OOTS #920 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Lord Raziere]

V finally admits it. good for her, I guess.

an Roy is still too reasonably stubborn, hrm.

any bets on Elan accidentally falling in and proving that it doesn't destroy souls by splashing around in the ocean go "help me! I can't swim!"

[pluizig]

I'm proud of you too, V :smallsmile:

[Anarion]

There's a typo in panel 2. V says "effortess" instead of "effortless."

The final panel of this comic is so great. V's face is incredible and I totally empathize with that feeling from time to time.

[Shale]

V......sort of admits it, I guess. "I did some stuff I'm ashamed of," doesn't have quite the same oomph as "I sold my soul to fiends and then wiped out the people guarding this gate," but it's a start. With luck there'll be time for the full long-winded explanation later.

[Magnasword2]

Whoa front page and looks like "Jump into the rift" Is off the table while Roy suffers from a critical case of common sense. Ah well maybe next time XD

[JSSheridan]

Thanks Giant!

[zimmerwald1915]

V finally admits it.
Where do you see that? The closest she comes is panel six, and that's nowhere near specific enough to be an admission to anything. What's more, she's being vague on purpose. The number of ellipses scattered throughout the panel is enough to show that.

EDIT: ninja'd by Shale.

[Fish]

That seems to rule out the Rift as an escape route, for now.

[Forrestfire]

I wonder if Roy will bring up the issue later.

[Ionbound]

And V still manages to avoid talking about the IFCC. :smallsigh: Not as proud as I'd hoped to be.

[Forikroder]

V......sort of admits it, I guess. "I did some stuff I'm ashamed of," doesn't have quite the same oomph as "I sold my soul to fiends and then wiped out the people guarding this gate," but it's a start. With luck there'll be time for the full long-winded explanation later.

middle of the battle not a ood place for details


Where do you see that? The closest she comes is panel six, and that's nowhere near specific enough to be an admission to anything.

Vs smart enough to realise this is not the place to go into a 3 day discussion about his actions, the last thing she wants is to cause a falling out or otherwise massively distract Greenhilt from the task at hand

[mattie_p]

And once again, V does not get to explain, at least in full. I won't consider it finished until s/he admits to familicide. But the first step is necessary. And it probably should not be done in battle.

[Endon the White]

Wow! I'm so proud of Vaarsuvius. It's great to see her take responsibility for her actions. Maybe redemption isn't as far off as she thinks...

[JennTora]

Where do you see that? The closest she comes is panel six, and that's nowhere near specific enough to be an admission to anything.

EDIT: ninja'd by Shale.

It's enough of a confession for the middle of a huge-ass fight.

Also ninja'd.

[internisus]

A good effort by V. It didn't change their tactical situation, and she certainly has important details left to disclose, especially since the IFCC can detain her again in the future, but I appreciated this beat.

[zimmerwald1915]

And once again, V does not get to explain, at least in full.
What "doesn't get"? She had time to come clean in full if she wanted, as shown by the two long gaps in her spiel. She chose to keep concealing things, and chose her words very carefully to make it seem like she was confessing when in fact she was saying nothing at all. And it worked, at least on Blackwing and probably on a number of forumites.


I won't consider it finished until s/he admits to familicide.
Omayn.

[Cavelcade]

Well, V hasn't explained it all, but V's getting there! Roy's still being clever I see.

[Anarion]

Wow! I'm so proud of Vaarsuvius. It's great to see her take responsibility for her actions. Maybe redemption isn't as far off as she thinks...

It's the first step on a thousand-mile journey, but sure, it might be closer than we thought compared to not taking that step.

[Ilerien]

Well, V's timing still leaves something to be desired. But that's certainly progress.

Upd: Whoa, first page. Sorry, couldn't resist the temptation.

[Argok]

We need more Blackwing. Such a nice little bird. One day the order will readmit to his existence

[Turgon9357]

Still holding out for a splash panel/page of the order jumping into the rift for the end of the book.

[Liliet]

NO ENTERING THE RIFT THIS BOOK.

I really hope no-one will suggest it anymore...

nah, wishful thinking.

[Anarion]

What "doesn't get"? She had time to come clean in full if she wanted, as shown by the two long gaps in her spiel. She chose to keep concealing things, and chose her words very carefully to make it seem like she was confessing when in fact she was saying nothing at all. And it worked, at least on Blackwing and probably on a number of forumites.

You don't think Roy would inquire into details at a time and place more appropriate to do so? Give him a little credit until proven otherwise.

[Sunken Valley]

Art keeps getting better. I realise this is one year after the thumb. If this and 819 aren't 100%, it's very close.

[Dante2001]

V still needs to tell the rest of his murders

[The Giant]

I knew there was going to be a problem somehow.

V not going into more details is a concession to Roy effectively saying, "Why are we talking about this right now?" The point is that Roy now knows that there is something that happened that V hasn't told him.

Or, from a meta point of view, the point is that I don't need to spend three pages talking about this right in the middle of a battle scene just to show that V has decided to tell Roy at the first possible opportunity.

[Solara]

Noticed a couple of typos, 'glamered' and 'effortess'.

And I'm so proud of V! :smallbiggrin:

...for knowing when NOT to spend an entire strip blabbing, oh yeah also for that whole confession thing.

[hamishspence]

It's a first step- but we'll have to see what happens when V comes clean completely.

[zimmerwald1915]

You don't think Roy would inquire into details at a time and place more appropriate to do so? Give him a little credit until proven otherwise.
If he does do that, it'll be a credit to Roy. But it won't be a credit to V.

[JennTora]

What "doesn't get"? She had time to come clean in full if she wanted, as shown by the two long gaps in her spiel. She chose to keep concealing things, and chose her words very carefully to make it seem like she was confessing when in fact she was saying nothing at all. And it worked, at least on Blackwing and probably on a number of forumites.


Omayn.

Because the middle of a fight is just the perfect place to confess to your lawful good leader that you performed what may be the most evil act in history. Wonder if this'll get ninja'd too...

Edit: Yep. By the Giant no less.

[Venedlor]

Came out of hiding to say that this was well written. Keep it up!

[iTookUrNick]

Too little too late, V. Not proud, but willing to be proven wrong.

Also, not in the rift. Hints are getting heavier by the page that the option is not on the table...

[Forikroder]

What "doesn't get"? She had time to come clean in full if she wanted, as shown by the two long gaps in her spiel. She chose to keep concealing things, and chose her words very carefully to make it seem like she was confessing when in fact she was saying nothing at all. And it worked, at least on Blackwing and probably on a number of forumites.


Omayn.
there in an extremely dangerous situation, to cause unnecesary problems could lead to a TPK

[zql]

wasn't Durkon carrying the flying carpet?

edit: oh no, now I see
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0849.html

[Ran Cossack]

V finally admits it. good for her, I guess.When I read that, I wondered "Okay, how will the 'V regrets nothing' crowd rationalize away that?" And then I read a few more lines and there was the answer. ;)

I forgot what Shojo said about the rift ensaring souls. :smallredface: Glad Roy didn't.

[CoffeeIncluded]

Good job, V! Though that still doesn't explain the worst bit, it's definitely a start!

Also, loving the casual conversation while stabbing things.

[FlawedParadigm]

Well, at least that obstacle is partly cleared, regarding V. We'll see what happens when V actually gets to the details.

[Psyren]

Obviously V will explain it in full once Haley and Elan are inside the ring of fire and the whole party can pass judgment (or more likely, not.) So we should all chill until that happens I say.



Also, loving the casual conversation while stabbing things.

Talking is (still) a free action :smalltongue:

[zimmerwald1915]

V not going into more details is a concession to Roy effectively saying, "Why are we talking about this right now?" The point is that Roy now knows that there is something that happened that V hasn't told him.

Or, from a meta point of view, the point is that I don't need to spend three pages talking about this right in the middle of a battle scene just to show that V has decided to tell Roy at the first possible opportunity.
Okay, so the intent was to show V making herself available to confess, but Roy not being available to listen. That being the case, why not have Roy cut V off in panel seven, instead of the other way 'round?

[Shale]

Noticed a couple of typos, 'glamered' and 'effortess'.

And I'm so proud of V! :smallbiggrin:

...for knowing when NOT to spend an entire strip blabbing, oh yeah also for that whole confession thing.

"Glamer" is an actual, though archaic, word (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/glamer). "Effortess" is not a female effort, though.

[mattie_p]

What "doesn't get"? She had time to come clean in full if she wanted, as shown by the two long gaps in her spiel. She chose to keep concealing things, and chose her words very carefully to make it seem like she was confessing when in fact she was saying nothing at all. And it worked, at least on Blackwing and probably on a number of forumites.

This is downright succinct for Vaarsuvius. V said as much as possible while fending off an army, setting up the conversation to resume at a later time frame. That's why I called it a first step.

[Thokk_Smash]

Sometimes, you have to make time for what's important. And that information is probably the most important bit that V's ever known.

But Roy's being properly cautious about it, especially since he's in a pitched battle where they could very well die. One thing at a time.

And Blackwing is great. :smallbiggrin:

[Anarion]

Okay, so the intent was to show V making herself available to confess, but Roy not being available to listen. That being the case, why not have Roy cut V off in panel seven, instead of the other way 'round?

Because the way V did it, it caused Roy to turn around and explain himself, which included why they're not going through the rift. And that needs to be done now to explain why the battle will progress as it does, whereas the long explanation from V doesn't need to be done now.

Also, if Roy asks questions later, it is very much a credit to V. V knows Roy is smart and that Roy will probably question in detail as long as V puts "I did a bad thing that caused us some problems here" on the table for Roy to be aware of.

[Shale]

Okay, so the intent was to show V making herself available to confess, but Roy not being available to listen. That being the case, why not have Roy cut V off in panel seven, instead of the other way 'round?

Roy does cut her off. Instead of letting V continue, or asking "what actions are you talking about?" he says "why are we talking about this now?", which is a pretty strong hint from the party commander to stop talking and start spellcasting.

I don't blame V for not confessing the whole truth here, exactly, but it hasn't happened yet. So I'm also not giving credit for coming clean.

[chorpler]

Noticed a couple of typos, 'glamered' and 'effortess'.


Isn't "glamer" and "glamered" just how it's spelled in D&D? Like, look here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicArmor.htm) in the Table: Armor Special Abilities. The first Special Ability is "Glamered" and links to this description (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicArmor.htm#glamered) of the ability.

[Forikroder]

Okay, so the intent was to show V making herself available to confess, but Roy not being available to listen. That being the case, why not have Roy cut V off in panel seven, instead of the other way 'round?

becuase Roy was raised with manners >:(

[bguy]

I was kind of surprised by V's non-reaction to Roy mentioning that Durkon was now undead. Did V already know that Durkon had been turned into a vampire?

[WindStruck]

Anyone else find it odd they're talking about escaping and then Roy stabs a dinosaur right in the neck? I wonder if they could captures some of them and ride out? Maybe do it with a few of the flying ones instead?

[hamishspence]

I was kind of surprised by V's non-reaction to Roy mentioning that Durkon was now undead. Did V already know that Durkon had been turned into a vampire?

V's been watching recent events on the IFCC's screen.

[Jane_Doe]

My idle first impression: Something will soon prompt V to step into the portal to establish whether or not its purported soul-eating properties are, in fact, extant.

Probable reasoning for this impression: This comic established that they've no means for escape other than the rift, which Roy considers more dangerous than dying unless such capability is conclusively disproven. He also seemed to lack a good idea for a new strategy to employ. There's enough hints that someone might show up that intercession by a third party would be reasonable, but it strikes me as improbable. V is already feeling extremely guilty and in a self-sacrificing mood, while she presumably considers the risk an improbable one, given her information... But admittedly rather severe if she's wrong. Given these facts, it seems the above impression seems a reasonable expectation.

Of course, "reasonable" is hardly "airtight". There's still several dozen other possibilities, and this was hardly an exhaustive analysis, merely a justification of a first impression.

[Shale]

I was kind of surprised by V's non-reaction to Roy mentioning that Durkon was now undead. Did V already know that Durkon had been turned into a vampire?

V could see on the fiends' TV everything that happened between the IFCC calling in its debt and Sabine throwing the couch. That includes Durkon being Malack's thrall, and then being freed and rejoining the order, even though the actual biting incident happened earlier.

[zimmerwald1915]

Also, if Roy asks questions later, it is very much a credit to V. V knows Roy is smart and that Roy will probably question in detail as long as V puts "I did a bad thing that caused us some problems here" on the table for Roy to be aware of.
Roy expects not to survive this encounter. He's talking about "making stands" and choosing to disregard a possible - though not really a plausible - escape route. V has heard all these statements from Roy, so she should know he's not really thinking in terms of post-battle debriefings. Roy is also aware of the possibility that he won't see V in the afterlife, and said as much after the trial in Azure City. V, meanwhile, believes she is going to Hell and has no reason to believe the same for Roy. She should know that this might be her last opportunity to tell him anything.


Roy does cut her off. Instead of letting V continue, or asking "what actions are you talking about?" he says "why are we talking about this now?", which is a pretty strong hint from the party commander to stop talking and start spellcasting.
Roy doesn't cut her off. He lets her complete her sentence, then hesitates, then tentatively says he's not really available to listen to V. V then cuts Roy off mid-sentence, demanding to be heard. She is dominating the conversation. From this I inferred that she could have told Roy anything she wanted, at least spoken it out loud even if Roy wasn't really listening. Per the Giant, I inferred incorrectly...but why was it so easy?

[Liliet]

Seriously... V is fully aware of vir overly long-winded manner of speech.

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/VaarsuviusNew.pngGeneral, you may have noticed that my explanations tend to consume more time than my plans themselves. Given that time is a factor, I simply say that it is imperative that you not send any more troops into the breach now.

This explanation can certainly break the "talking is a free action" rule, V has managed it once (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0186.html) and now is certainly not the best time to repeat that feat.

V chose the words like ve usually does, but they did include words "embarassed" and "shockingly poor moral character" that V never before applied to virself.

And I don't think that the separate ovals are an indication of long pauses, they are just an indication of limited free space on the panel and just how verbose V is.

