V's destination and intent, end of 920

[Dwy]

My bet: The Rift.

Read Roy's words. Roy can't handle the risk of utter soul destruction. V has no reason to fear such more than a TPK. He/she would even avoid the fires below.

The real reason though? V has a scientific mindset. All the order knows about the gates is third-hand information. When that info doesn't match observations from this gate or the Soon's gate it is time to put new theories to the test.

Finally, the grim look of determination on V's face in the last panel had me convinced fully.


What do you think will happen next?

[NerdyKris]

V is going to bring Haley and Elan into the protective ring of fire, like Roy asked.

It would be incredibly stupid to go into the rift without them. If V got stuck, the party would once again be getting beaten.

[Dwy]

Roy's not preparing for survival. He's setting up the last, heroic stand. Bringing in Elan and Haley won't change that. Checking that very slim chance of escape however? Has a slim chance of ensuring survival. It is the logical way to go.

[BaronOfHell]

He/she would even avoid the fires below.
Rather meaningless notion if he/she does not exist. Would make as much sense as saying Mary will avoid damnation, because there is no Mary.

[Dwy]

Rather meaningless notion if he/she does not exist. Would make as much sense as saying Mary will avoid damnation, because there is no Mary.

And in that case, Mary would not have to exist with Mary's all-consuming guilt any longer, would she? Mary would not exist, but her pain would end.

Edit: i don't support that point of view, I just aknowledge it's existance.

[BaronOfHell]

And in that case, Mary would not have to exist with Mary's all-consuming guilt any longer, would she? Mary would not exist, but her pain would end.


What "any longer" all-consuming guilt? What pain would end? Mary does not exist, there's no guilt or pain to end.

My point is the notion of pain and guilt is meaningless in the case of Mary as well as it is in the case of anyone who doesn't exist. How can you escape something, if there is no you?

[NerdyKris]

Roy's not preparing for survival. He's setting up the last, heroic stand. Bringing in Elan and Haley won't change that. Checking that very slim chance of escape however? Has a slim chance of ensuring survival. It is the logical way to go.

I highly doubt Roy's plan is to die together right now. His plan is to have everyone together to maximize their chance of winning.

[Gift Jeraff]

V's off to strike a deal with Tarquin now that his party has an open spot.

[Dwy]

What "any longer" all-consuming guilt? What pain would end? Mary does not exist, there's no guilt or pain to end.

My point is the notion of pain and guilt is meaningless in the case of Mary as well as it is in the case of anyone who doesn't exist. How can you escape something, if there is no you?

If there is no you, you won't get to experience it. Or even be around. But you won't experience negative emotions or pain either. If the latter dominate your current existance, then it might seem more agreeable to risk ceasing to exist.

[Dwy]

V's off to strike a deal with Tarquin now that his party has an open spot.

Hahah :p If only Belkar had taken Tsukiko's offer way back the order could start a small con game of their own.

[Dwy]

I highly doubt Roy's plan is to die together right now. His plan is to have everyone together to maximize their chance of winning.

I sure would like to think so, yet panels 2 and 9 leave me thinking that he doesn't believe they'll make it even so. Whatever happens, I do believe the team will fill up their quota of badassery before it is over.

[BaronOfHell]

If there is no you, you won't get to experience it. Or even be around. But you won't experience negative emotions or pain either. If the latter dominate your current existance, then it might seem more agreeable to risk ceasing to exist.

There's a vital difference of not experiencing pain because:
A) There's no pain
B) There's no experience

While A is nice, B may seem even worse.

[Bulldog Psion]

I seriously doubt that V would do something so reckless. There's absolutely nothing to indicate there's any way back through the rift once you're in it. By diving in, he'd be taking a huge risk that her firepower wasn't available to Roy at a life and death moment.

I think that Durkon sending a dominated Tarquin goon through the rift would be a better bet.

[SaintRidley]

I seriously doubt that V would do something so reckless. There's absolutely nothing to indicate there's any way back through the rift once you're in it. By diving in, he'd be taking a huge risk that her firepower wasn't available to Roy at a life and death moment.

I think that Durkon sending a dominated Tarquin goon through the rift would be a better bet.

Could be V will do a Bugsby's Minion-Tossing Hand and chuck an enemy soldier into the rift and see if they survive. Kind of like Redcloak's prisoner experiment, but lacking the control group because there's no nearby cliff to throw another solider off.

[Amphiox]

Could be V will do a Bugsby's Minion-Tossing Hand and chuck an enemy soldier into the rift and see if they survive. Kind of like Redcloak's prisoner experiment, but lacking the control group because there's no nearby cliff to throw another solider off.

Doing something like that for that reason?

Well, let's just say that's something that would, more likely than not, wedge the keystone clean out of V's redemption arc(h)....

[Gift Jeraff]

Could be V will do a Bugsby's Minion-Tossing Hand and chuck an enemy soldier into the rift and see if they survive. Kind of like Redcloak's prisoner experiment, but lacking the control group because there's no nearby cliff to throw another solider off.

Even Redcloak wasn't evil enough to go through with that.

[Starwulf]

There's a vital difference of not experiencing pain because:
A) There's no pain
B) There's no experience

While A is nice, B may seem even worse.

Why would B be worse? If I know that my afterlife is going to be nothing more then pain and mental anguish, for all eternity, you darn tooting I'll happily pick the "no longer exist" path. By far the better choice.

[Steward]

I highly doubt Roy's plan is to die together right now. His plan is to have everyone together to maximize their chance of winning.

Agreed. I think Roy just wants to bring Elan near him so that the soldiers will be forced to hold their fire. It doesn't feel right to think that Roy is resigned to a TPK.

[NerdyKris]

Agreed. I think Roy just wants to bring Elan near him so that the soldiers will be forced to hold their fire. It doesn't feel right to think that Roy is resigned to a TPK.

It would also be dramatically fitting for the Order reunited to take out an entire army under Roy's leadership with Elan's bard song support.

Except that every scenario that has them beating the army that I can imagine also would involve three high level characters joining the fight against them. Possibly four if the cat girl came through the portal with bandana guy.

[Ghost Nappa]

It would also be dramatically fitting for the Order reunited to take out an entire army under Roy's leadership with Elan's bard song support.

Except that every scenario that has them beating the army that I can imagine also would involve three high level characters joining the fight against them. Possibly four if the cat girl came through the portal with bandana guy.

1) Order takes down the Army.
2) Tarquin, Psychic-Lady, Accountant, Fourth Guy Vs. Order...could go either way.

Note that if the Order does go into the Rift, it will be perfectly harmless.

Or you know, not something that is going to wind up totally and utterly removing them from all of existence.

Maybe Polymorphed into Ducks. That could be a thing.

[Forikroder]

My bet: The Rift.

Read Roy's words. Roy can't handle the risk of utter soul destruction. V has no reason to fear such more than a TPK. He/she would even avoid the fires below.

The real reason though? V has a scientific mindset. All the order knows about the gates is third-hand information. When that info doesn't match observations from this gate or the Soon's gate it is time to put new theories to the test.

