Adjusting CRs for small groups

[TaraSilverwind]

I'm running a game for a couple of people who are brand new to D&D. We've had a couple of games so far, and I'm about to launch them into their next adventure. The party consists of one elven bard and one half-elven fighter, and both just reached 2nd level. The module I'm planning to run them through was made for a party of four 1st level characters, and the final encounter is listed as CR 3. Do I need to adjust the CRs of the encounters up for them, or should this be about right?

I'm also concerned about the lack of a cleric in the party, but am not sure what to do about that, if anything. This adventure will take them out into the wilderness for a few days, and they won't have the luxury of coming back to town for healing until they've accomplished their mission. Any thoughts?

[Platymus Pus]

I'm running a game for a couple of people who are brand new to D&D. We've had a couple of games so far, and I'm about to launch them into their next adventure. The party consists of one elven bard and one half-elven fighter, and both just reached 2nd level. The module I'm planning to run them through was made for a party of four 1st level characters, and the final encounter is listed as CR 3. Do I need to adjust the CRs of the encounters up for them, or should this be about right?

I'm also concerned about the lack of a cleric in the party, but am not sure what to do about that, if anything. This adventure will take them out into the wilderness for a few days, and they won't have the luxury of coming back to town for healing until they've accomplished their mission. Any thoughts?
3.5 right?

A bard and a fighter.
The fighter would fight in the front being buffed by the bard usually.
Depending on equipment a CR3 encounter might not be hard on it's own with them fresh, but they won't be fresh.
Whats the monster?
Also depends on the feats the fighter grabbed as well I'd think.
So he has 3 feats.

The bard himself... gets nothing at level 2 pretty much.
He can make nice support is he had say a wand that heals I suppose.

[John Longarrow]

If the CR 3 is a single monster with nothing special (read maybe an Ogre) and the players realize how to use basic terrain to their advantage, it shouldn't be too bad.

If the CR 3 is more difficult, say a ghast, it could go really bad really quick (DC 15 fort VS sickened can be a real problem at 2nd).

Post the monster and we'll be better able to tell you if they can reasonably take it. Also let us know if the characters have anything special, including magic items/alchemical goodies.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

Maybe give out a utility item they wouldn't otherwise have access to. Something that either helps with action economy or provides some healing/buffs.

[Maginomicon]

The Solo Dungeon Generator guide in Dragon Compendium says that a one-man party should have encounters with a CR two lower than his own ECL. Take from that what you will for your party complement.

As for the no-clerics issue, I'd suggest using the Reserve Points (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/reservePoints.htm) variant and/or the Death And Dying (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/deathAndDying.htm) variant, with some (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16047709&postcount=5) adjustments (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16067521&postcount=17) made for practicality.

[TaraSilverwind]

Yep, we're playing 3.5. The end boss is a 2nd level worg with 43hp, +8 bite attack, AC 15, and the Power Attack feat. And, they'll have just finished fighting 2 of his wolf minions (CR1, 13hp each). Technically, the wolf minions are supposed to flee to the worg when they're reduced to 5hp, but I think it would be bad to have the players try to fight 3 of them at the same time, even with two of them severely weakened.

The fighter in the group has power attack and cleave. They haven't had an opportunity to level their characters up yet, so I don't know what his third feat will be. They don't have any special items yet, but that can easily be fixed before they arrive in town. The fighter has some pretty good armor though, giving him a 16 AC, and he has a greatsword (2d6 dmg).

The variant reserve points rule sounds interesting, and a wand of cure light would certainly be useful. It'd put the ability to heal into their own hands, and they'd have to learn to conserve the charges.

[johnbragg]

Yep, we're playing 3.5. The end boss is a
The variant reserve points rule sounds interesting, and a wand of cure light would certainly be useful. It'd put the ability to heal into their own hands, and they'd have to learn to conserve the charges.

If you want them to learn to conserve, a wand may not be the best answer. The wand starts at 40 or 50, but they have no way of knowing how many charges have been used. So as far as they can tell, it's unlimited until it suddenly stops working.

They kill a snake or some undead, and find the body of a cleric and his backpack has 8 healing potions.

