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nedz
2013-09-20, 05:43 PM
Over on the 3.5/PF sub-forum we have documented 479, and counting (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=14536851#post14536851) dysfunctions in the 3.5 and PF rulesets. Can we do the same for D&D Next — before it is published.

Well, the final play test packet is available, can we get ahead of the game ?

Ed: Actually the link they sent me was wrong :smallannoyed: — I guess I should have tested it first :smallredface:

Anyone have the correct link ?

nedz
2013-09-20, 05:44 PM
Reserved for Index

nedz
2013-09-20, 05:45 PM
Reserved .....

Kurald Galain
2013-09-20, 06:05 PM
Sure.

A first-level rogue has a 50% chance of successfully getting anyone, even hostile creatures, to help him (as long as this involves no risk to the helping creature). An eleventh-level rogue does it 100% of the time. Why? The DC to do this is 20 on a hostile creature (15 on a neutral, 10 on a friendly). The L1 rogue has +3 charisma, +1 skill training, +5 expertise so succeeds on an 11+ on 1d20; the L11 rogue has +5 / +3 / +5 and treats any trained skill roll of 1-9 as a 10 so auto-succeeds. This is basically 5E's version of the Diplomancer.

Given how the rules are written, it should be easy to come up with more of these.

Arbane
2013-09-20, 06:32 PM
This webcomic thinks they've found one. (http://gamespeopleplay.smackjeeves.com/comics/1813196/meanwhile-in-dnd-next/) (Disclaimer: No idea if it's accurate.)

Kurald Galain
2013-09-20, 06:47 PM
This webcomic thinks they've found one. (http://gamespeopleplay.smackjeeves.com/comics/1813196/meanwhile-in-dnd-next/) (Disclaimer: No idea if it's accurate.)

Yes, pretty much. A red dragon (level 13 creature) has +7 to strength checks. This means it can break down a wooden door 85% of the time, bend a portcullis 15% of the time, and break down an iron door absolutely never (since it has DC 60).

(edit) Also, this dragon has a 20% chance of losing a grappling check against a commoner :smallbiggrin: :smalltongue: :smallamused:

Speaking of which, it's dysfunctional that the DC for breaking down certain kinds of walls and doors is well above the maximum DC in the DC table, which is 35 for godlike tasks. I don't think it's particularly godlike to break down a door...

(edit) oh, here's a fun one. Prismatic Spray, the traditional rainbow spell from Vance's Dying Earth, now has eight colors. Shocking Grasp is now a ranged spell (very short range, but still not a grasp).

nedz
2013-09-20, 07:17 PM
So 5E doesn't support the Kick—in—the—door style play then ? At least until high level, when it does.

Ksheep
2013-09-20, 09:12 PM
(edit) oh, here's a fun one. Prismatic Spray, the traditional rainbow spell from Vance's Dying Earth, now has eight colors. Shocking Grasp is now a ranged spell (very short range, but still not a grasp).

Of course it has eight colors. What sort of wizard hasn't heard of Octarine, the color of magic?

Sith_Happens
2013-09-20, 10:06 PM
Speaking of which, it's dysfunctional that the DC for breaking down certain kinds of walls and doors is well above the maximum DC in the DC table, which is 35 for godlike tasks. I don't think it's particularly godlike to break down a door...

Huh, how many bad DMs and hack module writers do you think lobbied for that little "feature?"

Mando Knight
2013-09-20, 10:33 PM
Huh, how many bad DMs and hack module writers do you think lobbied for that little "feature?"

Well, any modern gamer will tell you that walls and doors are tougher than battle tanks except when explicitly designed to break. :smalltongue:

obryn
2013-09-21, 09:22 AM
A Fighter 9/Paladin 6 with 20 Str and 20 Con essentially can't ever die from HP damage.

-O

Grod_The_Giant
2013-09-21, 09:54 AM
... this is going to turn into another multi-page argument about how the math isn't goofy because a good GM can ignore the math when it gives silly results, isn't it?

