Potential Fix for the Warlock

[Emperor Tippy]

I was thinking earlier and I came up with a possible fix for the Warlock, to bring him more inline power wise with the other casters. This hasn't been play tested yet and I'm looking for some people to test it if any of you are interested.

Every third warlock level give the warlock an extra warlock level.

For example:

Warlock 1 (Level 1)
Warlock 2 (Level 2)
Warlock 3 (Level 3)
Warlock 4
Warlock 5 (Level 4)
Warlock 6 (Level 5)
Warlock 7 (Level 6)
Warlock 8
Warlock 9 (Level 7)
Warlock 10 (Level 8)
Warlock 11 (Level 9)
Warlock 12
Warlock 13 (Level 10)
Warlock 14 (Level 11)
Warlock 15 (Level 12)
Warlock 16
Warlock 17 (Level 13)
Warlock 18 (Level 14)
Warlock 19 (Level 15)
Warlock 20

The bold levels are bonus levels which don't count towards ECL.

So Warlock 20 becomes 15 class levels.

Basically a pure Warlock is 5 class levels ahead of the rest of the party at level 15.

Actual Levels count for such things as WBL and ECL and Feats and Max Skill Ranks.

Warlock levels count toward skill points in that each Warlock level gives you skill points as if you had actually level;ed. Saves are based on Warlock levels, BAB is based on Warlock levels, Invocations are based on Warlock levels, and Class abilities are based on warlock levels.

[Indoril]

Maybe. What's your reasoning behind it?

[Emperor Tippy]

Reasoning is that Warlocks are just *that* weak. I believe that even with this fix a warlock is not the equal to a Wizard, a Sorcerer, a Cleric, a Druid, or a Psion at level 20. I think that they are slightly ahead of the Bard.

[Renegade Paladin]

...

The warlock doesn't need boosting; it needs to be friggin' nerfed. The drow warlock in our World's Largest Dungeon campaign was easily the most powerful character in the party right up until he died, and he lasted the longest of any of the characters thus far by about five gaming sessions.

[Emperor Tippy]

...

The warlock doesn't need boosting; it needs to be friggin' nerfed.
Please, please tell me that you are not being serious.


The drow warlock in our World's Largest Dungeon campaign was easily the most powerful character in the party right up until he died, and he lasted the longest of any of the characters thus far by about five gaming sessions.

Yes, in WLD which is basically 1 continuous encounter without rest a warlock would look overpowered. Any game that actually allows rest every 4 encounters will show the warlock to be vastly inferior pretty much every casting class in existence.

[Pegasos989]

...

The warlock doesn't need boosting; it needs to be friggin' nerfed. The drow warlock in our World's Largest Dungeon campaign was easily the most powerful character in the party right up until he died, and he lasted the longest of any of the characters thus far by about five gaming sessions.

It is the weakest base class (arguably compared to the bard) that I have seen. If it was in any way powerful compared to others, none of you have any skill in building mechanically decent characters. This is a fact... (EDIT: Waaait a min. A drow warlock? So he was most powerful even with friggin level adjustment?! Did you know that he only gets one eldritch blast a round, not more based on BAB?)


Anyways, interesting fix and should work. But what if I want to take 20 levels all in warlock? I get something like warlock 25? Also, does this get to epic (which is based on hd, not ecl) earlier?

[Neo]

I'd suggest rather finding a way to make him more powerful than just shortening the duration someone spends as one(subtle hint).

ie. something akin to making the blast a regular or the damage per blast increases with level.

[Emperor Tippy]

Anyways, interesting fix and should work.
Thank you.


But what if I want to take 20 levels all in warlock? I get something like warlock 25?
Yes.


Also, does this get to epic (which is based on hd, not ecl) earlier?I have to think about this one. I'm not even sure what an epic warlock looks like now. I've honestly never seen one past level 12.

[Khantalas]

I once had a fix that relied heavily on homebrewing.

First, I've changed the Eldritch Blast damage to 3d6 per four levels, rounded down (with a minimum of 1d6). So, if you're level 3, you get 2d6 damage per blast, if you're 7, you get 5d6 damage per blast, if you're level 8, you get 6d6 per blast.

Second, I've doubled the rate the Warlock gains invocations. Everytime he would get a new invocation, he gets two instead. The Warlock would now have 23 invocations at level 20 (you still get one invocation at level 1).

Of course, then I searched for some useful Warlock invocations. There were some nifty ones around here. Made by The Demented One, IIRC.

Then decided it would almost be overpowered, then scratched the whole operation.

[Bears With Lasers]

...

The warlock doesn't need boosting; it needs to be friggin' nerfed. The drow warlock in our World's Largest Dungeon campaign was easily the most powerful character in the party right up until he died, and he lasted the longest of any of the characters thus far by about five gaming sessions.

That speaks very, VERY poorly about the rest of your characters. Warlocks suck. OH NOES! A couple of d6es a round! How horrific!
Even in a "continuous big fight" encounter like the WLD, Warlocks still shouldn't shine compared to any decently played and built character (not even optimized, just decent).

[Emperor Tippy]

Yeah. I could homebrew a good fix but it would take a while and could be very overpowered potentially (especially depending on how it interacts with other classes).

I figured that this fix is easy to tweak (make the extra level every 4th or 5th level instead if you want a slight weakening) and I don't see any real ways to combine this into something horrendously overpowered.

[Velvet Elvis]

Khantalas - Darn, things were looking so good until that last line.

I'm going to be playing a Warlock (or at least I hope to) primarily for flavor in a more RP-oriented game, and didn't bother to inspect the class very closely.

But your post begs the question: why did you just scrap the plan rather than applying tweakage? Sounds like you were pretty close to lifting the class into the same level of juicy goodness most other base classes are (supposedly) enjoying.

[Khantalas]

Well, you can still apply those changes. However, good luck on finding 23 worthy invocations around.

[Emperor Tippy]

Complete Mage has some good invocations

[Avicenex]

The "bonus level every three levels" would get really confusing, and seems like to strange a way to solve the problem. I think Khantalas's solution of giving him more invocations and better blast damage is a way better solution. What the warlock really needs is some invocations that are better, and ways to improve those he already has.

Maybe make invocations that stack (like allow two or three invocations modifying the blast to be applied as opposed to one), or have metamagic invocations (unless you can already do that) would solve some of the weakness issues.

Of course, a clever DM could give the warlock his chance to shine by throwing a whole lot of encounters that drain the primary casters. Of course the fighters would still probably end up doing better. Meh.

[Emperor Tippy]

The "bonus level every three levels" would get really confusing, and seems like to strange a way to solve the problem.
I don't really see whats confusing about it. Warlock 20 is ECL 15. Warlock 4 is ECL 3.


I think Khantalas's solution of giving him more invocations and better blast damage is a way better solution.
It may be, but I wanted something quick.


What the warlock really needs is some invocations that are better, and ways to improve those he already has.
Yeah. He could use some better invocations.


Maybe make invocations that stack (like allow two or three invocations modifying the blast to be applied as opposed to one), or have metamagic invocations (unless you can already do that) would solve some of the weakness issues.
But that involves lots of work to create, balance, and test.

[Mauril Everleaf]

i guess the warlock that i play is totally different than the one from the books. my dm homebrewed up a warlock that totally rocks. in one round, at level one, i can deal 18d8 anti-matter damage (non-elemental, non-magic, no save) in a single round, if i roll my stats well (18 int and wis), and still be able to deal 1d10 a round thereafter. plus you get minor healing abilities, elemental damage (not magical elemental, straight elemental), and anti-magic, all at first level. at higher levels, you can recreate wizard spells, and can become better summoners than any caster in the game. (they are broken beyond all reason, but he doesnt know that, so i play one whenever possible =-D). so i guess because of not playing with core warlocks, i cant really give my opinion (that they need to be nerfed to be balanced).

[Khantalas]

i guess the warlock that i play is totally different than the one from the books. my dm homebrewed up a warlock that totally rocks. in one round, at level one, i can deal 18d8 anti-matter damage (non-elemental, non-magic, no save) in a single round, if i roll my stats well (18 int and wis), and still be able to deal 1d10 a round thereafter. plus you get minor healing abilities, elemental damage (not magical elemental, straight elemental), and anti-magic, all at first level. at higher levels, you can recreate wizard spells, and can become better summoners than any caster in the game. (they are broken beyond all reason, but he doesnt know that, so i play one whenever possible =-D). so i guess because of not playing with core warlocks, i cant really give my opinion (that they need to be nerfed to be balanced).

Wait while I puke my guts out.