[John Longarrow]

TaraSilverwind,

Please make sure you keep track of the TRIP that worgs get. With only two in the party that means the fight should run like this:

Fighter hits Worg. Worg has 2/3rd chance of hitting Fighter. Worg gets free trip attempt. If fighter goes down, fighter needs to stand (move action) that provokes. Prone fighter is denied dex and gives the worg a free +4 to hit with melee (and free trip attempt if it hits).

You may want to switch to another CR 3 creature that can take and dish damage but that doesn't have a good chance of killing the fighter outright.

A bugbear with a level in ranger should be a good replacement. HP should run about 22 and it would have gear the party can use (standard treasure).

[rot42]

TaraSilverwind,

Please make sure you keep track of the TRIP that worgs get. With only two in the party that means the fight should run like this:

Fighter hits Worg. Worg has 2/3rd chance of hitting Fighter. Worg gets free trip attempt. If fighter goes down, fighter needs to stand (move action) that provokes. Prone fighter is denied dex and gives the worg a free +4 to hit with melee (and free trip attempt if it hits).

You may want to switch to another CR 3 creature that can take and dish damage but that doesn't have a good chance of killing the fighter outright.

A bugbear with a level in ranger should be a good replacement. HP should run about 22 and it would have gear the party can use (standard treasure).

Prone does not deny Dex to AC - you can still dodge around on the ground; it is more difficult, but that is accounted for in the -4 AC vs. melee attacks. An attack of opportunity always occurs before the triggering action completes - the fighter will be still prone when the wolf attacks, so its ability to trip with a bite is irrelevant. It is still very easy for a pair of wolves to trip-lock a character, though, making them among the more dangerous low level combatants.

@OP: the SRD has an encounter calculator (http://www.d20srd.org/extras/d20encountercalculator/) combining several of the tables in the DMG. As several posters above have indicated, actual difficulty can vary quite a bit depending on party composition/tactics/&c. Go with what fits your game, of course, but I might replace the wolves with a half dozen or so goblin lycanthropy-cultists. This approach lets team monster become less dangerous as the fight progresses, caters to the choice to spend a feat on Cleave, and lets you drop a potion of Cure Light Wounds or two with each goblin. You can have their morale break after the first few drop after one hit, and offer your PCs the trade off between pursuing immediately without healing or waiting and facing a better prepared worg.

[TaraSilverwind]

@OP: the SRD has an encounter calculator (http://www.d20srd.org/extras/d20encountercalculator/) combining several of the tables in the DMG. As several posters above have indicated, actual difficulty can vary quite a bit depending on party composition/tactics/&c. Go with what fits your game, of course, but I might replace the wolves with a half dozen or so goblin lycanthropy-cultists. This approach lets team monster become less dangerous as the fight progresses, caters to the choice to spend a feat on Cleave, and lets you drop a potion of Cure Light Wounds or two with each goblin. You can have their morale break after the first few drop after one hit, and offer your PCs the trade off between pursuing immediately without healing or waiting and facing a better prepared worg.

That looks like a pretty neat tool. Thanks!
Thank you for all the advice everyone. I talked to one of the two players yesterday, and it looks like the party composition might be changing from what I originally planned. They haven't had the opportunity to actually level up their characters yet, but it looks like the bard at least is looking to take a level of sorcerer instead of bard. The fighter also might be looking at multiclassing, but I haven't been able to talk to that player directly yet.

I think my tentative solution right now is to either throw healing potions their way, or have an NPC cleric join them for this mission. She would be a source of information as well as healing. Probably won't be much use during a fight though.

[Psyren]

If you want them to learn to conserve, a wand may not be the best answer. The wand starts at 40 or 50, but they have no way of knowing how many charges have been used. So as far as they can tell, it's unlimited until it suddenly stops working.

Actually, Identify (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/identify.htm) does tell you how many charges an item has remaining, and it's a level 1 spell for Bards so he can buy a scroll of it.

[Scow2]

To answer the implied question in the OP:

Monster CR is designed around the idea of a four-person adventuring party, and experience rewards. I can't remember how to express all the math... but effectively, you want to increase the given CR range by 2 for every halving of the ideal darty size, and decrease the given CR by two for every doubling of it. A CR 3 encounter is effectively a CR 5 one for the party size (I think), so it should be doable... as a pretty intense fight. CR 6 (4) is where they'd have a chance of dying horribly.