DC 60 for ANYTHING in a system with bounded accuracy is unbelievably stupid, though. Seriously, guys. Iron doors? Not even adamantine, just iron? Time to go build a castle entirely out of iron doors...

NeoPhoenix0
2013-09-21, 06:29 PM
With the multiclass rules at the moment, If a druid takes one level of any other spellcasting class and goes all druid the rest of the way, they have a normal amount of spell slots, as opposed to their decreased number of slots. So a druid of the land with one level of wizard or cleric has more slots than any other caster, with very little given up.

It's minor but seems very strange.

obryn
2013-09-23, 05:58 PM
I can't believe I missed this, but a 2-level dip into Wizard gives everyone who attacks you Disadvantage on all their attacks. Always.

A 2-level dip into Cleric can mean your Reaction can give an attacker in range disadvantage against you, or against anyone else, every round forever.

None of the stuff Fighters get in 2 levels is anywhere near this cool.

-O

Ksheep
2013-09-23, 06:10 PM
So, by the sounds of it, multi-classing in general is dysfunctional more often than not. Do you think they'll revise the rules for this before release, or just hope nobody notices?

obryn
2013-09-23, 06:12 PM
So, by the sounds of it, multi-classing in general is dysfunctional more often than not. Do you think they'll revise the rules for this before release, or just hope nobody notices?
My advice is to scrap the whole thing because squashing broken combos will limit how interesting and functional classes are.

-O

Flickerdart
2013-09-23, 10:23 PM
A multiclass Rogue/Barbarian gets Sneak Attack on every attack while in a frothing axe-swinging frenzy.

NeoPhoenix0
2013-09-23, 11:42 PM
So wait, is 5E going to be the edition of if you aren't taking at least two classes you are not optimized?

Sith_Happens
2013-09-23, 11:43 PM
You know, most of this multiclassing stuff sounds more like a feature than a bug to me.:smallconfused:

AuraTwilight
2013-09-24, 01:03 AM
You know, most of this multiclassing stuff sounds more like a feature than a bug to me.:smallconfused:

9th level characters should be immune to HP damage?

Eldan
2013-09-24, 06:33 AM
9th level characters should be immune to HP damage?

Why not, if that's what you specialize in?

TuggyNE
2013-09-24, 07:53 AM
Why not, if that's what you specialize in?

Righty-o then, I'll be over here with the ~90% of monsters that try to do hit point damage. Crying.

Does Next even have any enemies with non-HP ways to kill or seriously inconvenience you at that level, I wonder? :smallconfused:

obryn
2013-09-24, 07:59 AM
So wait, is 5E going to be the edition of if you aren't taking at least two classes you are not optimized?
Right now, with the way it's shaping up? Yep.

And given how much I dislike multiclassing to start with - especially buffet-style multiclassing - it's a big strike against the system so far.

Scow2
2013-09-24, 08:03 AM
Righty-o then, I'll be over here with the ~90% of monsters that try to do hit point damage. Crying.

Does Next even have any enemies with non-HP ways to kill or seriously inconvenience you at that level, I wonder? :smallconfused:

Several. You're drifting around at 1 HP, which means ALL Save-or-Dies (Which I think are now just HP checks) will work against you.

Mando Knight
2013-09-24, 09:36 AM
9th level characters should be immune to HP damage?

It's 15th level unless you have a Paladin ally that you always stay within 10' of.

Flickerdart
2013-09-24, 09:57 AM
You know, most of this multiclassing stuff sounds more like a feature than a bug to me.:smallconfused:
"If you take these classes you're a fearsome warrior who fears no blade" is fine, and might have been intended. "If you're berserking, you become great at hitting hidden weak points of distracted enemies" was almost certainly not.

noparlpf
2013-09-24, 10:30 AM
"If you take these classes you're a fearsome warrior who fears no blade" is fine, and might have been intended. "If you're berserking, you become great at hitting hidden weak points of distracted enemies" was almost certainly not.

