Feat Retraining

[Snig]

Hey everyone. I have a question about feat retraining.

I want to take a ranger with the feat Wild Cohort at level one. At level 4 I will take Urban Companion to give me a familiar and at lvl 6 I was wondering if it would be legal to trade the feat Wild Cohort for Extra Familiar?

[JusticeZero]

You can't remove a feat that is a prerequisite to a feat you have, or you lose access to the ones above it in the chain.

[Flickerdart]

You can't straight up trade feats, but PHBII has rules (guidelines, really) for how long it takes to retrain something. Granted, I (and most groups I've seen) tend to ignore those rules and just let people rebuild if they want to.

[Snig]

You can't remove a feat that is a prerequisite to a feat you have, or you lose access to the ones above it in the chain.

This has nothing to do with prerequisites. I am trading in my Wild Cohort for a Extra Familiar.

The Extra Familiar will be more powerful mount then my Wild Cohort so I was hoping to trade in my Wild Cohort mount for a Extra Familiar mount.

[Curmudgeon]

At level 4 I will take Urban Companion to give me a familiar and ...
Your plan is broken, because Urban Companion (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a) doesn't give you a familiar. It gives you something that's quite similar to a familiar, but it also has differences; it also has a different name. Extra Familiar can only give you an additional familiar, and you won't qualify with a companion and no familiar.

[Snig]

Your plan is broken, because Urban Companion (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a) doesn't give you a familiar. It gives you something that's quite similar to a familiar, but it also has differences; it also has a different name. Extra Familiar can only give you an additional familiar, and you won't qualify with a companion and no familiar.

Benefit: The character gains the companionship of a smaller but far more intelligent creature than she otherwise would have. This is identical to the sorcerer's ability to summon a familiar (PH 52), including all benefits granted and gained by the familiar, except as noted below. Her functional level for determining the abilities of the companion is equal to her druid level or one-half her ranger level.

I disagree with your take on it.

Aside from that my DM has no problem with it.

[Curmudgeon]

Aside from that my DM has no problem with it.
Well, if you're in the house rules territory anyway, why not just ask your DM instead of us? The only set of rules we know we share are those written down, and all we can do as a community is reference those. So I suggest you simply ask your own DM, as that's what's going to matter for you.

[Snig]

Well, if you're in the house rules territory anyway, why not just ask your DM instead of us? The only set of rules we know we share are those written down, and all we can do as a community is reference those. So I suggest you simply ask your own DM, as that's what's going to matter for you.

Did you read the bold print? Could you show me a rule written down that I can reference, that says Urban Companion is not a familiar? Because as far as I can tell from the description it is identical to a familiar meaning it is a familiar....

[Curmudgeon]

Did you read the bold print? Could you show me a rule written down that I can reference, that says Urban Companion is not a familiar? Because as far as I can tell from the description it is identical to a familiar meaning it is a familiar....
No, it's not identical. Your bolding didn't include the "except as noted below" part. And of course nearly identical is not the same as identical. There's also the name issue, in that the feat expressly gives you something stated to be a companion, and Extra Familiar specifically states familiar rather than companion.

You've already seen the RAW; you just chose to ignore the parts that were inconvenient for you.

[Snig]

Well to me something that is identical to a familiar is in fact a familiar.

Common sense ftw. Wordplay ftl.

The RAW plainly says that it is identical to a familiar, so if I have an Urban Companion that is identical to a familiar then I have a familiar and I meet the requirements for the feat Extra Familiar.

[JusticeZero]

Because a companion is not in fact identical to a familiar? You can't cast touch spells through an animal companion, for instance. Other differences arising from the fact that the link between a familiar is much different from simply having a companion exist.

[Kafana]

Urban companion is not a familiar. End of story.

[JusticeZero]

That said, I am reviewing the feat in question, and the OP may be correct. As per the feat, "Benefit: The character gains the companionship of a smaller but far more intelligent creature than she otherwise would have. This is identical to the sorcerer's ability to summon a familiar (PH 52), including all benefits granted and gained by the familiar, except as noted below.."
That said, I don't know that the swap would be kosher regardless.

[eggynack]

Even leaving aside the fact that an urban companion is not a familiar, improved familiar states, "The spellcaster must have at least the arcane spellcaster level and base attack bonus indicated below in order to acquire the familiar." Rangers, lacking arcane casting as they do, can not take improved familiar.

[Kafana]

Even leaving aside the fact that an urban companion is not a familiar, improved familiar states, "The spellcaster must have at least the arcane spellcaster level and base attack bonus indicated below in order to acquire the familiar." Rangers, lacking arcane casting as they do, can not take improved familiar.

He's talking about the Extra Familiar feat, not the Improved Familiar feat.

That being said, familiars are linked to arcane spellcasters and not rangers. Urban companion is a companion, not a familiar.