[Carth]

What's going on with Blackwing in the last couple panels?

[Kislath]

Do you think that the rest of the party will really be all that upset over it?

Killing black dragons is what heroes DO. Wiping out a whole bunch of them who personally threatened V's family is just an exercise in efficiency. V's only mistake was in forgetting that dragons and humans can hybridize.

As for odd words in the dictionary, Glamer is still in it, and now they've added Twerk. "Amulet" has been removed, though. Can you believe that? Is the dictionary really so dull that it has to cut out perfectly good words to make room for stupid new ones?

[jidasfire]

Roy expects not to survive this encounter. He's talking about "making stands" and choosing to disregard a possible - though not really a plausible - escape route. He is also aware of the possibility that he won't see V in the afterlife, and said as much after the trial in Azure City. V has heard all these statements from Roy, so she should know that he's not really thinking in terms of post-battle debriefings. She should know that this might be her last opportunity to tell him anything.


Roy doesn't cut her off. He lets her complete her sentence, then hesitates, then tentatively says he's not really available to listen to V. V then cuts Roy off mid-sentence, demanding to be heard. She is dominating the conversation. From this I inferred that she could have told Roy anything she wanted, at least spoken it out loud even if Roy wasn't really listening.

Good grief, we get it, you think Vaarsuvius is the worst character in all of history and nothing will convince you otherwise, even in the face of the very author's refutations. Start a blog already.

[Wolv90]

I love that every strip, just when you swear they are about to jump into the rift, they decide not to. Brilliant writing.

[Apricot]

Seriously... V is fully aware of vir overly long-winded manner of speech.

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/VaarsuviusNew.pngGeneral, you may have noticed that my explanations tend to consume more time than my plans themselves. Given that time is a factor, I simply say that it is imperative that you not send any more troops into the breach now.

This explanation can certainly break the "talking is a free action" rule, V has managed it once (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0186.html) and now is certainly not the best time to repeat that feat.

V chose the words like ve usually does, but they did include words "embarassed" and "shockingly poor moral character" that V never before applied to virself.

And I don't think that the separate ovals are an indication of long pauses, they are just an indication of limited free space on the panel and just how verbose V is.

Is that a pronoun carefully selected to contain equal proportions of his, her, and V? I'm impressed.

To me, the separate ovals seem to be mostly just standard breaks in text walls. Dividing up thoughts makes things much easier to digest.

All this aside, we now have a clear answer on the rift, and a not-so-clear answer on how the Order's going to escape this little entanglement.

[The Giant]

Okay, so the intent was to show V making herself available to confess, but Roy not being available to listen. That being the case, why not have Roy cut V off in panel seven, instead of the other way 'round?

Because Roy is the one who was pre-occupied with killing a dinosaur rider at the time, so he just lets V ramble a bit until that's dealt with. But for V, this is the most important thing happening right now.

Or because the information that V is saying is important to the story and needs to be given to the reader while the information Roy is saying is just a general platitude about, "Well that's nice and all, but I don't think it's prudent to be discussing this in the middle of a pitched battle." The sense of which can be gleaned after the first few words, so it saves speech balloon space and reminds us that V is generally more impatient than Roy.

Or because I just didn't worry about it too much because the readers such as yourself who will never be pleased with anything Vaarsuvius ever does ever again will always find something to hang their hat on, so I'm not writing for them or their level of dialogue dissection.

Pick one.

[Forikroder]

Roy expects not to survive this encounter. He's talking about "making stands" and choosing to disregard a possible - though not really a plausible - escape route. He is also aware of the possibility that he won't see V in the afterlife, and said as much after the trial in Azure City. V has heard all these statements from Roy, so she should know that he's not really thinking in terms of post-battle debriefings. She should know that this might be her last opportunity to tell him anything.

even if its the last doesnt mean its the best

its possible that Roy knowing about Familicide would upset him enough to jepordize there ability to deal with the current scenario which is unforgivable


Roy doesn't cut her off. He lets her complete her sentence, then hesitates, then tentatively says he's not really available to listen to V. V then cuts Roy off mid-sentence, demanding to be heard. She is dominating the conversation. From this I inferred that she could have told Roy anything she wanted, at least spoken it out loud even if Roy wasn't really listening.

good thing Vs smart enough to understand theres a time and place for everything and to explain such a complicated scenario requires a willing listiner

furthermore Roy gives V and order, its either "ignore the order, jepordize everyones life to get something off her chest" or "obey the order work to keep the order alive and then talk"

V can always keep trying after following Roys order

[Apricot]

What's going on with Blackwing in the last couple panels?

To the best of my understanding, he's continuing his role as moral compass and reality check. The "I'm so proud of you" comes from the honest acknowledgement that V owning up to mistakes is a step forward, and the thick sarcasm comes from the fact that just saying you did something doesn't mean everything's forgiven.

[hamishspence]

Do you think that the rest of the party will really be all that upset over it?

Killing black dragons is what heroes DO. Wiping out a whole bunch of them who personally threatened V's family is just an exercise in efficiency. V's only mistake was in forgetting that dragons and humans can hybridize.

V seems to feel there's more to the issue than this- the possibility of there being dragons that are not "ravenous killers" seems to be of some importance to V:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0866.html

[Wolv90]

Where do you see that? The closest she comes is panel six, and that's nowhere near specific enough to be an admission to anything. What's more, she's being vague on purpose. The number of ellipses scattered throughout the panel is enough to show that.

EDIT: ninja'd by Shale.

Well, if she did Roy's logic might be useful. He admits that bodily death is not a concern if the loss of a soul is at risk? He might be the most understanding of V's decision. Unless V talks about the alternative solution that would have worked just as well that we see here, http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0634.html

[sengmeng]

I knew there was going to be a problem somehow.

V not going into more details is a concession to Roy effectively saying, "Why are we talking about this right now?" The point is that Roy now knows that there is something that happened that V hasn't told him.

Or, from a meta point of view, the point is that I don't need to spend three pages talking about this right in the middle of a battle scene just to show that V has decided to tell Roy at the first possible opportunity.

I know I interpreted V's line in panel 7 to be aimed at the forum as well as Roy.

Great comic!

[shadowpriest]

Brillant, Mr. Burlew. Thanks for this strip. Vaarsuvius did need to be sincere.

[elros]

I like how the Giant set things up. In many cases, I could predict the next step because the author is unoriginal. here, I am not certain what will happen, but I feel confident that whatever does will make sense because the Giant took the time to create the environment. All in all good storytelling.

[Adamo Veritas]

I personally find the flames in the background to be very eye-catching. Visually, I think this may be one of my favorite scenes in the whole comic, at least in recent memory. There is something about the sight of flames that are beautiful, and I think The Giant captured it stunningly.

Thank you Giant for the best comic on the inter-tubes!

[Liliet]

Roy expects not to survive this encounter. He's talking about "making stands" and choosing to disregard a possible - though not really a plausible - escape route. V has heard all these statements from Roy, so she should know he's not really thinking in terms of post-battle debriefings. Roy is also aware of the possibility that he won't see V in the afterlife, and said as much after the trial in Azure City. V, meanwhile, believes she is going to Hell and has no reason to believe the same for Roy. She should know that this might be her last opportunity to tell him anything.

Dying I can handle. Not that. Not while Xykon is still there.
If Roy were planning on ending their mission here, why would he even mention Xykon?

Sure, the living have a good chance of not surviving the battle, but if they don't get disintegrated immediately, they can be resurrected later by Durkon who is now all but invincible (of course, Tarquin and Co can choose to intervene... but they also can choose not to).

Every battle carries a risk of not surviving it, which you seem to forget. It is less so in DnD, which is governed with the numbers that do not allow the lvl 1 warrior to one-shot lvl 15+ fighter even on crit. But overall, battle is always risk. Perhaps some more of it here, but there's still hope. This situation is not that different from Azure city siege, for example, where Roy DID die, or battling the YABD when V just got extremely lucky.



Roy doesn't cut her off. He lets her complete her sentence, then hesitates, then tentatively says he's not really available to listen to V. V then cuts Roy off mid-sentence, demanding to be heard. She is dominating the conversation. From this I inferred that she could have told Roy anything she wanted, at least spoken it out loud even if Roy wasn't really listening.
V knows pretty well that distracting a melee warrior mid-battle is not a good idea. V explained virself, why ve said what ve said, but did not continue because ve understans, too, that NOW'S REALLY NOT THE TIME. It could take hours to explain everything, they don't have them. Seriously, you are going overboard with V-blaming now (no pun intended).

[pendell]

YES! YES! YES! Vaarsuvius is advocating the only rational course of action WHICH IS RETREAT INTO THE RIFT! Which is what I have been saying all along!

Roy doesn't want to do that. I don't think he's had enough time to think about it -- he's in the middle of a battle and he has what he thinks is a good plan. He's not about to toss it in exchange for an unknown, not when he has better options.

Regardless, Roy is making a tactical error, and I strongly doubt this error will be without cost. Someone in the party will pay it, and it won't be him. That's the horrible thing about being a leader -- other people pay the price for your mistakes.

Calling it now: Team OOTS will be driven into the rift, following Vaarsuvius who has evidently already fled there.

Vaarsuvius earns major, major points towards goodness. This is REPENTANCE. A fullblown acknowledgement of V's errors and a disclosure of all relevant facts while omitting unnecessary detail.

That's -- awesome. I think he's officially back in the neutral camp, although he was already there according to Team IFC.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Forikroder]

YES! YES! YES! Vaarsuvius is advocating the only rational course of action WHICH IS RETREAT INTO THE RIFT! Which is what I have been saying all along!

Roy doesn't want to do that. I don't think he's had enough time to think about it -- he's in the middle of a battle and he has what he thinks is a good plan. He's not about to toss it in exchange for an unknown, not when he has better options.

Regardless, Roy is making a tactical error, and I strongly doubt this error will be without cost. Someone in the party will pay it, and it won't be him. That's the horrible thing about being a leader -- other people pay the price for your mistakes.

Calling it now: Team OOTS will be driven into the rift, following Vaarsuvius who has evidently already fled there.

Vaarsuvius earns major, major points towards goodness. This is REPENTANCE. A fullblown acknowledgement of V's errors and a disclosure of all relevant facts while omitting unnecessary detail.

That's -- awesome. I think he's officially back in the neutral camp, although he was already there according to Team IFC.

Respectfully,

Brian P.
everythign Roy is saying is 100% right, there are far far far too many unknowns that retreating into the rift is a good idea

[Goosefeather]

Roy expects not to survive this encounter

:roy: I could not care less about beating them. I just want us to get away alive [...] What we need to do is find a way out of here that is hard for them to follow.


Seems to me that he hasn't quite given up hope yet.

V has committed to telling Roy the truth, and will have to do so as soon as soon as Roy has time to listen. Roy isn't going to simply forget this little exchange - he's going to want more details later - and V knows that. The decision to confess has been made and acted upon, and now it's a question of 'when' rather than 'if' V is going to give a fuller confession.

[zimmerwald1915]

Or because I just didn't worry about it too much because the readers such as yourself who will never be pleased with anything Vaarsuvius ever does ever again will always find something to hang their hat on, so I'm not writing for them or their level of dialogue dissection.
That's fair. I think this paragraph and posts like it misconstrue my position (that V needs to earn a reaction other than condemnation through positive action, and that she hasn't done it yet), but I've probably pissed you off enough that what I actually believe doesn't matter.

EDIT: see below :smallsmile:

[Porthos]

Do you think that the rest of the party will really be all that upset over it?

Killing black dragons is what heroes DO. Wiping out a whole bunch of them who personally threatened V's family is just an exercise in efficiency. V's only mistake was in forgetting that dragons and humans can hybridize.

I know that The Giant doesn't want us to discuss Familicide in this thread, so I will instead point out only one dragon threatened V's family, not 'a whole bunch of them'.

How V decided to handle the threat of one dragon the rest of the Order might have a few qualms about.

Anything else I would have to say about the matter should probably be left to a Familicide specific thread.

====

As for the comic, this was a HUGE step for V. Practically the very first words out of his mouth are "I done did bad, Dad." That 'Dad' doesn't want to hear the full details yet is unimportant. V is trying to start the converstation.

And it is that start that matters. It shows that V is willing to face up to at least some of what he did. And possibly all of it, given his previous self-reflection.

[Wolv90]

Good grief, we get it, you think Vaarsuvius is the worst character in all of history and nothing will convince you otherwise, even in the face of the very author's refutations. Start a blog already.

Well said. I get angry every time I see that winged unicorn avatar. I just know the post will be "V is evil, V should just kill itself, why does anyone want to see V anymore?" Just let it go and let the Giant deal with it.

Or as the Giant said, "Or because I just didn't worry about it too much because the readers such as yourself who will never be pleased with anything Vaarsuvius ever does ever again will always find something to hang their hat on, so I'm not writing for them or their level of dialogue dissection."

[Ran Cossack]

V finally admits it. good for her, I guess.When I read that, I wondered "Okay, how will the 'V regrets nothing' crowd rationalize away that?" And then I read a few more lines and there was the answer. ;) (Seriously, I'd have thought 866 would have laid that to rest.)

I forgot what Shojo said about the rift ensaring souls. :smallredface: Glad Roy didn't.

[hamishspence]

That's -- awesome. I think he's officially back in the neutral camp, although he was already there according to Team IFC.

Around the time of strip 801, The Giant posted that V is True Neutral.

So that's been known for a while.

[Forikroder]

I know that The Giant doesn't want us to discuss Familicide in this thread, so I will instead point out only one dragon threatened V's family, not 'a whole bunch of them'.

How V decided to handle the threat of one dragon the rest of the Order might have a few qualms about.

Anything else I would have to say about the matter should probably be left to a Familicide specific thread.

====

As for the comic, this was a HUGE step for V. Practically the very first words out of his mouth are "I done did bad, Dad." That 'Dad' doesn't want to hear the full details yet is unimportant. V is trying to start the converstation.