No, see, they're distracted because you're berserking. It's a perfect synergy.

Scow2
2013-09-24, 10:39 AM
Nobody expects the Barbarian to have levels in Rogue, nor does anyone expect the rogue to have levels in Barbarian!

And what makes Reckless Strike reckless isn't that it's "I don't care how I hit them" - it's "I don't care if they hit me - I'm hitting them where it hurts." Not really a dysfunction, even if it is powerful. The enemies aren't distracted - The Barbarian Rogue is just hyperfocused.

When you're not raging, you're leaving yourself open to drive your weapon into hidden weak points. When you are raging, you maintain enough clarity to see and target the weakpoints without exposing yourself.

Multiclass Barbarian/rogue is a feature, not a bug, and balance wise... makes for a pretty devastating striker... but it slows SA damage increases (By at least two levels) compared to a normal rogue, who's getting SA damage anyway because of his Backstab ability (Did they get rid of Isolated Strike for the more duelist and assassin types?). A barbarian with a dip in rogue has his survivability, attack progression, and Crazy Barbarian Shenanigans slowed.

obryn
2013-09-24, 10:51 AM
I dunno. I think even a cursory glance at balance shows that these multiclass combos are issues. There's no sense in which a Fighter should be better at Fighting because they took 2 levels of Wizard.

If this is the sort of thing that's intended in the system, make it part of the core class advancement structure.

-O

Scow2
2013-09-24, 11:06 AM
I think the Wizard thing is definitely an issue (I did a spit-take when I saw that ability). When I read the fluff, I expected it to be some kind of aura or at-will 'mark' he could put on specific targets, not just a constant "Nobody can attack me"

obryn
2013-09-24, 12:44 PM
I think the Wizard thing is definitely an issue (I did a spit-take when I saw that ability). When I read the fluff, I expected it to be some kind of aura or at-will 'mark' he could put on specific targets, not just a constant "Nobody can attack me"
The thing is, if your Wizard has a pretty low AC, a feature like that is generally fine. When you mix that in with a high AC, that's where some big problems start coming in.

Flare from the Sun Cleric is another good one. If you're a Fighter who's specializing in defense, nothing you get from your class will ever be as good for defending yourself or your allies as you'd get from a two-level dip into Cleric.

To me, that's not how multiclassing should work. If you want to be the "best Fighter," that should involve staying in the Fighter class.

-O

Arbane
2013-09-24, 11:37 PM
I dunno. I think even a cursory glance at balance shows that these multiclass combos are issues. There's no sense in which a Fighter should be better at Fighting because they took 2 levels of Wizard.


Well, it's an improvement over someone being better at fighting because they took ALL their levels in Wizard.... :smallbiggrin:

Cerxi
2013-12-27, 10:31 PM
Kender constantly pick things up and pocket them, and then often forget about them. If you find yourself in need of a piece of nonmagical equipment, there is a 25 percent chance you have it. Roll a d4. If you roll a 4, you find the item in your pocket, pack, or pouch. If you roll anything else, you don’t have such an item on you, and you can’t search again for the same item until you’ve spent at least one day in a town or city. Rummaging through your pouches, pack, and pockets in this way takes 1 minute.
I don't see a GP/size limit, do you? "I wonder if I just happen to have a suit of 6,000gp Mithral plate... Oh! A 4! I do!"

Scow2
2013-12-27, 10:32 PM
It has to fit in your pocket, pouch, or pack.

Cerxi
2013-12-27, 10:37 PM
It has to fit in your pocket, pouch, or pack.

It doesn't say that it has to be the right size to fit there, it says that's where you find it. The only requirements for the item are that it's piece of nonmagical equipment that you need.