Finally, the grim look of determination on V's face in the last panel had me convinced fully.


What do you think will happen next?

that wasnt a grim look of determination on Vs face that was a look of accpeting the inevitbable teasing from blackwin

even if V goes through the gate he cant prove to Roy the snarl is not there and even hen Durkon cant enter water and Roy cant swim with all the gear weighing him down so even ignoring the possiblity of being UNMADE its still a strategical bad call so early on

they would at least wait until they know there dead before making such a gambit

[NerdyKris]

Note that if the Order does go into the Rift, it will be perfectly harmless.

Or you know, not something that is going to wind up totally and utterly removing them from all of existence.

Well obviously the author isn't going to have the characters do something if it ends the story right there. But that doesn't mean the rift is harmless. It just means if they do go through it then we know it won't erase them from existence.

But we haven't proven that the rift is harmless yet. And it's highly unlikely Roy is going to risk jumping into it vs death. Like he said, this is a world with a known afterlife. If he dies, he goes to heaven. If he gets unmade, well, he gets nothing. For all we know, it STILL does that and Roy is right.

[colanderman]

Assume for a second that the IFCC still has a way to monitor V. (They do still have the half-fiendish Teevo.)

They're fairly invested in keeping V's soul intact. Without it, they lose a significant tactical advantage.

If V makes any sort of motion toward the rift, AND the IFCC doesn't know that the rift doesn't destroy souls, they will re-take his soul. Probably try to convince him not to enter the rift.

However, if the IFCC does know that the rift doesn't destroy souls, they will let him be.

Of course, they could bluff and try to keep him from entering it just to keep him in the dark about its true nature. In this case, V gets to waste soul-time at a relatively unimportant (on the diabolic scale) point of time.

So either V learns that the rift is safe, or he gets to pay off more of his debt early. Win-win for him. The only "gotcha", like I mentioned above, is that this relies on the IFCC still watching. They might not be, and V doesn't have any reason to believe that they still are.

[Warren Dew]

V is going to bring Haley and Elan into the protective ring of fire, like Roy asked.
Agreed.


It would be incredibly stupid to go into the rift without them. If V got stuck, the party would once again be getting beaten.
If the party is on track to lose even with Vaarsuvius, risking only himself to determine if the rift is a safe escape option might make a lot of sense. I think it's likely to happen after Haley and Elan are retrieved.

[NerdyKris]

Agreed.


If the party is on track to lose even with Vaarsuvius, risking only himself to determine if the rift is a safe escape option might make a lot of sense. I think it's likely to happen after Haley and Elan are retrieved.

Except if V leaves they WILL lose, no question. If V stays, they have a chance of winning, however slim. Right now, their best option is staying alive until something happens that they can take advantage of. But if V leaves, their chances of staying alive diminish greatly.

[Forikroder]

Except if V leaves they WILL lose, no question. If V stays, they have a chance of winning, however slim. Right now, their best option is staying alive until something happens that they can take advantage of. But if V leaves, their chances of staying alive diminish greatly.

really though if there desperate enough to escape into the rift it would be safer if everyone but V and Durkula to slit there throats, then V can cast fly on Durkula they can nab some small piece for ressurection and GTFO

[Warren Dew]

Except if V leaves they WILL lose, no question. If V stays, they have a chance of winning, however slim. Right now, their best option is staying alive until something happens that they can take advantage of. But if V leaves, their chances of staying alive diminish greatly.
Vaarsuvius can scout the rift and still come back to report the results.

[Bulldog Psion]

Vaarsuvius can scout the rift and still come back to report the results.

Unless it's a one-way ticket, in which case he has removed herself from the fight more certainly than death would, since Durkula might find 10 minutes to cast resurrection on him if she was killed.

[Chantelune]

Vaarsuvius can scout the rift and still come back to report the results.

There's no indication that its perfectly safe, even for us. Fow all we know, if V and just V enters the rift, she might get destroyed, the order sees that from afar and get convinced that the rifts are NOT a valid escape plan. They also loose their main spellcaster definitively this time. And plot armor won't apply for sure there. Even without V, the story would keep going with the rest of the order.

But taking such a risk when she would be more efficient helping her party to survive ? Don't really see it.

Also, Roy can't expect that a TPK wouldn't put a stop to their quest. He's too well aware that at least one of them need to escape if they have any chance to get back and even that way, it would require part of their body. And even if they were to all give a finger to one of them, unless its Durkon, it would still require the surviving member to find a high level enough cleric.

Too big a risk for Roy to take, I think.

[BaronOfHell]

Why would B be worse? If I know that my afterlife is going to be nothing more then pain and mental anguish, for all eternity, you darn tooting I'll happily pick the "no longer exist" path. By far the better choice.

No experience would be worse in the same sense that if you were never born, the universe happened, then that's it and no time has passed (as "you" aren't there to have time passed to).

I think it's a common thing of todays world to evaluate upon ones life in regard to how much enjoyment it has offered, and has to offer, without considering the fact that enjoyment, and its opposite, are features of life itself, and not some kind of eternal absolute measure. To me, it does not make much sense to make such an analysis, when one is talking about eternal existence. I would not be surprised if V sees it differently though, since it's, as said, a common feature of todays world.


Vaarsuvius can scout the rift and still come back to report the results.

No water or cool wind seems to go through the rift. Not certain V can go back then. It's not even certain what they see is what there is, or if you're on the other side that there's a tear in the fabric of reality as well. Also there's more pressing matters at the moment, in my opinon.

[Tass]

Rather meaningless notion if he/she does not exist. Would make as much sense as saying Mary will avoid damnation, because there is no Mary.

Well, in the real world people do commit suicide, or ask for their respirator to be turned off to avoid the pain of continued existence.

[PyCryptoFTW]

My bet: The Rift.

What do you think will happen next?

I believe the same, they are at dead end otherwise.

perhaps can also send blackwing to report at :haley: and :elan: ? they would finally notice the bird's existence :smalltongue: and importance ?

a small question about familiars: are the mentally controlled or linked with the caster ? so, can Suvie talks thru the bird ?

and Caster death, imply also familiar death ? (if yes, this mean that also Quarr is dead ?)

[Tass]

a small question about familiars: are the mentally controlled or linked with the caster ? so, can Suvie talks thru the bird ?

and Caster death, imply also familiar death ? (if yes, this mean that also Quarr is dead ?)

V has an empatic link with blackwing, but cannot directly talk through him.

[BaronOfHell]

Well, in the real world people do commit suicide, or ask for their respirator to be turned off to avoid the pain of continued existence.

I didn't want to make this a real world analogue, sorry if I did. I'd just like to say that in OotS, you know that you've an eternal soul. In the real world, we've no idea what the belief of people who commits ... comes upon such tragic fate, is. Nor can one expect a person in such a state to be able to reason properly given the stress level.

[i6uuaq]

Er... Send bird through rift?


No loss if one way. Assume telepathic link works across planes.

But I think V is just following orders here.

[veti]

Rather meaningless notion if he/she does not exist. Would make as much sense as saying Mary will avoid damnation, because there is no Mary.