And it is that start that matters. It shows that V is willing to face up to at least some of what he did. And possibly all of it, given his previous self-reflection.
only one dragon was threatening Vs family, but that one dragon was doing so because of Vs action to a different dragon so its logical to assume that some other dragon might be angry at what happened to this dragon

[Ceaon]

Per the Giant, I inferred incorrectly...but why was it so easy?

It was easy to infer incorrectly because you hate Vaarsuvius a lot more than the Giant does. :smallamused:

[AutomatedTeller]

Lovely little comic, Rich. I almost laughed out loud at the "plink" in panel 2 :) And I think V did exactly what was appropriate - given how long-winded V used to be, this is serious growth - insist on getting it started, but be willing to be practical.

Obviously, the tale is not yet done - V has more difficult things to say - but V has started, and that's the hardest piece.

I also like that V gave credit to Blackwing for looking into the rift.

[F.Harr]

See?! What did I tell you? Shame! It's a powerful force.



Noticed a couple of typos, 'glamered' and 'effortess'.

And I'm so proud of V! :smallbiggrin:

...for knowing when NOT to spend an entire strip blabbing, oh yeah also for that whole confession thing.

Oh yeah, that was probably as concise as V has ever cotten. That was marvelous!

[The Giant]

That's fair. I think this paragraph and posts like it misconstrue my position (that V needs to earn a reaction other than condemnation through positive action, and that she hasn't done it yet),

Yes, but this is a serialized story with literally years left to tell. There is only so much that can happen in any given update, and V's story is NOT the main plot of the the comic, ultimately. I'm not going to rush any aspect of a character's arc just to please a vocal minority.

[JennTora]

Well, if she did Roy's logic might be useful. He admits that bodily death is not a concern if the loss of a soul is at risk? He might be the most understanding of V's decision. Unless V talks about the alternative solution that would have worked just as well that we see here, http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0634.html

The alternative option was completely unfeasible for reasons that have been discussed to death. And I think that if V mentioned it everyone except maybe Elan and Belkar would notice the countless flaws.

:roy: Wait so this "alternate plan" hinged on resurrection not having a ten minute casting time, and your master just happening to have spells prepared to fight a dragon?

:haley: I think those fiends were probably trying to deceive you for some reason, maybe just so you'd feel worse about the whole thing.

:durkon: ye- ye do know tha' fiends tend ta be... deceitful, aye?

Heck V might even notice just as she said it.

[zimmerwald1915]

It was easy to infer incorrectly because you hate Vaarsuvius a lot more than the Giant does. :smallamused:
Okay, that's probably fair too :smallbiggrin:


Yes, but this is a serialized story with literally years left to tell. There is only so much that can happen in any given update, and V's story is NOT the main plot of the the comic, ultimately. I'm not going to rush any aspect of a character's arc just to please a vocal minority.
Well, then keep up the sometimes-maddening-but-really-appropriate slow pace, and the rest of the good work. Can't wait for the next book's commentary.

[Liliet]

YES! YES! YES! Vaarsuvius is advocating the only rational course of action WHICH IS RETREAT INTO THE RIFT! Which is what I have been saying all along!

Roy doesn't want to do that. I don't think he's had enough time to think about it -- he's in the middle of a battle and he has what he thinks is a good plan. He's not about to toss it in exchange for an unknown, not when he has better options.

Regardless, Roy is making a tactical error, and I strongly doubt this error will be without cost. Someone in the party will pay it, and it won't be him. That's the horrible thing about being a leader -- other people pay the price for your mistakes.

Calling it now: Team OOTS will be driven into the rift, following Vaarsuvius who has evidently already fled there.

Vaarsuvius earns major, major points towards goodness. This is REPENTANCE. A fullblown acknowledgement of V's errors and a disclosure of all relevant facts while omitting unnecessary detail.

That's -- awesome. I think he's officially back in the neutral camp, although he was already there according to Team IFC.

Respectfully,

Brian P.
...I knew it was wishful thinking.

So what if there's a world visible over there, IT DOESN'T MEAN THE RIFT IS JUST A COMPLETELY SAFE PORTAL THAT WILL NOT DISINTEGRATE YOUR SOUL!!! Ahem. Sorry for the yelling. Needed to get it out of my system.



:roy: I could not care less about beating them. I just want us to get away alive [...] What we need to do is find a way out of here that is hard for them to follow.


Seems to me that he hasn't quite given up hope yet.

V has committed to telling Roy the truth, and will have to do so as soon as soon as Roy has time to listen. Roy isn't going to simply forget this little exchange - he's going to want more details later - and V knows that. The decision to confess has been made and acted upon, and now it's a question of 'when' rather than 'if' V is going to give a fuller confession.
Exactly. Roy isn't stupid, and V has given enough hints that there's more to tell.



Well said. I get angry every time I see that winged unicorn avatar. I just know the post will be "V is evil, V should just kill itself, why does anyone want to see V anymore?" Just let it go and let the Giant deal with it.

Or as the Giant said, "Or because I just didn't worry about it too much because the readers such as yourself who will never be pleased with anything Vaarsuvius ever does ever again will always find something to hang their hat on, so I'm not writing for them or their level of dialogue dissection."
And to think that such a beautiful picture of humanised!Twilight gets spoiled.

I don't have that level of harsh feelings yet, however. While zimmer is irrational in some extremes, he is overall still a much more adequate person to talk to than those who insist Familicide wasn't Evil (I saw one in this thread). So, zim, don't take it too close to heart. You are still welcome here even by some V-lovers.

[bengator]

"Plink." That's funny. I thought it would be more of a "bonk" but probably needs to be a larger missile for that . . .

[ti'esar]

Well said. I get angry every time I see that winged unicorn avatar. I just know the post will be "V is evil, V should just kill itself, why does anyone want to see V anymore?" Just let it go and let the Giant deal with it.

You know, if it bothers you that much, there is such a thing as an "ignore" tool on this forum.

Moving on to the actual strip... somehow, Roy's absolute determination to not go into the rift has made me give more credit to the idea that they'll go into the rift then any speculation so far.

[gallagher]

Way to go elf buddy!

[bengator]

Yes, but this is a serialized story with literally years left to tell. There is only so much that can happen in any given update, and V's story is NOT the main plot of the the comic, ultimately. I'm not going to rush any aspect of a character's arc just to please a vocal minority.

I am glad to hear there are years left to tell. I get anxious when people start talking about the end. This is too much fun!

[Porthos]

only one dragon was threatening Vs family, but that one dragon was doing so because of Vs action to a different dragon so its logical to assume that some other dragon might be angry at what happened to this dragon

Not the thread to discuss this, sorry. Perhaps some other time in another thread. :smallsmile:

[Forikroder]

The alternative option was completely unfeasible for reasons that have been discussed to death. And I think that if V mentioned it everyone except maybe Elan and Belkar would notice the countless flaws.

:roy: Wait so this "alternate plan" hinged on resurrection not having a ten minute casting time, and your master just happening to have spells prepared to fight a dragon?

:haley: I think those fiends were probably trying to deceive you for some reason, maybe just so you'd feel worse about the whole thing.

:durkon: ye- ye do know tha' fiends tend ta be... deceitful, aye?

Heck V might even notice just as she said it.

the rel;iability of the second plan doesnt matter, at the time V believed that the other plan would work perfectly but chose the plan that keeps his pride in tact and lets him handle it all herself


Not the thread to discuss this, sorry. Perhaps some other time in another thread.

i know not trying to start a discussion, but saying that the ABD was the only dragon V needed to worry about was wrong

[Breccia]

Plink.

Yes! Defensive spells win the day.

[FlawedParadigm]

Or because I just didn't worry about it too much because the readers such as yourself who will never be pleased with anything Vaarsuvius ever does ever again will always find something to hang their hat on, so I'm not writing for them or their level of dialogue dissection.


It's little things like this where Rich stands his ground and defends his decisions that make me glad he's increased his forum participation schedule. Also, classy burn.

[DaOldeWolf]

I loved today´s comic. Its beautiful artwork, especially the flames. I could stare at them the whole day. :smallcool:

And definitely a touching moemnt between V and Blackwing.

[The Giant]

OK, let's stop the meta-discussion about zimmerwald1915 and continue talking about the actual comic.

[Shale]

To latch onto a different bit of textual analysis, I would like to give the Giant a virtual high-five for using "could not care less" properly.

[Liliet]

the rel;iability of the second plan doesnt matter, at the time V believed that the other plan would work perfectly but chose the plan that keeps his pride in tact and lets him handle it all herself
Partly true, but even if V weren't prideful, ve would never have chosen the second plan. It clearly needed more time than the first one, and was thus less reliable. Ve didn't have the time to dwell on it, so there wasn't really a choice.

The fiends just made it seem like there was so V would feel worse about it later. Classy.



i know not trying to start a discussion, but saying that the ABD was the only dragon V needed to worry about was wrong
OH NOES SOMEONE IS WRONG IN THE INTERNET.
Cut it out, will ya?



Plink.

Yes! Defensive spells win the day.
Also, this.



It's little things like this where Rich stands his ground and defends his decisions that make me glad he's increased his forum participation schedule. Also, classy burn.
And this.


Also, Giant, I'm trying to represent a vocal majority here. What you are doing is awesome. Everyone gets it that V is trying vir best to not keep things secret anymore. Even zim does, I guess, and is just arguing on principle (I know I would in his shoes). This comic is beautiful.

[zimmerwald1915]

So, zim, don't take it too close to heart. You are still welcome here even by some V-lovers.
Never doubted it. Heck, one of the good things about V-lovers is that they're - you're? - willing to believe the best of people.

EDIT: ninja'd by Giant-as-mod. Do you mind if I leave this up though? Liliet deserves a compliment.

EDIT2:

Also, Giant, I'm trying to represent a vocal majority here...
PM'd.

[JennTora]

the rel;iability of the second plan doesnt matter, at the time V believed that the other plan would work perfectly but chose the plan that keeps his pride in tact and lets him handle it all herself

It wouldn't matter to V, she'd still feel guiltified. That does not mean the rest of the party will be enraged at her for not going with a plan that would most likely just get them all killed.

[Goosefeather]

To latch onto a different bit of textual analysis, I would like to give the Giant a virtual high-five for using "could not care less" properly.

It's also in-character - I see Roy as the type to get annoyed by people saying 'could care less'. Perhaps there's a correlation between linguistic prescriptivism and Lawfulness? :smalltongue:

[RebelRogue]

Hmm. I wonder if sending the devil through the portal could prove it to be safe.

[Liliet]

Never doubted it. Heck, one of the good things about V-lovers is that they're - you're? - willing to believe the best of people.

EDIT: ninja'd by Giant-as-mod. Do you mind if I leave this up though? Liliet deserves a compliment.
Thank you. I know I'm trying to. Even Tarquin.
I'm no good as a hater...


It's also in-character - I see Roy as the type to get annoyed by people saying 'could care less'. Perhaps there's a correlation between linguistic prescriptivism and Lawfulness? :smalltongue:
I bet there is - they have a common source in certain personality traits.

[Shale]

Or Durkon.

:roy: The undead don't have souls, right? So even if he's destroyed we can get him Resurrected later with a bit of beard or something.
:vaarsuvius: How should I know? I devoted my study to the analysis of true magic, not the whims of overblown deific megalomaniacs.

[Liliet]

Hmm. I wonder if sending the devil through the portal could prove it to be safe.

It is said to destroy SOULS. It could be such a proof, but it's EVIL. It's not safe even for a summoned creature.

Also, big thanks to the Giant for good English. When you are actively trying to learn it from the forum and the comic, it's such a big relief to know that you are learning PROPER English.

[Jane_Doe]

...I knew it was wishful thinking.

So what if there's a world visible over there, IT DOESN'T MEAN THE RIFT IS JUST A COMPLETELY SAFE PORTAL THAT WILL NOT DISINTEGRATE YOUR SOUL!!! Ahem. Sorry for the yelling. Needed to get it out of my system.

I'll not say that they will go through it (it would be perfectly reasonable for this to just be a bit more foreshadowing for a bit of plot involving the portals for later), or that they should go through it ("Durkon flies off and resurrects them later", even if messy given that they need to ensure the bodies aren't Disintegrated, is still significantly less risky than "Playing with a presumed soul-eating abomination"), but...

Well, they certainly seem to believe that this is a near-hopeless fight, and V seems to think that there's a good chance they're wrong regarding its nature. There are some situations that would provide more persuasive motivation for them to enter the rift, but this is still one of the more persuasive ones.

That said, people have been saying "Go through the rift!" for something in the range of the last twenty strips or so; I can well understand why the prediction may become repetitive :) .


he is overall still a much more adequate person to talk to than those who insist Familicide wasn't Evil (I saw one in this thread).

This really, really makes me want to making a joking justification as to how Familicide wasn't Evil on the grounds that I really, really like V, thus making everything she does saintly, but...

Well, this forum has seen enough Familicide fights this months, and I'm concerned that even joking about it would somehow lead to another debate on it.

[happycrow]

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that Roy's picking precisely the right course of action. If Elan's down there, Team Tarquin may lay off with overkill psion attacks (about which I know absolutely nothing game-rules-wise) and similar interventions which may happen to be AoE, and Elan will make them better at doing what they do. If, while this is going on, Count Durkula has been able to dominate a sufficiently high number of troops this could easily break into the sort of standoff that could prompt Tarquin to toss off a "hrm... well, actually, Mr. Greenilt was pretty impressive here, and you're really sort of sub-par as a hero at the moment, why don't you use him as a mentor and learn from him for a while while I get on with achieving whatever goal I was thinking of anyway, and we'll pick this up once you're done with that Xylon sub-boss you were telling me about."

Or some other equivalent.

[SympathyBot]

Love the comic.
Great to see V back in the middle of things once again. It makes me excited that V suggested going into the rift. There are so many questions that could be answered by going inside, and I love answered questions. And also Roy's double kill... so cool.
Keep up the amazing work.

[Forikroder]

Partly true, but even if V weren't prideful, ve would never have chosen the second plan. It clearly needed more time than the first one, and was thus less reliable. Ve didn't have the time to dwell on it, so there wasn't really a choice.