Even if we accept that as a limitation, however, there's plenty of room for abuse. The equipment book makes offhand mention of "trade goods such as bars of iron", which would easily fit in a backpack, or if you specifically want only items with a price, a spyglass or a mithral chain shirt, a 1,000gp and a 5,000gp item respectively, would fit no problem. A first level character gets 175 gold to buy their starting equipment. A Kender needs only spend half a week in a populated area to more or less guarantee pulling a mithral shirt. Gear sells for half its purchase value, netting him slightly more than 14 times normal starting gold.

Scow2
2013-12-27, 10:41 PM
It doesn't say that it has to be the right size to fit there, it says that's where you find it. The only requirements for the item are that it's piece of nonmagical equipment that you need.It doesn't need to say it has to be the right size to fit. If it doesn't fit where you're looking, there's no way for it to be in there, and thus cannot be found, thus you can't have it on you.

D&D Next does NOT use legalese. It specifies WHERE you can find your stuff.

Cerxi
2013-12-27, 10:48 PM
It doesn't need to say it has to be the right size to fit. If it doesn't fit where you're looking, there's no way for it to be in there, and thus cannot be found, thus you can't have it on you.

D&D Next does NOT use legalese. It specifies WHERE you can find your stuff.

Let's break down the power.

"If you find yourself in need of a piece of nonmagical equipment"
Oh no, the fighter's platemail broke!

"there is a 25 percent chance you have it. Roll a d4."
Okay! I rolled a 4!

"If you roll a 4, you find the item in your pocket, pack, or pouch."
What happens at this point? You fulfilled the conditions of the power. You needed an item, and you rolled a 4 to find it. There's no subclause, like many spells have, saying that "if this couldn't happen, it fizzles." If there's no exception for items that would be too large, the way forward, as written, is that you can find items that would ordinarily be too large for your backpack. Besides, when has an item being too large ever stopped D&D backpacks? The only restriction on what you can carry in a pack is weight limits, not size limits.

Scow2
2013-12-27, 10:50 PM
Actually, backpacks have specified volume limits. That people chose to ignore them (Largely because items were never given defined volumes) is beside the point.

Cerxi
2013-12-27, 10:53 PM
Actually, backpacks have specified volume limits. That people chose to ignore them (Largely because items were never given defined volumes) is beside the point.

Dang, I never noticed, but I checked and you're right, pouches and backpacks do have defined volume. Guess I'll be pulling the big stuff out of the third option, my pocket, which does not have such a limitation. :smallwink:

The Random NPC
2013-12-28, 02:25 AM
Dang, I never noticed, but I checked and you're right, pouches and backpacks do have defined volume. Guess I'll be pulling the big stuff out of the third option, my pocket, which does not have such a limitation. :smallwink:

BSF: "My kender friend, what is that long sack that disappears into your pants?"
Kender: "Oh, that's my pocket, it's large so I can fit plate mail into it."

Sith_Happens
2013-12-28, 02:41 AM
http://nancysmarriageblog.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/huge-backpack1.jpg

RustyArmor
2013-12-28, 05:10 AM
Think you are looking to much into the armor. What about powerful alchemy items, expensive gems or jewelry, keys to bank, detailed blueprints to a castle, etc.

SowZ
2013-12-28, 06:24 AM
Yeah, even if you can't pull out armor, you can make thousands of gold a day. There should definitely be a GP limit per day based on level or something.

Cerxi
2013-12-28, 07:08 AM
Think you are looking to much into the armor. What about powerful alchemy items, expensive gems or jewelry, keys to bank, detailed blueprints to a castle, etc.

Yeah, I was just trying to be as RAW as possible; the most expensive nonmagical item in the final playtest packet, AFAICT, is Mithral Plate at 6,000, followed by Mithral Scale and Mithral Shirt at 5,000, and then a Spyglass at 1,000. If you want to go that way, forget "detailed blueprints to a castle", in 4e, castles themselves are listed as items.