[Psyren]

This guide (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1nx-o8VAjhUwh3nnfzDQT-JA5eFLnN_BZJiBitGjBMDg/edit) explains the math pretty well, and gives advice on how to scale encounters down or up for less or more than 4 players. It's designed for Pathfinder but you should be able to leverage the techniques for 3.5 as well.

[johnbragg]

This guide (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1nx-o8VAjhUwh3nnfzDQT-JA5eFLnN_BZJiBitGjBMDg/edit) explains the math pretty well, and gives advice on how to scale encounters down or up for less or more than 4 players. It's designed for Pathfinder but you should be able to leverage the techniques for 3.5 as well.

Is it a bad system to "play it by ear", and semi-arbitrarily say that 10 average encounters should level the party (if they're all at the same level)? And then after the fact, make judgement calls--the players blew through Encounter #2 without a scratch, maybe half-XP. Encounter #3 nearly ended in a total-party-kill, double-XP.

That basically makes experience a factor of how often and how closely you've looked death in the face and walked away.

[johnbragg]

Actually, Identify (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/identify.htm) does tell you how many charges an item has remaining, and it's a level 1 spell for Bards so he can buy a scroll of it.

Is it worth it to spend 125 gp (25 x SL1 x CL1 + 100gp pearl) to get the info on a wand that costs 750 gp brand new?

[Psyren]

Is it worth it to spend 125 gp (25 x SL1 x CL1 + 100gp pearl) to get the info on a wand that costs 750 gp brand new?

If it saves you shelling out another 750 when you don't need to the answer is obviously yes.


Is it a bad system to "play it by ear", and semi-arbitrarily say that 10 average encounters should level the party (if they're all at the same level)? And then after the fact, make judgement calls--the players blew through Encounter #2 without a scratch, maybe half-XP. Encounter #3 nearly ended in a total-party-kill, double-XP.

That basically makes experience a factor of how often and how closely you've looked death in the face and walked away.

It's not bad at all and I've seen plenty of DMs do that. Pathfinder makes this pretty easy since XP isn't used as a resource for anything , so there's no need to track it - you can simply tell the players "okay, you level up now" without having to do any calculations.

But XP does help you design encounters - note the use of the "XP budget" as a balancing factor in the guide.

[johnbragg]

If a 126 gp scroll of identify saves you shelling out another 750 when you don't need to the answer is obviously yes.

I'm thinking too much like my veteran characters, so much so that I forget the players don't HAVE 750 gp lying around.


It's not bad at all and I've seen plenty of DMs do that. Pathfinder makes this pretty easy since XP isn't used as a resource for anything , so there's no need to track it - you can simply tell the players "okay, you level up now" without having to do any calculations.

But XP does help you design encounters - note the use of the "XP budget" as a balancing factor in the guide.

Good points. I'm kind of influenced by what I'm trying now, with too-young players running BECMI stuff that I've partially upgraded to 3.x mechanics. The players aren't motivated much by treasure--they want to kill monsters. I don't want to get into the endless loop of trade-treasure-for-magic, except maybe for consumables like wands and potions. So the Basic XP numbers don't help me (too low, since they count on you leveling through treasure), and I don't trust modern CR ratings for my group, because they're prone to, er, sub-optimal tactics, like scaring a rat away with a loud bell-when you're a thief in a dungeon.

[TaraSilverwind]

To answer the implied question in the OP:

Monster CR is designed around the idea of a four-person adventuring party, and experience rewards. I can't remember how to express all the math... but effectively, you want to increase the given CR range by 2 for every halving of the ideal darty size, and decrease the given CR by two for every doubling of it. A CR 3 encounter is effectively a CR 5 one for the party size (I think), so it should be doable... as a pretty intense fight. CR 6 (4) is where they'd have a chance of dying horribly.

That's really helpful, thank you!


This guide explains the math pretty well, and gives advice on how to scale encounters down or up for less or more than 4 players. It's designed for Pathfinder but you should be able to leverage the techniques for 3.5 as well.

Thanks Psyren. There's a lot of really great stuff in that guide that I can use. The idea of Action Economy was especially interesting.