[Renegade Paladin]

That speaks very, VERY poorly about the rest of your characters. Warlocks suck. OH NOES! A couple of d6es a round! How horrific!
Even in a "continuous big fight" encounter like the WLD, Warlocks still shouldn't shine compared to any decently played and built character (not even optimized, just decent).
That he doesn't run out of. WLD isn't just one continuous encounter; it's a continuous encounter a good 3 to 4 levels above the average party level. The spellcasters can and will run out of offensive spells after two or three fights. The warlock? Merrily blasts away all day, and the at-will invocations got us out of more jams than I care to count.

Our DM just nixed level adjustment for the campaign; we die enough without it.

[Khantalas]

That he doesn't run out of. (...) The spellcasters can and will run out of offensive spells after two or three fights. The warlock? Merrily blasts away all day, and the at-will invocations got us out of more jams than I care to count.

Now you're gonna say that fighters are overpowered because they can swing their sword all day, aren't you?

[Renegade Paladin]

Now you're gonna say that fighters are overpowered because they can swing their sword all day, aren't you?
No, because the fighter's up front getting the living hell beaten out of him by the minotaur barbarians that have as many levels of barbarian as he has fighter in addition to being minotaurs. We lose an average of two characters per session; we've had nearly total party kills five times, with all except the last one being the warlock who escaped. The bastard was only taken down by the trapped teleporters that turn you to stone when you use them.

[Khantalas]

And aren't there ranged combatants that can beat the warlock just as easily?

[Bears With Lasers]

That he doesn't run out of. WLD isn't just one continuous encounter; it's a continuous encounter a good 3 to 4 levels above the average party level. The spellcasters can and will run out of offensive spells after two or three fights. The warlock? Merrily blasts away all day, and the at-will invocations got us out of more jams than I care to count.

Our DM just nixed level adjustment for the campaign; we die enough without it.

He doesn't run out. Great. Who cares if you can do your thing all day if your thing is sucking? Combat round after combat round, the Warlock contributes less than anyone except maybe a monk.

The WLD is essentially the Warlock's ideal environment, but even there, it's far from overpowered. The fighter can swing his sword or shoot a bow all day, too, and do more damage.

Warlocks are good at Not Dying, like monks... and, like monks, chronically incapable of doing anything useful each combat round.

[Culwch]

Any ideas on what to do with Epic Warlock? The Complete Arcane says he doesn't get any more Invocations, nor are there Invocations of a level higher than "Dark" (with the Dark's highest spell-level equivalent being 8, if I recall correctly).

This seems a bit unfair that when an Epic Wizard can carve for himself a new plane of existence and with a judicious use of acolytes can bring a world to an end, the most an Epic Warlock can do is still to blast an enemy with negative energy for negligible damage, perhaps drain a level or two.

[Khantalas]

He gets a very sub-optimal feat that gives him one new invocation.

And the highest Dark invocations has a level of 9, IIRC.

Well, we should let an Epic Warlock take Epic Spellcasting. I don't care what the feat says.

[Emperor Tippy]

How about for the epic warlock he doesn't get any Epic Save or BAB. Instead he gets to continue his regular BAB and Save progression. And his invocation gain. Or allow epic invocations.

[Culwch]

But there's no such thing as Epic Invocations ;) And I'm at loss how to create any, so that they're neither grossly overpowered nor underpowered to what other arcane casters can do at the same level.

[Emperor Tippy]

Well an invocation that allows timestop at will would be epic. As would one that turns you into a Pit Fiend.

Or allow them like you do epic spell creation but limit the invocation DC to the players Warlock levels. At Warlock level 30 you can create a DC 30 epic spell as an invocation. Or maybe even make it 1.5 times warlock levels so at warlock level 30 you can create a DC 45 epic invocation.

[Bobbis]

I think the warlock is in line with other casters for one reason. I recently allowed someone to read a warlock after carefully reading all the invocations and the class details in the splatbook. They are easily the best at one thing that I can see:

Crafting.

They can fake any spell, even divine spells with a DC 25+ Spell Level for crafting, and they can take 10. This guy's level 9 warlock has a total of +17 use magic device (12 ranks, +5 charisma). Which means in a few levels when we've got some extra downtime, he can craft a wand/scroll of -any- spell, and use it just as easily (activate blindly is only a DC 25 check, after all).

Sure their spell selection sucks; but if they've got a bit of extra exp or gold; send it towards some useful magic device. In the test run I ran with him (involving two other willing PC's characters, a Combat Control Fighter and a Sneaky Rogue) they managed to set off the alarm for a bandit camp and fought a series of encounters with no more then a few rounds (at most a minute) between them. The warlock got knocked out once from a sneak attack from a suggested rogue, but other then that when we playtested him he worked just fine.

[Diggorian]

I'm thinking the level skipping provides more problems then it solves. If I thought Warlocks underpowered I'd enhance the things they do get: more DR, more invocations, more faster healing earlier.

That said I play a 7th Warlock in Ptolus and, like Renegade Paladin, am having a ball doing it. :smallbiggrin: Last session I killed a quarter of the things we faced (nice since I'm one-sixth of the party) then defended us from a formal Accusation of Heresy in the Church's court.

At epic level I'm gonna seduce the Queen and befriend the King. :smallwink:

[Aust_Arrowsplitter]

I agree that, while the Warlock needs to be pumped up, I think that the biggest things he needs are AOE damage (and not even fireball sized, but still, something that does't require him to be like 15th level and get close to the big scary monsters.) and increased damage.

As for the Warlocks TOTALLY sucking? Bah. If you play 'em right, warlocks can contribute just fine. They've got decent AC, and can hold the line for a round or three while the fighter retreats to get patched up. They also make decent snipers. Granted, they don't make as good of primary damage dealers in a party as a sorcerer or wizard, but they are great utility mages, and can get at things and enemies that most characters can only hope for. The flying, invisible sorcerer? Not a problem, with fell flight or eldritch spear and see the unseen. While they can't deal big damage over a big area, they can apply precision damage to targets that sorcerers and wizards can't touch without torching their friends as well.

I just think that maybe you should let them use their eldritch blast multiple times as a full round action, as BAB allows, and give them a few more invocations so they'll have more room for the fun utility effects. And maybe an AOE effect that doesn't force them to get quite so close?

[Emperor Tippy]

I agree that, while the Warlock needs to be pumped up, I think that the biggest things he needs are AOE damage (and not even fireball sized, but still, something that does't require him to be like 15th level and get close to the big scary monsters.) and increased damage.
Eldrith Chain allows you to hit multiple targets starting at 5th level (its a lesser invocation). 1 extra target per 5 levels of warlock.

Eldrith Cone affects all targets within a 30 foot cone. Its a greater invocation (you can get it at level 11).

Eldrith Doom is a 20 foot burst and you can exclude any targets you want. Its a dark invocation and you can get it at level 16




As for the Warlocks TOTALLY sucking? Bah. If you play 'em right, warlocks can contribute just fine.
Not really. The can do some thigns well but overall they suck.


They've got decent AC, and can hold the line for a round or three while the fighter retreats to get patched up.
The rouge can do the same. Or the Cleric. Or the Druid. Or the scout. Or any number of other classes.


They also make decent snipers.
They are acceptable archers but they are not casters.


Granted, they don't make as good of primary damage dealers in a party as a sorcerer or wizard,
... Who uses a sorcerer or a wizard as a primary damage dealer? Thats what you have fighters for.


but they are great utility mages, and can get at things and enemies that most characters can only hope for.
They are horrible as utility mages do to their sucky number of invocations.


The flying, invisible sorcerer? Not a problem, with fell flight or eldritch spear and see the unseen.
The warlock only has 11 invocations though at level 20.


While they can't deal big damage over a big area, they can apply precision damage to targets that sorcerers and wizards can't touch without torching their friends as well.
Mastery of Shapeing. The feat that allows spell shapeing.


I just think that maybe you should let them use their eldritch blast multiple times as a full round action, as BAB allows, and give them a few more invocations so they'll have more room for the fun utility effects. And maybe an AOE effect that doesn't force them to get quite so close?

They need about triple their current number of invocations to become effective. Or extra levels.


Warlocks make good NPC's and excellent thieves and spies. They can also make good guards if you give them extra invocations. But as a PC race they are very bad.

[Jerthanis]

I'm not sure if I follow the logic behind the proposed fix and I'm wondering if you can walk me through it. So if you were playing a level 1 game, you'd be warlock as normal... then when everyone gained enough for 2nd level, everyone would be level 2... then when you gain the experience for level 3, the Warlock would count as ECL 3, but have the abilities and HD as if he were level 4? Doesn't this seem like an unnatural progression? Especially since it sounds like you'd get more skillpoints at those "bonus" warlock levels which you would be unable to put into your (presumedly maxed out) skills, and would have to distribute them into other skills, which you wouldn't have the steady progression to keep up or train more fully? This fix seems to be more a way of saying "Warlock as written is terrible" as opposed to "These changes to Warlock as written make it more fun/effective to play."