The fiends just made it seem like there was so V would feel worse about it later. Classy.


OH NOES SOMEONE IS WRONG IN THE INTERNET.
Cut it out, will ya?

hypocrite


It is said to destroy SOULS. It could be such a proof, but it's EVIL. It's not safe even for a summoned creature.

Also, big thanks to the Giant for good English. When you are actively trying to learn it from the forum and the comic, it's such a big relief to know that you are learning PROPER English.

unfortunately for the Demon he was called not summoned so if he dies its for good

or maybe you cant kill demons i dunno

[Doug Lampert]

only one dragon was threatening Vs family, but that one dragon was doing so because of Vs action to a different dragon so its logical to assume that some other dragon might be angry at what happened to this dragon

Yep, there are even TWO OBVIOUS candidates for dragons to come after V for killing the ABD.

The YBD's UNCLE (specifically not ever referred to as the ABD's brother and with the link already dead, hence no reason to think the familicide would get him), and the family of "that nice green dragon" the ABD thought her son might get together with, also not hit by familicide.

Of course AFTER familicide, baring direct intervention by the IFCC, TIAMAT would have DEFINITELY been coming for vengence ALONG WITH both groups that might already have wanted vengence.

And the common factor of all these dragons is, no reason at all to think they were hit by familicide. Yep, that spell made V's family EVER SO MUCH SAFER!


i know not trying to start a discussion, but saying that the ABD was the only dragon V needed to worry about was wrong
You are of course correct, it's just that EVERY BIT of available evidence indicates that there' NO REASON to think Familicide helped with that problem, and excellent reason to think it was actively counterproductive.

[Forikroder]

Yep, there are even TWO OBVIOUS candidates for dragons to come after V for killing the ABD.

The YBD's UNCLE (specifically not ever referred to as the ABD's brother and with the link already dead, hence no reason to think the familicide would get him), and the family of "that nice green dragon" the ABD thought her son might get together with, also not hit by familicide.

Of course AFTER familicide, baring direct intervention by the IFCC, TIAMAT would have DEFINITELY been coming for vengence ALONG WITH both groups that might already have wanted vengence.

And the common factor of all these dragons is, no reason at all to think they were hit by familicide. Yep, that spell made V's family EVER SO MUCH SAFER!


You are of course correct, it's just that EVERY BIT of available evidence indicates that there' NO REASON to think Familicide helped with that problem, and excellent reason to think it was actively counterproductive.

Tiamat is incapable of getting revenge on V, the other gods would ahve prevented it which is why Tiamat directly her fury at the IFCC

also the YBDs incle would get hit by Familicide

[jidasfire]

Nice forward momentum in this strip. Even though Roy is rejecting the idea outright, it seems like the Order is moving inevitably towards hopping into the Rift, and I for one am looking forward to it. That said, I only hope that in so doing, they don't leave Tarquin alive and unbeaten. Fascinating character though he is, at this point with everything he's done and continues to do, he needs to be taken down hard. While the odds are looking grim, I don't think it's impossible for them to win. Roy still has his caster-busting feat, which he could theoretically use to take down Myron and/or Laurin, V is still fairly strong on spells, and Elan's plan to beat Tarquin is still hanging over our heads. If their leaders are beaten, I can't imagine the army wanting to stick around.

And it did seem like V was going to have to confess soon, so I'm glad that is now underway. I can't imagine Roy taking it well, but then, he's tolerated Belkar for this long, and now Durkon's vampirism as well, so who knows? It's probably the sort of thing where Roy continues not to be in a position to refuse anyone's help, and given V's sincere desire to make things right, it's just another thing to test Roy's leadership skills.

On that note, I would like to point out how much I'm enjoying the fact that in this arc, Roy has proven a particularly competent commander and strategist. I always liked the guy, but sometimes I felt like his brains were something we as the audience took for granted because he was the straight man. No longer. He's beaten a physically superior warrior in combat without his best items, he effectively tricked Xykon into leaving the fight, he outmaneuvered a master general, and now he's using his very exhausted and battered team to hold off an entire battalion. If he lost a level from his death, I think it's fair to say he's earned it back at this point.

[Forikroder]

Nice forward momentum in this strip. Even though Roy is rejecting the idea outright, it seems like the Order is moving inevitably towards hopping into the Rift, and I for one am looking forward to it. That said, I only hope that in so doing, they don't leave Tarquin alive and unbeaten. Fascinating character though he is, at this point with everything he's done and continues to do, he needs to be taken down hard. While the odds are looking grim, I don't think it's impossible for them to win. Roy still has his caster-busting feat, which he could theoretically use to take down Myron and/or Laurin, V is still fairly strong on spells, and Elan's plan to beat Tarquin is still hanging over our heads. If their leaders are beaten, I can't imagine the army wanting to stick around.

And it did seem like V was going to have to confess soon, so I'm glad that is now underway. I can't imagine Roy taking it well, but then, he's tolerated Belkar for this long, and now Durkon's vampirism as well, so who knows? It's probably the sort of thing where Roy continues not to be in a position to refuse anyone's help, and given V's sincere desire to make things right, it's just another thing to test Roy's leadership skills.

On that note, I would like to point out how much I'm enjoying the fact that in this arc, Roy has proven a particularly competent commander and strategist. I always liked the guy, but sometimes I felt like his brains were something we as the audience took for granted because he was the straight man. No longer. He's beaten a physically superior warrior in combat without his best items, he effectively tricked Xykon into leaving the fight, he outmaneuvered a master general, and now he's using his very exhausted and battered team to hold off an entire battalion. If he lost a level from his death, I think it's fair to say he's earned it back at this point.

he tricked Xykon into leaving the fight? do you think Roy is like an epic level psion and minc controlled the MiTD?

[Necris Omega]

Fight now, exposition later!

V's had enough time to twiddle its thumbs and wallow in inaction, it's time for violence!

That said, I'm very happy to see Roy sticking to his guns in opposition to the "let's dive into the magic rift to the prison of a god killing horror!" plan. Diving into any portal of uncertain destination is bad, but one linked to a violent, god killing abomination?

Everything they even think they know about this thing says that only fools would rush in. "Oops, the Snarl made its own world out of antimatter in protest to the Gods and their creation, on contact with the anti-air you explode for ∞d6 damage."

If they can hold out until dusk when Durkon gets his spells back, they may have a fighting chance. If they run into the rift, the best they can hope for is Roy doing really really well on his Swim checks while wearing platemail. Also, they'd have to abandon Vampire Durkon due to the whole water thing.

Stay the course fearless leader - we can explore the mysteries of the gate under less suicidal conditions later.

[jidasfire]

he tricked Xykon into leaving the fight? do you think Roy is like an epic level psion and minc controlled the MiTD?

Not quite. I was summing up, but to put it more precisely, if Roy hadn't blown the Gate, Xykon would have popped in, he and Redcloak would have slaughtered everyone there, Monster or no Monster. It was only because Roy destroyed the Gate that Xykon left. While it may have been a bad move in the long run, in the short term it really was the best thing to do.

[Oko and Qailee]

Love it.

I love Roy's attitude, his reasoning for not wanting to be unmade isn't for the sake of being unmade itself but because "Xykon is still out there"

V too, glad to see she's trying to open up.

[stavro375]

...I knew it was wishful thinking.

So what if there's a world visible over there, IT DOESN'T MEAN THE RIFT IS JUST A COMPLETELY SAFE PORTAL THAT WILL NOT DISINTEGRATE YOUR SOUL!!! Ahem. Sorry for the yelling. Needed to get it out of my system.

On the one hand, from what we know that's exactly right.

On the other hand, the "Escape into the rift!" plan has been mentioned so many times in-comic that it's inevitable that the Order will do it, probably before the end of this book.

[RNGgod]

Okay, that's probably fair too :smallbiggrin:


Well, then keep up the sometimes-maddening-but-really-appropriate slow pace, and the rest of the good work. Can't wait for the next book's commentary.


Oh, you said it. The stuff on V and Tarquin will be absolutely fascinating.


Though, I'm fully expecting the section on Tarquin to begin, "I've often wondered to myself whether I could create a character even more controversial than Miko..."

[Forikroder]

On the one hand, from what we know that's exactly right.

On the other hand, the "Escape into the rift!" plan has been mentioned so many times in-comic that it's inevitable that the Order will do it, probably before the end of this book.

or maybe the giants like "maybe this time people will stop talking about it"

theres no chance of them going through the rift becuase A) it means sacrificing Durkula who cant B) it means taking the risk of being UNMADE C) they dont know if its a 2 way trip so even if they go through doesnt mean they can come back D) Roy would probably drown (belkar would probably drwon too without help) E) they dont actually know the rift is traversible

they will probably go through the rift next book after Kraagars gate goes Kraaaackakrooom and the IFCC's plan is unveiled

[Spoomeister]

V's non-confession confession is a good starting place for her. Journey of a thousand miles blah blah single step blah. It's also in keeping for her to start getting into it in mid-battle because a) it's been weighing on her heavily and she just can't wait, but more to the point b) it's just a fight with a bunch of mooks and she feels relatively safe at the moment, given the amount of fire and lightning she can toss around.

I'll borrow some spoiler tags to hide and compress a side tangent / plot guess:

I actually would not be surprised if this is all the backstory Roy gets, and a longer more heartfelt confession is given to Haley. I believe Haley is likely the closest to a true friend V has, and most likely to be the best to confide in. Consider:

- Friend (there's the OOTS)
- Who is seen as at least an equal (lets out Elan)
- Who she trusts (probably lets out Durkula, probably Belkar too)
- Who understands how horrifying some of her actions were (lets out Belkar)
- Who could truly forgive (we're left with Roy and Haley)

Roy would probably forgive, but it'd be much more out of "you're still useful, you didn't fully realize what you were doing, and even if you're horrifying, look at these other evil guys I have around, get in line". True comfort is probably left to Haley.

That could lead to a scene with some business or other going on in the foreground (likely some plot exposition or linking between major chapters) while wordlessly in the background we have V confessing tearfully to Haley and Haley reacting, then tearfully forgiving and comforting.

I also like Blackwing's encouragement. I wouldn't have been surprised at all if Blackwing didn't come back from the side trip to hell, due to a technicality... but it's nice to see him (her? him? him) there.

I have to wonder if V is going to be able to just swoop in, pick up Haley and Elan, and then taxi them back to the center of the fire ring. I'd think there would be a note of objection from somewhere in Tarquin's party (if it is Tarquin's party... I've started to get curious about the other adventurers' perspective on this...). At the very least, Laurin is about the only one on the battlefield at the moment that could counter most of what V can do.

I don't think V was around for Durkon's vamping, and Roy's muttered side comment about him seemed to pass unnoticed. I know, as the Giant noted upthread, there's only room to cover so many things in one update. But I'm interested to see how V reacts to him.

Speaking of Durkon: Isn't he going to have to feed sometime soon? The primary in-story worry has been surviving until dusk so Durkon can pray and reload his spells (and I don't know as that's a given in and of itself... he's um, "switching wireless service providers" rather drastically). But I think D's need to feed is going to be a bigger concern soon. I know there's a nice convenient and growing pile of ex-mooks to work with for that, at the moment, but assuming he survives and accompanies the order, I've been wondering how this will develop long-term. Roy would need to do some increasingly large looking the other way when it comes to this. I don't know as Durkon "stepping out for a quick bite" is the same as say tolerating or reining in Belkar. There's bloodthirsty and then there's bloodthirsty, is what I'm sayin'.

And finally, the arrow plinking off of Belkar's head was adorable.

[Vinsfeld]

Wow. Just great

[Dandria]

This is all well and Neutral, but what is Tarquin doing while this is going on? What's his real plan? Because this one is clearly not working and I think he's a despicable little man, but not a stupid one.

[zimmerwald1915]

On the other hand, the "Escape into the rift!" plan has been mentioned so many times in-comic that it's inevitable that the Order will do it, probably before the end of this book.
Turn the argument on its head: "the 'escape into the rift' plan has been disdained so many times in-comic that it's inevitable that the Order will do it, probably before the end of this book." You'll see both are equally nonsensical.

[Oko and Qailee]

I knew there was going to be a problem somehow.
.

Some members of the forums just want to continously show hate for V regardless of anything she does. V could save a drowning puppy ad they would still say that specific act (saving the puppy) was evil and wrong of her, or that she could have done it better, or is intentionally withholding.

See, they can't separate the concepts of "Is a bad person" with "must always be a vile cruel person all the time."

So naturally, when V does as Roy asks and waits, it's not "she was listening to Roy" it was "She is trying to hide her genocide and knowledge of the rift!!! She is Asmodeus incarnate!"

[Ubab]

@ 2) Very cool the arrow bouncing off Belkar. Show this kind of magic effect is very good.

No signal from Tarquin and his teammates.

V was in good measure. Talking about the rift in Azure City and started to talk about his deal. Roy has no time to explanations, as he didn't take care about Durkon undeadness, until he have time to think about it.

V talks a lot, and will not talk about the IFCC deal in the middle of a battle. What can V say? Roy isn't able to think about it now, and can't afford the V help in the battle.

I stay with Blackwing. V is in progress, and is getting pragmatic. I'm proud too.

To the one that has nothing, half it's the double!

[TBFProgrammer]

On the one hand, from what we know that's exactly right.

On the other hand, the "Escape into the rift!" plan has been mentioned so many times in-comic that it's inevitable that the Order will do it, probably before the end of this book.

The alternate explanations being:

Meta: The Giant is trying to get forumites to drop the idea and/or using it to tease them.

Foreshadow: This is groundwork being laid down for what comes after Kraggor's gate is destroyed and the world, surprisingly, doesn't get unmade.

[Canisius]

I like how the Giant set things up. In many cases, I could predict the next step because the author is unoriginal. here, I am not certain what will happen, but I feel confident that whatever does will make sense because the Giant took the time to create the environment. All in all good storytelling.

I've been re-reading chunks of the story off and on. I just finished the prelude and battle for Azure City (that was awesome!). It's amazing how many little bits of foreshadowing you see that presage current events. I think I even may have found a couple of possible spoilers.