[Snig]

It says in the Urban Companion RAW that they use their Druid level or half their ranger level to determine the special abilities of their familiar as per page 52 of the players handbook (under familiars).

I'm sticking to my guns, it couldn't be any more plain. The wording says identical to a familiar, they progress as a familiar using page 52 of the players handbook.

The wording on the feat Extra Familiar says you must already have a familiar. Well I have something identical to a familiar so looks like I qualify.

For Improved Familiar, I need arcane spellcaster levels, and I use half my ranger level to determine my arcane spellcaster level for the purposes regarding my familiar.

Again, sometimes common sense needs to come into play.

[Snig]

He's talking about the Extra Familiar feat, not the Improved Familiar feat.

That being said, familiars are linked to arcane spellcasters and not rangers. Urban companion is a companion, not a familiar.

Urban companion is Identical to a familiar not a companion. Read the RAW again........carefully.

[eggynack]

He's talking about the Extra Familiar feat, not the Improved Familiar feat.
Nah, he's talking about both. Even if it's not immediately apparent from this thread, this is like the fiftykajillionth thread about this topic.



For Improved Familiar, I need arcane spellcaster levels, and I use half my ranger level to determine my arcane spellcaster level for the purposes regarding my familiar.
There is absolutely nothing about urban companion that indicates that you get an arcane spellcaster level. The companion's power is determined by your druid/ranger level, instead of arcane spellcaster level. In fact, familiars aren't even tied to arcane spellcaster level. They're just tied to classes that give you a familiar. This argument holds no water.

[Snig]

Nah, he's talking about both. Even if it's not immediately apparent from this thread, this is like the fiftykajillionth thread about this topic.


There is absolutely nothing about urban companion that indicates that you get an arcane spellcaster level. The companion's power is determined by your druid/ranger level, instead of arcane spellcaster level. In fact, familiars aren't even tied to arcane spellcaster level. They're just tied to classes that give you a familiar. This argument holds no water.

Please do your research before coming into this thread and spreading misinformation as fact. Go look at the RAW for Improved Familiar under Complete Warrior (pg. 100) and come back and tell me that they are not tied to your arcane caster level....

Your attempt at shutting down my logic holds no water.

[eggynack]

Please do your research before coming into this thread and spreading misinformation as fact. Go look at the RAW for Improved Familiar under Complete Warrior (pg. 100) and come back and tell me that they are not tied to your arcane caster level....

Your attempt at shutting down my logic holds no water.
Yes. Improved familiar is tied to arcane caster level. That was my whole point. Urban companion does not give you an arcane caster level, effective or otherwise. Thus, you can not take improved familiar.

[Snig]

Yes. Improved familiar is tied to arcane caster level. That was my whole point. Urban companion does not give you an arcane caster level, effective or otherwise. Thus, you can not take improved familiar.

This is the part my DM interpreted and I guess houserules. Since Urban Companion uses your druid (1/2 ranger) level to advance your familiar he thought it logical to use your druid lvl in reference to improved familiars requirements.

In any case, I've decided on a better (much simpler) build to grant me two improved familiars, and that's to take Battle Sorcerer into Abjurant Champion. All requirements will be easily met, and i'm pretty sure it'll be a more powerful character then a mounted archer ranger anyhow.

Thanks for the heated debate everyone, hope there's no hard feelings, i'm sure many people agree with you, and to do it my way I guess would have required houserules, or a different interpretation of the wording.

[Terazul]

Please do your research before coming into this thread and spreading misinformation as fact. Go look at the RAW for Improved Familiar under Complete Warrior (pg. 100) and come back and tell me that they are not tied to your arcane caster level....

Your attempt at shutting down my logic holds no water.

Well actually, he's technically correct. Regular familiars granted by class features are straight up tied to class level, and nothing else. Even going as far to say:


Levels of different classes that are entitled to familiars stack for the purpose of determining any familiar abilities that depend on the master’s level.

All about levels in classes, regardless of your effective arcane caster level.

Now, the confusion is in familiars granted by the "Obtain Familiar" feat are directly and explicitly tied to your arcane caster level.


For the purpose of determining familiar abilities that depend on your arcane caster class level, your levels in all classes that allow you to cast arcane spells stack.
Since anyone can pick one up. This is why Obtain Familiar tends to be better anyway.

Urban Companion functions as a Sorcerer familiar, meaning it's also tied directly to your levels in druid or ranger and nothing else. It doesn't give you an arcane caster level, it just lets you use levels of druid and ranger for determining the abilities of the thing you get.

So sadly, while it probably wouldn't be too bad to allow Urban Companion to work with Improved Familiar, it really doesn't:


Ability to acquire a new familiar, and base attack bonus, compatible alignment, sufficiently high arcane spellcaster level,

Bolded for emphasis, which you get none of.