unseenmage
2013-09-20, 02:39 PM
I received an answer form the RAW Q&A thread some time ago that I just wasn't happy with at the time, but could not express my dissatisfaction appropriately clearly even if that thread had been the correct place to do so.
The question was in regards to Shapesand and how it interacts with the Shrink Item spell and the Animate Objects spell. I was told that an Animated Object Shapesand cannot be reformed via Wis checks any longer and that Shrink Item would only shrink one grain of the Shapesand because it says 'touched object'. I believe both of these to be false.
Shapesand is an alchemical substance. By RAW, IIRC, alchemy is a non-magical procedure and alchemical items aren't considered magic items. This means that spells like Shrink Item, Animate Objects, Minor Servitor, Hardening, Augment Object, and the Matter Manipulation power function on them.
The definitions of what constitutes an "object" in the game are somewhat nebulous. Taking the above alchemical item example, some DMs rule that alchemy is too weird to be mundane and that sticky fire, wyvern poison, and mentally controllable sand are all magic. And that's fine. But I'm not interested in interpretations so much as I am in what the rules say.
As I've said before, if I'm going to break the rules or ask another DM to do so, I want to know what the rules say first.
Shrink Item shrinking only one grain of sand for Shapesand would be like shrinking only one link of a chain or only the lid of a flask but not the flask itself. Only one buckle but not the saddle, only one stitch instead of the shirt.
To me, the RAW is that these items are all listed as a singular item and that the spell only cares about what that item is defined to be by the text. You don't buy, carry, nor utilize Shapesand by the grain just as you don't use chains by the link.
Mind, taking this too far can have it's consequences as well, say ruling that you can only shrink the wrist cuffs of a set of manacles and that another casting would be required to shrink the chain. That would be just as inaccurate as shrinking just one link of the chain or one grain of the Shapesand.
Animate Objects Shapesand. To me this again is a case of what the RAW says. No where does Animate Objects say that a chain can't still be used as a chain, or that a door can't still be a door. One could still set fire to animated wood or empty water from an animated flask.
But here we come to a question that I've asked about before, do powders, liquids, gasses, or energies (a campfire) count as objects. The answer is often a resounding no.
The only RAI I've uncovered for it is that an item is made up of component parts, that a substance that can no longer be reduced into component parts is instead a substance. By RAW terms, if it doesn't have Hardness and hp then it can't be an object. All objects have hardness and hp, even if the Hardness is zero.
Does Shapesand have Hardness or hp? When it is sand? Not that I can find. When it is formed into something else, yes then it does. Does any of this preclude it's being affected by 'target object' spells? I'm not sure.
I'd like for alchemical items to be just as affected by Shrink Item and Animate Objects as a chain or a saddle, but that makes me biased.
So I ask you Playground, what's the verdict? Are alchemical items affected by 'target object' spells and powers? And if so, what are the ramifications and consequences?
The question was in regards to Shapesand and how it interacts with the Shrink Item spell and the Animate Objects spell. I was told that an Animated Object Shapesand cannot be reformed via Wis checks any longer and that Shrink Item would only shrink one grain of the Shapesand because it says 'touched object'. I believe both of these to be false.
Shapesand is an alchemical substance. By RAW, IIRC, alchemy is a non-magical procedure and alchemical items aren't considered magic items. This means that spells like Shrink Item, Animate Objects, Minor Servitor, Hardening, Augment Object, and the Matter Manipulation power function on them.
The definitions of what constitutes an "object" in the game are somewhat nebulous. Taking the above alchemical item example, some DMs rule that alchemy is too weird to be mundane and that sticky fire, wyvern poison, and mentally controllable sand are all magic. And that's fine. But I'm not interested in interpretations so much as I am in what the rules say.
As I've said before, if I'm going to break the rules or ask another DM to do so, I want to know what the rules say first.
Shrink Item shrinking only one grain of sand for Shapesand would be like shrinking only one link of a chain or only the lid of a flask but not the flask itself. Only one buckle but not the saddle, only one stitch instead of the shirt.
To me, the RAW is that these items are all listed as a singular item and that the spell only cares about what that item is defined to be by the text. You don't buy, carry, nor utilize Shapesand by the grain just as you don't use chains by the link.
Mind, taking this too far can have it's consequences as well, say ruling that you can only shrink the wrist cuffs of a set of manacles and that another casting would be required to shrink the chain. That would be just as inaccurate as shrinking just one link of the chain or one grain of the Shapesand.
Animate Objects Shapesand. To me this again is a case of what the RAW says. No where does Animate Objects say that a chain can't still be used as a chain, or that a door can't still be a door. One could still set fire to animated wood or empty water from an animated flask.
But here we come to a question that I've asked about before, do powders, liquids, gasses, or energies (a campfire) count as objects. The answer is often a resounding no.
The only RAI I've uncovered for it is that an item is made up of component parts, that a substance that can no longer be reduced into component parts is instead a substance. By RAW terms, if it doesn't have Hardness and hp then it can't be an object. All objects have hardness and hp, even if the Hardness is zero.
Does Shapesand have Hardness or hp? When it is sand? Not that I can find. When it is formed into something else, yes then it does. Does any of this preclude it's being affected by 'target object' spells? I'm not sure.
I'd like for alchemical items to be just as affected by Shrink Item and Animate Objects as a chain or a saddle, but that makes me biased.
So I ask you Playground, what's the verdict? Are alchemical items affected by 'target object' spells and powers? And if so, what are the ramifications and consequences?