Segrain
2013-12-28, 08:50 AM
As written, it should work both ways: every time kender is in need of nonmagical item - even if it is something that he has in inventory - he should spend a minute searching for it, and there is still the 75% chance that he doesn't have the item on him. Probably because some other kender is going to roll a 4 soon.
And kender's backpack is better to be magical, because rummaging through it certainly counts as being in need of it.

Slipperychicken
2013-12-28, 09:14 AM
So 5E doesn't support the Kick—in—the—door style play then ? At least until high level, when it does.

That's terrible.

Scow2
2013-12-28, 10:05 AM
That's terrible.

Iron Doors are made of Railroad Tracks.

Cerxi
2013-12-28, 07:48 PM
As written, it should work both ways: every time kender is in need of nonmagical item - even if it is something that he has in inventory - he should spend a minute searching for it, and there is still the 75% chance that he doesn't have the item on him. Probably because some other kender is going to roll a 4 soon.
And kender's backpack is better to be magical, because rummaging through it certainly counts as being in need of it.

Oh my. Kender, as a race, now tend strongly towards starving to death (Well I sure count hunger as "needing food"), unless they know a druid who'll hand them goodberries, and/or dehydrating unless they can get their hands on Holy Water.

Lord Raziere
2013-12-28, 07:50 PM
Oh my. Kender, as a race, now tend strongly towards starving to death (Well I sure count hunger as "needing food"), unless they know a druid who'll hand them goodberries, and/or dehydrating unless they can get their hands on Holy Water.

So its probably not something people are going to change any time soon then, considering this side effect? :smalltongue:

Scow2
2013-12-28, 07:57 PM
Oh my. Kender, as a race, now tend strongly towards starving to death (Well I sure count hunger as "needing food"), unless they know a druid who'll hand them goodberries, and/or dehydrating unless they can get their hands on Holy Water.

Nah. They just need to know more than 4 different kinds of food and drink :3

Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll
2013-12-28, 09:07 PM
I've never understood the dominant view here that the DM doesn't exist and that common sense should be ignored when playing. Common sense dictates that if one cannot fit something in your pockets, you can't have forgotten about it and find it later. Finding an entire suit of armour in your pockets requires you to ignore the entire second half of the power as written, insisting that its "fluff" rather than actual rules. Unlike the other things posted in this thread, which ARE ridiculous, this requires you to ignore common sense in your applying the rule.

Cerxi
2013-12-28, 09:46 PM
I've never understood the dominant view here that the DM doesn't exist and that common sense should be ignored when playing. Common sense dictates that if one cannot fit something in your pockets, you can't have forgotten about it and find it later. Finding an entire suit of armour in your pockets requires you to ignore the entire second half of the power as written, insisting that its "fluff" rather than actual rules. Unlike the other things posted in this thread, which ARE ridiculous, this requires you to ignore common sense in your applying the rule.

Because if you filter it through common sense, you're not working under RAW. RAW and common sense had their divorce finalized before I was a twinkle in my pappy's eye. Most dysfunction can be averted by sufficient application of common sense. A sensible DM will not let a kender pull a brick of platinum out of his pocket by happenstance. A sensible DM will disallow broken combinations. A sensible DM would let a red dragon break through doors, likely without even a check, because it's cool.

And for the record, finding a suit of armour was literally the least significant portion of the dysfunction, that everyone seized on for some reason. The dysfunction is that all Kender have the ability to gain NI gp. Whether you do it with large valuables or small valuables, it's still ridiculous.

Talakeal
2013-12-28, 10:04 PM
Because if you filter it through common sense, you're not working under RAW. RAW and common sense had their divorce finalized before I was a twinkle in my pappy's eye. Most dysfunction can be averted by sufficient application of common sense. A sensible DM will not let a kender pull a brick of platinum out of his pocket by happenstance. A sensible DM will disallow broken combinations. A sensible DM would let a red dragon break through doors, likely without even a check, because it's cool.

And for the record, finding a suit of armour was literally the least significant portion of the dysfunction, that everyone seized on for some reason. The dysfunction is that all Kender have the ability to gain NI gp. Whether you do it with large valuables or small valuables, it's still ridiculous.