And Warlocks ARE really good at crafting. Being able to mimic any other spell and can activate their own scrolls/wands/staves means they can (with the appropriate expenditure of gold) recreate any spell they want to make an item they want. A Wizard might not take forge ring because he can't make rings of protection or rings of regeneration, and a cleric might not take it because he can't make of invisibilty or of blinking... but a Warlock can make all of them easily. Combine such crafting versatility with the ability to deal consistant damage each round, and fairly quickly be able to bounce it around amongst multiple targets without risk of harming the party or ever really running into a situation where it's completely useless (against constructs it's pretty bad, but there are plenty of classes who suck against constructs), as well as the ability to be very survivable. If you count the money you can save through a Warlock crafting everything for the party, added to the fact that warlocks can make scrolls/wands/staves of any spell they need, warlocks can be FAIRLY good. There are a few fixes I would still support, like, more/more interesting invocations, a seperate list for Eldrich Blast modifying invocations and invocations which produce their own effect, and more skillpoints/level, and maybe an overall increase in their extra abilities, like more DR and so forth.

I don't know if they're the very WORST class in the game, since Hexblade, Spellthief and Samurai exist... but I'd be willing to give you that they're weaker than any specific class out of the PHB (bards are okay, they get plenty of save-or-loses, including some of the best ones, and if they just got them a LITTLE faster they'd be perfectly respectible) Still, they're fun to play, and do contribute, perhaps less than others, but they contribute enough that I wouldn't groan and ask, "Are you sure?" when someone claims they're going to try playing one at character creation.

[Renegade Paladin]

Last I checked, Mastery of Shaping was an archmage ability, not a feat.

[Emperor Tippy]

I'm not sure if I follow the logic behind the proposed fix and I'm wondering if you can walk me through it.
No problem.


So if you were playing a level 1 game, you'd be warlock as normal... then when everyone gained enough for 2nd level, everyone would be level 2... then when you gain the experience for level 3, the Warlock would count as ECL 3, but have the abilities and HD as if he were level 4?Correct. Think of it as negative level adjustment. :smallbiggrin:


Doesn't this seem like an unnatural progression?It is. But I didn't wanted to stop people from going 1 level or 2 level dip to pick up some nifty ability.


Especially since it sounds like you'd get more skillpoints at those "bonus" warlock levels which you would be unable to put into your (presumedly maxed out) skills, and would have to distribute them into other skills, which you wouldn't have the steady progression to keep up or train more fully?It's more "Hmm, I can take some ranks is forgery even though I never normally would do to not enough skill points".


This fix seems to be more a way of saying "Warlock as written is terrible" as opposed to "These changes to Warlock as written make it more fun/effective to play."I wanted a quick fix. I don't really want to rebuild the warlock from the ground up and I haven't seen any fixes that really work yet.


And Warlocks ARE really good at crafting. Being able to mimic any other spell and can activate their own scrolls/wands/staves means they can (with the appropriate expenditure of gold) recreate any spell they want to make an item they want.Yep. But at a rather large XP expenditure.


A Wizard might not take forge ring because he can't make rings of protection or rings of regeneration, and a cleric might not take it because he can't make of invisibilty or of blinking... but a Warlock can make all of them easily.Yep.


Combine such crafting versatility with the ability to deal consistant damage each round, and fairly quickly be able to bounce it around amongst multiple targets without risk of harming the party or ever really running into a situation where it's completely useless (against constructs it's pretty bad, but there are plenty of classes who suck against constructs), as well as the ability to be very survivable.Look at the artificer. It can craft anything better than a warlock and it is better in general then the warlock is.


If you count the money you can save through a Warlock crafting everything for the party, added to the fact that warlocks can make scrolls/wands/staves of any spell they need, warlocks can be FAIRLY good.And crafting everything would put him about 3-4 levels behind the rest of the party.


There are a few fixes I would still support, like, more/more interesting invocations, a seperate list for Eldrich Blast modifying invocations and invocations which produce their own effect, and more skillpoints/level, and maybe an overall increase in their extra abilities, like more DR and so forth.Yeah. But that is rebuilding the class from the bottom up which I have yet to find someone willing to do.


I don't know if they're the very WORST class in the game, since Hexblade, Spellthief and Samurai exist... but I'd be willing to give you that they're weaker than any specific class out of the PHBYeah. They are not quite the worst but it is close enough as to be a non-issue.


Still, they're fun to play, and do contribute, perhaps less than others, but they contribute enough that I wouldn't groan and ask, "Are you sure?" when someone claims they're going to try playing one at character creation.I would be groaning unless it was a player I knew very well or I had a really good DM.


Last I checked, Mastery of Shaping was an archmage ability, not a feat.

I never said it was a feat. And most wizards and sorcerers will take a 1/2 level dip into Archmage to pick up mastery of shaping and arcane reach.

[God_of_Luck]

Ahem Culwch, Epic Warlock (Update to CA)

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ei/20061027a

And more Warlock invocations can be found in Dragon Magic and Complete Mage; a few more in Cityscape and Magic of Incarnum.

[Necomancer]

...This...Even if warlocks are weak this has got to be one of the worst ways of making a class more powerful I've ever seen. You're basicly giving a char free levels and for what reason? They're too weak? Bah. Figure out a way to make the class more powerful without resorting to a funky and completely off the wall home rule.

Honestly I think Warlocks are fine as long as you choose the right incantations to make them not boring. No, they arn't ubber strong one round win casters...And why is this a bad thing?

[Lord Iames Osari]

I never said it was a feat.

A most transparent lie, ET.


Mastery of Shapeing. The feat that allows spell shapeing.

[Jerthanis]

It's more "Hmm, I can take some ranks is forgery even though I never normally would do to not enough skill points".

That's a good enough reason, and the only problem is that I'm fairly sure it's unprecedented... that is, no other class gains bonus skillpoints at certain levels to be used to enhance offshooting skills. It seems like the prevailing mentality over skills is that they take constant practice and training to continue advancing, and branching out means that you'd forever be several ranks behind. The fact that it hasn't really been done makes it difficult to visualize. In other words, "It is a good idea, but unfortunately it is a new idea, therefore we fear it, therefore it must be rejected." -Lothar of the Hill People.



Look at the artificer. It can craft anything better than a warlock and it is better in general then the warlock is.

And it just so happens that the Artificer is one of the most breathtakingly powerful classes around, and is broken even in Eberron which isn't a campaign setting which shouts "balanced" in any way, shape or form. Artificers can do anything full spellcasters can do, two levels earlier. Saying "but Artificers do that better" doesn't mean that it itself isn't good at it.



And crafting everything would put him about 3-4 levels behind the rest of the party.

Perhaps if they crafted everything the players ever got, and magic items were never part of the loot, and the game ran with lots and lots of gold, yes, the Warlock would be 2-3 levels behind the rest of the party. (and thus would affect the party average level, meaning more experience, so the person who has the least would level up very quickly... hmm) However, in my experiences playing heavy crafting oriented wizards, the most the crafter is trailing by is a single level, and even then they catch up again pretty quickly. And if the party was getting that many magic items at half price from the Warlock, that means that the group is at twice their wealth total for their level. Try to compute the effect THAT has on the ECL of the party.

In any case, I think a quick fix approach to a troubled class isn't exactly the best approach to problem solving. Anything less than a multilevel analysis and design is really just cheating yourself and making it difficult to take as a serious interpretation of a class. Reducing it to a 10 level prestige class might be a better solution than reducing it to a 15 level base class with bonus skillpoints for some reason.

[Emperor Tippy]

That's a good enough reason, and the only problem is that I'm fairly sure it's unprecedented... that is, no other class gains bonus skillpoints at certain levels to be used to enhance offshooting skills.
As far as I know its unprecedented.


It seems like the prevailing mentality over skills is that they take constant practice and training to continue advancing, and branching out means that you'd forever be several ranks behind. The fact that it hasn't really been done makes it difficult to visualize. In other words, "It is a good idea, but unfortunately it is a new idea, therefore we fear it, therefore it must be rejected." -Lothar of the Hill People.
I agree. Being new doesn't mean that its a bad idea though.



And it just so happens that the Artificer is one of the most breathtakingly powerful classes around, and is broken even in Eberron which isn't a campaign setting which shouts "balanced" in any way, shape or form. Artificers can do anything full spellcasters can do, two levels earlier. Saying "but Artificers do that better" doesn't mean that it itself isn't good at it.Agreed in all parts. I was merely pointing out that another class does it better.



