Dodging a Magic Missile

[Ditto]

Questions regarding magic missiles.


Q408
Magic Missile states:

Teleportation breaks line of effect. What happens if you use anklets of translocation to teleport 10 feet to the left (still within target range, and having a new but different valid LOE) as an Immediate action upon having a Magic Missile spell fired at you? Is breaking LOE effectively the same as having total cover in the moment that the missile is searching for you?



A 408

The anklet of translocation takes a swift action to activate and thus cannot be used in the manner indicated.

If you have a way of immediate action teleport, magic missile will still hit as long as you are still inside the range of the spell after you teleport.


Q408a/b follow-up
Bad example - a Shadow cloak, then, immediate action activation. Magic Missile does not work if the target has full cover. Full cover breaks line of effect. Teleportation breaks line of effect. If your immediate action is triggered by 'the missile hits me', and your action occurs immediately before the trigger, does the caster no longer have LOE (RAW, 'a straight, unbroken line') to your present location?

For magic missile, I suppose it matters if 'cast the spell' and 'hit the target' are two discrete events. The question hinges upon whether you can change the course of a bullet after it has been fired, even if it 'strikes unerringly' - but since that strike is couched in language regarding AC, cover, and concealment, I feel it is saying 'The missile has a functionally infinite To-Hit roll', not 'This is an area of effect attack that affects one specified target'.



A 412

A 408 follow up

You are still hit by magic missile if you are still in range after the teleportation. The caster of magic missile doesn't have to maintain line of effect. He just needs it to cast it initially. You don't need line of effect to affect things with a spell, just to cast a spell on a target or point of origin.

[Ditto]

I concur that the spell is cast since the target is valid initially. However, there are several ways to block this - such as a readied action to raise a tower shield, which provides full cover, and a magic missile cannot be targetted at someone with full cover. I suppose in that case, the spell would not actually be cast, but the action would be wasted.

I suggest a similar situation happens when Shadow Cloak - teleporting away after being targetted by a Magic Missile. Teleportation breaks line of effect due to travel to the astral plane and then to your new location. The trouble is in determining what defines 'target' when the spell is cast. Do you say, 'I shoot a missile at the Elf standing 10 feet in front of me' - but when you get ready to launch, the Elf is now 10 feet to your left. 'Elf in front of me' is no longer a valid target, and thus your action is wasted by the elf's interrupted action.

'The spell strikes unerringly' does not, to me, indicate that the spell lets you know where the target is. If you are in the dark, and have no darkvision, you cannot cast magic missile at the target 10 feet away because you cannot mark him, despite having Line of Effect. Same with casting in a Fog Cloud - you need Tremorsense or something to be able to direct your shot, and then it hits with an effectively-infinite To-Hit Roll. You cannot miss a target you shoot at; but I would argue you cannot shoot at a target who is not there, and the immediate nature of the interrupting action (movement/teleportation) should waste your action.

[Lord Vukodlak]

A tower shield can't stop magic missile,

The shield does not, however, provide cover against targeted spells; a spellcaster can cast a spell on you by targeting the shield you are holding.

[Ditto]

Erm, sloppy wording again. "Gain total cover", so let's say you readied an action to cast Obscuring Mist, providing total concealment. Or readied an action to 'run 10 feet to the right, behind that wall'.

[NeoPhoenix0]

Erm, sloppy wording again. "Gain total cover", so let's say you readied an action to cast Obscuring Mist, providing total concealment. Or readied an action to 'run 10 feet to the right, behind that wall'.

Concealment doesn't block line of effect, so obscuring mist is right out.

Edit: I'm starting to see how dysfunctional the line of effect rules are when combined with certain things.

[Ditto]

But total concealment DOES prevent magic missile from working, because you can't target a creature with total concealment. The link I was making is that breaking line of effect by teleporting similarly prevents/breaks your 'target lock'.

[Crake]

But total concealment DOES prevent magic missile from working, because you can't target a creature with total concealment. The link I was making is that breaking line of effect by teleporting similarly prevents/breaks your 'target lock'.