:xykon: "Anything to avoid the big fire below".

Anything.

And who was Xykon speaking to, in that exchange? Why, I do believe it was V. That's foreshadowing, of her doing something precisely this reckless.

That and the fact that they're desperate. If Tarquin really wants to kill Roy, and frankly I don't see him changing his mind any time soon, then there is - currently - no hope at all. The only way out is through the rift.

[BaronOfHell]

And who was Xykon speaking to, in that exchange? Why, I do believe it was V. That's foreshadowing, of her doing something precisely this reckless.



That my friend.. that is ... absolutely brilliant thinking. I've never thought of it that way.

I wonder if it then also foreshadows something about Xykon's ultimate demise? It was after all his words.

[Kish]

Er... Send bird through rift?
"Sir Greenhilt has decided that we will not risk ourselves in the rift, which might contain a monster capable of devouring souls. I order you, Blackwing, to fly into the rift, for you are utterly expendable."

Sounds like Vaarsuvius all right! (That is, Vaarsuvius circa #650 and before; of course, Blackwing would have responded with "Forget it!" even then.)

[Emanick]

I don't expect it, but the smartest thing for V to do right now would be to use a Bugsby's Hand spell to force a live dinosaur through the Rift and then watch to see what happens. Perhaps creatures with INT 1 don't have souls, but I expect that they do.

[SaintRidley]

Doing something like that for that reason?

Well, let's just say that's something that would, more likely than not, wedge the keystone clean out of V's redemption arc(h)....


Even Redcloak wasn't evil enough to go through with that.

I'm well aware. Merely floating a (highly unlikely, given V's projected move toward redemption) possibility for how to figure out what's up with the rift.

[malloyd]

I don't expect it, but the smartest thing for V to do right now would be to use a Bugsby's Hand spell to force a live dinosaur through the Rift and then watch to see what happens. Perhaps creatures with INT 1 don't have souls, but I expect that they do.

I suspect it may not be that easy to push something through the rifts. Otherwise it becomes really hard to understand why Xykon hasn't already done it. Seriously he was sending minions into the gate defenses well after he expected to actually gain anything from it, you'd expect him to at least try to send a few into the open rift, if only to see if the Snarl destroyed them in a more entertaining fashion.

[Gift Jeraff]

I don't expect it, but the smartest thing for V to do right now would be to use a Bugsby's Hand spell to force a live dinosaur through the Rift and then watch to see what happens. Perhaps creatures with INT 1 don't have souls, but I expect that they do.

All living creatures except elementals and outsiders have souls. Also, it would be evil.

[Warren Dew]

Unless it's a one-way ticket, in which case he has removed herself from the fight more certainly than death would, since Durkula might find 10 minutes to cast resurrection on him if she was killed.
That's a risk, sure. Is it more probable than a total party kill if Vaarsuvius stays behind, though? Based on what Vaarsuvius knows, I think the chances of saving the party are substantially higher if Vaarsuvius scouts the rift.

[BaronOfHell]

If you're in a situation where you seriously think there's anything to the whole soul undone business, then you don't throw any living being into the rift.. at least not if you're the good guys. Unless it's a self sacrifice.

[Emanick]

All living creatures except elementals and outsiders have souls. Also, it would be evil.

It's an animal. As far as I'm aware, killing an animal for a fairly good reason - like, for food - isn't considered Evil, unlike with sapient beings, and Vaarsuvius definitely has at least as good a reason here. I suspect the same distinction may apply for destroying its soul.

Do outsiders really not have souls? That's weird. I have a difficult time not imagining, say, Celia having one.

[SaintRidley]

Do outsiders really not have souls? That's weird. I have a difficult time not imagining, say, Celia having one.

Difference between killing and unmaking in the animal example aside, the thing with outsiders and elementals isn't that they don't have souls.

They do.

It's that, unlike everything else, their bodies and souls are inseparable. Their bodies are their souls. Roy, for instance, has a soul completely separate and separable from his body. Celia, however, does not have that duality. If she is killed, her soul dies too. There is no resurrection for her. Which is probably part of the Giant's choice to use her as his everyperson stand-in in DStP - she is like a real-world human in that respect. It would be absurd for someone who can't get a resurrection to do that many insane things that adventurers do on a daily basis.

[NerdyKris]

They have a conversation about that exact thing at the end of Don't Split The Party (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0669.html), in fact.

[hamishspence]

Ruleswise it's possible to resurrect outsiders with the right magic-

but it should probably be thought of as, not calling the soul back from the afterlife, but rather, sifting through the plane and putting all the dissolved bits of soul back together.

[stavro375]

My bet: The Rift.
Finally, the grim look of determination on V's face in the last panel had me convinced fully.

In all likelihood, V was grimly awaiting Blackwing's snark. To paraphrase an earlier conversation:
:vaarsuvius: I have a plan.
Blackwing: Does it involve soul selling?
:vaarsuvius: No! It involves coordination.
Blackwing: Coordinated soul selling?

I personally considered "The Order will jump into the gate" an insane fan theory, up until the point where it was mentioned multiple times in-comic. It's still an insane fan theory, just one that's almost assured to be proven right.

[Kornaki]

I personally considered "The Order will jump into the gate" an insane fan theory, up until the point where it was mentioned multiple times in-comic. It's still an insane fan theory, just one that's almost assured to be proven right.

I think it's more likely Rich has either seen/predicted rampant speculation in the forum, and is having Roy explain why he's not so that in 10 pages there aren't 10,000 threads saying "Why didn't OOTS go into the rift?"

[Unisus]

Just an idea on the rifts (not sure if anyone came up with this by now):

We have WoG that the world inside the rift is not our real world - but how about the world of OotS? I mean, if there are tears in the fabric of the multiverse, how probable is it that they are all accumulated on one planet on one plane? What if those rifts don't lead into some other dimension with a destructive abomination, but just are a kind of wormholeleading from one spot of the multiverse to another? What if Blackwing just saw the planet the OotS are walking upon? Maybe jumping into the Draketooth rift just leads you to some shore?

Maybe not the best theory, but i think i saw even worse ;)

[Trillium]

Just an idea on the rifts (not sure if anyone came up with this by now):

We have WoG that the world inside the rift is not our real world - but how about the world of OotS? I mean, if there are tears in the fabric of the multiverse, how probable is it that they are all accumulated on one planet on one plane? What if those rifts don't lead into some other dimension with a destructive abomination, but just are a kind of wormholeleading from one spot of the multiverse to another? What if Blackwing just saw the planet the OotS are walking upon? Maybe jumping into the Draketooth rift just leads you to some shore?

Maybe not the best theory, but i think i saw even worse ;)

Actually, Azure City is situated on a sea coast! May be Girard's Rift leads to Soon's Rift...

There also may be a sixth rift, somewhere in near space of OotSverse, which Soon's Rift leads to (and from its perspective Blackwing has seen the planet)

[Trurl]

Is entering the rift a good idea at all?