Perhaps if they crafted everything the players ever got, and magic items were never part of the loot, and the game ran with lots and lots of gold, yes, the Warlock would be 2-3 levels behind the rest of the party.That was the situation that I was responding to. The Warlock crafting every magic item that the party uses.


(and thus would affect the party average level, meaning more experience, so the person who has the least would level up very quickly... hmm) However, in my experiences playing heavy crafting oriented wizards, the most the crafter is trailing by is a single level, and even then they catch up again pretty quickly.That has been my experience as well.


And if the party was getting that many magic items at half price from the Warlock, that means that the group is at twice their wealth total for their level. Try to compute the effect THAT has on the ECL of the party.I've done it before. At level 20 double wealth is approximately equal to LA +5. Every about 130-150K is about +1 LA.


In any case, I think a quick fix approach to a troubled class isn't exactly the best approach to problem solving.Agreed wholeheartedly. I just don't have the time or much of an inclination to rebuild the Warlock and I thought that other people might also want a quick fix to Warlocks.


Anything less than a multilevel analysis and design is really just cheating yourself and making it difficult to take as a serious interpretation of a class.Yeah.


Reducing it to a 10 level prestige class might be a better solution than reducing it to a 15 level base class with bonus skillpoints for some reason.Perhaps. I might actually have to look into that. Cram the 20 levels of Warlock into a 10 level prestige class.


...This...Even if warlocks are weak this has got to be one of the worst ways of making a class more powerful I've ever seen.
Why exactly? I frankly think that they are weak enough that 5 extra levels doesn't overpower them at all.


You're basicly giving a char free levels and for what reason? They're too weak?Yep. They are weak enough to have what amounts to negative LA.


Bah. Figure out a way to make the class more powerful without resorting to a funky and completely off the wall home rule.I really don't feel like rebuilding the class from the ground up. And thats whats needed if you want to bring the warlock up to par.


Honestly I think Warlocks are fine as long as you choose the right incantations to make them not boring.They are horrible underpowered.


No, they arn't ubber strong one round win casters...And why is this a bad thing?Giving them 5 extra levels doesn't make them 1 round wins casters. It frankly keeps them on par with bards, perhaps a bit ahead at ECL 20.


A most transparent lie, ET.

I should have said it better. I was listing different things that allow you to shape spells to exclude certain things.

[Necomancer]

If you don't want to build the class up from where it is then don't bother and accept it as it is. This isn't a solution. Its like trying to slap a band-aid on someone's head when they've just lost their leg. Its just one big silly idea that will, at best, encourage people to take ECL 5 races, and at worst give people more crap to work with when trying to break a game.

I even went over this idea with my DnD group to see what they think...So far its gotten a rousing "WTF?"

[Emperor Tippy]

If you don't want to build the class up from where it is then don't bother and accept it as it is.
But I don't accept it as it is. And I don't have the time to build it from the ground up.


This isn't a solution.
Its a potential one. What do you dislike about it so much? Do you believe that it overpowers the warlock in comparison to the rest of the classes?


Its like trying to slap a band-aid on someone's head when they've just lost their leg.
Not really. If a race is to powerful then it gets an LA which increase its ECL. I'm just saying that if a class is to weak it should get a negative LA. You were fine with giving wizards what amounts to an LA in the "IS this fair?" thread. This is just the opposite. Same idea to balance a class, just reversed.


Its just one big silly idea that will, at best, encourage people to take ECL 5 races,
And that won't really overpower them. Even with being 5 levels ahead the warlock is still weak.


and at worst give people more crap to work with when trying to break a game.
Warlock combined with almost anything is less effective than a non combined other thing.


I even went over this idea with my DnD group to see what they think...So far its gotten a rousing "WTF?"

And I've talked to numerous people and they have said, "it's not great but it does a lot more to bring them up to par than anything else does."

[Shazzbaa]

See, the problem I have with this "potential fix" is that it's a solely mechanical fix. There's no rhyme or reason or method to the madness, merely, "they're too weak, this makes them stronger." Well, I suppose it does, but why are you doing it this way?

Fixes should make sense with the concept of the class. What about warlocks should make them appear to develop faster than other classes? The idea would appear less absurd if there were a good flavour reasoning behind it.

[Rigeld2]

Sure Warlocks are great at crafting (no better than Artificers) but unless you take the 2 level dip in Chameleon, you have to devote lots of feats to it. On top of the feats that you would want to normally take. IIRC Artys get them as class abilities, along with infusions. Thats a huge difference.

[Emperor Tippy]

See, the problem I have with this "potential fix" is that it's a solely mechanical fix.
Yeah. Flavor can come later.


There's no rhyme or reason or method to the madness, merely, "they're too weak, this makes them stronger." Well, I suppose it does, but why are you doing it this way?
Because I don't have the time to rebuild it from the ground up and I have yet to see someone else fix the warlock in a way that I even remotely like and I need to increase the power level of the warlock by next weekend (a player is going to play one and I told him I would fix it so that it can keep up with the rest of the group mechanically).


Fixes should make sense with the concept of the class.
Ideally. Most proposed fixes for most classes don't though.


What about warlocks should make them appear to develop faster than other classes?
Well Warlocks were given their powers by otherworldly forces and perhaps they come with what is akin to an instruction manual.


The idea would appear less absurd if there were a good flavour reasoning behind it.

Prolly. But I wanted an opinion on the mechanical viability of this fix.

[Shazzbaa]

Well, this method feels like a quick fix, that's all I can say. You seem to be comfortable with that, so I guess for your own game go for it; but I wouldn't expect other people to really go for something that feels like it was just a slapped-on bandage... the fact that it's quite plainly a quick fix is probably why you're getting a lot of negative feedback; they will expect it to have more thought put into it, to be more fleshed out.

[Emperor Tippy]

I did put thought into it. And looked at how to break it. And how much it would improve the effectiveness of the warlock.

I like the KISS principle.


But thansk for the comments.

[krossbow]

Well, Conceptually, Hex-blades and Warlocks are very similiar. In addition, prevailing opinion is that hex-blades are underpowered (I don't think they are the worst myself, in that they are great support characters when you have another tank in the party, or when fighting giants or trolls, and certainly better than straight fighter), so how about we try to do something that fixes both?



If a hex-blade no longer gained spells, but instead gained all the warlock abilities, including DR, in addition to hexblade's curse and other abilities, would that be horribly overpowered?

Personally, I think it would flow well.
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[Emperor Tippy]

Perhaps. I haven't looked at Hex-Blade in a long while so I can't really comment on that idea.

Although I am working on cramming Warlock into 10 levels as a prestige class and doubling the number of invocations it give.

[Indoril]

I made some fixes of my own to the warlock, because frankly I love the class, but admittedly at higher levels he lacks. Post suggestions.

Indoril's Warlock Fixes
1)Eldritch Blast Damage Progresses as Follows
Level, Damage
1, 1d10
2, 2d10
5, 3d10
8, 4d10
11, 5d10
14, 6d10
17, 7d10
20, 8d10
+3, +1d10

2)Beyond 20th level, warlocks gain a number of invocations known at a rate of one per two levels (starting with 12 at level 20, 13 at level 22, 14 at 24, and so on).

3)Charisma Bonus is added to Eldritch Blast damage.

4)Eldritch Blast may be used a number of times per round equal to BAB progression.

5)New Feat - Eldritch Metamagic: This feat allows warlocks to take Metamagic feats as if they were arcane casters. Metamagic feats may now be used on Eldritch Blasts and Invocations.

6)New Blast Shape Invocation - Eldritch Bomb: Blast affects all enemies within 20 feet, centered around a target/point within 100 feet of the caster.

7) New Eldritch Essence Invocation - Arcane Mimicry: Least; When the warlock chooses this invocation, he selects a spell from the Sorcerer/Wizard list whose level is less than or equal to half of his warlock level rounded down. He may now use that spell 1/day as a spell-like ability. Caster level = Warlock class level. Save DC's = 10 + Spell Level + Cha modifier. This invocation may be chosen multiple times, for different spells each time or multiple times for one spell. Each time this invocation is chosen for the same spell, the number of times per day it may be used as a spell-like ability increases by 1.

Basically, I compiled a few of the things I saw suggested here and added some of my own thoughts. These fixes give them a muchter range of abilites as well as makes their Eldritch Blasts worth something.

[Dragonmuncher]

Meh. It's thinking-outside-the-box, and it sort of works... but I'd have to agree that it's a little complex for something that shouldn't be that complex.

You could accomplish the same thing by sort of scrunching up the abilities, maybe? Increase the hit die, get some abilities earlier, give a bonus invocation every 3 levels or so?