I'm not sure what you're asking, are you trying to find out if simply the act of teleporting a short distance as a readied/immediate action makes the magic missile invalid? Or are you talking about teleporting behind total cover/into total concealment?

The former would not work, however the latter would. In the case of the latter though, as per the readied action rules, the caster of the magic missile would still need to follow through with their casting, and could pick other targets for their magic missile (unless there were no other targets, then the spell is wasted)

[Ditto]

The former is what I'm getting at. The teleportation just happens immediately before the casting rather than truly interrupting it. I think I'm just stuck on the idea that it truly interrupts the action, mid-launch, so the bullet is fired and doesn't make a 90 degree turn to back and find the now-elsewhere target.

That's not quite how immediates work, though. You are stuck casting magic missile, you just have to re-aim - and now your original target is slightly to the left, but still a perfectly good target.

EDIT: Er, do immediate actions and readied actions resolve in exactly the same way? The Immediate Action entry in the SRD is a little thin and doesn't really spell out how interrupting someone to make their original action invalid works.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I'm not sure where you're getting that teleportation automatically breaks line of effect. Per the Rules Compendium it occurs instantaneously, so there's no measurable amount of time in which you're not present at either the origin or destination. As long as both of those positions have line of effect to the enemy caster, line of effect is never broken.

Similarly, Magic Missile has a duration of instantaneous. There is no measurable amount of time between completion of casting the spell, and when the spell strikes the target. You cannot choose to take a readied action or an immediate action during the missile's flight.

Edit: If you use a readied action or an immediate action in response to an enemy casting a spell, and that action results in that caster no longer having line of sight/effect to your character, then he cannot target you with it. However, a spell's target(s) don't get chosen until the casting is complete, so he can still just choose a different target if one is present.

[nedz]

Casting Celerity and then Shield would work.

[Crake]

I'm not sure where you're getting that teleportation automatically breaks line of effect. Per the Rules Compendium it occurs instantaneously, so there's no measurable amount of time in which you're not present at either the origin or destination. As long as both of those positions have line of effect to the enemy caster, line of effect is never broken.

Teleportation does break line of effect, even if only for a split second. For instantaneous spells, its not an issue, but for ongoing spells that require constant line of effect, teleportation will end those spells.

I think the confusion lay in the fact that Ditto was trying to teleport after the spell was cast, but before the missiles had hit, which in dnd, has no delay between the two events.

[Curmudgeon]

I concur that the spell is cast since the target is valid initially. However, there are several ways to block this - such as a readied action to raise a tower shield, which provides full cover, and a magic missile cannot be targetted at someone with full cover. I suppose in that case, the spell would not actually be cast, but the action would be wasted.
You seem to be under the impression that D&D follows the "declared actions" game system here. However, while there may be a way to use Ready to keep a Magic Missile from having a valid target, that also means that the spell was not cast. As such, the action was not "wasted"; it didn't actually get far enough to complete.
The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character’s activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action. That's "continues his actions", not "continues the same action". The enemy spellcaster can do whatever they want with their standard action instead of casting Magic Missile.

[Ditto]

What is the sequence for resolving Immediate actions? Forgetting readied action for the moment... This is different, as with Wings of Cover, in that the attack is launched but not delivered. Could you use Wings of Cover to block a magic missile?

The wings of force last just long enough to disrupt your foe's line of effect to you, providing you total cover against a single attack with a weapon, spell, or psionic power.
Thus, it follows that disrupting line of effect provides momentary total cover. Teleporting breaks line of effect, and by the same logic provides momentary total cover, which should fizzle the spell.

Where's the disconnect?

[Aracor]

What is the sequence for resolving Immediate actions? Forgetting readied action for the moment... This is different, as with Wings of Cover, in that the attack is launched but not delivered. Could you use Wings of Cover to block a magic missile?

Thus, it follows that disrupting line of effect provides momentary total cover. Teleporting breaks line of effect, and by the same logic provides momentary total cover, which should fizzle the spell.