If the Order enters the rift, Tarkin merely needs to watch if they survive. If the Order does seem to survive, then what would prevent Tarkin from entering the rift himself with an army to conquer uncharted territories and become Exalted Evil Tyrant of the Two Worlds(TM)? And if the Order does not survive, then Tarkin is not their greatest problem anyway.

[Skarn]

Rather meaningless notion if he/she does not exist. Would make as much sense as saying Mary will avoid damnation, because there is no Mary.
Still might be better. As I understand it, those in the lower planes end up becoming a demon at some point, who then cause more pain and suffering on other people as well (and since becoming a demon means becoming an outsider, well, erasure now isn't so bad in comparison to being turned evil for a few centuries and then being erased on second death anyway).

Given that the IFCC is making it pretty clear they're set to screw V over if he tries to do anything important, the potential benefit of doing this and finding a way out may outweigh the risk of V being erased and then not being there when it counts, when V wasn't going to be able to anyway.

Because they're in the middle of a prolonged battle, this might be the one time V can actually do something without being prevented from it. The IFCC could stop him in an attempt to protect their "investment", but not forever.

[Souhiro]

There's a vital difference of not experiencing pain because:
A) There's no pain
B) There's no experience

While A is nice, B may seem even worse.
People with suicide tendencies, or at least, people who had considered to put an end to their lives would think that it's a positive situation. People who are positive that there is an afterlife... wouldn't look at it as a posibility... assuming that there is at least one chance to escape hell.

And also... I think that V will go to the rift. Taking Elan and Haley won't do anything, maybe even that would doom them (The minions aren't going to kill them!)
Also, taking the risk is a 100% selfless deed for V. He may be facing oblibion, the ultimate destruction of the being, and he's eager to face the consecuences, for the sake of his friends. If there's an atonement... this is.



Could be V will do a Bugsby's Minion-Tossing Hand and chuck an enemy soldier into the rift and see if they survive. Kind of like Redcloak's prisoner experiment, but lacking the control group because there's no nearby cliff to throw another solider off.
Man, that one IS EVIL. I hate Redcloak with all my being because of that: He wanted to throw some prisoners into the rift; when he thinks that it would destroy them, body and soul. That kind of act (moreso if a cleric does it: Clerics know and experiments the power of the gods) would be 100% out of character for everybody. Even Belkar!

[F.Harr]

Er... Send bird through rift?


No loss if one way. Assume telepathic link works across planes.

But I think V is just following orders here.

How about a yo-yo?

[stavro375]

I think it's more likely Rich has either seen/predicted rampant speculation in the forum, and is having Roy explain why he's not so that in 10 pages there aren't 10,000 threads saying "Why didn't OOTS go into the rift?"
We've had 2 different characters seriously propose jumping into (what we've been told is) the soul-annihilating prison of a god-killing abomination. As the old saying goes, "The Giant's refuting this specific insane fan theory with suspicious vigour." Unless there's precedent he's done so before...

[Skarn]

We've had 2 different characters seriously propose jumping into (what we've been told is) the soul-annihilating prison of a god-killing abomination. As the old saying goes, "The Giant's refuting this specific insane fan theory with suspicious vigour." Unless there's precedent he's done so before...
Sure, he's shot down ideas before. He's the leader, it's kind of a part of the job.

Besides, he's not refuting it. He's simply offering Roy's perspective on the matter. It would be odd if they didn't even consider it, especially since there seems to be no other way out. How often does a last stand actually play out the way you want it to, you know?

That said, V subjectively has a lot less to lose here than Roy does because of the whole "never do anything important again" thing. And Roy doesn't know about that yet, so the conversation isn't necessarily over.

[JSSheridan]

It's plausible that Tarquin won't hurt Haley or Elan, so if V has a Fly spell, then Roy could ask Elan and Haley if they will be okay with them running off and meeting up with them later. V then casts Fly on Roy, Durkon goes Dire Bat, and V carrying Mr. scruffy, Durkon, and Roy carrying Belkar fly off into the sunset. Encumbrance being no issue.

[Roland Itiative]

Er... Send bird through rift?


No loss if one way. Assume telepathic link works across planes.

But I think V is just following orders here.

That would be a huge step back on V's character development. Namely, the fact he stopped treating Blackwing like a convenient class feature to be acknowledged only when it's going to be used, and started treating him like the intelligent creature he is.

Blackwing may, at some point, volunteer to enter the Rift, but the current V would never send him there against his will.


I suspect it may not be that easy to push something through the rifts. Otherwise it becomes really hard to understand why Xykon hasn't already done it.

Who says he hasn't? We don't follow Xykon's every action, and if he did do something like that (which, I agree, is completely in-character for him, specially since he spent quite a long time bored out of his bony ass in Gobbotopia), it would make sense for such a scene not to be shown, so we don't know how the Rifts work.

Redcloak's teasing of O-Chul could simply be that, teasing (or, to be more specific, psychological torture). It doesn't need to mean Team Evil never tried that before.

And about V deciding to destroy their own soul in order to escape Hell... You guys are all forgetting V isn't Evil. Sure, they hacked up a very high innocent body count with Familicide, and making a deal with fiends can't really be considered a Neutral act either, but redemption is not beyond their reach. Their deal didn't include permanent ownership of the soul, after all. So, V can avoid the "great fires below" simply by truly changing their ways and living long enough for that to "outweight" their Evil acts, which is surely happening. Helping in keeping the IFCC from winning whatever it is they have to win, for instance, would lessen considerably the weight of their actions.

Xykon, yes, he'll go to Hell (well, the Abyss) when he's destroyed, but that's because he's Evil, knows that, and doesn't, or ever will, work on being anything other than Evil.

[Kish]

Man, that one IS EVIL. I hate Redcloak with all my being because of that: He wanted to throw some prisoners into the rift; when he thinks that it would destroy them, body and soul.
Not to even dream of interfering with your frothing obsessive hatred of Redcloak, but you do realize that Rich explicitly said that Redcloak was bluffing, and that the only thing that stopped Redcloak from throwing the prisoners into the rift was Redcloak, right?...Right?...I'll show myself out.

[F.Harr]

Besides, he's not refuting it. He's simply offering Roy's perspective on the matter. It would be odd if they didn't even consider it, especially since there seems to be no other way out. How often does a last stand actually play out the way you want it to, you know?



It rather depends on if you're taking the view of the ones experiencing the last stand or not.


It's plausible that Tarquin won't hurt Haley or Elan, so if V has a Fly spell, then Roy could ask Elan and Haley if they will be okay with them running off and meeting up with them later. V then casts Fly on Roy, Durkon goes Dire Bat, and V carrying Mr. scruffy, Durkon, and Roy carrying Belkar fly off into the sunset. Encumbrance being no issue.

That's not a bad idea. but it might take a while to get Elan/Haely back with the group. Party-splitting again.


Not to even dream of interfering with your frothing obsessive hatred of Redcloak, but you do realize that Rich explicitly said that Redcloak was bluffing, and that the only thing that stopped Redcloak from throwing the prisoners into the rift was Redcloak, right?...Right?...I'll show myself out.

Yeah, you BETTER run! Wait, I agree with you. Hang on! I'll get my hat and join you!