My favorite warlock fixes (on a purely theoretical basis, since I've never actually used any of them) are 1)Giving warlocks multiple blasts based on BAB and 2)Giving free Blast Shapes/Essences, outside of the Invocation bonuses.

[Indoril]

Well the reason I made it so complex is while early on they rock, in later levels they lack so severely that they needed almost a complete revamp. The fixes I made there actually don't change much for them earlier on, which is good. I aimed at making them viable heavy-hitters and even casters of sorts at later levels.

[Emperor Tippy]

Well here is the Warlock crammed into a 10 level prestige class. I removed all of the item use and crafting parts. I'm also not sure what to make the entry requirements.

HD, Class Skills, and Skill points are the same as the warlock in CAr.

First draft of the entry requirements are as follows:


Skills: Knowledge (Arcana) 13 ranks, Spellcraft 6 ranks,





Must have convinced one of the following to gift you with the powers of a warlock: Pit Fiend, Balor, Solar, or Titan.

OR

You may have inherited the power of the Warlock and if this is the case you must either convince one of the above to unlock it or you must go on a journey of self discovery.


{table]Level|BAB|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|Invocations known|Highest Level Invocation Known
1|0|0|0|2|Eldritch Blast (1d6)|2|Least
2|1|1|1|3|DR 1/Cold Iron, Detect Magic|4|Lesser
3|1|1|1|3|Eldritch Blast (3d6)|6|Lesser
4|2|1|1|4|DR 2/Cold Iron|8|Lesser
5|2|2|2|4|Eldritch Blast (5d6)|10|Greater
6|3|2|2|5|DR 3/Cold Iron, Fiendish Resilence 1|12|Greater
7|3|2|2|5|Eldritch Blast (7d6), Energy Resistance 5|14|Greater
8|4|3|3|6|DR 4/Cold Iron, Fiendish Resilence 3|16|Dark
9|4|3|3|6|Eldritch Blast (9d6), Energy Resistance 10|18|Dark
10|5|3|3|7|DR 5/Cold Iron, Fiendish Resilence 5|20|Dark[/table]

The abilities are exactly as stated in CAr. At 10th level in this class you get 2 Least invocations, 6 Lesser Invocations, 6 Greater Invocations, and 6 Dark invocations.

Thats enough that you can spend half on Eldrith invocations and the other half on utility or you could spend all of them on either.

This class does seem a bit overpowered to me but the RP requirements to get into the class are supposed to be quite harsh.

Well what do you all think? Saves are based on the hellfire warlock except I extrapolated them up to 10 levels. BAB is based on the arcane trickster.

[Everyman]

Your initial idea makes my head go 'splodey, Senor Tippy. I mean no offense, but that's a tad too complicated for any class. No class should have an entirely different leveling system behind it. Tis a bad, bad thing.

From what I can gather, the biggest complaint is that the Warlock can't bring as much to the table as other classes (other than pure damage dealing). Further, people seem to believe that 9d6 a round is pitiful at 20th level...which it sorta is. Granted most warlocks go for the Mantle if they want to do damage (capping at 11d6), but that's still a wee low. As such, we need to decide what amount of damage is acceptable for a CONSTANT blaster at 20th level, then spread that out over the class's levels.

I propose that around 13d6 damage per round is more than enough damage from an endless source, especially from 60 ft away and with the capability of being customized through essences (*cough*vitrolic blast*cough*). I assume that these warlocks would have the greater Mantle by now, so the table only needs to list 11d6 at 20th level. Let's spread this out then...
1st-1d6
3rd-2d6
5th-3d6
7th-4d6
9th-5d6
11th- 6d6
13th-7d6
15th-8d6
17th-9d6
19th-10d6
20th- 11d6
EPIC: Bonus d6 every two levels
(Not pretty, but works for the purposes of discussion)

With damage settled, let's move on to capabilities. In short, what does the warlock bring to the table? Hard to say. It really depends on what invocations a warlock chooses to work with. Since invocations play such a crucial role in shaping the warlock, yet a great amount only exist to alter his pre-existing eldritch blast, I suggest granting one or two bonus essence or shaping invocations known. This way, a warlock can customize his eldritch blast without automatically reducing his remaining options in combat.

As a final design adjustment, I'd like to see a bonus Craft feat given to a warlock when they gain the Imbue Item ability. I despise class features that require a player to spend precious feats to make them useful. Without a Craft feat, Imbue Item collects dust.

In summary, I've kicked up the potential damage 2d6, granted the warlock a bit more versatility, and gave them an automatic role in the party (item crafter). I think it works well.
PS. Just my opinion, though.
PSS. I make these changes with my own limited experiences and observations in mind. I'm no expert...yet.:smallamused:

[Jerthanis]

First draft of the entry requirements are as follows:


Skills: Knowledge (Arcana) 13 ranks, Spellcraft 6 ranks,




Must have convinced one of the following to gift you with the powers of a warlock: Pit Fiend, Balor, Solar, or Titan.


Well what do you all think? Saves are based on the hellfire warlock except I extrapolated them up to 10 levels. BAB is based on the arcane trickster.

Well... the Knowledge (arcana) requirement makes it an entry level 10 PrC minimum, and even then it's only manageable by Bards, Clerics, Monks, Sorcerers and Wizards. Bards give up music progression, spellcasting, saves and base attack to gain ranged capability. Clerics give up Domains, spellcasting, saves, base attack and HP to gain ranged capacity. Monks give up... uh... some of their wackier high level abilities to gain ranged capability and a few simple tricks. Sorcerers and Wizards give up the best levels in the game to gain damage that they've passed up years ago and effects that they can already do as many times per day as you'd really care to do them anyway. So really, the only people who'd benefit would be monks, and even then they'd probably be better off dipping the prestige class only a couple levels.

When you design entry requirements, more so than thinking what "makes sense" for the PrC to require, think more about "what classes at what level should be able to branch into this class?" and for the most part, you want to be able to reach the PrC within 6 ~ 8 levels. Also, if you're going to restrict what classes CAN get into it, make sure you're leaving someone for whom the transition makes sense and which it is mechanically beneficial. Perhaps it'd be a path for Fighter/Sorcerer Gish-es. Perhaps to augment Rogues? Make there be a modest Base attack requirement, some skills that each get, and some solid, worthwhile feats that can either be used by a person within the PrC (Point Blank/Precise shot maybe) and skill ranks in the appropriate skills which each class would have. If intended for Sorcerer/Fighter builds, you could require Precice Shot and Weapon focus: Ray or alternatively Weapon Specialization: Ray (each to emphisize the importance of the fighter levels) and perhaps a skill that the sorcerer gets that the fighter doesn't (like Knowledge: Arcana/Spellcraft)

(getting late... losing... focus... becoming more longwinded even than normal!) So basically, design entry requirements with the expected level that you'd enter it at, and make it possible then, and try to fit that level somewhere around the 6-8 zone.

[McMouse]

Just a quick idea, something inspired by Tharkan's post.

Increase HD to d8, increase skill points to 4+Int per level, allow Medium Armor at 7th level and Heavy Armor at 13th level without chance of failure. Give them an iterative Eldrich Blast at 8th and 15th level, -5 and -10 to-hit respectively, and with an option of targets. Finally, tone up the invocations with an emphasis on "gishing" and some battlefield control, especially dazes, slowing effects, and stuns.

I don't have time to actually fix the invocations, but those are the changes I'd make to make it a viable base class.

[Marius]

I would give them an extra invocation every 3 levels starting at level 3, special abilities/bonus feats every 4 levels starting at level 4 and a extra d6 to the eldrich blast damage every 5 levels starting at level 5.
That should give the warlock a little more power and vertatility.

[Leon]

One mans Fix is anothers Fuz. Its over powered, its under powered - no its not ITS WHAT you you make of it

Have i played a lock - No
Will i play a Lock - maybe some day, i dont think it needs twiddling with
Should you play a lock - not for me to choose what you want (but given the ways people act about it on here its underpowered if its not a Cleric/Druid/Wizard)

[Pegasos989]

One mans Fix is anothers Fuz. Its over powered, its under powered - no its not ITS WHAT you you make of it

Have i played a lock - No
Will i play a Lock - maybe some day, i dont think it needs twiddling with
Should you play a lock - not for me to choose what you want (but given the ways people act about it on here its underpowered if its not a Cleric/Druid/Wizard)

As you told, you have not played one. If you had, you would have noticed how underpowered it is.

People here call cleric/druid/wizard overpowered because we compare them to normal classes. Then we compare warlock to normal classes and call it so underpowered that it is actually worth -5 ECL!

So no, it is not what you make out of it. But well, you seem like a person who would call commoner a good pc class and say "sure it has hd4, poor skills, poor bab and no class abilities but it is all about what you make out of it!"...