Where's the disconnect?

The disconnect is that there's no such logic in standard immediate action rules. Wings of Cover explicitly says that it will break line of effect, so it does. Most immediate actions lack that wording, so they do not.

[Crake]

You seem to be under the impression that D&D follows the "declared actions" game system here. However, while there may be a way to use Ready to keep a Magic Missile from having a valid target, that also means that the spell was not cast. As such, the action was not "wasted"; it didn't actually get far enough to complete. That's "continues his actions", not "continues the same action". The enemy spellcaster can do whatever they want with their standard action instead of casting Magic Missile.

That doesn't really make sense. The idea is that casting a spell takes time (a standard action). The readied action triggers after it starts, but before it resolves. Thus the standard action has already been used before the readied action is performed, but has not resolved yet. Using that logic if someone readies against a charge to deal extra damage, you can change your mind and say "I wasn't charging I was double moving" and avoid the extra damage, which suddenly makes no sense.


What is the sequence for resolving Immediate actions? Forgetting readied action for the moment... This is different, as with Wings of Cover, in that the attack is launched but not delivered. Could you use Wings of Cover to block a magic missile?

Thus, it follows that disrupting line of effect provides momentary total cover. Teleporting breaks line of effect, and by the same logic provides momentary total cover, which should fizzle the spell.

Where's the disconnect?

The disconnect is that teleportation is instantaneous, meaning that it happens in an instant. This also means that the duration of your "total cover" also happens in an instant, and is gone before the spell resolves, wheras wings of cover has a duration that lasts long enough to protect against a spell or other effect.

If the teleportation instead took a round, and thus you spent a round on the astral plane or whatnot, then yeah, it would work, but for game purposes, the line of effect thing with teleportation is purely for ongoing spells that require continuous line of effect, and thus can be broken by an instant of none.

[Ditto]

No, Wings of Cover is ALSO instantaneous, and it is kind enough to explain that in further detail. There is only one size of 'instantaneous'. Per the example of wings of cover, Immediate actions exist after the opposing action has begun but before it is resolved. The 'resolved' happens in that instantaneous moment, and the Immediate effect and opposing effect dissipate at the same time.

If you teleport, you are momentarily not present due to travel through the astral plane.

Someone who is not present effectively has total cover.

Magic missile only strikes unerringly when the target has less than total cover.

Ergo, Magic missile cannot strike.

[Curmudgeon]

That doesn't really make sense. The idea is that casting a spell takes time (a standard action). The readied action triggers after it starts, but before it resolves. Thus the standard action has already been used before the readied action is performed, but has not resolved yet.
That might be one way to do it, but the highlighted statement isn't correct by the WotC way. Apparently you can recognize the initial parts of spellcasting (verbal + somatic in the case of Magic Missile) before the standard action necessary for the spellcasting is fully committed. When the Ready action is finished, the spellcaster can do whatever they want for their standard action, because it's essentially all still unspent. The interruption is minor, and they're free to begin the same or another spell, or do something else entirely.

[Captnq]

Joe Wizard Meets Dave Sorcerer.

1. Joe and Dave get in an argument. Joe decides to teach Dave a lesson. Joe wins Initiative. Joe uses a standard action to magic missile Dave. Dave gets hit.

1a. Same situation, but this time Dave uses an immediate action to teleport 10 feet to the left. (We don't care how) but he is still within range and still within line of sight.

Dave has used his swift action to act out of turn. Dave simply goes before Joe. Joe now gets to react to the new situation. Joe never fired the magic missile. You cannot interrupt the magic missile that way.

Immediate actions merely change the turn order briefly. They cannot interrupt an action. They preempt the action.


2. Dave wins Initiative. Dave readies a magic missile of his own, but he doesn't want to be brought to court later. Dave declares he's going to hold his action and set up conditions for when he acts. "I will magic missile Joe when he starts to cast a spell. I'll claim self-defense."

Now Joe, knowing what a coward Dave is, realizes that Dave is up to something, so before Joe casts magic missile, Joe instead casts Feather Fall, an immedate spell.