I think the bigger problem is ignoring consequences. Sure, a kender CAN pull a brick of platinum out of his pocket. But then that begs the question of where that brick came from in the first place, and how soon the original owner comes to claim it.

The rule isn't some magical creation effect, it is stated to represent the kender "borrowing" objects along their journey.

SowZ
2013-12-28, 10:15 PM
I think the bigger problem is ignoring consequences. Sure, a kender CAN pull a brick of platinum out of his pocket. But then that begs the question of where that brick came from in the first place, and how soon the original owner comes to claim it.

The rule isn't some magical creation effect, it is stated to represent the kender "borrowing" objects along their journey.

Yes, but after I make my first million gold in three days I spend half of it to hire the best mercenaries, wizards, and bribe kings and dukes to protect me. I have an awesome mansion built with top notch security and every amenity possible.

Flickerdart
2013-12-28, 10:38 PM
Yes, but after I make my first million gold in three days I spend half of it to hire the best mercenaries, wizards, and bribe kings and dukes to protect me. I have an awesome mansion built with top notch security and every amenity possible.
>be Kender
>find potion to make you giant
>pull mansion out of pocket
:amused:

Scow2
2013-12-28, 10:40 PM
Because if you filter it through common sense, you're not working under RAW. RAW and common sense had their divorce finalized before I was a twinkle in my pappy's eye. Most dysfunction can be averted by sufficient application of common sense. A sensible DM will not let a kender pull a brick of platinum out of his pocket by happenstance. A sensible DM will disallow broken combinations. A sensible DM would let a red dragon break through doors, likely without even a check, because it's cool.If you're throwing out more than half the text to focus on a single sentence, you're also not working under RAW. In order to read and interpret RAW, you need to consider the rules holistically, not minced

Cerxi
2013-12-28, 10:52 PM
If you're throwing out more than half the text to focus on a single sentence, you're also not working under RAW. In order to read and interpret RAW, you need to consider the rules holistically, not minced

Okay, for the sake of expediency, let's all agree that it has to be something that fits in a pouch, backpack, or pocket. It's not worth the effort to keep asserting a differing opinion. It's still a broken power. Flawless diamonds fit in a pouch. Mansion deeds fit in a pocket. Rare and erotic artefacts fit in a backpack. That's the point, it doesn't matter if Mithral Plate specifically can't be pulled by the ability. Let it go.

SowZ
2013-12-28, 11:14 PM
Okay, for the sake of expediency, let's all agree that it has to be something that fits in a pouch, backpack, or pocket. It's not worth the effort to keep asserting a differing opinion. It's still a broken power. Flawless diamonds fit in a pouch. Mansion deeds fit in a pocket. Rare and erotic artefacts fit in a backpack. That's the point, it doesn't matter if Mithral Plate specifically can't be pulled by the ability. Let it go.

Exotic artifacts may be worth more, though I must say that the erotic artifacts are certainly more interesting.

Scow2
2013-12-28, 11:31 PM
I shall use the Brassiere of Elemental Commanding!

SowZ
2013-12-29, 12:50 AM
I shall use the Brassiere of Elemental Commanding!

And I will don the Panties of Panacea as my armor and the Whip of Phlegethos as my weapon!

Sith_Happens
2013-12-30, 03:37 PM
Don't forget the Nipple Clamps of Exquisite Pain.

Scow2
2013-12-30, 03:43 PM
Don't forget the Nipple Clamps of Exquisite Pain.

Those are 3.X
We don't talk about that trainwreck here.

SowZ
2013-12-30, 07:30 PM
Those are 3.X
We don't talk about that trainwreck here.

I'm sure we could convert it. The collar from that cat article and the one meant for your mount could also qualify as erotic artifacts.

The Grue
2013-12-30, 10:13 PM
I suppose that depends on your mount.