[BlueWizard]

I don't like it. Warlock is powerful enough as is. I have a player with an Epic warlock. He is pretty powerful.

[Khantalas]

I don't like it. Warlock is powerful enough as is. I have a player with an Epic warlock. He is pretty powerful.

How did he not die already?

[Bears With Lasers]

I don't like it. Warlock is powerful enough as is. I have a player with an Epic warlock. He is pretty powerful.

Pretty powerful compared to... what?

The reasons that Warlock is weak have been hashed over.

[Pegasos989]

Pretty powerful compared to... what?

The reasons that Warlock is weak have been hashed over.

Compared to non-epic warlock, I presume.

[Bears With Lasers]

Well. I should bloody hope.

[Khantalas]

Epic Fighter: Look at me! I'm uber-powerful compared to a level 1 Fighter. All bow down before my unbalanced awesomeness!

[My name is Wanda]

Why try to make a complicated fix for the warlock when you could do the following?

1. Up the Warlock's HD to d8s.

2. Increase the Warlock's skills per level to 4 or 6 + int. (Note how the Warlock has a stupidly long list of skills, but only 2+int skill points, similar to the Monk in 3.0. Perhaps they did that so that people wouldn't scream Oh noez TEH BROKEN!!! so much when they saw it. The monk's skills per level were fixed in 3.5. so there's no reason not to fix the warlock's.) Personally, I like 6+int skills, but I'm of the opinion that you can never have too many skills.

3. Have the Eldrich blast increase in damage like sneak attack, as opposed to slightly slower. It's easier to keep track of how much damage you should be dealing then anyway.

4. Medium armour proficiency, if you must. I wouldn't, but then again, none of my characters ever wear armour heavier than a chain shirt, because I think it looks ugly.

5. Give warlocks extra invocations known based on their Charisma. You can even use the bonus spells table in the PHB to determine how many they get. I've seen people build perfectly functional warlocks with 8 charisma. It's the warlock's casting stat, so why not make it relevant for ALL warlocks, and not just the ones who choose to take invocations with saving throws?

6. Instead of imbue item, EITHER: Give them bonus feats at wizard levels (5, 10, 15, 20) OR: give them a selection of special abilities at higher levels, similar to a rogue, except more Warlock flavoured. Not everyone likes creating items, and quite frankly, I think that having an item-creating character can interfere with adventures, because you have to have down-time for the character to craft. Sometimes saying "and then we spend a month in Smithport making magic items rather than chasing the BBEG" just makes the excitement seem less... exciting, you know?

7. Maybe give them favoured fortitude saves. It seems to make sense to me, for some reason, but if I were negotiating for warlock bonuses, I wouldn't push the saves as hard as I would the rest.

That's just my two cents, anyway.

[Mauril Everleaf]

this is the aforementioned broken warlock that i play in my dm's campaign. i converted some of the stuff to fit 3.5, but i dont know how to do tables, so i just have things listed as "it does it like this class".



Warlock



HD: d4
BAB: Cleric
Saves: Wizard
Feats: (Probably as a Warlock, go figure)
Exp: Wizard

The Warlock is the most ancient of spellcasters, using neither an innate connection like Sorcerors with Magic nor a scientific approach like Mages, but rather Mana.

Even the most basic of Warlocks can mold runes and glyphs to create spell like effects. Warlocks can also throw blasts of energy torn from the Weave. These blasts depend on the level of the Warlock, but in general do 1d10 + 1/level of the caster.

Warlocks can shape energy into 3 major categories.
-Disruptive: Anti-Magic or Anti-Matter
-Reconstructive: Healing or Repairing
-Transmutative: Alchemy or Shielding

But the majority of a Warlock’s power comes from Mana: his control over ley lines. Warlocks can then shape the raw mana into a spell-like form, with the more difficult the casting, the more mana required.

Total Mana: CHA + 2*Level (personally i prefer WIS, but CHA is standard for Warlocks, so i kept it)

Mana Burn: 1d6+1 magic damage per mana point used
Drain: Damages target 1d4 per mana point and heals warlock the same amount
Elemental Damage: 1d8 elemental damage (not magic) per mana point
Elemental damage can come in the form of a strike (one target), a fan (3 frontal opponents, add 1 mana used) or in AoE (blast* or 30' cone, add 2 mana used)
Generally, a warlock fashions mana to create damaging spell effects.
Domination and illusion effects can be done, but require 2-3X the mana

The most powerful of the Warlock’s ability come from Glyphs, which can be fashioned 1/week every 5 levels. Using a glyph, a Warlock can maximize a spell, negate the need for a saving throw, etc;

Warlocks can also begin to craft Magical items at level 10, after they have a stronghold. Warlocks are the most potent of spellcrafters: By devoting exceptional amounts of mana toward an item, Warlocks can create extremely powerful items.


Warlocks can be of any alignment, but generally they tend toward evil, with the darkest of them belonging to the school of Scholomance (pronounced "show-low-mance").

A Warlock gains power is judged by Ley Lines and his influence over them. Therefore, to advance past level 10, a Warlock MUST build a stronghold.

Mana regeneration: recovery of all mana from resting
Within towns, mana regenerates at a rate of 1pt/city size a turn. Also, Warlocks gain a temporary mana bonus of 10/city size

*Blasts generally are considered to be similar to fireball, with a radius of 5' per mana point of damage. Lightning is treated as as d8 damage per mana point to up to the amount of mana used of opponents. For example, warlock spends 8 mana to do AoE lightning, 2 mana is used to create the AoE, therefore he does 6d8 damage each to 6 opponents.

I told you that this is broken. but its good fodder for a revamp of the warlock. This is all that is written, but my dm always raves about how good warlocks are at summoning stuff (usually demons), but i couldnt figure how to fit that in the mana system. maybe 4 mana to summon, then 1 mana per HD? add some mana for each plane removed from the prime or something, except for creatures from the abyss. i dunno. thoughts?

[krossbow]

This is a fix that I think would work; generally, move the eldrtich blast up slightly to remove the brokenness at low levels, give some good support abilities for later levels. Pretty much, I combine their abilities with that of a hexblade and give them more skills to take advantage of their list.

HD: d6
Skills: 6xlevel
Skill list: same as usual
BAB: same as a cleric.
Weapon, armor prof.: Simple weapons, light armor. The Warlock's curse, eldritch blast and invocations are similar to arcane spells; anything above light armor incurs a spell failure percentage as with normal arcane spells.

1. Warlock's curse 1/day. the warlock may curse an opponent, bringing down malicious luck upon them. Thos affected suffer a -2 to saves and attack and damage rolls. The DC to negate this affect is equal to 10+ 1/2 the warlock's class level + charisma modifier. Using the Warlock's curse is a free action. DR 1/cold iron.
2. Eldritch blast. The warlock may at will fire a blast of arcane energy that travles 60 feet and strikes the target. The warlock must make a ranged touch attack to hit with this attack. If the warlock possess multiple attacks per round, he may full attack with the eldritch blast. The damage is 1d6. First invocation, least.
3. Fiendish state 1/day. The warlock may enter a fiendish state. In this state, he gains fast healing of 2 and the saves for all his abilities increases by 1. The fiendish state lasts for 1 minute.. Warlock's curse 2/day. New invocation
4. Eldritch blast 2d6. Arcane resistacne. The warlock may add his charisma bonus to all saving throws vs. magic. New invocation. Dr 2/cold iron.
5. Mettle. In any case in which a will save or fortitude save would have a lesser effect upon a successful save, this ability negates it totally. New invocation. Warlock's fury. the warlock may add his charisma modifier to damage on all weapon and/or eldritch blast rolls.
6. Eldritch blast 3d6. Fool magic device. The warlock may take 10 on all use magic device checks. Warlock's curse 3/day New invocation (lesser).
7. Greater Warlock's curse. The warlock's curse now increases to -4 to hit, damage and saves. New invocation.
8. Eldritch blast 4d6. Fiendish State 2/day New invocation. Dr 3/cold iron.
9. Warlock's curse 4/day. Aura of unluck 1/day: the warlock may activate this as a free action. For a period equal to 2 + his charisma modifier, all attacks and spells targeted against the warlock have a 20% miss chance. For spells, this chance stacks with any spell failure chance. New invocation.
10. Eldritch blast 5d6. New invocation (greater)
11. Substitute magic device. the warlock may now substitute a use magical device check when making a magic item with a spell that he lacks. New invocation.
12. Eldritch blast 6d6. Curse 5/day. New invocation. Greater Fiendish state. The warlock gains fast healing 4 and spell resistance 10 + HD in his fiendish state. He also retains the +1 to all his saves from before. DR 4/cold iron.
13. Aura of unluck 2/day. New invocation.
14. Eldritch blast 7d6. Fiendish state 3/day. New invocation.
15. Curse 6/day. New invocation (dark).
16. Eldritch blast 8d6. Dire Warlock's curse. The Warlock's curse now increases to -6 on attack and damage rolls and saves. DR 5/cold iron.
17. New invocation. Aura of unluck 3/day.
18. Eldritch blast 9d6. Aura of Woe: The aura of unluck's Miss/failure chance increases to 50%. Curse 7/day.
19. New invocation.
20. Eldritch blast 10d6. DR 6/cold iron. New invocation. Fiendish state 4/day. Dark fiendish state. the Warlock's fiendish state now grants fast healing of 7, and spell resistance equal to 15+10. In addition all the warlock's ability save DC's are increased by 2. The form lasts for 2 minutes.
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[Emperor Tippy]

