the first few encounters of the day), and far superior action economy. Alternately, a party of three low op characters and a well-optimized caster, or a well-optimized group of 4 characters without a caster ought to be able to manage. I'd rate the encounter for such a group around CR 7-9, depending on the circumstances.

Well, with regard to action economy, he'll probably have some weak minions to make things trickier. I'm trying to get an idea about what his CR would be alone first, so I have an idea about what XP value of minions to put with him (thinking in terms of this guide (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1nx-o8VAjhUwh3nnfzDQT-JA5eFLnN_BZJiBitGjBMDg/edit#heading=h.4wuvwsrjnju0)).




For lower optimized groups, especially those without casters, caster enemies tend to be problematic in general and are much harder to rate. For instance, if the party lacks a means of flight (spell or equipment), even a 6th level caster can seem insurmountable to a party of four 8 level characters.
Warlock invoking around 8th level should be very appropriate for a low op group, especially with the list of invocations you've chosen. The dragonlock's limited range of attacks and poor flight maneuverability should restrict most of the potential shenigans.

If it's any help, I have 3 players using gestalt characters - currently a druid/ranger (with bear companion and spells to summon more bears), a favoured soul/paladin of freedom, and a warlock/cleric.

I'm afraid I'm a little uncertain about how to tell how optimised a group is. :smallconfused:



For a CR 10-11 encounter, for a mildly to moderately optimized group, I'd say a Young Adult dragon with invoking equal to its Hit Dice is fair. One Dark Invocation amounts to Greater Invisibility, Foresight, Baleful Polymorph, two negative levels on a failed save to blast targets (redundant), or stunning blast targets for 1 round on a failed save, while its damage capability is 8d6 on its blasts. Those options are about as scary as what a 10th level arcane or divine caster is bringing to the fight, and a traditional party for that CR will generally have one of each.

Out of interest, what if the warlock was just a human (or other standard race) - what level do you think he should be to make him CR11? I guess I'm trying to come to grips with how much you think a Warlock level is worth, when not attached to a dragon.

[Runestar]

Are you planning on removing the breath weapon in leiu of the Eldritch Blast?

I don't see a need to, honestly. The eldritch blast will generally be weaker than any other attack option, unless there is some pesky PC it simply can't reach.

Same for invocations. You won't have time to use them in combat anyways, leaving those 24-hour buffs as the sole useful ones.

[nedz]

I don't see a need to, honestly. The eldritch blast will generally be weaker than any other attack option, unless there is some pesky PC it simply can't reach.

Same for invocations. You won't have time to use them in combat anyways, leaving those 24-hour buffs as the sole useful ones.

Yes — the Eldritch Blast will be just enough damage to effectively cast Summon PCs.

You need some other tricks.
Flying is required, as is See Invisibility or similar (Voidsense maybe)

Some kind of BC will help.
Chilling Tentacles can work, but will it work on your PCs ?

The repeating Dispel can be good for shutting down PCs, forget the non ranged versions.

[John Longarrow]

For a 13th level warlock, you'd have 2 greater invocations, 3 lesser, and 3 least.

That could be:
Devour Magic
Wall of Perilous Flame (Last Concentration +1 round/Lvl)

Voracious Dispelling
Walk Unseen (Invisibility)
Dead Walk OR Charm

See the Unseen
Earthen Grasp
Spider Walk

So that means you have an invisible dragon on the ceiling, hiding behind a wall of fire, taking down spells while it makes arms on the ground to grapple the party. Toss in that it keeps some corpses around to animate for cannon fodder (read dead trolls/giants) and its very able to animate at will and you have a nasty dragon. If you only want Devour Magic and skip the Voracious Dispelling it can have both Charm Monster and Animate dead at will. It can have LIVE Trolls and Giants charmed and ready to attack the party, then animate them once their dead.

I'm thinking that on a 13 HD dragon can make for a very hard fight.

Toning it down to just one invocation shouldn't be much to change the CR.

[Dr. Cliché]

For a 13th level warlock, you'd have 2 greater invocations, 3 lesser, and 3 least.

That could be:
Devour Magic
Wall of Perilous Flame (Last Concentration +1 round/Lvl)

Voracious Dispelling
Walk Unseen (Invisibility)
Dead Walk OR Charm

See the Unseen
Earthen Grasp
Spider Walk

So that means you have an invisible dragon on the ceiling, hiding behind a wall of fire, taking down spells while it makes arms on the ground to grapple the party. Toss in that it keeps some corpses around to animate for cannon fodder (read dead trolls/giants) and its very able to animate at will and you have a nasty dragon. If you only want Devour Magic and skip the Voracious Dispelling it can have both Charm Monster and Animate dead at will. It can have LIVE Trolls and Giants charmed and ready to attack the party, then animate them once their dead.

I'm thinking that on a 13 HD dragon can make for a very hard fight.

Toning it down to just one invocation shouldn't be much to change the CR.

Wow, that could be a really nasty combination.

As a question though, aren't Spider Walk and Walk Unseen a little redundant? I ask because he already has Shadow Blend for invisibility, and can simply fly if he wants to stay out of melee range.

[John Longarrow]

Dr. Cliché

Invisible AND hiding is generally better than either.
Spider Climb lets him just hang on a ceiling instead of having to move (flight) which tends to make him easier to see and restricts what he can do.

If he were playing mid-level warlock games he'd have a lot of spare parts laying around to get moving (animate dead) which he wouldn't worry about controlling. Hence hanging out on the ceiling works well. Toss in that he's hiding in shadows invisibly and the party will have a hard time spotting him.

Once they get involved in fighting a bunch of mid HD undead, he breaths and moves to the next spot. With flight this can be problematic.

If you were running him as also being a mid-level warlock he has a LOT of tricks to drag out the fight...