Dave magic missiles Joe in an attempt to cause damage and disrupt the spell. Joe's damage does not interrupt the spell, just damages him. The spell is still going off. The caster just needs to make a concentration check. Which he chooses to fail, because he doesn't care. It's feather fall.

NOW Joe Magic Missiles Dave while shouting, "I was only casting feather fall, you JERK."


Time isn't like time in the real world. D20 time is actually turn based. You can change the turn order, you can hold an action to do something later, you can do something WITH someone, but you cannot say, "I move halfway through his standard action."

It's like when you move, you move in 5 foot squares. You can't move 4 feet. You move five, or not at all. When time passes, the action either begins, or it doesn't. I go first, you go first, he goes first, but someone goes first.

Your immedate teleport dude chooses to go before the spell. When he is done with his teleport, he had better be far enough away to not get hit, because the guy who he preempted now gets to go, and he can choose to adjust his choices based on the changed conditions.

If I'm moving, I move in 5 foot squares. Now, an AoO interupts my move action, but it doesn't interrupt THAT specific 5 foot square I just moved into. In effect, a move action gives you six 5-foot steps. You can pause the target in between 5-foot steps, but not DURING a 5-foot step.

That's what you are trying to do with your teleport. You are trying to pause someone in the middle of an action, and that simply isn't how the game works.

[Stux]

Immediate actions exist after the opposing action has begun but before it is resolved.

Even if we take this as a given (which is debatable), where are you getting that you need to continuously have a valid target from when you begin the action to when it resolves?

As long as you are a valid target at the moment of resolution, which you will be because you will have finished teleporting, then surely it will hit you, because that is when targets would be chosen.

[Captnq]

BTW, what you are talking about is called "Blink". It is a third level spell. It gives you a miss chance. So unless whatever method you are using to teleport states in the spell description that it grants you a miss chance, it doesn't give you a miss chance.

[Crake]

That might be one way to do it, but the highlighted statement isn't correct by the WotC way. Apparently you can recognize the initial parts of spellcasting (verbal + somatic in the case of Magic Missile) before the standard action necessary for the spellcasting is fully committed. When the Ready action is finished, the spellcaster can do whatever they want for their standard action, because it's essentially all still unspent. The interruption is minor, and they're free to begin the same or another spell, or do something else entirely.

How is that possibly the case when you can ready an attack to interrupt a spell being cast. If the readied action resolves before the spell has been committed to being cast, then it would be impossible to interrupt it with a readied action. By your example, if someone shot at a spell caster casting a spell, they could instead decide to spend their action on something that wouldn't require a concentration check, and thus avoid wasting a spell that round.

[Captnq]

How is that possibly the case when you can ready an attack to interrupt a spell being cast. If the readied action resolves before the spell has been committed to being cast, then it would be impossible to interrupt it with a readied action. By your example, if someone shot at a spell caster casting a spell, they could instead decide to spend their action on something that wouldn't require a concentration check, and thus avoid wasting a spell that round.

You never interrupt a spell.

You force the caster to make a concentration check as a "Not-An-Action" action. if he fails, he cannot cast the spell.

Okay. everyone knows what the actions are, right?

Full-Round
Move
Standard
Swift
Immediate
Free
Not An

Not An actions are:
Concentration
Passive Spot/Listen
Identify A Spell Being Cast

So Someone takes a standard action. You choose to interrupt it. You resolve your action. Now we figure out what Not An Actions the original actor needs to take to confirm he can proceed. If he fails, He STILL completes his action, it just FAILS.

See, if you were truly interrupting him, he would never complete the spell and he's still have his spell componates in his hand. He's interrupted. He never casts the spell. It's still in his head.

But he casts the spell all the same. He consumes the Materials, spends the XPs, makes the gestures and chants the rites. It just does not work.

[Platymus Pus]

What if the spell was say, greater teleport?

[Ditto]

Wings of cover explicitly describes the order of events an immediate action takes, WITHIN someone else's standard action. It starts as soon as they have begun their action (before any effect has resolved), but ends at the same time that the standard action ends.