Well... the Knowledge (arcana) requirement makes it an entry level 10 PrC minimum, and even then it's only manageable by Bards, Clerics, Monks, Sorcerers and Wizards. Bards give up music progression, spellcasting, saves and base attack to gain ranged capability. Clerics give up Domains, spellcasting, saves, base attack and HP to gain ranged capacity. Monks give up... uh... some of their wackier high level abilities to gain ranged capability and a few simple tricks. Sorcerers and Wizards give up the best levels in the game to gain damage that they've passed up years ago and effects that they can already do as many times per day as you'd really care to do them anyway. So really, the only people who'd benefit would be monks, and even then they'd probably be better off dipping the prestige class only a couple levels.
Yeah. It shouldn't be Knowledge (Arcana) but I don't want the class entered before level 10 and I really didn't want to put a 10 HD requirement onto it even if it could make sense.


for the most part, you want to be able to reach the PrC within 6 ~ 8 levels.
I know but I want the earliest that you can enter it to be 10th level. This is a powerful and perhaps overpowered PrC. If you entered it at 5th you would overshadow everyone else for at least 5 levels.


Also, if you're going to restrict what classes CAN get into it, make sure you're leaving someone for whom the transition makes sense and which it is mechanically beneficial. Perhaps it'd be a path for Fighter/Sorcerer Gish-es. Perhaps to augment Rogues? Make there be a modest Base attack requirement, some skills that each get, and some solid, worthwhile feats that can either be used by a person within the PrC (Point Blank/Precise shot maybe) and skill ranks in the appropriate skills which each class would have. If intended for Sorcerer/Fighter builds, you could require Precice Shot and Weapon focus: Ray or alternatively Weapon Specialization: Ray (each to emphisize the importance of the fighter levels) and perhaps a skill that the sorcerer gets that the fighter doesn't (like Knowledge: Arcana/Spellcraft)

(getting late... losing... focus... becoming more longwinded even than normal!)

Yeah. I wrote that up at 2 AM and said that I wasn't sure what the entry requirements should be. I want every class to be able to meet the requirements at level 10 so that they can take the first level at level 11 and they finish it off at level 20.


So basically, design entry requirements with the expected level that you'd enter it at, and make it possible then, and try to fit that level somewhere around the 6-8 zone.
The expected level shouldn't be that low. You can't meet the Hellfire Warlocks entry requirements until level 9 making your first level 10. Entering this class to early is not good.

[Renegade Paladin]

How did he not die already?
DR and all kinds of energy resistance spring to mind.

[Khantalas]

DR and all kinds of energy resistance spring to mind.

And what self respecting enemy doesn't carry a weapon of every material available?

Or sonic spells? :smalltongue:

Well, that's all that Warlock does. Stay alive. And occasionally deal a lucky 18d6 damage. At level 20. Where a wizard already has you bound, shattered and at his mercy.

And I've seen such a wizard.

But the DR and energy resistance is not that great. Fiendish Resilience is what actually kept all Warlocks I've seen alive. Otherwise, they were all dead.

[Pegasos989]

DR and all kinds of energy resistance spring to mind.


"Yay! That charger hit me 70 points of damage but the DR 3 helps!"

Seriously though, I admit that the thing warlocks are good at is staying alive. It is the flying, invisibility, ranged attacks... Just noting that DR has nothing to do with it.

[Toliudar]

I think the warlock is in line with other casters for one reason. I recently allowed someone to read a warlock after carefully reading all the invocations and the class details in the splatbook. They are easily the best at one thing that I can see:

Crafting.

They can fake any spell, even divine spells with a DC 25+ Spell Level for crafting, and they can take 10. This guy's level 9 warlock has a total of +17 use magic device (12 ranks, +5 charisma). Which means in a few levels when we've got some extra downtime, he can craft a wand/scroll of -any- spell, and use it just as easily (activate blindly is only a DC 25 check, after all).


Huh?

So, warlocks can do about what a rogue or bard with a decent charisma can do with crafting. And that's even if you ignore the following rule (emphasis mine) from the SRD:


Creating Wands

The creator must have prepared the spell to be stored (or must know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any focuses the spell requires.

A warlock crafting a scroll makes NO sense to me, because in order to craft it, he'd need the source spell - presumably, supplied on a scroll.

[Bears With Lasers]

Um, Tol, Warlocks can explicitly ignore that rule.

[Nerd-o-rama]

That's the whole point of the ability.

And Warlocks are low-powered, but not to the point of unplayability. It can be useful, but not necessary, to give them a boost, particularly a better hit die or skill points.

[krossbow]

A better hit-die won't help them. the warlock's problems is that all he's good at is staying alive. So to fix this... we make him stay alive longer? It doesn't matter that you can stay alive and suck, if you can't do anything else.

More skills IMO is a good idea though, as it makes them rougish, I.E., more useful.

[TheOOB]

Last I checked it's not the warlocks that have problums, but rather the overpowered spellcasters that makes the warlock weak by comparison.

Also, it would make a lot more sense mechanically to rewrite the warlock class to get abilities faster then to give "bonus levels" which don't really work on a rules stand point.

[Blinkbear]

In a campaign I am playing a warlock in, my DM allowed me to make a special UMD check to use wands without spending a charge. That is not much for in combat use. But for out of combat use it's not that bad, e.g. CLW-Wand, 750 golds, endless use, heal up everybody after combat. He also has other low-level wands, they are not that expensive and it is "all you can wand-wield" instead of 50 charges per wand. I like it, though I am not sure if it is what is really needed to make this class better. It *does* fit my concept - my character LOVES magic items.

[Emperor Tippy]

No comments on turning it into a prestige class?

[Neo]

I think people would rather it be kept as a working base class than a prestige class.

[Mauril Everleaf]

agreed, it needs to stay base class.

my thoughts are that more skill points, more invocations wouldnt be bad, but i also think that upping the damage on its eldritch blast to a d8, rather than a d6. because they are primarily a blaster caster (at least this is how ive seen them played in 3.5) they need to be better at what they do.

[Jinnai]

IMO raise the base damage from 6 to 8 or 10 (imo 10), but keep the rate the same. Early on that means the warlock is going to be a good damage dealer especially, but after a bit he still slows down especially as his rate of damage increase is lowered. So instead of at lvl 20 9d6 (avg 28) damage he'd do 9d8 (avg 37) or 9d10 (avg 46). Maybe if you think that's too much for level 1 it should increase from d6 as they level as well. An average 46 damage is still on the low side, but not rediculously so.

They still need some new invocations and spell shapes. Maybe a few more inovations as well. 11 by level 20 is just too few.

Anyway a new spell shape i had in mind:

Blast Shape Invocation - Eldritch Force Wave: Blast affects everyone within 30 feet, centered around the warlock.

[Khantalas]

Blast Shape Invocation - Eldritch Force Wave: Blast affects everyone within 30 feet, centered around the warlock.

Eldritch Doom does the same thing on a smaller scale, IIRC. And it's a dark invocation.

[krossbow]

I think that the d6 to d8 change needs to happen gradually, so as he's not even more powerful at low levels. The problem with the warlock is he starts out smoking too much, and then pretty much doesn't gain anything new. To start out at d8's would make him too powerful at level 3 (2d8 ranged touch is a bit much for a level 3 character).


Heres what I think would be best:

level 6: d6>d8
level 12: d8>d10
level 18: d10>d12

Also, add a greater invocation that lets them full-attack with their eldritch blast. I think making it an invocation would work best, as I don't think full attacking with an eldritch cone or such would be balanced.

In addition, a gradual increase in the die would make the damage increase a curve, not a straight line, which is needed. The fact of D&D is that after level 6, power turns into a curve line for most classes, increasing at larger and larger rates each level. This is why the fighter and warlock suck; they have straight lines, so they are great at low levels, but bad at high.

