Arcane Swordsage Fix

[Ruethgar]

Does anyone know a good fix for the Arcane Swordsage that is already tested/widely approved and considered balanced?

Edit: I made one where I limited the spells to fire only(and transmutation/abjuration/evocation only) and required one desert wind per spell level. It worked well with the theme of the character and the power wasn't that high, but that cuts out a lot of other build types and I don't really know that there are descriptors/sub-schools that could adequately define the other disciplines.

[Lightlawbliss]

I think that is the first time I have seen someone use "arcane swordsage" and "balanced" in the same sentence, with a serious tone and not using "not" or a variation there of.

[Emperor Tippy]

Bar them from taking any spells with an XP component, a material component worth more than 1 GP, or a focus component worth more than 1 GP.

There are still ways to break it but doing that should work just fine.

It also makes the Arcane Swordsage a decent Wizard or Sorcerer replacement in a lower magic game.

[Big Fau]

Bar them from taking any spells with an XP component, a material component worth more than 1 GP, or a focus component worth more than 1 GP.

There are still ways to break it but doing that should work just fine.

It also makes the Arcane Swordsage a decent Wizard or Sorcerer replacement in a lower magic game.

Adding to this: Limit it to 4th level or lower Sor/Wiz spells with a progression similar to a Paladin's spell progression, assuming you want it to be more in line with other Martial Adepts.

[Sith_Happens]

I don't think you can really say that Arcane Swordsage is "broken" when it's not really an official variant in the first place. It's in the "if you want to, you could houserule this" section (so is Unarmed Swordsage, for that matter, but at least that one's a simple feature swap).

[Emperor Tippy]

Adding to this: Limit it to 4th level or lower Sor/Wiz spells with a progression similar to a Paladin's spell progression, assuming you want it to be more in line with other Martial Adepts.

Meh, pretty much makes it totally worthless.

They already have a pretty anemic list of spells/maneuvers and most of the more powerful ones are removed (as they have foci, expensive material components, or XP components).

A level 20 Swordsage knows 25 maneuvers (and 6 stances).
A level 10 knows 15.

A level 20 Sorcerer knows 43 spells.
A level 10 Sorcerer knows 23 spells.

A level 20 Wizard who scribes no spells beyond his level up spells knows 40 non level 0 spells.
A level 10 wizard knows 20.

Arcane Swordsage is broken because it lets you dump all of the expensive components of powerful spells and use those powerful spells constantly with no cost.

Remove the spells with expensive components/foci and the Swordsage remains pretty much a Tier 3 class (with exactly the right spell selection it might hit tier 2, but individual problem spells that would otherwise be included can be readily excluded by the DM).

[Ruethgar]

One of my biggest concerns is Time Stop. Although I think capping the level at 4 is a bit harsh, I don't think bard progression to 6th would be that bad in addition to the removal of costly spells.

[Tvtyrant]

Give them the Bardic progression and spell list, and then have strikes and boosts just work as spells while stances are Warlock Invocations? Only thing I can think of.

[Emperor Tippy]

One of my biggest concerns is Time Stop. Although I think capping the level at 4 is a bit harsh, I don't think bard progression to 6th would be that bad in addition to the removal of costly spells.

Why? That and Celerity actually really fit the theme of the Swordsage and make for a great ninja.

Foresight+Celerity should be something that more than just the casters can do.

Besides, Psions can do extra rounds as early as level 1 and Factotums have Cunning Surge, which at level 17 is "I've already won before any of you can act because I'm just that badass and threw out seventeen standard actions before you get to act at all".

It's level 17, Time Stop is powerful on a caster because it allows them to throw out all kinds of battle field control magic or to buff themselves to high heaven. Neither is a major concern with a swordsage.

The one real concern is Time Stop combined with Adaptive Style to constantly refresh maneuvers. But even then, this is level 17+. It's not like its that broken. Honestly its a rather decent capstone.

[Just to Browse]

A swordsage fix needs to rewrite the list because some spells go to crap if you can't switch them out, even if they're at-will (any sort of healing) and some spells are awesome at-will even with +1 or +2 levels (swift invisibility, hella polymorph). Banning expensive material components solves some problems but not nearly enough to make the class anywhere near balanced.

You'd also need rules governing extra maneuvers versus spells, what stat they use, how multiclassing and prestige classing works... This is a full-on homebrew project.

And yeh, time stop isn't a big deal because that's level 17 and whoever wins initiative wins D&D.

[Ruethgar]

How many healing Abjuration/Transmutation/Evocation spells are there that it would really be much of a problem? Perhaps limiting the duration of spell to while you have it readied(if expended) so you can't just switch out the buff spells after use for blasty/battle field control spells.

All Swordsage spells become supernatural maneuvers and interact with spells as other (Su) abilities. Eligibility of spell level access is determined by Swordsage and initiator PrC class levels instead of initiator level. As maneuvers, the spells function off of your initiator level instead of caster level. The ability to select spells as maneuvers is a Swordsage class feature and thus only a Swordsage may take Martial Study for spells. As the spells are (Su) and are maneuvers they do not count as spells and are not advanced by spellcasting PrCs. They use Wisdom as their primary casting stat.

That sound good?

[StreamOfTheSky]

I've tried to make a balanced Arcane Swordsage before. I do think it's possible. I don't think you have to be so draconian as to limit them to only fire spells or such. I do think they absolutely MUST have a strict spell list, like a Warmage does, without the ability to dumpster dive for spells to add to it. Then you just need to go through the effort of deciding what spells belong there and which don't. DM can always choose to add more from other sources, since this is never going to be an "official" write-u[, you don't need to worry about being completely comprehensive and cover spells from every single splat book.

General guidelines for spells that belong:
- None with expensive components. Expensive focus spells may or may not be ok.
- Generally, should be pulling from Abjuration, Evocation, Necromancy, and Transmutation. With some Conjuration options for limited teleporting (the short-range battlefield-scale teleports, not...actual Teleport or even Dim Door) and maybe healing. Evocation should probably be the biggest source of spells.
- Offensive melee touch spells and personal range buffs should make up half or more of the spell list, and then ranged blasting and the other effects.
- Choices for stances (I assume they'd still get that) should be spells that last for 10 min/level or longer. Or alternatively, are about +4 spell levels higher than normal.
- If you no longer have a maneuver readied (such as by using Adaptive Style to quickly change them), any enduring benefit of that maneuver from the last time you used it should immediately end. Obviously, ditto for losing any benefit from a spell when you change stances.

I would make everything Supernatural, since maneuvers and stances are supposed to al be Su or Ex.

The end result would obviously be better than normal Swordsage, but ideally somewhere in the tier 2 range, with a limited set of very powerful options to spam.

EDIT: I'd give them "wizard progression" -- max spell level is 1/2 class level + 1, starting at level 1 and capping at 9th level. Just as maneuvers currently work. Spell power has little to do with levels; Alter Self, Polymorph, Enervation, and Glitterdust are all on the low end but better than MANY high level spells. It really does come down to strongly restricting the specific spells they can get, not the spell levels. Of course, no one likes to admit that because doing it the latter way is a lot more work than the former way.

[hiryuu]

I've been using Codex of Spellshaping for a while now, and it tends to work out really well.

[Douglas]

Here's my attempt at it. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187632)

[Manly Man]

Odd thought, and kinda partly related: how would a Swordsage translate if it was done with psionic powers instead of arcane spells?