[Scurvy Cur]

We've had 2 different characters seriously propose jumping into (what we've been told is) the soul-annihilating prison of a god-killing abomination. As the old saying goes, "The Giant's refuting this specific insane fan theory with suspicious vigour." Unless there's precedent he's done so before...

I submit Death Knight Miko. That was a crazy fan theory that got shot down rather resoundingly.

[Spoomeister]

After she brings back Haley and Elan, well... V volunteering to fly into the rift herself might end up helping a couple of ways.

If she heads for it, and the IFCC doesn't stop her, then either she traverses it alright or she doesn't. If she then traverses it safely, there's a whole lot of new info on the rift. If she doesn't, then her soul is unmade, which is likely a better fate than what the IFCC had in mind for her.

If she heads for it, and the IFCC does stop her, then the IFCC are reasonably convinced there's a chance the rift destroys souls, so they would keep her from flying into it, to protect their investment. But all they can do is prevent her up until their time on her soul is up, after which case they'd need to let her go (in which case see previous points) or interfere more directly (and I don't know if they're allowed to do that).

There's the little matter of what that does to Blackwing, of course. And naturally there's the possibility of traversing the rift safely but not being able to get back, which not only proves nothing to the party but also helps the IFCC perfectly.

But in all other respects, this is one possible plan for her assuming that she sees this as a necessary sacrifice.

[F.Harr]

Or, they could use a yo-yo. Or one of the corpses that they're going to have to start stacking like cordwood pretty soon and not run the risk of pre-maturely ending an aly's life or getting the interest of the deicidic abomination.

.

[Souhiro]

Not to even dream of interfering with your frothing obsessive hatred of Redcloak, but you do realize that Rich explicitly said that Redcloak was bluffing, and that the only thing that stopped Redcloak from throwing the prisoners into the rift was Redcloak, right?...Right?...I'll show myself out.
Okay, I didn't knew that.

Maybe that he has a little, black and almost rotten heart inside all those green and stinky flesh and goblinoid bones.

Where did Rich said that? I always saw Redcloak as an abomination to clerics due that!

[Warren Dew]

Okay, I didn't knew that.

Maybe that he has a little, black and almost rotten heart inside all those green and stinky flesh and goblinoid bones.

Where did Rich said that? I always saw Redcloak as an abomination to clerics due that!
Why would Redcloak be an "abomination to clerics" because of that? After all, his deity's plan potentially involves destroying the souls of everyone in the world. He would just be adhering to the philosophy of his god.

[veti]

Is entering the rift a good idea at all?

If the Order enters the rift, Tarkin merely needs to watch if they survive. If the Order does seem to survive, then what would prevent Tarkin from entering the rift himself with an army to conquer uncharted territories and become Exalted Evil Tyrant of the Two Worlds(TM)? And if the Order does not survive, then Tarkin is not their greatest problem anyway.

"Is entering the rift a good idea" - depends on what the alternative is. If the only available alternative is dying where they stand, I'm going to say "it's worth a try".

Specifically, it's worth V trying. She's flying, so there's no issue with the whole "open ocean" thing - and if there's a shore directly behind the rift, she'll be able to come back and tell the others so.

I now think this has been foreshadowed twice. Once, as I mentioned earlier, during Xykon's rant, and again here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0669.html), where Roy said - and I have to think this was intentional irony on the Giant's part - that people who don't know about the afterlife would be a lot less willing to risk death. I think V's about to put herself in that position, deliberately.

As for Tarquin following them - with one-half a regiment, one-half an adventuring party, no maps, no intelligence, he's going to conquer a whole world? I don't think so. He's fine where he is, thanks. With the Order out of the way, the immediate danger to him will be past, so there's no pressing need to pursue them.

[Skarn]

And about V deciding to destroy their own soul in order to escape Hell... You guys are all forgetting V isn't Evil. Sure, they hacked up a very high innocent body count with Familicide, and making a deal with fiends can't really be considered a Neutral act either, but redemption is not beyond their reach. Their deal didn't include permanent ownership of the soul, after all. So, V can avoid the "great fires below" simply by truly changing their ways and living long enough for that to "outweight" their Evil acts, which is surely happening. Helping in keeping the IFCC from winning whatever it is they have to win, for instance, would lessen considerably the weight of their actions.
I'm well aware of that, but I'm also aware of the fact that none of them can teleport and they're running out of options. V (and V alone) might be willing to risk testing the gate if it gets them out of an otherwise impossible situation. Future potential for redemption means nothing if they can't get out of this alive.

The problem isn't the mooks: it's them running out of spells and supplies while Team Tarquin sits there drinking tea, waiting for the right moment to swoop in and end it definitively. And given that Laurin's probably got Greater Teleport as well, running away likely wouldn't be that effective. From what I can tell, the only thing that can help them at this point seems to be reinforcements arriving out of nowhere or them escaping through the gate. Unless one of those wands Z had can do something amazing that is.

[veti]

And about V deciding to destroy their own soul in order to escape Hell... You guys are all forgetting V isn't Evil.

You seem to be forgetting, V doesn't believe going into the rift involves destroying her own soul. I mean, she knows it's a possibility, but she's more inclined to put weight on Blackwing's and her own observations that suggest the contrary.

And in order to redeem herself, V needs to live, and she needs to pull her weight. So what's she going to do in this situation?

Follow Roy's orders (or alternatively, do something suicidal like "attack Tarquin personally") and participate in a TPK?
Turn Invisible and desert her friends, hoping to be able to resurrect them later?
Or, take a chance that might save everyone?


I'm thinking option 3.

[stavro375]

I submit Death Knight Miko. That was a crazy fan theory that got shot down rather resoundingly.
But that got shot down once. Tsukiko sees Miko's dead body, contemplates zombifying it, decides not to. IMO, insane fan theories only need to be shot down once, and the most likely reason for "refuting" an insane fan theory multiples times, is to foreshadow its coming true...

[BaronOfHell]

Also, taking the risk is a 100% selfless deed for V. He may be facing oblibion, the ultimate destruction of the being, and he's eager to face the consecuences, for the sake of his friends. If there's an atonement... this is.

I disagree. In my opinion, it's more like... cowardice? I agree that atonement requires facing the consequences, but the consequences is not for V to decide. Rather, it's at minimum what has to be done to make up for a wrong as much as V possibly can. Even if it requires of V to risk/invest hir life, but not the other way around.

[Skarn]

Where did Rich said that? I always saw Redcloak as an abomination to clerics due that!
Did he have to say it?

Redcloak didn't do it. He could have. There were no jedi mind tricks used, he simply decided it wasn't going to work. He could have thrown one or two in as a test to see if O-Chul was faking. But he didn't because apparently that would be low, even by his standards.

Why would Redcloak be an "abomination to clerics" because of that? After all, his deity's plan potentially involves destroying the souls of everyone in the world. He would just be adhering to the philosophy of his god.
Heh, true. Though, same as with Redcloak, it's a bluff. No one has anything to gain by destroying the world, but the other gods might think he would do it if he didn't get his way.

