Pathfinder: 'Good' Anti-Paladin?

[Xuldarinar]

Perhaps its just the fact I like the idea of having characters that contradict themselves in someway, but sitting around I was looking at the pathfinder anti-paladin and noticed something interesting about their code of conduct.


Code of Conduct: An anti paladin must be of chaotic evil alignment and loses all class features except proficiencies if he willingly and altruistically commits good acts. This does not mean that an antipaladin cannot take action someone else might qualify as good, only that such actions must always be in service of his own dark ends. An anti paladin's code requires that he place his own interests and desires above all else, as well as impose tyranny, take advantage whenever possible, and punish the good and just, provided that such actions don't interfere with his goals.

Given the specifics of their code of conduct, I cannot help but wonder how far one could push it. What all could an anti-paladin get away with within their code of conduct? Can they do all the good they want, as long as they benefit from it and their alignment can be maintained as evil?

As a secondary question: What all are the archetypes that an anti-paladin can qualify for? Im familiar with the anti-paladin specific Knight of the Sepulcher, but are there any others (for any paladin that an anti-paladin could qualify for, or anti-paladin specific)?

[Blisstake]

My friend played an anti-paladin that took the code very seriously in a hilarious matter.

When handing a healing potion to a party member, she would say "Oh, how clumsy of me. This healing potion slipped out of my hands right into your mouth."

[Xuldarinar]

My friend played an anti-paladin that took the code very seriously in a hilarious matter.

When handing a healing potion to a party member, she would say "Oh, how clumsy of me. This healing potion slipped out of my hands right into your mouth."

While personally i'd emphasize the word altruistically, that is an interesting and.. admittedly quite funny approach.

[Just to Browse]

I could see an anti-paladin justifying being nice to a party for years, with the overarching goal of getting their trust and allegiance so he can request them to do one world-dismembering quest with him.

It could take years and years of planning and the campaign could even end before it happens.

[Xuldarinar]

I just thought of an even longer spanning idea.

An anti-paladin who regularly commits good deeds because he seeks to create doubt, to undermine beliefs and possibly create opportunities for other beings in the service of evil or an evil being. Imagine, an apparent paragon of good that openly serves a demon (or similar being). All his activities benefiting him in some form, be it in the short term or long term.

[Psyren]

I could see an anti-paladin justifying being nice to a party for years, with the overarching goal of getting their trust and allegiance so he can request them to do one world-dismembering quest with him.

It could take years and years of planning and the campaign could even end before it happens.

Heck, he could even change his mind after the BBEG is dead, "fall," and live out the rest of his days in peace as an Ex-Antipaladin with no real consequences because there's nothing left to fight. (And even without his powers, he could kick the asses of any random soldiers, mercs or countryfolk who try to pick a bone with him in his retirement.)

[ArcturusV]

Hmm. It is just me that think that code is kinda weird... because it demand Chaotic Evil... but then asks for Tyranny which is typically Lawful Evil domain, compared to despotism being more in the Chaotic Evil wheelhouse? Kinda set up to autofall yourself?

[Souju]

I just thought of an even longer spanning idea.

An anti-paladin who regularly commits good deeds because he seeks to create doubt, to undermine beliefs and possibly create opportunities for other beings in the service of evil or an evil being. Imagine, an apparent paragon of good that openly serves a demon (or similar being). All his activities benefiting him in some form, be it in the short term or long term.

This is actually an idea I had for a character's backstory: She was in service to an anti-paladin that passed herself off as a heroic paladin (it IS possible to alter your aura to appear Good, and realistically no one's going to look twice at the radiant knights who just saved them)
On the surface, they were a typical adventuring party and routinely saved the day...
...while at the same time becoming the CAUSES for a lot of the disasters. What better way to serve your own ends than to summon a demon and sic it on an unsuspecting town, then swoop in and slay it, earning the respect and admiration of the town?
They continually lied and put up this facade, recruiting followers that were "in" on it, until they engaged in the biggest gambit of all...
"Martyring" herself and relying on the faith of the deceived followers to fuel a rampage through the Abyss, eventually becoming a Nascent Demon Lord.
This was the only campaign i made use of the custom magic item rules (making a pendant that hid my character's alignment from divinations)

[Xuldarinar]

-Snip-

Wow. That sounds like a great character.