[Mauril Everleaf]

agreed. i was just thinking high level warlock, and forgot about low level warlock. the dice progression seems good. can i assume that epic level warlocks could start using a d20 as damage? (egads! no one uses a d20 for damage! they are only for chace rolls!)

as a tangent, would there be a possibility of modifying the fighter to deal damage on a curve rather than straight line? we probably would need a new thread for that though. i would start one, but the only idea i have for that is stupid and wouldnt really make sense.

[krossbow]

I think the best way to do that is to take arcana evolved's warmain view: Introduce "combat rites" (essentially, moves that when used help you execute an attack or move, like grappling, disarming, tripping, charging, sneak attack, ect.) and give them to him past level 6 or so. You get a few per day like spells, ect., except you can trade three level 1's for 1 level 2 combat rite, three level 2's for one level 3, ect. since they are just using up personal endurance and wouldn't make sense to not be stuck as if you prepared them.

[The_Snark]

In a campaign I am playing a warlock in, my DM allowed me to make a special UMD check to use wands without spending a charge. That is not much for in combat use. But for out of combat use it's not that bad, e.g. CLW-Wand, 750 golds, endless use, heal up everybody after combat. He also has other low-level wands, they are not that expensive and it is "all you can wand-wield" instead of 50 charges per wand. I like it, though I am not sure if it is what is really needed to make this class better. It *does* fit my concept - my character LOVES magic items.

Works fine in the campaign, and it does fit the warlock's unlimited abilities concept, but you're right, it isn't a generic warlock fix.

What the warlock really needs is more invocations to select from (and maybe some more known). As it stands, there aren't all that many choices. An invocation allowing iterative eldritch blasts is a good idea, too. And skill points aren't a bad idea either.

I don't think the class should really be compared to a caster of any sort; it's more like a ranged fighter with several magical tricks. When you look at it more like that, it's a decent class, but it could use a boost, particularly at the later levels, when eldritch blast damage starts falling behind.

[Mauril Everleaf]

i like that opinion. if you consider it a fighter-type class, it seems less weak. doesnt make it not weak compared to other classes, but puts it in perspective. i think most of us are in agreement that more skill points would be good, but how many more? im bad at making things balanced, i just know when they are too far one way or the other.

[Velvet Elvis]

krossbow - Superficially, as I haven't read the Arcana Evolved material, what you're talking about sounds rather a lot like the Martial Adept concept (Tome of Battle). I.e. limited use-per-encounter moves to augment base attack forms.

All - By the way, what do you guys think about a Warlock heading into the Eldritch Theurge or Eldritch Disciple (Complete Mage) in terms of bringing a character predicated on the Warlock class up to snuff with its buddies by the middle of a 20 level run? I'm not saying it does that, just wondering what more experienced people think about the "end" product of these PrC's.

[Bears With Lasers]

Eldritch Theurge is pretty bad. Eldritch Disciple is pretty good--combine Eldritch Glaive (Dragon Magic) and the Disciple's healing blast ability FThealingW.

[Pegasos989]

I don't think the class should really be compared to a caster of any sort; it's more like a ranged fighter with several magical tricks. When you look at it more like that, it's a decent class, but it could use a boost, particularly at the later levels, when eldritch blast damage starts falling behind.


Yeah, it is a ranged fighter. However, a poor in that. What does eldritch blast do at high levels? 9d8 or something? With the, let's say 6 attacks (4 bab, 1 speed weapon/haste, 1 rapid shot. There could propably be a lot more but I don't play much archers) of a ranged fighter and assuming half of those hit, it would mean that high level archer does 3d8 (average 13.5) per hit. Which is really, really low.

We could go as far as giving them extra EB based on BAB. (I know that some of you think that "What if someone multiclasses 4 levels to full bab class for 4 attacks!" but actually, due to the lost dice from EB, it helps next to not at all). However, this with the invocations combined would be too strong. So maybe creating an invocation letting you make extra EBs on full attack? Letting them get 3 EBs at higher levels if they can't apply other stuff to it isn't really all that overpowered.

[Bears With Lasers]

Eldritch Glaive, a blast shape invocation from Dragon Magic, already lets then make a number of attacks with their blast equal to the number of iterative attacks they'd get from BAB, but it's as with a reach weapon, so at 10'; the Glaive lingers until your next turn so that you can make AoOs with it, though.

[Velvet Elvis]

You're not saying the Eldritch Theurge is bad because it can't cast a healing blast, are you? That can't be all, since that's a rather inappropriate means of comparison.

Eldritch Glaive can be taken by an ET, as well, so, what if your party has a cleric or other healer already? You have any comments on why the ET is bad by itself?

[Bears With Lasers]

No, the Eldritch Theurge is bad because it requires losing more caster/invocation levels than Eldritch Disciple, and because even twenty levels of Warlock would barely compensate the wizard for three lost caster levels.

[Velvet Elvis]

Hmmm.... I have to agree. I don't quite understand the issue behind requiring two more Warlock levels for one as opposed to the other when the ED increases in the various eldritch/warlock-ish aspects as well as the ET. Granted, ET focuses more on those aspects, but it still seems to be a rather large difference.

[God_of_Luck]

What do you think?

Feat: Eldritch Focus

Prerequisite
Warlock level 6th

Benefit
You can only take this feat in a level where you would gain an invocation. Instead you don't learn an invocation and the dice of your Eldritch Blast invocation changes from d6 to d8.

[Rigeld2]

Just make it an invocation of the right type. No reason to make them spend a feat on it.

[Nerd-o-rama]

How about

Powerful Blast
Eldritch Essence
Lesser; 3rd (eyeballed this, could use adjusting)

This invocation causes your Eldritch Blast to deal a number of d8's in damage equal to the number of d6's it would normally.

As an Eldritch Essence, you can't use it in conjunction with any of the status effects or negative level stuff, but you can still shape it (Spear, Cone, Glaive, Doom, etc.).

Say, how about giving Warlocks a bonus feat every five levels? The list would include at least Meta-Spell-like Ability feats, Item Creation Feats, and Extra Invocation.

[Mauril Everleaf]

if you do powerful blast (which i like) you should also include something like devastating blast which would up all dice to a d10. make it great (or whatever the level above lesser is) and require that powerful blast be taken or something (or maybe not, just have it be a better version).

[Sundog]

If, as the problem seems to be, that the Warlock does not do enough damage, perhaps simply allowing a number of Eldritch Blasts equal to his number of attacks (as per BAB) would help?

[God_of_Luck]

Sundog, the Eldritch Glaive does that.

[Thrawn183]

I think that the d6 to d8 change needs to happen gradually, so as he's not even more powerful at low levels. The problem with the warlock is he starts out smoking too much, and then pretty much doesn't gain anything new. To start out at d8's would make him too powerful at level 3 (2d8 ranged touch is a bit much for a level 3 character).


Heres what I think would be best:

level 6: d6>d8
level 12: d8>d10
level 18: d10>d12

Also, add a greater invocation that lets them full-attack with their eldritch blast. I think making it an invocation would work best, as I don't think full attacking with an eldritch cone or such would be balanced.

In addition, a gradual increase in the die would make the damage increase a curve, not a straight line, which is needed. The fact of D&D is that after level 6, power turns into a curve line for most classes, increasing at larger and larger rates each level. This is why the fighter and warlock suck; they have straight lines, so they are great at low levels, but bad at high.

I think this may be the best I have seen so far. I was wondering how to fix the whole iterative attacks thing, but this looks like it would do it quite neatly. (the only remaining problem is I think the whole survivability thing is a little weak, but then again I always think PC DR and such is too low ( particularly on classes like barbarians))

[Mauril Everleaf]

if survivability seems low for you, up their hd to a d6. solves that problem right away. doesnt make them over powered, but makes them considerably less squishy.

[The_Snark]

Sundog, the Eldritch Glaive does that.

But requires you to be very close, which reduces survivability by a lot at high levels.


if survivability seems low for you, up their hd to a d6. solves that problem right away. doesnt make them over powered, but makes them considerably less squishy.

It already is a d6.

And I don't think survivability is much of a problem—it seems like the majority of warlock invocations are geared towards defense anyway. Invisibility, flying, darkness, wall of flame, that one that allows you to take the shape of a swarm... yeah.

[illathid]

In my game, I house ruled that warlocks could make iterative eldritch blasts, but each subsequent attack would have a -2d6 penalty to damage and a -2 penalty to the save DC of any essence used with it.

[Sundog]

Sundog, the Eldritch Glaive does that.

Ah. Sorry, I don't have Complete Mage.

[Mauril Everleaf]

I thought they were a d4 HD. Guess I should look stuff up before opening my mouth, er, um.... I mean, using my fingers to type the words in my head.