But that got shot down once. Tsukiko sees Miko's dead body, contemplates zombifying it, decides not to. IMO, insane fan theories only need to be shot down once, and the most likely reason for "refuting" an insane fan theory multiples times, is to foreshadow its coming true...
Like I said, it wasn't really shot down, just... considered and passed on for the moment. If things get ugly or V decides to do it on their own, that can easily change.

I disagree. In my opinion, it's more like... cowardice? I agree that atonement requires facing the consequences, but the consequences is not for V to decide. Rather, it's at minimum what has to be done to make up for a wrong as much as V possibly can. Even if it requires of V to risk/invest hir life, but not the other way around.
It's still undergoing a substantial personal risk, and done at least partially out of choice.(Partially out of necessity.) It may not equate to a full atonement, but it should count for something in my opinion.

[Cerussite]

You seem to be forgetting, V doesn't believe going into the rift involves destroying her own soul. I mean, she knows it's a possibility, but she's more inclined to put weight on Blackwing's and her own observations that suggest the contrary.

And in order to redeem herself, V needs to live, and she needs to pull her weight. So what's she going to do in this situation?

Follow Roy's orders (or alternatively, do something suicidal like "attack Tarquin personally") and participate in a TPK?
Turn Invisible and desert her friends, hoping to be able to resurrect them later?
Or, take a chance that might save everyone?


I'm thinking option 3.

Why would bringing Elan and Haley into the WoF be a TPK? This battle is one that's guaranteed to not be a TPK, given Tarquin's unwillingness to kill Elan and Haley.

V alone has nothing to gain by entering the rift.

- If she goes in, and she doesn't get eaten by the snarl, she just abandoned three of her friends (and her love interest, Belkar, most of all) to something that may be a certain death. Using her magic to save HER behind alone before was one of the things that led V to go crazy in the first place. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0623.html) Fleeing to the rift alone would be a huge backwards step in her character development.

- If she goes in, and her soul is eaten by the Snarl, she can't atone anymore for the evil she's done, which seems to be her intent since she realized the magnitude of her actions, AND she just abandoned her friends to what may be a certain death. Also, I'm led to believe not existing blows.

[veti]

V alone has nothing to gain by entering the rift.

- If she goes in, and she doesn't get eaten by the snarl, she just abandoned three of her friends (and her love interest, Belkar, most of all) to something that may be a certain death. Using her magic to save HER behind alone before was one of the things that led V to go crazy in the first place. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0623.html) Fleeing to the rift alone would be a huge backwards step in her character development.

- If she goes in, and her soul is eaten by the Snarl, she can't atone anymore for the evil she's done, which seems to be her intent since she realized the magnitude of her actions, AND she just abandoned her friends to what may be a certain death. Also, I'm led to believe not existing blows.

Ah, right. You're assuming it's a one-way trip.

I'm assuming that she can fly through the rift, look around, and fly back again in a matter of a few rounds.

"Being eaten by the snarl" is a risk, yes, and it's what makes the whole venture heroic. Without that uncertainty, it'd just be a routine scout.

[Cerussite]

Ah, right. You're assuming it's a one-way trip.

I'm assuming that she can fly through the rift, look around, and fly back again in a matter of a few rounds.

"Being eaten by the snarl" is a risk, yes, and it's what makes the whole venture heroic. Without that uncertainty, it'd just be a routine scout.

Risking yourself for nothing isn't heroic. It's just idiotic.

Regardless of what V finds there, those rounds she spends in there are rounds that she's not helping the party. And even if she does find something noteworthy, they STILL have to go get Xykon and prevent him from controlling the gates immediately after this encounter. She's got nothing to gain, but a lot to lose.

[BaronOfHell]

It's still undergoing a substantial personal risk, and done at least partially out of choice.(Partially out of necessity.) It may not equate to a full atonement, but it should count for something in my opinion.

You've lost me, please elaborate. After all, it's also a substantial personal risk, done out of choice, to play Russian roulette, but it's not an atonement for anything. I'm certain that's not what's meant though, hence I'm lost.

Edit: Which incidentally is what I meant by "not the other way around".

[F.Harr]

What's "WoF"?

[Cerussite]

What's "WoF"?

Wall of Fire.

[F.Harr]

Thank you.

[Dwy]

You've lost me, please elaborate. After all, it's also a substantial personal risk, done out of choice, to play Russian roulette, but it's not an atonement for anything. I'm certain that's not what's meant though, hence I'm lost.

Edit: Which incidentally is what I meant by "not the other way around".
Playing russian roulette with 5 bullets and only one empty chamber, in a situation where winning incidentally also could save your friends, is the metaphor I'd go for to explain that. It's an extremely risky gamble, losing means losing everything, and winning will only give your friends a slim chance of survival... it's not a smart tactic, but it's an act of pretty extreme altruism.

[BaronOfHell]

Thank you. I didn't realize V's self sacrifice was for saving the order.

[Dwy]

Now, I'm not saying it wouldn't be even more fitting if the giant lets the situation escalate a little first. Say by putting the bigger dinosaurs into the fight, letting V spend a few more spells, and having Tarquin and his team walk towards the Order deliberately in slow motion.

[JustAnotherSoul]

Hi. I've been lurking, but this has been bugging me and I think I'm gonna use my one cast of Summon Wall of Text now.

I don't see it. I really don't. It's intriguing and I kinda wanna know more about the rift-verse, and it looked possible when they were next to the rift but they'd basically have to fight through the army, and fight through team Tarquin to get to the rift anyways. Whomever said Tarquin wants Roy dead is right. He isn't going to let him escape through the rift, and it's clear he's maneuvered to cut him off from the rift already. So if the Order starts moving that way through the army Team Tarquin could easily move down the slope and cut them off. So they have to manage to fight their way through the better part of the army and team Tarquin anyways, and are hopping into the rift. Now they have to hope that the story they were told of the rift doesn't have a grain of truth because supposedly it's a prison that's outside of all other existance and even if it's not actually a prison, it IS outside of these planes otherwise "someone would have just plane shifted over and looked to see what was over there". It is also outside of the influence of the gods, or it might simply have been built without the ability to sustain magic. Either way, theres a good chance that there may be absolutely no magic in that 'plane' (read: Durkon is just a corpse, V is effectively a commoner, their equipment is just masterwork, and they have no reliable means of coming back if the rift is 5 feet above the water).

That's disregarding the more pressing concerns that the rift right there may be the ONLY rift on that planet (which means Tarquin could easily gate camp them anyways), the atmosphere may not be breathable, and it's possible that the world on the other side of this rift doesn't have land for weeks in any direction (we saw a world from afar in the other rift, which means the Azure city rift came out in space, so we know they can be almost anywhere in the other universe and thus have no real reason to belive this is the planet that was seen from the other rift, or that any of the rifts are even on the same planet in the other universe and this planet might not have ANY land at all).