You're right about the storytelling. It seems like soon after the "joke-a-day" strips, Rich got the whole "novel" in his head, and has been dribbling it out ever since.

(I miss the Phlumps, though, or whatever they're called. :smallsmile:)

[hamishspence]

I don't think V was around for Durkon's vamping, and Roy's muttered side comment about him seemed to pass unnoticed.

V didn't witness the vampiring- but V has been watching the last few minutes since the destruction of the gate on the IFCC's screen- so V will probably have seen enough to deduce that Malack was a vampire, and sired Durkon before being killed by Nale.

[Forikroder]

This is all well and Neutral, but what is Tarquin doing while this is going on? What's his real plan? Because this one is clearly not working and I think he's a despicable little man, but not a stupid one.

well i think his short term plan is to enjoy watching the battle a little longer

[Canisius]

I've been re-reading chunks of the story off and on. I just finished the prelude and battle for Azure City (that was awesome!). It's amazing how many little bits of foreshadowing you see that presage current events. I think I even may have found a couple of possible spoilers.

You're right about the storytelling. It seems like soon after the "joke-a-day" strips, Rich got the whole "novel" in his head, and has been dribbling it out ever since.

(I miss the Phlumps, though, or whatever they're called. :smallsmile:)

Oh, and the side-quest with Elan and Thog is still hysterical to re-read!

[zimmerwald1915]

Though, I'm fully expecting the section on Tarquin to begin, "I've often wondered to myself whether I could create a character even more controversial than Miko..."
Is Tarquin more controversial than Miko was? I've heard doubt cast on that supposition by the more seasoned forumites.


I have to wonder if V is going to be able to just swoop in, pick up Haley and Elan, and then taxi them back to the center of the fire ring. I'd think there would be a note of objection from somewhere in Tarquin's party (if it is Tarquin's party... I've started to get curious about the other adventurers' perspective on this...). At the very least, Laurin is about the only one on the battlefield at the moment that could counter most of what V can do.
I think she'll probably cast that extra fly she's carrying around on either Haley or Elan and have the one carry the other while she covers them with spells. AND IT WILL BE EEEEEEEEEEEEEVIL!

[stavro375]

or maybe the giants like "maybe this time people will stop talking about it"

But those of us who observe the Law of Conversation of Detail (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheLawOfConservationOfDetail) will be further egged on every time he ham-fistedly attempts to crush us :smalltongue:

Seriously, though -- a character mentioning a plan once could be anything. But two characters mentioning the same plan? That's a pattern.

[littlebum2002]

I'm pretty sure V cast Wall of Fire just so that Rich can take a break from drawing Mooks, lol.

But seriously, for those talking about the quality of artwork: I think the last dozen strips or so has shown a remarkable increase in the quality. The army of mooks, the dust effect, the fireball, all look incredible.

And yes, I think V's confession was lacking, but she DID say the decisions showed "poor moral character" which, if I were Roy, is enough to ask for more detail later. So I agree this is satisfactory for the circumstances.


Also, Chekhov's Wands.

[Gift Jeraff]

Is Tarquin more controversial than Miko was? I've heard doubt cast on that supposition by the more seasoned forumites.


I think she'll probably cast that extra fly she's carrying around on either Haley or Elan and have the one carry the other while she covers them with spells. AND IT WILL BE EEEEEEEEEEEEEVIL!

Now would be a good time for Haley to reveal her obvious celestial heritage and carry Elan without V wasting a Fly spell.

[Ridureyu]

I knew there was going to be a problem somehow.

V not going into more details is a concession to Roy effectively saying, "Why are we talking about this right now?" The point is that Roy now knows that there is something that happened that V hasn't told him.

Or, from a meta point of view, the point is that I don't need to spend three pages talking about this right in the middle of a battle scene just to show that V has decided to tell Roy at the first possible opportunity.

I think what we need is a special, second web comic where the dialogue is just rephrased forum quotes, meant to satisfy people who will hate anything less.

[Forikroder]

Now would be a good time for Haley to reveal her obvious celestial heritage and carry Elan without V wasting a Fly spell.

maybe she can open a portal to Celestia and they can escape that way

[FlawedParadigm]

Now would be a good time for Haley to reveal her obvious celestial heritage and carry Elan without V wasting a Fly spell.

But then couldn't Tarquin use his Holy Avenger whip's power to dispel evil magic to stop the evil Haley from carrying off the hero Elan? (Please don't even try to dispute that Tarquin isn't a Paladin. It wouldn't make any sense at all.)

[Tundar]

*plink*
Hahahaha!!!
Should have been the title of this comic.

But wowsers, V is getting alot of off his chest these strips.

[zimmerwald1915]

Now would be a good time for Haley to reveal her obvious celestial heritage and carry Elan without V wasting a Fly spell.
Isn't it fun to laugh at ourselves?

That said, Elan might actually carry Haley. He's got nothing important to do with his hands while flying, while Haley can still use her bow or her wands while being carried. I know this being the "efficient" option makes it no more likely than any other, but they might need to be efficient if they want to both stay alive and avoid having to jump into the Rift.

[Liliet]

I'll not say that they will go through it (it would be perfectly reasonable for this to just be a bit more foreshadowing for a bit of plot involving the portals for later), or that they should go through it ("Durkon flies off and resurrects them later", even if messy given that they need to ensure the bodies aren't Disintegrated, is still significantly less risky than "Playing with a presumed soul-eating abomination"), but...

Well, they certainly seem to believe that this is a near-hopeless fight, and V seems to think that there's a good chance they're wrong regarding its nature. There are some situations that would provide more persuasive motivation for them to enter the rift, but this is still one of the more persuasive ones.

That said, people have been saying "Go through the rift!" for something in the range of the last twenty strips or so; I can well understand why the prediction may become repetitive :) .
Believe me it did. Long ago. People have argued it do death, and still every now and then someone will pop up and say "Also, next strip they'll enter the rift!"
This is one strip where this is actually remotely relevant, but it is also one where it was explained why entering the rift is a bad bad bad idea.



This really, really makes me want to making a joking justification as to how Familicide wasn't Evil on the grounds that I really, really like V, thus making everything she does saintly, but...

Well, this forum has seen enough Familicide fights this months, and I'm concerned that even joking about it would somehow lead to another debate on it.
Please don't. These suggestions invalidate V's moral growth and make vir look bad for teaching people the wrong lesson. Also, they sound extremely distasteful.



I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that Roy's picking precisely the right course of action. If Elan's down there, Team Tarquin may lay off with overkill psion attacks (about which I know absolutely nothing game-rules-wise) and similar interventions which may happen to be AoE, and Elan will make them better at doing what they do. If, while this is going on, Count Durkula has been able to dominate a sufficiently high number of troops this could easily break into the sort of standoff that could prompt Tarquin to toss off a "hrm... well, actually, Mr. Greenilt was pretty impressive here, and you're really sort of sub-par as a hero at the moment, why don't you use him as a mentor and learn from him for a while while I get on with achieving whatever goal I was thinking of anyway, and we'll pick this up once you're done with that Xylon sub-boss you were telling me about."

Or some other equivalent.
Wow. I wish it really happens this way!

Unfortunately, Tarquin seems to be too overriden with pride to notice this possible course of action...



hypocrite
The one time I agree with you :\
at least I know where I'm wrong



unfortunately for the Demon he was called not summoned so if he dies its for good
Even worse that way )=



Yep, there are even TWO OBVIOUS candidates for dragons to come after V for killing the ABD.

The YBD's UNCLE (specifically not ever referred to as the ABD's brother and with the link already dead, hence no reason to think the familicide would get him), and the family of "that nice green dragon" the ABD thought her son might get together with, also not hit by familicide.

Of course AFTER familicide, baring direct intervention by the IFCC, TIAMAT would have DEFINITELY been coming for vengence ALONG WITH both groups that might already have wanted vengence.

And the common factor of all these dragons is, no reason at all to think they were hit by familicide. Yep, that spell made V's family EVER SO MUCH SAFER!


You are of course correct, it's just that EVERY BIT of available evidence indicates that there' NO REASON to think Familicide helped with that problem, and excellent reason to think it was actively counterproductive.
I didn't want this discussion to start, but it's not like I can not participate in it now that it has started.

Yes, V has earned virself and specifically vir family (if we assume that ABD's manner of revenge is a cultural thing) a lot of enemies - for one, the childless spouses and friends of those who were killed. Blood bond is not the only one possible!



Tiamat is incapable of getting revenge on V, the other gods would ahve prevented it which is why Tiamat directly her fury at the IFCC

also the YBDs incle would get hit by Familicide
If he were ABD's brother, sure, but if he were just a husband of her sister and they never had any kids? No blood link.



On the one hand, from what we know that's exactly right.

On the other hand, the "Escape into the rift!" plan has been mentioned so many times in-comic that it's inevitable that the Order will do it, probably before the end of this book.
It's been mentioned so many times in the forum that it's completely obvious they won't do it.

I know the Giant doesn't change the events on basis of the forum discussions, but while he is big on foreshadowing, he generally doesn't do predictable. As far as I remember, so far exactly two widely predicted moments turned true: Malack being a vampire and Haley's dad having a relation to Elan's dad from that ransome note.

And I think the Giant wouldn't write himself in a narrative corner where everyone understands what's going to happen next (that is, beyond the scope of the single strip where some obvious inner logic is inevitable).

Of course, you can still be right in that they WILL enter the rift eventually, but I disagree that it is the only possible outcome.

[Tsyndrome]

:vaarsuvius: Perhaps we should employ the flying carpet?
:roy: We lost it the first time the Linear Guild attacked.

That should settle that... or at least until a hundred strips from now when people wonder what ever happened to the flying carpet.

[Ermete]

YES! YES! YES! Vaarsuvius is advocating the only rational course of action WHICH IS RETREAT INTO THE RIFT! Which is what I have been saying all along!

Roy doesn't want to do that. I don't think he's had enough time to think about it -- he's in the middle of a battle and he has what he thinks is a good plan. He's not about to toss it in exchange for an unknown, not when he has better options.

Regardless, Roy is making a tactical error, and I strongly doubt this error will be without cost. Someone in the party will pay it, and it won't be him. That's the horrible thing about being a leader -- other people pay the price for your mistakes.

Calling it now: Team OOTS will be driven into the rift, following Vaarsuvius who has evidently already fled there.

Vaarsuvius earns major, major points towards goodness. This is REPENTANCE. A fullblown acknowledgement of V's errors and a disclosure of all relevant facts while omitting unnecessary detail.

That's -- awesome. I think he's officially back in the neutral camp, although he was already there according to Team IFC.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

I disagree. V just stated that there is a world inside the rift, not that the Snarl is not there. (Since he cannot be sure)

In fact he didn't even try to convince Roy of his position, since he cannot be 100% sure.

of course I will be glad to contradicted by the future comics (since I'm really curious to know what there is in the rift), but - during this battle, I kind of doubt that it will happen.

[Grey Watcher]

So, Burlew, "No Surrender, No Retreat" was taken, eh? :smallwink:

[Goosefeather]

So, Burlew, "No Surrender, No Retreat" was taken, eh? :smallwink:

Never give up! Never surrender! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fdcIwHKd_s)

[mhsmith]

Some members of the forums just want to continously show hate for V regardless of anything she does. V could save a drowning puppy ad they would still say that specific act (saving the puppy) was evil and wrong of her, or that she could have done it better, or is intentionally withholding.


don't know why, but this immediately popped into my mind
http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS3Xq57MA0mWnenJn88bnTwILePr1i_b O7kgt_VPpwVKkKhGK0x

[Liliet]

Is Tarquin more controversial than Miko was? I've heard doubt cast on that supposition by the more seasoned forumites.
I don't think he is. The exact measure of his savvyness and whether we should hate him, love him or love to hate him is debatable, but his moral character is obvious. He would never be the reason for banning "morally justified" threads.



I think she'll probably cast that extra fly she's carrying around on either Haley or Elan and have the one carry the other while she covers them with spells. AND IT WILL BE EEEEEEEEEEEEEVIL!
This one time, I would even agree with you on that.


Now would be a good time for Haley to reveal her obvious celestial heritage and carry Elan without V wasting a Fly spell.
Of course! How could we have forgotten!

Then the extra Fly spell will be cast on Durkon who can carry Roy who can carry Belkar who can carry Mr. Scruffy who can probably also carry something else (V turned into a lizard by Baleful Polymorph from Laurin?)

[Tsyndrome]

So, Burlew, "No Surrender, No Retreat" was taken, eh? :smallwink:

Now you've got me wondering about a future in which the next book is amazing, and then the final one is b-plot filler, ending with a sublime final page that was written years prior.

"It was our last, best hope for PCs."

[Kish]

So, Burlew, "No Surrender, No Retreat" was taken, eh? :smallwink:
That wouldn't have had the double meaning of Vaarsuvius not hiding things from the party anymore.

[stavro375]

Turn the argument on its head: "the 'escape into the rift' plan has been disdained so many times in-comic that it's inevitable that the Order will do it, probably before the end of this book." You'll see both are equally nonsensical.
I'm approaching this comic under the mindset that even trying to enter the rift is such an insane plan that no-one would even consider it. But Haley and Vaarsuvius *do* consider it, and as the Law of Conversation of Detail (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheLawOfConservationOfDetail) states, "Every given detail is important"...
In other words, "Escape into the rift" is such a stupid plan that the most likely reason to mention it in-comic, is to foreshadow its execution.


I like how the Giant set things up. In many cases, I could predict the next step because the author is unoriginal. here, I am not certain what will happen, but I feel confident that whatever does will make sense because the Giant took the time to create the environment. All in all good storytelling.
In other news, one of the great paradoxes of storytelling is that there two times when the fanbase correctly predicts what happens next: when the author's an unoriginal hack who blindly copies every dull cliche in the book, and when the author's a brilliant planner who makes sure each and every plot twist is subtly but concretely foreshadowed...

[Agi Hammerthief]

OK, let's stop the meta-discussion about zimmerwald1915 and continue talking about the actual comic.