Joe and Dave's example is incorrect. Replace Featherfall with Wings of Cover, and you see why. Again, there are not different flavors of immediate action. Joe winds up to pitch a magic missile. IMMEDIATE ACTION (which does not change initiative order) Dave casts Wings of cover, which exists from the start of the pitch to the end of the pitch as an instantaneous effect. Joe completes his pitch, but finds the pitch fails because the ball bounces off his intended target. Both spells now end.

Joe winds up to pitch magic missile (Time 0.0). IMMEDIATE ACTION shadowcloak teleport - this starts immediately after the pitch starts (time 0.1), and resolves immediately after the pitch ends. When Joe tries to complete his pitch, but finds that it fails because his declared target is no longer in range (he's on the astral plane for the Instantaneous duration of the spell). Both spells now end one after another, MM wasted (illegal target, time 1.0) and teleportation complete (time 1.1).


Even if we take this as a given (which is debatable), where are you getting that you need to continuously have a valid target from when you begin the action to when it resolves?

As long as you are a valid target at the moment of resolution, which you will be because you will have finished teleporting, then surely it will hit you, because that is when targets would be chosen.
Again, Wings of Cover explains how immediate actions work. You only need a valid target at the time of resolution for it to work. Per WOC, the instantaneous spell WOC does not resolve until it has disrupted the spell that prompted it. Ergo, other immediate action instantaneous spells also begin just after an opposing action is initiated and complete just after an opposing action ends.

[Maginomicon]

Set aside for a moment the inevitable whining about whether a given rules source is "legit".



Readying is a standard action that doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity, though the action that you ready might provoke attacks of opportunity when you take that action.

You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action. To do so, you must specify what you want to do and the conditions under which you will do so. Then, any time before your next turn, you can take the readied action in response to those conditions. The action occurs just before whatever triggers it. If the triggering condition is part of another creature’s activities, you interrupt that creature’s turn. Assuming the interrupted creature is still capable of doing so, it continues its turn once you complete your readied action.




Can you take a free action and a standard action as part of a readied action? For example, suppose I ready an action to attack the first monster to come into melee range. A monster comes into range, and I take an attack—can I also shout, cast a quickened spell, or use some other free action?

Using a strict reading of the ready rules (on page 160 of the PH), the answer is no. While the ready action allows you to combine a 5-foot step as part of the readied action, it doesn’t say anything about allowing free actions.

Furthermore, the first sentence of the second paragraph under the Ready heading (“You can ready a standard action, a move action, or a free action.”) seems to support this, as it clearly sets up a free action as one of the three options, rather than including it as an addition to be included along with either of the other two options.

Since speaking is generally defined as a free action you can perform “even when it isn’t your turn” (see the PH 144), you don’t need to combine a shout with the readied action. You can simply perform it any time you want, including right before or after taking a readied action. The same is true of any spell (or action) that you can cast (or perform) when it isn’t your turn, such as feather fall,or any spell whose casting time is 1 immediate action. You couldn’t cast a quickened spell, though, since that can’t be done when it isn’t your turn.




Suppose a fighter and an archer go at the same initiative. The archer is not in an adjacent square but only one square over. The fighter is not using a reach weapon. Assuming the archer plans to use a full attack action (and doesn’t use a 5-foot step), and since they have the same initiative, could the fighter move his 5-foot step (toward the archer) as the archer is firing and get an attack of opportunity?

The question is moot, because two characters never have the same initiative. If two characters tie with their initiative rolls, you must break the tie before starting the combat (see Initiative in Chapter 8 of the PH).

The fighter could use the ready or delay special initiative actions to act at about the same time as the archer. In the case of the ready action, the fighter could ready an attack against the archer when the archer shoots. When the archer shoots, the readied action is triggered. The fighter acts before the archer shoots (readied actions are resolved prior to the actions that trigger them, see the ready description in Chapter 8 of the PH). Assuming that the fighter has not previously moved this round, he could make a 5-foot step and then attack the archer. Since the fighter now threatens the archer, the fighter can make an attack of opportunity against the archer when the archer fires, provided the archer does not use a 5-foot step to get out of reach first.