As for soul shenanigans, it gets even worse. Say V goes over there and dies. What if the afterlife on that side is simply akin to a soul gem? Because there aren't any gods to preside over an afterlife, you just wander around in a grey void, with essentially just your thoughts. Possibly the gods created an after life system but abandoned it when they abandoned that world, and so you're essentially alone in an abandoned theme park for all eternity. So V now has to spend all eternity cut off from essentially everything, and doesn't get release from the mental anguish of not only familicide and etc. but ALSO adds abandoning the rest of the Order and has no way of knowing if they survived or succeded or what happened (and the moral quandry of disobeying Roy's orders, which in the face of the other two is kinda small, but still).

Okay so yeah, it's likely that the planet on the other side has a breathable atmosphere, and yeah it's likely that the planet on the other side of this rift is the one we saw from space which means reasonable chance of land nearish. So? That doesn't make it more likely that this other plane has magic, or even if it does, what are the chances magic works the same way? This is certainly a separate creation, and so there's no telling what is on the other side of that rift, there's no knowing it's properties, and we have no reason to assume the rift is a two way door ESPECIALLY because the only people who may have fallen in/got pulled in/got their soul pulled in, NEVER came back. It's possible that Soon's wife wasn't unmade, and simply got trapped on the other side and since it's 'out of service area' as far as the gods are concerned, they didn't have access to her soul to place it in the appropriate afterlife, nor could it return.

Finally: It doesn't fit. This is it. This is essentially the endgame. Redcloack and Xykon are already at the last gate. The Order doesn't have time to go exploring. It'd be a cool story line if they were trapped over there and V basically had to relearn the wierd magic system (assuming there is one), and then they came back with powerlevel +1 from their adventures, but it just doesn't work at this point. They don't have time to do that. They HAVE to move to the final gate, and now. The last fight might see them pulled/tackling Xykon/diving through the rift, and that might be another story line. But right now? They don't have time, and it's not dramatic for them to putz around for another few weeks exploring the rift-verse. Of course if it DOES happen that they go through the rift clearly Rich will make it work: time works differently there, or Xykon was delayed by the defenses of the last gate, or they get back to a 'kingdom of darkness' where X and RC have won, or what have you. But narratively? I don't see it. Xykon teleporting off and MitD 'saving the day' but putting O-Chul in harms way isn't something that waits. MitD is going to have to choose a side when O-Chul is facing off against Redcloak and Xykon, and that's likely going to happen soon. The Order will get there as those events are unfolding or just afterwards as Xykon and RC are doing the ritual. The rift sequence doesn't really have time to be done justice. If they were in a situation that forced them into a rift while Xykon was searching for his phylactery it'd fit. But right now the story is moving on. Tarquin is more likely to die here than the Order is to jump through the rift. He's trying to force a 'save Haleys father' sidequest AND a 'recruit new party' sidequest this late in the game. Those two need to be wrapped up immediately especially because if they escape into the rift Haley is basically abandoning her father. The only way to wrap those up here and now is for Tarquin to die. Now I could certainly be wrong about all of this, as it IS Rich's story not my own. But there's just too many reasons for it to not happen for me to buy it, the chief one is Tarquin won't LET them escape at least not with Elan in tow. I really just don't understand why people want it so badly. Maybe it's because it would delay the final gate fight?

Regards,
JAS

[Benthesquid]

I think, regardless of V's own assessment of the Rift, she is unlikely to decide to disobey Roy so directly at this moment, for the simple reason that he is at something of a nadir in terms of confidence in his own decision making.

[veti]

Regardless of what V finds there, those rounds she spends in there are rounds that she's not helping the party. And even if she does find something noteworthy, they STILL have to go get Xykon and prevent him from controlling the gates immediately after this encounter. She's got nothing to gain, but a lot to lose.

"Nothing to gain"? The party's survival is quite a lot to gain, in my opinion.

Let's look at the reasons why Roy says he doesn't want to go through the rift:

Miles of open water and heavy armour. The simplest answer to that would be "the rift is on a beach", but there are other possible solutions, e.g. "the water is only 2' deep" or "it's not really water". V could resolve that in 2 rounds.
Run out of ocean-themed jokes. #1 would also resolve this.
Soul-eating snarl. This is the biggie, but it would be resolved the moment V goes through.


Now let's look at why the Order can't escape their present predicament:

"I retain one additional Fly spell to cast, but there are six of us. The encumbrance would make pursuit effortless, even on foot."
Look at Roy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0920.html) in the last panel of Row 3: "Shojo said that the Snarl destroys souls. If there's even a chance that's true... no, we can't take the risk."

Note the hesitation there (...). Roy isn't dismissing the plan out of hand. He thinks it's worth considering, but for the soul-eating Snarl thingy. All V has to do is dart through long enough to check that it is, in fact, survivable, and the party is saved.

And once again, consider the alternatives:

Roy, Belkar and Durkon die.
Roy, Belkar, Durkon, Vaarsuvius, Blackwing and Mr Scruffy die.

... Really, I'm not seeing where you get this "nothing to gain" side of the equation.


Hi. I've been lurking, but this has been bugging me and I think I'm gonna use my one cast of Summon Wall of Text now.

That's quite a wall of text for your first summoning, congratulations. You'll excuse me if I just pick the occasional brick here and there. Some of your points are addressed above, but you do raise some new ones.


He isn't going to let him escape through the rift, and it's clear he's maneuvered to cut him off from the rift already.

Not true. The Rift is at the bottom of the crater, and so is the Order. Tarquin is still on the edge of the crater.


Either way, theres a good chance that there may be absolutely no magic in that 'plane' (read: Durkon is just a corpse, V is effectively a commoner, their equipment is just masterwork, and they have no reliable means of coming back if the rift is 5 feet above the water).

That's - a possibility, but it's pure speculation. There's no real reason to believe it. (Why should it be significant that no-one has Plane Shifted to a world that nobody, until now, so much as suspected the existence of?)


That's disregarding the more pressing concerns that the rift right there may be the ONLY rift on that planet (which means Tarquin could easily gate camp them anyways), the atmosphere may not be breathable,

More speculation, even more groundless than the previous. And why would Tarquin gate camp them? He has an empire to run, and he just lost his most reliable henchman.

As for "the atmosphere may not be breathable" - in this multiverse, the Semi-Elemental Plane of Ranch Dressing has a breathable atmosphere. I think that's another thing V would be willing to take a chance on.


As for soul shenanigans, it gets even worse.

Well, yes. That's why it's risky. But from V's point of view, it's hardly more risky than staying put.

Remember, "packing up and going home for tea and crumpets" is not an option. The available options that don't involve going through the rift are "turning invisible and flitting out, abandoning her friends", or "dying, right here and now, with whatever that implies for V's soul".


Finally: It doesn't fit. This is it. This is essentially the endgame. Redcloack and Xykon are already at the last gate. The Order doesn't have time to go exploring. It'd be a cool story line if they were trapped over there and V basically had to relearn the wierd magic system (assuming there is one), and then they came back with powerlevel +1 from their adventures, but it just doesn't work at this point. They don't have time to do that.

That's based on this whole "new magic system" idea of yours, which is - once again - complete and unfounded speculation on your part.