[Maginomicon]

While not directly related to the PF Anti-Paladin, It would be useful to bring up the paladin variants in 3.5 as described in my Real Alignments Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=283341).



Codes of Conduct

The following is a collection of the various paladin-like codes of conduct (for paladins and paladin variants). The red words in this subsection indicate what actually causes the character to "fall". Some would imply that violating any part of their code of conduct causes them to fall, but believing so is untenable in-practice. It's much more reasonable that violating the lesser aspects of their code of conduct causes mostly social repercussions if discovered (such as temporarily being forbidden access to certain... church resources until mundane restitution is made).

Potentially-Enlightening External Resources: No More Overzealous Paladins (http://www.paperspencils.com/2011/12/07/no-more-overzealous-paladins/)
A Paladin’s Fall (http://www.paperspencils.com/2012/03/12/a-paladins-fall/)
The Paladin’s Oath, and GM Clarity (http://www.paperspencils.com/2012/03/14/the-paladins-oath-and-gm-clarity/)


Orthodox Codes of ConductPaladins [of Honor] (SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/paladin.htm); Lawful Good a.k.a. “Path of Integrity”) lose all class abilities if they ever willingly commit an evil act. She respects legitimate authority, acts with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), helps those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punishes those who harm or threaten innocents.

Paladins of Freedom (SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#paladinVariantsFreedom SlaughterAndTyranny); Chaotic Good a.k.a. “Path of Liberty”) lose all class abilities if they ever willingly commit an evil act. He respects individual liberty, helps those in need (provided they do not use the help for lawful or evil ends), and punishes those who threaten or curtail personal liberty.

Paladins of Tyranny (SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#paladinVariantsFreedom SlaughterAndTyranny); Lawful Evil a.k.a. “Path of Ascendency”) lose all class abilities if they ever willingly commit a good act. He respects authority figures as long as they have the strength to rule over the weak, acts with discipline (not engaging in random slaughter, keeping firm control over those beneath his station, and so forth), helps only those who help him maintain or improve his status, and punishes those who challenge authority (unless, of course, such challengers prove more worthy to hold that authority).

Paladins of Slaughter (SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#paladinVariantsFreedom SlaughterAndTyranny); Chaotic Evil a.k.a. “Path of Luxury”) loses all class abilities if they ever willingly commit a good act. She disrespects all authority figures who have not proven their physical superiority to her, refuses help to those in need, and sows destruction and death at all opportunities.Unorthodox Codes of ConductSentinels (Dragon Magazine #310 page 50; Neutral Good a.k.a. “Path of Mercy”) lose all class abilities if they ever willingly commit an evil act. Sentinels are most at home in the wilderness of the Material Plane. He only journeys into cities when absolutely necessary, and he avoids travel to other planes except in the most dire need, since his vows require him to battle evil on his home plane. These vows call for him to protect the natural order of the Material Plane from becoming influenced or tainted by the forces of the evil Outer Planes. Additionally, the sentinel is honor-bound to provide assistance to any non-outsider who becomes lost or endangered while in the wilderness, as long as the victim in need honors the sanctity of the wilderness.

Avengers (Dragon Magazine #310 page 49; Chaotic Good a.k.a. “Path of Liberty”) lose all class abilities if they ever willingly commit an evil act or willingly allies with a lawful government or affiliated agency. While the avenger’s life is based around achieving vengeance and retribution for the oppressed and downtrodden, she must temper this vengeance appropriately. Killing should be the last resort of the avenger when a more appropriate and less destructive form of vengeance will do, and even then, slaying an oppressor should be reserved only for the most evil villains. Avengers must aid and assist anyone who asks for help (within reason) and must not join any organized association, order, or group. She may attend the services of her church but is encouraged to worship in private.

Anarchs (Dragon Magazine #310 page 47; Chaotic Neutral a.k.a. “Path of Autonomy”) lose all class abilities if they ever willingly commit a blatantly lawful act (such as abiding by an oath, fulfilling a contract, or joining an organization such as a brotherhood or fellowship). Aside from this, an anarch’s code is little more than a lack of a code. As long as he continues to cause chaos and foment disrespect for law in others, his status as an anarch is secure. (NOTE: An adventuring party is hardly an organization on the level of a "brotherhood" or "fellowship", despite what Tolkien would have you believe. That said, as soon as the party would become some kind of official entity however, an anarch would leave the party.)