If the fighter was delaying, the action would be resolved in the same way, provided the fighter chose to act before the archer. If the delaying fighter acts after the archer, the fighter won’t get any attack of opportunity against the archer (this turn, at least).

It's thus clear that you must continue expending the action you were in the process of taking when the ready action interrupted you. Otherwise, things like counterspelling (which requires a ready action) become useless because the person could just pick a different spell making your counterspell (and your ready action) meaningless.

[Shining Wrath]

You seem to be under the impression that D&D follows the "declared actions" game system here. However, while there may be a way to use Ready to keep a Magic Missile from having a valid target, that also means that the spell was not cast. As such, the action was not "wasted"; it didn't actually get far enough to complete. That's "continues his actions", not "continues the same action". The enemy spellcaster can do whatever they want with their standard action instead of casting Magic Missile.

Including, of course, casting Magic Missile at your new location if it is a valid target.

[Deophaun]

Can you "interrupt" a magic missile with a readied action? Yes.

However, unless you are the only possible target on the battlefield, you do not ruin the spell. Details about the spell: who it targets, where the effect originates, etc., are all determined when the spell takes effect, not during its casting. In order for your rush to cover to have the desired effect of protecting you from the spell, you have to do it before the spell takes effect. So that means that the target is still undetermined after your interruption. The caster is free to target the spell at another victim.

[TriForce]

well, seeing as designating a target for the magic missle is part of casting a spell, id say that making a spellcraft check to recognize the spell can only happen AFTER that part, otherwise, you wouldnt know what is happening or who its targeting.

however, that also means that any action you make after a spellcraft check MUST break line of effect in order to stop the magic missle. breaking line of sight alone is no longer enough since any part of the spell that could be disrupted already happened before you even have a chance of figuring out what is going on.

[Stegyre]

Wings of cover explicitly describes the order of events an immediate action takes, WITHIN someone else's standard action. It starts as soon as they have begun their action (before any effect has resolved), but ends at the same time that the standard action ends.
No, the Wings of Cover description explicitly describes how Wings of Cover is resolved, not how immediate actions in general are resolved. WoC will block the Magic Missile, because that is explicitly what WoC does. Other immediate actions will not, because that is not what an immediate action explicitly does and none of them have such explicit language making them do so.

That's really how the rules work, as pretty much everyone else is telling you.

[Deophaun]

well, seeing as designating a target for the magic missle is part of casting a spell, id say that making a spellcraft check to recognize the spell can only happen AFTER that part, otherwise, you wouldnt know what is happening or who its targeting.
That's not how spellcraft works. You only need to recognize the components to identify a spell being cast (and the language is actually "being cast," so you are identifying it before it takes effect). You do not need to see the effect (and if you were going by the effect instead of the components, the DC is 5 higher).

But you are right that spellcraft wouldn't tell you who it's targeting. This is because, as stated, targets are determined simultaneously with the effect. In magic missile's case the target is determined at the same time the spell deals damage.

[Urpriest]

1a. Same situation, but this time Dave uses an immediate action to teleport 10 feet to the left. (We don't care how) but he is still within range and still within line of sight.

This right here is the problem.

There are no general rules for the timing of immediate actions. None. Some immediate actions can interrupt other actions, some cannot.

Look at the Shadowcaster's Flicker Mystery. It is an immediate action that lets you teleport out of the way of an attack, and it specifies what happens. You don't automatically avoid the attack, but it also can't automatically retarget to you. Rather, the effect tells you what happens.

The same is true for Wings of Cover, as has been stated upthread.

In general, an immediate action teleportation ability will state whether it allows you to avoid attacks, and under what conditions it will do so. If it doesn't, that just means it's unusable until WotC releases errata that clarifies how it works.