I seriously don't care about the Meta Walls Of Text
character development happened...
but what got me ROFL was the "plink" and the squiggly line that followed.

[Jane_Doe]

Believe me it did. Long ago. People have argued it do death, and still every now and then someone will pop up and say "Also, next strip they'll enter the rift!"
This is one strip where this is actually remotely relevant, but it is also one where it was explained why entering the rift is a bad bad bad idea.

Perhaps they could fling a few soldiers in first to see how it goes? V could probably do it with only a couple of rounds, assuming she has a spell ready that can knock an opponent back...

(Okay, okay, sure, V would never agree to destroy someone's soul for the sake of research, but it would at least give them a better idea as to dangerous the portal is :smallwink: !)




Please don't. These suggestions invalidate V's moral growth and make vir look bad for teaching people the wrong lesson. Also, they sound extremely distasteful.

Well, I'm pretty sure that I'd be the only one who could look bad after such a joke... I mean, "No, she did no wrong because I like her!" reflects much worse on the arguer than the subject of the argument.

That said, after a month or so of watching comic discussion threads devolve into bickering over Familicide, I can't say I'm interested in bringing the topic back up :smallsmile: .

[nogall]

So, Burlew, "No Surrender, No Retreat" was taken, eh? :smallwink:

As I see it, the real title can also be applied to V's situation, which would not be the case for "no surrender..."
(Also, I didn't get your reference :P )

[Shale]

I'd buy the new evil (and super-strong) Durkon hearing Roy's objection and then picking up a Dominated soldier and tossing him through as a test.

[Wolv90]

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that Roy's picking precisely the right course of action. If Elan's down there, Team Tarquin may lay off with overkill psion attacks (about which I know absolutely nothing game-rules-wise) and similar interventions which may happen to be AoE, and Elan will make them better at doing what they do. If, while this is going on, Count Durkula has been able to dominate a sufficiently high number of troops this could easily break into the sort of standoff that could prompt Tarquin to toss off a "hrm... well, actually, Mr. Greenilt was pretty impressive here, and you're really sort of sub-par as a hero at the moment, why don't you use him as a mentor and learn from him for a while while I get on with achieving whatever goal I was thinking of anyway, and we'll pick this up once you're done with that Xylon sub-boss you were telling me about."

Or some other equivalent.

I agree, mostly due to this scenario having Tarquin refer to Xylon as a sub-boss. I hear if he calls him that three times he will appear!

[Apricot]

Yes, but this is a serialized story with literally years left to tell. There is only so much that can happen in any given update, and V's story is NOT the main plot of the the comic, ultimately. I'm not going to rush any aspect of a character's arc just to please a vocal minority.

Please rush Belkar's character development if you really do plan on killing him off soon. It would be awful for his story to end only part-told.

[Porthos]

I'm approaching this comic under the mindset that even trying to enter the rift is such an insane plan that no-one would even consider it. But Haley and Vaarsuvius *do* consider it, and as the Law of Conversation of Detail (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheLawOfConservationOfDetail) states, "Every given detail is important"...
In other words, "Escape into the rift" is such a stupid plan that the most likely reason to mention it in-comic, is to foreshadow its execution.


In other news, one of the great paradoxes of storytelling is that there two times when the fanbase correctly predicts what happens next: when the author's an unoriginal hack who blindly copies every dull cliche in the book, and when the author's a brilliant planner who makes sure each and every plot twist is subtly but concretely foreshadowed...

Rich is also on record as saying the Conservation of Detail can be overrated. :smalltongue:

Not that I disagree about RiftWorld ever coming into play. Just noting that some times a red herring is in fact a red herring. :smallwink:

[Burner28]

So close to Roy hearing that confession, and yet so far. You can really feel the tension.

[Doug Lampert]

I'm approaching this comic under the mindset that even trying to enter the rift is such an insane plan that no-one would even consider it. But Haley and Vaarsuvius *do* consider it, and as the Law of Conversation of Detail (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheLawOfConservationOfDetail) states, "Every given detail is important"...
In other words, "Escape into the rift" is such a stupid plan that the most likely reason to mention it in-comic, is to foreshadow its execution.

The law of conservation of detail is at it's most relevant when?

(Read the page you linked if you need to. Or I'll give you a hint, SHORT fiction.) Yes they say it applies to any media, and then they admit that this single trope and applying it innapropriately is probably responsible for more more Epileptic Trees than every other trope combined!

Don't join the crowd, stand out, admit that sometimes a detail is either (a) just world-building or (b) settup for something from the NEXT book or the one after that! Remember, Rich is still foreshadowing stuff for two books from now, it doesn't have to be now even if it IS a Checkov's gun.

Conservation of detail works on things like TV shows, short plays, and short stories where everything needs to contribute because "We have 42 minutes. If we give a detail, it better be important."

This applies to TOotS how?

Anton Chekov wrote mostly short plays, yep, if HIS stage directions had a gun on the wall, it would get used. There's almost nothing wasted in Chekov's works, they're marvels that way.

This applies to what Rich is doing how?

Seriously, conservation of detail is a lousy argument for why they'll go into the rift now.

[Apricot]

So close to Roy hearing that confession, and yet so far. You can really feel the tension.

Durkon is a vampire. I think Roy will be just a little jaded about sudden evil revelations. And hey, if one more party member gets swayed towards evil by whatever mystic powers, they'll be in the majority!

[Burner28]

Durkon is a vampire. I think Roy will be just a little jaded about sudden evil revelations. And hey, if one more party member gets swayed towards evil by whatever mystic powers, they'll be in the majority!

That idea... is messed up!:smallbiggrin:

[Apricot]

That idea... is messed up!:smallbiggrin:

I'm just putting it in context that this is almost banal by now. Not saying that demon-enabled genocide is suddenly a meh thing, but it's not going to be an utter system shock for Roy.

[Doug Lampert]

If he were ABD's brother, sure, but if he were just a husband of her sister and they never had any kids? No blood link.

Yep, and I SPECIFICALLY called out that she calls him her son's uncle and that there are other possible relations than brother and sister that result in uncle.

I have real trouble coming up with an occassion where my mother says "I was visiting Doug's Uncle" rather than "My brother" if she's visiting her brother, but if on the other hand she's visiting my father's brother-in-law, who she has no blood relationship with, THEN she might well say "Doug's Uncle".

There are four possible relations between my mother and my uncle (her brother, her brother-in-lay, my father's brother, my father's brother-in-law), in exactly ONE of these they are brother and sister and that is exactly the one where my mother is LEAST likely to say "my son's uncle" to explain who someone is. The fact that she calls him the YBD's uncle makes it a near certainty that she and he are NOT brother and sister.

[stavro375]

Seriously, conservation of detail is a lousy argument for why they'll go into the rift now.
My argument is one part Conversation of Detail, one part "The vigor with which The Giant is refuting this specific fan theory is highly suspicious." It was an insane fan theory when it wasn't mentioned in-comic, it still was an insane fan theory when it was refuted once in-comic, but when it begins to crop up multiple times?

[Forikroder]

(Okay, okay, sure, V would never agree to destroy someone's soul for the sake of research, but it would at least give them a better idea as to dangerous the portal is !)

V believes its safe so would be willing since the soldiers would in no more danger then V is saying the order should be faced with

[Shale]

I think it's going to happen just because

(a) Now that we know there's a planet in the rift, there's no satisfying end to the story that doesn't reveal what the deal is with said planet;
(b) The Scribblers aren't around to inform us;
(c) And the gods aren't talking;
(d) Thus the most likely way for the Order to find out what's going on with the planet is to go there.

[Paseo H]

Might have also been said already, but concentrating on the fight of your life is not the best place to hear that your elven wizard sold his soul and mass murdered a bunch of dragons. Even if the momentary loss of concentration wouldn't kill him at this particular moment, such knowledge might weigh Roy down once he has to start going HAM again, i.e. when the ring of fire comes down.

[Tsyndrome]

Anyone else brought up the possibility that Serini might be on the Riftworld, and that's why she was un-sendable? Maybe we'll meet her if and when the Order goes through.

[SavageWombat]

I think it's going to happen just because

(a) Now that we know there's a planet in the rift, there's no satisfying end to the story that doesn't reveal what the deal is with said planet;
(b) The Scribblers aren't around to inform us;
(c) And the gods aren't talking;
(d) Thus the most likely way for the Order to find out what's going on with the planet is to go there.

This is perfectly reasonable logic, which I agree with. But please note the absence of an (e) that states a reason why it should happen NOW.

[Fish]

There are a few reasons why the Rift option might be mentioned, all valid; none of them unambiguously illuminate the Order's intent.

• It increases tension. Plans for escape show the Order is desperate. If the Order were saying "yawn, we could hold off these mooks forever" then the tension is gone.

• It reminds the readers what the Snarl is said to be capable of. Not every reader discusses the story daily on the forum or can quote from the Crayons of Time.

• It explains why the Order might not be taking an otherwise reasonable course of action (at least at this time): the risk is too great. The calculus may change in the future if the situation worsens (see "build tension," above).

• If there is no Snarl, the only way to establish the perceived threat is to talk about it.

[Mutant Sheep]

Aside from the "effortess" in the second panel already pointed out, the lack of punctuation in the first panel might qualify. I'm reading a hyphen into it, in any case.

Horray for V moving from acknowledging she should get through the door to nudging it open with her toe!:smallbiggrin:

[y2kyle89]

That said, Elan might actually carry Haley. He's got nothing important to do with his hands while flying, while Haley can still use her bow or her wands while being carried.But then how would Elan play his lute?

[Shale]

This is perfectly reasonable logic, which I agree with. But please note the absence of an (e) that states a reason why it should happen NOW.

For the reason V suggested it. The Order is backed up against the Rift, with no practical means of escape and little hope of victory in a straight fight - if they do take down enough of the army to alarm Tarquin, now they have him, Laurin and Miron to deal with.

Roy is right that they don't know if it's safe or not, but if they're going to enter that world at any point in the story, then it must be safe, or at least not instant death. So I'm expecting the safety of the rift to be tested sometime soon.

[Scow2]

Roy doesn't cut her off. He lets her complete her sentence, then hesitates, then tentatively says he's not really available to listen to V. V then cuts Roy off mid-sentence, demanding to be heard. She is dominating the conversation. From this I inferred that she could have told Roy anything she wanted, at least spoken it out loud even if Roy wasn't really listening. Per the Giant, I inferred incorrectly...but why was it so easy?I think I can explain the situation and how you misconstrued it:
1. There are a total of two ellipsis in the conversation, both around the same word. V tends to speak in a passive, very noncommittal manner (Common is a Second Language!), and she hesitated to use the least-offensive (And possibly least-ideal. People misspeak all the time) word she could come up with to describe the situation. She was also only giving the Preface to the confession, which needs to be expressed in the most circumspect and least shocking manner, to allow Roy to actually prepare to hear and listen to the full confession - otherwise, it would be like talking to a brick wall. Discussion of significant subject matter requires an introduction of the content before the content itself.

Roy let her finish the preface to her confession, because he was probably only half paying attention, and was busy with a dinosaur rider (As the Giant stated). He's also extremely respectful of the rules of communication, letting her get to a decent pause to make sure she was listening when he interrupted. V's interruption wasn't so much "controlling the conversation" as an irritated outburst at being dismissed, while acquiescing to the request to not continue yet, while also expressing her displeasure at it.

[SavageWombat]

For the reason V suggested it. The Order is backed up against the Rift, with no practical means of escape and little hope of victory in a straight fight - if they do take down enough of the army to alarm Tarquin, now they have him, Laurin and Miron to deal with.

Roy is right that they don't know if it's safe or not, but if they're going to enter that world at any point in the story, then it must be safe, or at least not instant death. So I'm expecting the safety of the rift to be tested sometime soon.

But they're not backed up against it - it's outside their little circle. They'd have to fight TO the rift.

I also think that if Tarquin and crew were going to attack, they'd have pitched in already. There's some reason Tarquin doesn't want to - maybe it's beneath him? or genre-appropriate? - and I don't think Roy's defense will change that reason.

They need another escape route, one that's not immediately obvious - wait a second... let me look something up.

If only Haley had a Portable Hole to go with her Bags of Holding - she could blow the whole party to the Astral Plane. (Two Bags of Holding won't do it.)

She could put Durkon in a bag, though. He's not a living creature any more. I wonder if that would help?

[stsasser]

*plink*, V, and 'I'm so proud of you!!!!' FOUR exclamation points!

That was wonderful.:smallsmile:

[Mike Havran]

Oh man, Roy is starting to play on Elan's field. Everybody knows that when the heroes are lumped together against impossible odds they will always prevail! (well, there can be a token death - Belkar? :smallamused:)

[Shale]

But they're not backed up against it - it's outside their little circle. They'd have to fight TO the rift.


Well, yeah, but clearly they can carve a path through the infantry if they want to. It's getting away that's impractical.

[DaggerPen]

Wait... so did V tell Roy and we just skipped over it, or?

[Gnoman]

But then how would Elan play his lute?

Maybe he has another kazoo.

[DaggerPen]

I knew there was going to be a problem somehow.

V not going into more details is a concession to Roy effectively saying, "Why are we talking about this right now?" The point is that Roy now knows that there is something that happened that V hasn't told him.

Or, from a meta point of view, the point is that I don't need to spend three pages talking about this right in the middle of a battle scene just to show that V has decided to tell Roy at the first possible opportunity.

Aha, that answers my question. Thanks, Giant.

[zyxophoj]

I love Roy's casual badassery in panel 7.

Fetching Haley and Elan is useful - Durkon's dominated dudes will benefit from Elan's song, for one thing.

:roy: "What we need to do is find a way out of here that is hard for them to follow"

...but how, exactly? I can't think of any reasonable way to do that. Running towards the soul-eating god-destroying monster is kind of a desperation move. If Malack's staff of Munchkinry has enough charges for 5 casts of Protection from Daylight and 5 more casts of Insta-vampire, then there is an escape option, but it's not pretty. Can Blackwing talk the theropod subset of Tarquin's army out of attacking? Yeah, I think I'd better stop before my ideas get silly.

