Balancing Cloistered Cleric? [3.5]

[Firechanter]

Okay, probably all the optimizers will now cry in anger, but I think that the Cloistered Cleric is just a too powerful class option on an already powerful class. However, I wouldn't want to ban the option entirely, as the concept of a "scholarly western monk" is very in-theme.
But, between Divine Power and various Devotion Feats, imho that half BAB and light armour and 1HP just don't balance the added perks, i.e. a third domain and heaps and heaps of skill points and added spells.

What especially annoys me is the tendency to single-level dips -- i.e. "get three Devotion feats and the TU attempts to fuel them and give up practically nothing in return".

Does anyone else feel that way? How would you solve that dilemma?

I was thinking maybe
- spread out Domain access over the levels a bit so they don't get everything at once.
- reduce Fort save to low progression
- remove Divine Power and Righteous Might from spell list.

Just some ideas, however. Thoughts?

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

The dip is competitive but not really a MUST HAVE in most builds. I don't see how it's so overpowered, just a useful tradeoff between BaB/other features and some devotion feats + skills. Often enough the benefit relative to regular cleric dip is a +1/+1 and some skills versus 1 HP. If you're using fractional BaB that's another cost.

If you're going full cleric, then the overpowered thing is DMM with nightsticks; otherwise a Cloistered Cleric is going to have quite a bit of wind-up before Zilla'ing out. Might as well just cast Righteous Wrath of the Faithful on everyone else and sit back.

If you wanted to really enforce the scholarly archetype for a full Cloistered Cleric then I'd be okay with everything except delayed domain access.

[Firechanter]

The dip is competitive but not really a MUST HAVE in most builds. I don't see how it's so overpowered, just a useful tradeoff between BaB/other features and some devotion feats + skills. Often enough the benefit relative to regular cleric dip is a +1/+1 and some skills versus 1 HP. If you're using fractional BaB that's another cost.

Well the "tradeoff" is not really one. You give up 1 point of attack, but by way of Knowledge Devotion you immediately get back _at least_ +1 attack _and_ damage against most enemies. And then two Devotion feats on top -- think Travel and Law. And as opposed to taking those feats as a Mundane with your level slots, you also get to trigger them several times per day.

It's not just a "competitive" dip, but probably one of the two most powerful dips in the game (along with Spirit Lion Barbie).
I don't even mind mundane Melees getting that power, but it annoys me that dipping a _caster_ level is such a no-brainer for warrior types.

Note, btw, that I think that the PF version of CCl is taking it too far. That Archetype is practically worthless.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Make it so a Cloistered Cleric has to worship a deity who offers the Knowledge domain, they don't have the option to pick an ideal or the Sovereign Host. If they switch to a deity who doesn't offer the Knowledge domain, they lose all the benefits specific to Cloistered Cleric but don't recover the drawbacks.

Additionally, you could put an effective Cleric level for turning undead prerequisite on divine feats, so they can't be taken with a single level dip or even at 1st level. For example, Divine Metamagic could have its prerequisites modified as follows: "Ability to turn or rebuke undead at a class level at least double the level increase of the metamagic feat selected."


It's not just a "competitive" dip, but probably one of the two most powerful dips in the game (along with Spirit Lion Barbie).
I don't even mind mundane Melees getting that power, but it annoys me that dipping a _caster_ level is such a no-brainer for warrior types.

I think this is more a flaw with mundane melee and front-loaded class features than anything. It's like the 3.0 Ranger single level dip all over again. However, my above suggestion should limit what options are available for that dip.

[Psyren]

You could always use PF Divine Power (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/d/divine-power) instead, which won't turn you into a melee god the way 3.5's will (i.e. your half-BAB will still matter.) Righteous Might is fine, though I'd go with the PF version there too.

[eggynack]

It's not just a "competitive" dip, but probably one of the two most powerful dips in the game (along with Spirit Lion Barbie).
I'd say that it's behind many other options. Barbarian, as you've noted, is solidly more powerful on any melee build. It gives you so many things that are necessary for certain archetypes that it's crazy. A mid to high level warblade dip is also good, because it gets a pile of reasonably high level maneuvers, and I've heard good things about the totemist. I would even put a fighter dip at around the same level, because the feat you're getting gives you exactly what you want it to, instead of the comparatively limited list on clerics.

BAB gets you iteratives, which knowledge devotion doesn't, and you're losing significantly more than one HP, because in dip comparisons we have to compare it to the HP you'd be getting otherwise. That means something like two HP for a fighter dip, or three HP for a barbarian dip, and that's not insignificant. Cloistered cleric dips are great, but really only if you're getting something specific off of it. Maybe you want wand use from magic domain, or brief flight off of animal devotion, or free movement from travel devotion. Knowledge devotion really only gets you parity with the chassis of melee classes, so the other two domains have to do some work to give the class an edge.

Edit: Missed something.
by way of Knowledge Devotion you immediately get back _at least_ +1 attack _and_ damage against most enemies.
This is only true if you either have the relevant knowledge skills on your list, or you're cross classing the rank in each skill. You lose your full set of knowledges when you trade away knowledge domain. Most melee guys have barely any points to spare, and the 6+int you get from the cloistered cleric level only gets you so far. Also, BAB qualifies you for stuff, like PrC's.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Getting BaB quickly is less about the attack bonus (though that's still nice) and more about extra attacks, prerequisites, and Power Attack. Delaying entry into something like Runescarred Berserker or Shock Trooper might not be worthwhile. Also, if I'm playing something like Whirlpounce Barbarian 1/Dungeoncrash Zhentarim Fighter X, or Barb1/Fighter1/Warblade X, I'm not sure I want/need a CC dip at all.

That's what I mean by competitive, instead of a must have. It competes with the higher-end options, which means it's overpowered compared to the average, but we're talking about average melee options here. You're not seeing wizards multiclass CC 1 unless they're doing something weird like Divine Defiance counterspelling.

If you're talking about devotion feats being too easily accessible, this is an issue for cleric or cloistered cleric. The marginal thing CC gets is knowledge devotion, which is basically +1/+1 for skill point starved melee builds. Law Devotion* is good, but without extra feat support a 10 CHA character is getting one extra use compared to just taking the feat.

Certain characters who make more use out of CHA or INT might get more out of Knowledge Devotion or Turn Undead, but CC giving more love to MAD melee classes isn't a terrible thing.

Honestly how about we just give some of these things as class features for mundane classes instead of forcing them to dip? As a matter of taste I prefer buffing to nerfing.

*Devoting one's self to Law has a bit of fluff contradiction with that other great melee dip that we've mentioned, but we can replace Law with Animal Devotion and the general argument remains the same.

[John Longarrow]

Firechanter,
I'm assuming you are trying to balance a dip in Cloistered Cleric to a dip in Cleric. For a melee build, yes it is better but it doesn't need to try to balance. Reason is for a dip Cleric can be better for other builds. Cleric gets all that armor proficiency along with casting, something that for a skill build may be worth it while the cloistered cleric only grants an extra domain and a couple more skill points when they already have plenty.

The only way it can be shown as being "Too good" is if you are tossing it on a build that can't use the free armor proficiency from Cleric. One extra domain + 4 skill points VS 2 feats (medium and heavy armor) sounds like a mechanical draw.

[Firechanter]

Thanks for all the insight so far. Will ponder things a bit. ^^

[TiaC]

You could give them ACF.