And even if our heroes stay where they are and somehow miraculously survive, they're still (however many weeks' journey it is) from Kraagor's Gate. They "don't have time" for that, either. So nothing to lose there.

... OK, I'm done here. We'll find out in a few strips anyway. Suffice to say, I really haven't seen anything yet that looks like a substantive objection to the idea.

[marq]

Did he have to say it?

Redcloak didn't do it. He could have. There were no jedi mind tricks used, he simply decided it wasn't going to work.

I interpret it to be that Redcloak is kind of a coward.

[orrion]

Why would bringing Elan and Haley into the WoF be a TPK? This battle is one that's guaranteed to not be a TPK, given Tarquin's unwillingness to kill Elan and Haley.

V alone has nothing to gain by entering the rift.

- If she goes in, and she doesn't get eaten by the snarl, she just abandoned three of her friends (and her love interest, Belkar, most of all) to something that may be a certain death. Using her magic to save HER behind alone before was one of the things that led V to go crazy in the first place. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0623.html) Fleeing to the rift alone would be a huge backwards step in her character development.

- If she goes in, and her soul is eaten by the Snarl, she can't atone anymore for the evil she's done, which seems to be her intent since she realized the magnitude of her actions, AND she just abandoned her friends to what may be a certain death. Also, I'm led to believe not existing blows.

Wait, did you just call Belkar V's love interest? lol

Ok, laughter aside, why would swooping into the rift be abandoning everyone? V could just fly back out if the Snarl doesn't take action.

[zimmerwald1915]

Wait, did you just call Belkar V's love interest? lol

Ok, laughter aside, why would swooping into the rift be abandoning everyone? V could just fly back out if the Snarl doesn't take action.
There's some speculation going around that the Rift itself undoes souls, whether there's a Snarl behind it or not.

[Cerussite]

"Nothing to gain"? The party's survival is quite a lot to gain, in my opinion.

Let's look at the reasons why Roy says he doesn't want to go through the rift:

Miles of open water and heavy armour. The simplest answer to that would be "the rift is on a beach", but there are other possible solutions, e.g. "the water is only 2' deep" or "it's not really water". V could resolve that in 2 rounds.
Run out of ocean-themed jokes. #1 would also resolve this.
Soul-eating snarl. This is the biggie, but it would be resolved the moment V goes through.


Now let's look at why the Order can't escape their present predicament:

"I retain one additional Fly spell to cast, but there are six of us. The encumbrance would make pursuit effortless, even on foot."
Look at Roy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0920.html) in the last panel of Row 3: "Shojo said that the Snarl destroys souls. If there's even a chance that's true... no, we can't take the risk."

Note the hesitation there (...). Roy isn't dismissing the plan out of hand. He thinks it's worth considering, but for the soul-eating Snarl thingy. All V has to do is dart through long enough to check that it is, in fact, survivable, and the party is saved.

And once again, consider the alternatives:

Roy, Belkar and Durkon die.
Roy, Belkar, Durkon, Vaarsuvius, Blackwing and Mr Scruffy die.

... Really, I'm not seeing where you get this "nothing to gain" side of the equation.


With V, they stand a very good chance of winning their current bout. Now, consider, for a second, that regardless of how this battle ends, the Order still needs to stop Team Evil from controlling Kraagor's Gate, and FAST.

If they decide to go into the rift, they need to get out of it as fast as possible to meet Xykon at Kraagor's Gate:

Assuming that the Gates prevent passage through the rifts (which seems like their purpose), they can't get out of the Rift-World through Kraagor's gate (since it's still standing, and Xykon isn't going to destroy it), so their only option to get out of the Rift-World is either to get through Lirian's Gate (since Azure City's rift is strategically too well-defended) or to get out through the same place they went in through.

If they decide to get out through a different rift: That's not even feasible considering the tactical considerations of finding a way out of a place that you have no cartographical information for. They could be lost for years in there without finding Lirian's Rift (*smirk*).

If they decide to stall Tarquin: Hiding in the Rift-World and trying to wait Team Tarquin out would mean one of two things:
- Tarquin's team follows through into the Rift-World.
- Tarquin's team waits outside the Rift-World for as long as it takes to see that they aren't coming back. If he does that, for the time he's waiting, Xykon is advancing in Kraagor's Tomb, and getting ever closer to the Gate.
- Tarquin figures: "No one could survive that", despite the Main Character of his story (Elan) having just jumped in there, and leaves immediately.

The Order has a much better chance of winning this, by resting for spells and wind walking straight for Kraagor's Gate than by taking a huge gamble that requires the snarl not caring about eating them and Tarquin not being wrong-genre-savy.

[JustAnotherSoul]

@Veti
The main thing to get from my post essentially was that regardless of whether they stand and fight or move towards the gate, they have to fight an army and Team Tarquin, then they have no reason to risk going through it. They COULD just make a break for it, but Tarquin wouldn't allow them to escape like that. He wants the rest of Elans party dead so Elan can be the hero. That doesn't work if the party goes through the rift. The other stuff was just speculation, but represent reasons to think twice about it if they were in a position where they had to enter it.

Regards,
JAS

[veti]

With V, they stand a very good chance of winning their current bout. Now, consider, for a second, that regardless of how this battle ends, the Order still needs to stop Team Evil from controlling Kraagor's Gate, and FAST.

They stand a good chance of winning a battle against a regiment of mooks, yes.

They don't, however, stand any reasonable chance of winning a battle against a regiment of mooks and then taking on Tarquin and his two henchdudes, to say nothing of any other help he may have on the way.

If Tarquin thought that outcome was on the cards, he'd never have attacked - and I trust his judgment on that. He's fought the Order himself, remember, and damn' near solo'd the whole party. With Whatsername and Thingy at his back, and Durkon and V both low on spells - he'd cream them.

I'm not saying "heading into the rift" is an optimal strategy, nor is it the best or shortest way to get from where they are to Kraagor's Gate. I'm saying that it's one of only two realistic chances of survival. (The other being: change Tarquin's mind, and I don't see any sign that's going to happen.)

[Forikroder]

They stand a good chance of winning a battle against a regiment of mooks, yes.

They don't, however, stand any reasonable chance of winning a battle against a regiment of mooks and then taking on Tarquin and his two henchdudes, to say nothing of any other help he may have on the way.

If Tarquin thought that outcome was on the cards, he'd never have attacked - and I trust his judgment on that. He's fought the Order himself, remember, and damn' near solo'd the whole party. With Whatsername and Thingy at his back, and Durkon and V both low on spells - he'd cream them.

I'm not saying "heading into the rift" is an optimal strategy, nor is it the best or shortest way to get from where they are to Kraagor's Gate. I'm saying that it's one of only two realistic chances of survival. (The other being: change Tarquin's mind, and I don't see any sign that's going to happen.)

actually if the choice is between getting unmade or losing a level id pick losing a level

there are a few ways they could get out assuming there willing to die and get rezzed later on

[orrion]

There's some speculation going around that the Rift itself undoes souls, whether there's a Snarl behind it or not.

Sure, but V doesn't know that and it's just speculation on our part. Which means you can't say with certainty that V would be abandoning anybody.