[LadyEowyn]

Yay, new comic!

Rich - I apologize profusely if this has already been pointed out, but it should be spelled "glamoured".

Other than that, great comic! I like that V tried to tell them right away, and it makes complete sense that their reaction would be "...we're kind of in the middle of a battle here".

Also, nice double meaning in the title.

[madtinker]

I knew there was going to be a problem somehow.

V not going into more details is a concession to Roy effectively saying, "Why are we talking about this right now?" The point is that Roy now knows that there is something that happened that V hasn't told him.

Or, from a meta point of view, the point is that I don't need to spend three pages talking about this right in the middle of a battle scene just to show that V has decided to tell Roy at the first possible opportunity.

I saw that the dialogue referred to has been picked apart, but I thought it fit with their characters and the situation perfectly. Spot on again, Giant!

And for all the people correcting glamered, check this link (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Glamer_Subschool).

[DaggerPen]

Anyone else find it odd they're talking about escaping and then Roy stabs a dinosaur right in the neck? I wonder if they could captures some of them and ride out? Maybe do it with a few of the flying ones instead?

Actually, that's not a bad idea. V has Charm Monster, right?

[Shale]

Has, yes. Prepared, probably not. They were prepping to fight human illusionists, not monsters.

[Vectner]

On a completely different subject, I just want to say that the color pallet of this panel is just amazing. I love it!

[Tsyndrome]

If Malack's staff of Munchkinry has enough charges for 5 casts of Protection from Daylight and 5 more casts of Insta-vampire, then there is an escape option, but it's not pretty. Can Blackwing talk the theropod subset of Tarquin's army out of attacking? Yeah, I think I'd better stop before my ideas get silly.

Maybe the sun on Riftworld won't kill vampires, cuz it's a different one? They did something like that on Angel back in the day.

[bluedarky]

Do you think that the rest of the party will really be all that upset over it?

Killing black dragons is what heroes DO. Wiping out a whole bunch of them who personally threatened V's family is just an exercise in efficiency. V's only mistake was in forgetting that dragons and humans can hybridize.

As for odd words in the dictionary, Glamer is still in it, and now they've added Twerk. "Amulet" has been removed, though. Can you believe that? Is the dictionary really so dull that it has to cut out perfectly good words to make room for stupid new ones?

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/VaarsuviusNew.pngHey guys, I killed a load of black dragons with a single spell and probably accidentally killed off the entire bloodline that was guarding the gate you just blew up and were hoping would be around to help defend it.

That'll go over real well.

[Gift Jeraff]

Has, yes. Prepared, probably not. They were prepping to fight human illusionists, not monsters.

Charm Monster works on all creatures not immune to mind-affecting spells. Besides, they were prepping to fight the Linear Guild and team up with the Draketooth Clan.

[Bulldog Psion]

Tactical error: since V has an empathic link with Blackwing, wouldn't it better to leave the bird with Roy to serve as an "intercom" of sorts?

[multilis]

We all know where this predictable turn of plot is really going.

We have seen Haley passing love notes by arrow to Elan in middle of big battle.

v passed vast number of magic rune notes to Belkar earlier in story. Belkar wouldn't have kept reading them unless he was also interested.

V is now in confession mode.

V is single now after divorce. Enough time has passed that Belkar is not tied to desperate hope of Miko coming back. Between the battle and prophesy they both know time may be short.

This was somewhat fresh 25 years ago in Star Wars, but now just boring Trope.

Belligerent Sexual Tension
"Wonderful girl! Either I'm gonna kill her, or I'm beginning to like her!"
— Han Solo, A New Hope


Obviously in #921 V and Belkar will confess their mutual desire... unless of course Rich reads this and changes comic as result.

[Bulldog Psion]

Enough time has passed that Belkar is not tied to desperate hope of Miko coming back.

I laughed so hard at this IRL that my dogs woke up and barked. :smallbiggrin: I really appreciate your style of humor -- bravo!!!

[eaglewingz]

heh

V lampshading the Playground.

I probably shouldn't find that as funny as I do.

[Kareasint]

Tactical error: since V has an empathic link with Blackwing, wouldn't it better to leave the bird with Roy to serve as an "intercom" of sorts?

Not really since the orders were to go get Elan and Haley to regroup. V should be right back.

Here is my interpretation of panels 5 through 8
Panels 5 and 6 show V explaining what Blackwing saw in the Rift and the reason why V did not mention it earlier.
Panel 7: Roy recognizes that V has something to say but wants to put the discussion off until later. V responds to try and convince Roy to consider using the Rift as a valid tactical plan.
Panel 8: Roy receives V's input but explains his decision not to enter the Rift because there are too many unknowns. He can handle being killed again but he cannot handle being "unmade" and leaving Xykon with a free path to do what he wants.

After the fight is over and they have more time, Roy and V will talk about what V did.

Blackwing has been pushing V towards this for a while. It was only natural for the familiar to express its feelings at that point.

It is in Belkar's best interests to continue to dodge though. The Protection spell will eventually discharge after it prevents enough damage. The "plink" was classic though.

[MtlGuy]

I like how Blackwing has become a Jimminy Cricket type. I should have recognized it sooner.

[Syncrogti]

I am sensing a battle between V and the Psion. I am looking forward to that, for sure. I also love the double duty Roy is doing with that sword by killing the rider and the ridden in one stab. Is that even possible in D&D?

[chronoreverse]

I am sensing a battle between V and the Psion. I am looking forward to that, for sure. I also love the double duty Roy is doing with that sword by killing the rider and the ridden in one stab. Is that even possible in D&D?

(Great) Cleave

[David Argall]

Whoa front page and looks like "Jump into the rift" Is off the table while Roy suffers from a critical case of common sense. Ah well maybe next time XD
It is off the table for a strip or two, but the alternative to facing the soul-destroying monster is slow death by minion. [And Roy deems standing and fighting as hopeless.] Given 2 bad choices, neither is going to be off the tale for long.
My own bet is that they stay out of the rift, this time, but it is not easy to see how they stay out of the rift permanently. Either way, some miracle is going to rescue the party. [tho maybe not right away.]

[Blisstake]

Tactical error: since V has an empathic link with Blackwing, wouldn't it better to leave the bird with Roy to serve as an "intercom" of sorts?

The Emphatic link also is just emotional information. There's a limit to what type of information could be relayed back to Roy.

Also, maybe V will find a phylactery that needs to be thrown into the Rift after his flight is dispelled. :smalltongue:

[Solara]

Do you think that the rest of the party will really be all that upset over it?

Killing black dragons is what heroes DO. Wiping out a whole bunch of them who personally threatened V's family is just an exercise in efficiency. V's only mistake was in forgetting that dragons and humans can hybridize.

Even if they don't care about the dragons, the whole 'rented soul to demons who can now take you out of the action anytime they want and screw us all' is something they might be a little ipset about.

[dps]

I love Roy's casual badassery in panel 7.

:roy: "What we need to do is find a way out of here that is hard for them to follow"

...but how, exactly? I can't think of any reasonable way to do that. Running towards the soul-eating god-destroying monster is kind of a desperation move. If Malack's staff of Munchkinry has enough charges for 5 casts of Protection from Daylight and 5 more casts of Insta-vampire, then there is an escape option, but it's not pretty. Can Blackwing talk the theropod subset of Tarquin's army out of attacking? Yeah, I think I'd better stop before my ideas get silly.

Beyond anything else, IF it is actually safe for the Order to jump through the rift to the world within, what makes it hard for Tarquin and company to follow?

[MtlGuy]

Even if they don't care about the dragons, the whole 'rented soul to demons who can now take you out of the action anytime they want and screw us all' is something they might be a little ipset about.

I think V's rented soul might be the key somehow to turning the tables on the IFCC. I bet Haley might have some ideas.

[eilandesq]

Turn the argument on its head: "the 'escape into the rift' plan has been disdained so many times in-comic that it's inevitable that the Order will do it, probably before the end of this book." You'll see both are equally nonsensical.

Which suggests that if it *is* undertaken, it will be for a reason that justifies the obvious risk of destruction of their very souls in a universe where the afterlife is an absolutely proven fact, and where they are apparently the last thing standing between an epic level lich and control of the world (and in probable reality, giving an evil high priest with an axe to grind effective control of the world). Roy is correct to conclude that even the grave prospect of all of their deaths in this battle does not rise to that level, as they might be raised/resurrected by some entity in time to oppose Xykon and Redcloak again for the crucial moment.

[Silverionmox]

Technically it's possible to escape flying: they don't need to get away quickly, they just need to get high enough to get out of combat range. If the army is daft enough to follow them through the desert, that'll only ease the next battle due to attrition.
V can carry Roy, the other fly spell can serve for Elan and Haley. Durkon can become insubstantial or a bat... and finish the last drop from Belkar. Belkar then can be put in a bag of holding and carried, and will rise on his own in three days, even if they don't manage to resurrect him. Of course, there are many, many good reasons *not* to suck Belkar dry.

The rift won't be an escape from Tarquin, in any case. He's got an air force.

[AutomatedTeller]

I think the way to get away from Tarquin is to make it more expensive to kill them than to let them go. V may well tip the balance to Tarquin saying "screw it, I'll let them go on"

[Klanos]

Technically it's possible to escape flying: they don't need to get away quickly, they just need to get high enough to get out of combat range. If the army is daft enough to follow them through the desert, that'll only ease the next battle due to attrition.
V can carry Roy, the other fly spell can serve for Elan and Haley. Durkon can become insubstantial or a bat... and finish the last drop from Belkar. Belkar then can be put in a bag of holding and carried, and will rise on his own in three days, even if they don't manage to resurrect him. Of course, there are many, many good reasons *not* to suck Belkar dry.

The rift won't be an escape from Tarquin, in any case. He's got an air force.

Wow, nice thinking. That's actually quite smart. I don't think Belkar will be able to fight much, especially if he's one bolt from dying, not considering the protection spell.

[M.A.D]

Huh, I thought the effects for Protection from Arrow is more like this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0436.html)?

[Kish]

Even if they don't care about the dragons,
Based on Rich's recent posts, I think we can cross that right off without finishing the sentence.

[Mauve Shirt]

Blackwing is my new most favorite character. :smallbiggrin:

[NihhusHuotAliro]

Blackwing is my new most favorite character. :smallbiggrin:
I wholeheartedly agree, sir.

[RebelRogue]

Rich - I apologize profusely if this has already been pointed out, but it should be spelled "glamoured".
As has been pointed out several times in the thread, glamered is a perfectly fine, if somewhat archaic, word.

[Fish]

:roy: "What we need to do is find a way out of here that is hard for them to follow."
Oh, right, like a

...giant purple worm?

[Tsyndrome]

Blackwing is my new most favorite character. :smallbiggrin:

Yep of all the new characters introduced in this book, Blackwing is def. the best. Any idea if we'll learn more about where this mysterious raven we've never seen before comes from? :smallbiggrin:

[Bulldog Psion]

Well, Haley continues to be my favorite character. But Blackwing is getting close to second place. :smallwink:

[Amphiox]

I doubt we will see any extensive "confession scene" from V, for the simple reason that we, the audience, have already seen all the pertinent details.

I'm guessing the more likely format will be something like: Panel 1 - V begins to talk, Panel 2 - beat, Panel 3 - V: "...and that's what happened". Everyone else staring with the facial expression appropriate to their character and alignment.

Then we get on with the actual interesting part, which is how the rest of the Order will react to the knowledge of what V has done.

The conversation with Roy sets up the possibility that the first active step that V will take on her road to redemption shall be "If we are unsure what the Rift will do to souls, then let us test it, on mine." Followed by voluntarily going through the rift.

(Note that V somehow arranging to get her soul unmade will definitively thwart whatever plans the IFCC might have with direct regards to V's soul in the specific.)

[eaglewingz]

Huh, I thought the effects for Protection from Arrow is more like this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0436.html)?

There are a lot of variables. Velocity, impact angle, poison-coated arrowhead,
Rule of Funny...

[i6uuaq]

Still holding out for a splash panel/page of the order jumping into the rift for the end of the book.

Haven't read whole thread.

Still think they will end up in the rift.

They're the OotS - running is what they do!

They've just about cleared the mooks blocking their way to the rift. Miron and Laurin are yet to join the fight.

Edit:
Two ways I see this happening.

One is that Laurin drops an AoE spell on them. Belkar dies, causing Roy to recognize that retreat is the only option.

Two is that they get blasted INTO the rift deliberately by Laurin.

[DaggerPen]

Creatures in a Bag of Holding can survive for 10 minutes before they suffocate, right? That's quite a lot of combat rounds. Would it be possible for the Order to put Belkar in one of Haley's Bags of Holding? Then Durkon can use Gaseous Form or turn into a bat, V can grab Roy, and V can cast Fly on Elan and have him carry Haley (who can then use her free arms to shoot if need be). Then they can flee for 10 minutes before they have to get Belkar out, which gets even easier if Durkon can take the Bag of Holding with Belkar in it with him when he Gaseous Forms, as items transform with vampires when they do so. Then they flee as fast as they can fly, and if they have to split up then Durkon can prepare three Sendings to the other two groups after Dusk, Send to Roy and Belkar to get rendezvous coordinates, Send to Haley and Elan to inform them of that, and have a spare Sending if things go wrong.

Actually, wait, how many of them can fit into a Bag of Holding? Can they all squeeze into one of Haley's and have Spiky teleport them in the bag to somewhere safe, then clamber out there?

Of course, neither of those is a very dramatic solution, so they're probably not happening. Stealing some dinosaurs and riding them to freedom might work, though.

Or, escaping into the Rift, I guess, if they can find some way to prove that it's safe. The ocean seems likely to count as running water, though, which could be a problem for Durkon.

[Yoyoyo]

Good job V! And Roy killing the Dino and rider in one move was so casually awesome I'm at a loss.

[gerryq]

That seems to rule out the Rift as an escape route, for now.

I think that's (part of) the purpose of the strip.