[Silvanoshei]

Again, Wings of Cover explains how immediate actions work. You only need a valid target at the time of resolution for it to work. Per WOC, the instantaneous spell WOC does not resolve until it has disrupted the spell that prompted it. Ergo, other immediate action instantaneous spells also begin just after an opposing action is initiated and complete just after an opposing action ends.

Your deductive reasoning is a bit flawed in this argument. Here's your logic.

1. WoC is an immediate action instantaneous spell that disrupts line of effect.
2. Other spells are instantaneous with immediate actions.
3. All instantaneous immediate action spells disrupts line of effect.

Statements 1 and 2 are very much true. You cannot however conclude that statement 3 is true, this is fallacious. You have your core rule set, and you have specific spells that may bend the way things work. Your logic may have some merit, but your deductive argument is still invalid because the conclusion does not follow through with the original rule set.

[Ditto]

No, the Wings of Cover description explicitly describes how Wings of Cover is resolved, not how immediate actions in general are resolved. WoC will block the Magic Missile, because that is explicitly what WoC does. Other immediate actions will not, because that is not what an immediate action explicitly does and none of them have such explicit language making them do so.

That's really how the rules work, as pretty much everyone else is telling you.

Thanks for at least responding to my questions about how immediate actions work, Stegyre, since readying is a separate animal. :smallsmile: Do you have something you can point me at that explains how immediate actions are resolved that disagrees with the pattern laid out by WOC? Because again, I don't see anything in the rules that defines different sizes of 'Instantaneous'. Assuming all instantaneous effects take 1 unit of time, and given that immediate actions interrupt an action that has already been initiated and is in progress, I'm saying it follows that:

0.0 - Begin casting spell
0.1 - Immediate interrupt, WOC is formed/Teleportation happens and I'm on the Astral
1.0 - End casting spell, MM cannot target WOC guy/Teleportation guy but can re-aim
1.1 - WOC ends/Teleportation ends and I'm back nearby

[Stux]

That is certainly a way to deal with it, but it would be a house rule.

As was explained Wings of Cover doesn't say, or even really imply, that this is the way all instantaneous spells work, it only talks about itself. The way instantaneous actions that interrupt are dealt with normally in my experience is that the interrupted action is paused until the interrupting action is performed, then the interrupted action is returned to and completed. WoC is a special exception which is why it explicitly explains how it works within its text. There are no discrete units of time in this game, so inferring that from one spell which doesn't even state such seems like a pretty big leap to me.

Admittedly with regards to magic missile this is a pretty niche case which is not absolutely clear with regards to RAW, so it's really up to the DM.

[Ditto]

1. WoC is an immediate action instantaneous spell that disrupts line of effect.
2. Other spells are instantaneous with immediate actions.
3. All instantaneous immediate action spells disrupts line of effect.

That's not exactly what I'm saying, Silvanoshei.

I'm saying
1. WoC is an immediate action instantaneous spell that disrupts line of effect.
2. Other spells are instantaneous with immediate actions.
3. Teleportation disrupts line of effect, momentarily.
Therefore, 4. Immedation action instantaneous teleportation disrupts line of effect.

This much isn't really in question. And even if you granted my logic this far, it doesn't answer my issue about order or resolving effects and 'different durations of instantaneous'. The question is when does the teleportation get resolved. Stux talks about immediate interrupts being resolved completely before returning to the action in progress, and then completing the action in progress. This is not how WOC works, and Stux also said 'in his experience'... so we don't have a universal rule about the order of operations.

If there's no RAW explanation on how to resolve immediate interrupting instantaneous effects, that may be what we're left with. But if I have logic A and you have logic B and neither are RAW, don't tell me I'm wrong by RAW. :smalltongue:

I'm inclined to think Urpriest is correct - some immediates explain how they function in a detailed (and consistent) manner, and others don't spell it out. I don't know why we would default to assuming other immediates clearly do not function in the same way if there is nothing to contradict it... I'm also curious what kinds of immediate actions he's referencing that explicitly cannot interrupt other actions. I thought that was the point of immediate actions.