Anti-Paladins (Dragon Magazine #312 page 20; Chaotic Evil a.k.a. “Path of Luxury”) lose all class abilities if they ever willingly commit a good act. He must work at all times to undermine the works of civilization and good peoples, and must never offer mercy or grant quarter unless he betrays his word in the next hour. He cannot join an organization, but he can perform services for others as long as the services are for pay and ultimately lead to chaos and devastation.

Corrupters (Dragon Magazine #312 page 24; Neutral Evil a.k.a. “Path of Supremacy”) lose all class abilities if they ever willingly commit a good act or an act that exposes their faith to an opposing religion and results in their detriment. He must strive to corrupt and taint all faiths apart from his own, with a special focus on good faiths. He is allowed to make whatever vows or declarations are required in order to maintain this deception, as long as he spends at least an hour each day in private prayer to his deity. He must strive to remain hidden, although the methods by which he undermines other faiths are left to his own discretion.

Despots (Dragon Magazine #312 page 23; Lawful Evil a.k.a. “Path of Ascendency”) lose all class abilities if they ever willingly commit a chaotic act (such as breaking a vow or contract or betraying an ally). She must at all times work to expand and grow her domain, either by virtue of the Leadership feat or by strong-arming those less fortunate and powerful than herself. She is allowed to abuse her sovereignty in any way she sees fit to further her own personal strength and glory, but she must protect and defend her subjects and allies from harm from other forces. Likewise, she must not overburden her subjects so that they cannot support her.

Enforcers (Dragon Magazine #310 page 53; Lawful Neutral a.k.a. “Path of Harmony”) lose all class abilities if they ever willingly commit a chaotic act (such as breaking a vow or contract or betraying an ally). Unlike other holy warriors, enforcers are bound to the will of two beings. Their primary liege remains their divine patron, but they must also serve the will of their worldly liege. The enforcer’s patron deity and his liege’s patron deity must be the same. If an enforcer believes his liege is not acting in the best interests of his deity, he is permitted to act against his liege as long as he can expose his liege’s heresy within 24 hours. An enforcer is not allowed to accept a position of leadership that would place him in a position where he would not have a liege above him in the rank of command, except in the case of an emergency (and even then, for no more than 24 hours). The enforcer must uphold and enforce the laws of the church and land at all times, even when the laws would prevent him from fully accomplishing a desired personal goal.

Incarnates (Dragon Magazine #310 page 52; True Neutral a.k.a. “Path of Equity”) lose all class abilities if they ever willingly commit an act that endangers the natural balance of the world. The incarnate is most at home in the wilderness, but she does not take any special vows to avoid city life. She avoids travel to other planes (with the exception of the Elemental Planes to which she has an affinity) except in the most dire need. The incarnate prefers to arrive at peaceful solutions but is fully capable of using force against unwanted intrusions into this realm from beyond.

Here, we see the anti-paladin again but with a different tone.

Now, personally, I'd prefer to use Real Alignments with PF as well, as then the PF Anti-paladin becomes about selfishness, pleasure, and sensuous gratification for oneself rather than "for the evuls LOL"... but that's just me.

[grarrrg]

As a secondary question: What all are the archetypes that an anti-paladin can qualify for? Im familiar with the anti-paladin specific Knight of the Sepulcher, but are there any others (for any paladin that an anti-paladin could qualify for, or anti-paladin specific)?

Straight up by RAW? None, Anti's cannot take any Paladin Archetypes.
Now, Antipaladin's are an 'alternate' version of Paladin, which is basically a super-archetype. And the rules do say that 'alternate' classes can take any main class archetypes that they qualify for.
The issue is that just about every one of the class features has been renamed and tweaked so as to be incompatible with archetypes.

Unofficially, Antipaladin's can qualify for most, if not all, Paladin archetypes, if you have a DM willing to handwave/swap the good/evil parts around.