But what *could* be done as a tactical option is for Blackwing to fly in and take a look around. Though Roy could argue that just because it seems safe for the moment in there, the Snarl could appear at any moment. In any case, I suspect Rich just wants to think for the future, when people are reading the strip without debates on this forum, and when potential options aren't taken, there needs to be a signal to the reader at some point that, yes, this was considered, and no, the story's going another way.

[gerryq]

As for odd words in the dictionary, Glamer is still in it, and now they've added Twerk. "Amulet" has been removed, though. Can you believe that? Is the dictionary really so dull that it has to cut out perfectly good words to make room for stupid new ones?

I for one hail our new twerking overlords.

[NihhusHuotAliro]

It's also in-character - I see Roy as the type to get annoyed by people saying 'could care less'. Perhaps there's a correlation between linguistic prescriptivism and Lawfulness? :smalltongue:

Hey, don't insult Linguistic prescriptivism by comparing it to lawfulness.

We are much more long-suffering, mocked, and despised.

[Tsyndrome]

As for odd words in the dictionary, Glamer is still in it, and now they've added Twerk. "Amulet" has been removed, though. Can you believe that? Is the dictionary really so dull that it has to cut out perfectly good words to make room for stupid new ones?

What dictionary is this that doesn't have "amulet?" The news stories I see about "twerk" being added to the dictionary refer to the OED, which isn't in the business of removing words, even if they haven't been used in hundreds of years.

[Yoyoyo]

I doubt we will see any extensive "confession scene" from V, for the simple reason that we, the audience, have already seen all the pertinent details.

I'm guessing the more likely format will be something like: Panel 1 - V begins to talk, Panel 2 - beat, Panel 3 - V: "...and that's what happened". Everyone else staring with the facial expression appropriate to their character and alignment.

Then we get on with the actual interesting part, which is how the rest of the Order will react to the knowledge of what V has done.

The conversation with Roy sets up the possibility that the first active step that V will take on her road to redemption shall be "If we are unsure what the Rift will do to souls, then let us test it, on mine." Followed by voluntarily going through the rift.

(Note that V somehow arranging to get her soul unmade will definitively thwart whatever plans the IFCC might have with direct regards to V's soul in the specific.)

I think you're right on with the shocked faces thing (although could happen off screen across two different strips). But don't think V is quite at the ready to sacrifice her soul stage yet. I also don't think Roy or the rest of the party would let her or want her to. In a way, if she were to do that, it would be something of a selfish act. Right now she is too important to the party to be lost on such a risk.

[Lossoth]

This is terrific storytelling.
Keep up the good work Giant.

[Demolator]

Hooray for character dynamics!

[Amphiox]

I think you're right on with the shocked faces thing (although could happen off screen across two different strips). But don't think V is quite at the ready to sacrifice her soul stage yet. I also don't think Roy or the rest of the party would let her or want her to. In a way, if she were to do that, it would be something of a selfish act. Right now she is too important to the party to be lost on such a risk.

It would depend on how certain V is that the rift is safe. If she is fairly certain, then the risk she takes is small, in her own mind, and the failure of whatever part of the IFCC's plans that involve her soul that would arise in the off chance she was wrong and her soul was destroyed would be the bonus.

The act would be one of *convincing* Roy, the party leader, than the option of going through the Rift was viable. If the situation had turned particularly desperate (say the Order is running out of heals and running low on hitpoints, the enemy mooks are still coming in undeterminable numbers, or Tarquin and team has just entered the fray fresh and at full strength) it would really be an act of saving the team at the cost of exposing herself to a risk that she reasons is not prohibitively high.

[Amphiox]

:roy: "What we need to do is find a way out of here that is hard for them to follow"


There may not actually be anywhere on the Western Continent that they can actually go that would be hard for Tarquin to follow. Let's not forget that Laurin can "gate" large armies practically anywhere.

[Cerlis]

What "doesn't get"? She had time to come clean in full if she wanted, as shown by the two long gaps in her spiel. She chose to keep concealing things, and chose her words very carefully to make it seem like she was confessing when in fact she was saying nothing at all. And it worked, at least on Blackwing and probably on a number of forumites.


Omayn.

Insulting grossly sized assumptions are fun aren't they?

people are pleased she took the first step. And now in the future when there is an appropriate time they can talk about it. If Roy objected to that small amount of dialogue what do you think he'd say about starting am major discussion.

Unless V was suppose to say "I murdered alot of dragons as well as the draketooths!" in which Roy would probably say "....ok...Well that explains alot. Now do you have any other ideas on how we can survive so we can talk about it later?!"

Also...Carefully worded it so she didnt have to admit it? V carefully words everything he says!

[Yoyoyo]

It would depend on how certain V is that the rift is safe. If she is fairly certain, then the risk she takes is small, in her own mind, and the failure of whatever part of the IFCC's plans that involve her soul that would arise in the off chance she was wrong and her soul was destroyed would be the bonus.

The act would be one of *convincing* Roy, the party leader, than the option of going through the Rift was viable. If the situation had turned particularly desperate (say the Order is running out of heals and running low on hitpoints, the enemy mooks are still coming in undeterminable numbers, or Tarquin and team has just entered the fray fresh and at full strength) it would really be an act of saving the team at the cost of exposing herself to a risk that she reasons is not prohibitively high.

True. But how certain is s/he? V and Blackwing suspect the rift is not as they have been told, but that is pretty thin stuff to convince Roy with. But if things get too desperate, like you say, Roy may not have any other option.

Curious, does V think the IFCC is bigger threat than Xykon? Or are they both aiming for same goals?

[Solara]

Based on Rich's recent posts, I think we can cross that right off without finishing the sentence.

I was posting a counter to that post (you know, the one I quoted) that was stating the party might not even care. The point was that even if they didn't, it wouldn't matter in terms of how pissed they have a right to be, if they wanted to indulge in that instead of focusing on saving the world.

And yes I know what Rich's opinion is, but the characters have their own personalities. (And the message of 'black dragons are people too and what V did was awful' has already been pretty firmly established, I see no reason to hammer it in.) No matter how awful V himself feels about the dragons, the others will likely be a lot more focused on the Draketooths due to their connection to the gate...and no matter how horrified Roy is about all those poor people, humans and dragons alike, who were instantly and painlessly teleported to an afterlife they're probably immensely enjoying, I expect Roy will be practical enough to worry about the bigger issue for now, and hopefully V's further wallowing-in-remorse episodes won't put the party at risk.

But what with the fiends being able to yank him off anytime now he's definitely a liability. Though I suppose Roy will try his best to work around that just like with Belkar and Durkon...

[Kish]

all those poor people, humans and dragons alike, who were instantly and painlessly teleported to an afterlife they're probably immensely enjoying,

...

Oh. Good. Lord.

[Cerlis]

Seriously... V is fully aware of vir overly long-winded manner of speech.

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/VaarsuviusNew.pngGeneral, you may have noticed that my explanations tend to consume more time than my plans themselves. Given that time is a factor, I simply say that it is imperative that you not send any more troops into the breach now.

This explanation can certainly break the "talking is a free action" rule, V has managed it once (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0186.html) and now is certainly not the best time to repeat that feat.

V chose the words like ve usually does, but they did include words "embarassed" and "shockingly poor moral character" that V never before applied to virself.

And I don't think that the separate ovals are an indication of long pauses, they are just an indication of limited free space on the panel and just how verbose V is.

Yes, "talking is a free action" is a trope often employed in this comic. (a direct joke no less)

But in GAME rules thats only short reasonable sentences. If a character is going to perform a soliloquy it might take up more time. For instance you can attempt to make a rushed diplomacy check at a -10 penalty (because you are attempting to change a person's attitude with a sentence or sentences that take 6 seconds to say) as a Full Round Action.

They COULD have "this talk" here and now, but the most important thing is Not Not-talking, its Talking About the Right Thing. And survival is more important than last minute confessions.


If V dies before he gets to confess anything thats his problem and he'll just have to get over it like an adult who's had over a century to learn how to
"Deal".

Saving the world comes before guilt trips.

[Everyl]

Speaking of Durkon: Isn't he going to have to feed sometime soon? The primary in-story worry has been surviving until dusk so Durkon can pray and reload his spells (and I don't know as that's a given in and of itself... he's um, "switching wireless service providers" rather drastically). But I think D's need to feed is going to be a bigger concern soon. I know there's a nice convenient and growing pile of ex-mooks to work with for that, at the moment, but assuming he survives and accompanies the order, I've been wondering how this will develop long-term. Roy would need to do some increasingly large looking the other way when it comes to this. I don't know as Durkon "stepping out for a quick bite" is the same as say tolerating or reining in Belkar. There's bloodthirsty and then there's bloodthirsty, is what I'm sayin'.


Durkon is high enough in level to cast Restoration, which can fully restore all Constitution drain that the recipient has suffered in a single casting. The material component is a little pricey, but the Order has already been shown to have diamond dust in stock, and they can probably get more later more easily than they can justify to themselves Durkon murdering people to survive. Basically, feeding Durkon just became really expensive, but not necessarily inherently murderous.

And Durkon already drank nearly all of Belkar's Constitution. We don't know the character sheets, but being a warrior-type, Belkar probably has more Constitution than your average person, so Durkon's not likely to be hungry again immediately.

[Scifne]

Love the arrow bouncing off Belkar. Great visual moment !

[OoTLink]

Huzzah. Roy is too impatient to listen to Vaarsuvius and will just blow them off every time they bring up something.

Rather typic of Roy.

[Cerlis]

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/VaarsuviusNew.pngHey guys, I killed a load of black dragons with a single spell and probably accidentally killed off the entire bloodline that was guarding the gate you just blew up and were hoping would be around to help defend it.

That'll go over real well.

Well they might have helped against the linear guild......or completely hindered and stopped and killed the order of the stick until Xykon showed up and killed them all.


Egad! its a good thing V killed off the Draketooth family!

[Zolem]

Isn't it fun to laugh at ourselves?

Indeed Aliorn Princess of Friendship, indeed. You could also laugh at the homeless as you steal their cardboard box homes and then give them to small children to play in meaning that if the hobo wants their home back they'll need to steal it back from small children making them cry....but that would be wrong. And I'm Neutral Good so I should know. So let's just stick to laughing at ourselves.

*plink*

[KillianHawkeye]

Seriously, though -- a character mentioning a plan once could be anything. But two characters mentioning the same plan? That's a pattern.

Technically, a single occurrence could just be random. Two occurrences could just be coincidence. It's not until there are three occurrences that a pattern can definitively be established.

[137beth]

I love how people were all like "ooooh, V can't do anything, V is now totally useless and can never contribute, ever!" and now V completely turned the fight around:smallsmile:

[Dakaran]

Interesting as always, Rich! :smallsmile:

I'm back to wondering if the Order will end up heading into the rift, despite Roy's vehement stance against it. I kind of think they'll be forced to go in.

[Throknor]

There are a lot of variables. Velocity, impact angle, poison-coated arrowhead,
Rule of Funny...

The fact the spell was stoneskin enters into it, though still a dash of rule of funny as I would have expected it to stick in like they had with Durkon.

[dps]

Yep of all the new characters introduced in this book, Blackwing is def. the best. Any idea if we'll learn more about where this mysterious raven we've never seen before comes from? :smallbiggrin:

One problem is that Blackwing was introduced loooonnngg before the current book.

[Solara]

...

Oh. Good. Lord.

I love how deadly serious everyone on this forum is about every possible thing. I bet you guys are fun to be around IRL. :smallannoyed:

[Ghost Nappa]

V......sort of admits it, I guess. "I did some stuff I'm ashamed of," doesn't have quite the same oomph as "I sold my soul to fiends and then wiped out the people guarding this gate," but it's a start. With luck there'll be time for the full long-winded explanation later.

People forget how crucial it is to keep trying, even if they screw it up now and then....You...well, your record is full of grey spots, but you never stop working at improving it. That's what's important. To us, anyway. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0490.html)


One problem is that Blackwing was introduced loooonnngg before the current book.

As a story element? Yes. As far back as Comic #3.

As a Character? No. Blackwing's introduction as a character is easily Post-Familicide.

[Skull the Troll]

...and no matter how horrified Roy is about all those poor people, humans and dragons alike, who were instantly and painlessly teleported to an afterlife they're probably immensely enjoying, I expect Roy will be practical enough to worry about the bigger issue for now, and hopefully V's further wallowing-in-remorse episodes won't put the party at risk.


Seriously? First off so Xykon is a good guy cause everyone he kills is better off?!? Secondly, if the black dragons are evil they really aren't supposed to be enjoying what happens in the afterlife. The precept of the game system says that everyone goes to a karmic afterlife.

[Tsyndrome]

One problem is that Blackwing was introduced loooonnngg before the current book.

:roy: V, I think I would remember seeing a bird hanging around this whole time... I don't understand why you're trying so hard to convince us that it's been there all along when it clearly hasn't.

[luc258]

One problem is that Blackwing was introduced loooonnngg before the current book.

Does "that bird that Haley named" count as introduction?:smallwink:

[ti'esar]

I love how deadly serious everyone on this forum is about every possible thing. I bet you guys are fun to be around IRL. :smallannoyed:

In Kish's defense, it is not only possible but almost certain that someone has tried to make that argument in a non-joking fashion before.

[Bulldog Psion]

I doubt we will see any extensive "confession scene" from V, for the simple reason that we, the audience, have already seen all the pertinent details.

I'm guessing the more likely format will be something like: Panel 1 - V begins to talk, Panel 2 - beat, Panel 3 - V: "...and that's what happened". Everyone else staring with the facial expression appropriate to their character and alignment.



I suspect that you're correct about the abbreviation of that explanation. What expressions will the others have, though?

Roy, Elan, Haley -- shock.

Belkar - a sinister smirk of comradeship, or a scowl of envy?

[Domino Quartz]

I love how deadly serious everyone on this forum is about every possible thing. I bet you guys are fun to be around IRL. :smallannoyed:

It's less that they're deadly serious about everything and more that they can't read your tone of voice through text. And if you're wondering why they would think you were serious...you would really be surprised at some of the arguments people have made on these forums.