[Urpriest]

I'm inclined to think Urpriest is correct - some immediates explain how they function in a detailed (and consistent) manner, and others don't spell it out. I don't know why we would default to assuming other immediates clearly do not function in the same way if there is nothing to contradict it... I'm also curious what kinds of immediate actions he's referencing that explicitly cannot interrupt other actions. I thought that was the point of immediate actions.

The Flicker mystery is the clearest example. It explicitly doesn't "always interrupt" or "always not interrupt", instead there's a basic chance built in to the effect. Since the "thing it does" is the same as, for example, Abrupt Jaunt, it's clear that something like Abrupt Jaunt needs some sort of clarificatory wording, otherwise we can't know if it functions like Wings of Cover, or like Flicker, or like something else altogether.

[NeoPhoenix0]

The Flicker mystery is the clearest example. It explicitly doesn't "always interrupt" or "always not interrupt", instead there's a basic chance built in to the effect. Since the "thing it does" is the same as, for example, Abrupt Jaunt, it's clear that something like Abrupt Jaunt needs some sort of clarificatory wording, otherwise we can't know if it functions like Wings of Cover, or like Flicker, or like something else altogether.

That only happens when you cast it in response to an attack, which is impossible as it has a standard action cast time. It doesn't say anything about what happens when you activate the effect in response to an attack. Although your interpretation is probably the best RAI interpretation.

[Keneth]

While this is a nice case to employ the rule of cool, nothing in the RAW supports it. You can't trigger an action between the "magic missile is cast" and "magic missile hits me", you can only trigger your action prior to the spell's completion (i.e. when the spell hasn't finished casting yet). And since the spell's target is chosen after the spell is successfully cast, it doesn't matter at all whether or not you teleport a few feet to any side as long as the spellcaster still has a LoE to you. While it's conceivable that effect of magic missile requires an amount of time to occur, as far as the rules are concerned, the effect is instantaneous.

[Aracor]

So here is the definition of an immediate action according to the Rules Compendium:

An immediate action consumes a tiny amount of time. However, unlike a swift action, an immediate action can be performed at any time during a round, even when it isn’t your turn. Using an immediate action on your turn counts as your swift action for that turn. If you use an immediate action when it isn’t your turn, you can’t use another immediate action or a swift action until after your next turn. You can’t use an immediate action when you’re flat-footed.
This is all that the default rules for immediate actions allow. There is nothing here that allows you to interrupt actions. There is no "amount of time" in the game between 'Caster begins casting magic missile at you. You Abrupt Jaunt/Shadow Cloak and cause his spell to fizzle on targeting because you're not available as a target at the exact time during the casting of the spell that it requires a target', because neither Abrupt Jaunt nor Shadow Cloak say you can use them that way. Wings of Cover explicitly allows you to block line of effect, so it can do that (not specifically because it's an immediate action, but because the spell effect allows you to do so). The immediate action cast is simply there to allow you to cast it when it's not your turn. But unless the immediate action you're using specifies that you can use it to interrupt another action, you cannot.

Wings of Cover specifies that you can use it to foil a single attack which is targeting you. Flicker specifies that if you use it in response to an attack, it misses you half of the time. Abrupt Jaunt or Shadow Cloak have no language like that, so you cannot use them in that way.

On a side note, I'm reading Wings of Cover. And as its wording is specific in that it will stop the FIRST attack, and also that your foe can choose to target someone else, I believe that you must choose to use the spell or not at the beginning of an opponent's turn, NOT after you've had a chance to identify what they're doing. So while it's still a great spell, especially in a 1v1 scenario, I don't believe it's nearly as effective as some people make it out to be.

[Stux]

But if I have logic A and you have logic B and neither are RAW, don't tell me I'm wrong by RAW. :smalltongue:

Well if neither are RAW then you kind of are wrong by RAW. So am I of course, we are both house ruling one way or the other. It just so happens that the opposing opinion to yours appears to be the prevailing, because to us the logic seems more consistent. If your DM/group is happy to play by your interpretation though then more power to you! :smallsmile: