Help Making a Mul Runepriest/Fighter Hybrid Work

[Tokuhara]

Hey y'all. A friend of mine is starting a 4e game (beginning at 1) and I decided to peruse the class list. I knew from the start that I wanted Mul (I played Dark Sun in 3.5, so seeing Mul get some love, I knew it'd be my PC), so I decided to test drive Hybrids.

I definitely like the mental image of the Battlemind/Warlord (Guy in heavy armor leading from the front) and want to see if this can be done effectively. I'm not looking for a pure Defender or Leader, but kind of a happy medium.

So folks, how can this be done?

Having taken a gander at the requests of the playground, I've decided Runepriest/Fighter is a more sound hybrid, running heavy on Str/Con with Wis as a backfill and Dexterity dumped like a body in a ditch.

I'm using a Dual-Specialist array, looking at using both 16's for Str/Con, my 12 in Wisdom, my 11's for Int and Cha, and Dex getting the 8, leaving me with 18/8/18/11/12/11 for my spread (not bad really)

Now, can someone help me get the rest of the way without compromising my overall potential?

[Tegu8788]

As someone that is currently using a Battlemind|Warlock, I can tell you for certain that it doesn't make for a good Defender. We are level 5 and I don't know if I've gotten to use my mark punishment once, with a good DM. If this is your first game, I'd avoid a hybrid if possible.

[tcrudisi]

The problem with hybrids are that they aren't 50% of each role. You want to be a partial leader and partial defender? Then look at a class which can do both on its own. Something like a Paladin.

A Battlemind is 100% defender.
A Warlord is 100% leader.
A hybrid Battlemind is 33% defender, 33% leader, and 33% "what the heck am I trying to do?"

In other words: it'll fall completely flat.

Just realize that it won't be even moderately effective at either job. You are trying to combine two classes with almost no synergy (stat-wise, job-wise, power-wise, and horrible defenses since their primary stats both go into Fortitude) and I can't honestly see a way to make this even half as decent as either a full-class Warlord or a full-class Battlemind.

But - you've now been warned. What do you need to keep in mind to make this work?

Your defenses are going to be atrocious. With Str and Con being your primary stats, you won't have many points to put toward your Ref or Will defense. As a front-liner, this is a recipe for disaster. Yeah, you'll definitely be picking up Hybrid Talent at level 1 just so you can grab Battlemind armor proficiencies. Otherwise your AC will be pretty pathetic, too, for a character that wants to be a part-time defender.

Battleminds don't really become competitive as defenders until they get Lightning Rush at level 7. Keep in mind that no matter how good your level 7 encounter powers are for Warlord, you absolutely, positively want Lightning Rush if you are going to have any hope of being a part-time defender. You are still going to struggle to utilize it properly with your lack of power points, but at least this way you'll be able to defend once or twice an encounter.

Having said that, you have one advantage over normal battleminds: A high Str score. This means that you can actually do things like make an Opportunity Attack.

As for the Warlord side, the Battlemind has nothing to offer it. It's very hard to give advise on just the Warlord side because I have no idea what classes your party members are playing and their powers are wildly divergent based on that.

May I ask what it is that you are really trying to accomplish? It feels like you are setting yourself up for failure. How would you describe your 4e experience: first-time, some, experienced, or pro? If you wouldn't describe yourself as experienced or pro, I'd strongly, strongly recommend not going hybrid. If you are a first-timer to 4e, then I just want to point out that the hybrid rules are a trap option even for many experienced and pro 4e players. I can count on one hand the number of builds which are made better by hybriding and about 2 hands the number of builds which don't lose any power by becoming a hybrid. The other 5,000+ builds are made weaker (oftentimes substantially so) by going hybrid.

What level are you playing at? There are some Runepriest and Cleric builds which can secondary defend pretty darn well, depending on the level. Warlord can be acceptable enough, but if this is a matter of "we don't have anyone to play the Leader or the Defender" then my best advise is to pick a Leader and go with it. If you've never played a Leader before, believe me, healing is not their top focus and doesn't detract from playing the classes at all. A lot of new players shy away from leaders because of their experience with past "healers" in previous editions of D&D. This is nothing alike. Healing someone doesn't prevent you from doing anything else; you can still move and attack in the same turn that you heal someone. The leader's focus is on improving their allies and keeping the party running at peak efficiency.

The Warlords AC is mediocre. But you will have a high Fort and Ref and have a much easier time improving all your defenses.

The Battleminds AC is great. They have a high Fort and Will as well.

Combine the two and you get mediocre AC and a high Fort. Your Ref and Will defenses will be in the tank. Even worse: unless you gimp your ability to make attacks (and therefore REALLY detract from your ability to both lead and defend), then you'll have very few options to improve those defenses (beyond AC which can be fixed with a feat ... and then lose out on pretty much all the nice abilities for Warlord and Battlemind).

I dunno. It's just ... as I write this, I'm really struggling to find a way to make this work. I'm also without my character builder right now which makes looking at the base chassis impossible, but in my mind, I can't figure out how to bring this combination up to a basic level.

[ghost_warlock]

Honestly, unless you go mostly lazylord with your warlord half, I think you're going to have major issues with Multiple Ability Dependency.

Warlord uses Str for its attack rolls while Battlemind uses Con. Sure, they both have the option of going Wis or Cha secondary, but to get a hybrid to work you really want to have your ability scores line up better than that. I'd strongly suggest against a Battlemind|Warlord hybrid with that under consideration.

If you're dead-set on a hybrid, you'd do much better with a Fighter|Warlord - Strength primary and probably Wisdom secondary. With a mul, you'll probably have Con as a tertiary stat so you should focus on axes or hammers. You likely won't have the points to boost Dex much so you'll almost certainly want a shield. Your first feats should probably either be the warlord feat to get training in scale & heavy shield or Hybrid Talent to pick up a fighter combat style.

[Kurald Galain]

I'm going to echo the above posters and say this hybrid is not a good idea.

Guy in heavy armor leading from the front? That's pure warlord.

[Epinephrine]

It really depends on what you want to do; I see two possibilities here:

1) tcrudisi's prediction of a Str/Con build; I've done something similar with a Fighter/Battlemind successfully (but they were trying to fill the same role, and it really took off around level 17)
2) Go with a Con/Cha battlemind, and use lazy warlord powers keyed off your Charisma.

[tcrudisi]

It really depends on what you want to do; I see two possibilities here:

1) tcrudisi's prediction of a Str/Con build; I've done something similar with a Fighter/Battlemind successfully (but they were trying to fill the same role, and it really took off around level 17)
2) Go with a Con/Cha battlemind, and use lazy warlord powers keyed off your Charisma.

1. A Fighter|Battlemind is actually a terrific hybrid. There's no multiple-attribute deficiency (Con primary, Cha secondary, Str is not dumped, but never increased either) and the build becomes quite possibly the best defender in the game at level 11. If not the best, it's in the discussion.

2. I'm AFB, but doesn't he need hybrid talent to pick up the Warlord class features? If so, then he has an option: mediocre AC with warlord class features, or good AC and not have any warlord powers keyed off his Cha. Since he wants to be in the front-line, he'll require a good AC, which means that, even if he goes lazylord, his powers will be lackluster.

[obryn]

Hybrids attract 3.x players like moths to flame. :smallsmile: Unlike in 3.x, you are almost always most effective when you stick to a single class.

I'd start there, get your feet in the system, and work with it from there. And there's always feat-based multiclassing; it's hardly going to set the world on fire, but it can give your PC the flavor of another class at a relatively low cost.

-O

[Tokuhara]

I have experience in 4e (Mostly Core only where I've not done the optimizer thing. Probably 6 or so Adventures with Dragonborn Paladin, Eladrin Wizard, Human Cleric, Half-Elf Warlock, and Human/Dwarf Warlord) and I read the Handbooks on both.

What I was looking at was making strength secondary and using a lot of Con/Cha synergy and Battlemind's vastly superior Armor Proficiencies. Seeing as how this is labeled a "bad idea," I don't know the party's decisions, and I'm hell-bent on Hybrid, what would you all suggest, since I'm dead-set on Mul (It's overall just one of my favorite races).

My biggest thing is I want a mix of new & old, because the games I played were in early 4e with some friends who I don't hang out with anymore. I want to wash the bad taste of old 4e out of my mouth and give this another try.

I'm not big on Controller/Striker roles in 4e (It's one of those "I wish this was 3.5 and I was a god"), but I'm a little bit open. My other issue with these classes is they're custom-built to be Glass Cannons and (in my experience) tend to die a lot, even with the most careful players (We had a Wizard/Fighter and a Ranger/Paladin multiclass and they swiftly got annihilated by two rather simple encounters that my Inspiring Warlord survived handily), so if you guys suggest a Controller or Striker on one side, PLEASE pair it with something that can survive a beating?

But my notice is that Defenders and Leaders don't generally hybridize well together (With certain exceptions), but to me, it makes the "Lead by Example" thing work.

So sorry that my horns look a tad green, but this is my first attempt at 4e optimization

[Epinephrine]

I'm AFB, but doesn't he need hybrid talent to pick up the Warlord class features? If so, then he has an option: mediocre AC with warlord class features, or good AC and not have any warlord powers keyed off his Cha. Since he wants to be in the front-line, he'll require a good AC, which means that, even if he goes lazylord, his powers will be lackluster.

Well, if he picks the Battlefront Leader option he starts with Chain and Heavy shield, and it would allow picking up Armored Warlord to grab Scale and another healing surge for a feat - so he can have scale+heavy shield for a feat, keeping his Hybrid Talent for something else.

That said, I'm not sure that Warlord/Battlemind is the best option, but it would eliminate the issue of multiple stats, and still have a decent AC.

If you want to be a front-line leader in heavy armour, and even with some defender-ish qualities, I'd say there are better ways to go about it.

Runepriests start with some heavy armour (defender-level) and are front line leaders, able to provide defending-type bonuses to their allies.
The Tactical Warpriest Cleric Paragon Path offers defender-like powers (including a mark and punishment mechanism) and could be taken either as a cleric of some sort (and clerics can do pretty well in melee, too) or as a cleric multiclass (Runepriest or Warlord, for example); doesn't hit that defender-type stride until paragon, but at that point you branch out a bit.

If you really want to blend a defender and a leader, a fighter or warden might be a better base defender to use, as these both use Strength as an attack attribute, making it easier to find a match with a Warlord, Runepriest, or Cleric leader.

[ghost_warlock]

I have experience in 4e (Mostly Core only where I've not done the optimizer thing. Probably 6 or so Adventures with Dragonborn Paladin, Eladrin Wizard, Human Cleric, Half-Elf Warlock, and Human/Dwarf Warlord) and I read the Handbooks on both.

What I was looking at was making strength secondary and using a lot of Con/Cha synergy and Battlemind's vastly superior Armor Proficiencies. Seeing as how this is labeled a "bad idea," I don't know the party's decisions, and I'm hell-bent on Hybrid, what would you all suggest, since I'm dead-set on Mul (It's overall just one of my favorite races).

My biggest thing is I want a mix of new & old, because the games I played were in early 4e with some friends who I don't hang out with anymore. I want to wash the bad taste of old 4e out of my mouth and give this another try.

I'm not big on Controller/Striker roles in 4e (It's one of those "I wish this was 3.5 and I was a god"), but I'm a little bit open. My other issue with these classes is they're custom-built to be Glass Cannons and (in my experience) tend to die a lot, even with the most careful players (We had a Wizard/Fighter and a Ranger/Paladin multiclass and they swiftly got annihilated by two rather simple encounters that my Inspiring Warlord survived handily), so if you guys suggest a Controller or Striker on one side, PLEASE pair it with something that can survive a beating?

But my notice is that Defenders and Leaders don't generally hybridize well together (With certain exceptions), but to me, it makes the "Lead by Example" thing work.

So sorry that my horns look a tad green, but this is my first attempt at 4e optimization

If you're dead set on a hybrid, then I'd suggest picking classes that use the same main stat, which is why I suggested Fighter|Warlord above. You'd have access to the full wealth of great fighter and warlord powers, some 1/encounter healing, and good survivability if you want Str>Wis>Con and used scale+heavy shield (get proficiency through going Battlefront Leader and taking the Armored Warlord feat at 1st). At 2nd level, use the Hybrid Talent feat to grab the fighter combat talent or one of the warlord action point benefits (which would qualify you for power riders you otherwise wouldn't get).


Well, if he picks the Battlefront Leader option he starts with Chain and Heavy shield, and it would allow picking up Armored Warlord to grab Scale and another healing surge for a feat - so he can have scale+heavy shield for a feat, keeping his Hybrid Talent for something else.

Yep, with Armored Warlord, a warlord has the exact same armor proficiencies as a battlemind. And if he was going to hybrid he'd have to spend a feat on the armor proficiencies anyway.


That said, I'm not sure that Warlord/Battlemind is the best option, but it would eliminate the issue of multiple stats, and still have a decent AC.

If you want to be a front-line leader in heavy armour, and even with some defender-ish qualities, I'd say there are better ways to go about it.

Runepriests start with some heavy armour (defender-level) and are front line leaders, able to provide defending-type bonuses to their allies.
The Tactical Warpriest Cleric Paragon Path offers defender-like powers (including a mark and punishment mechanism) and could be taken either as a cleric of some sort (and clerics can do pretty well in melee, too) or as a cleric multiclass (Runepriest or Warlord, for example); doesn't hit that defender-type stride until paragon, but at that point you branch out a bit.

If you really want to blend a defender and a leader, a fighter or warden might be a better base defender to use, as these both use Strength as an attack attribute, making it easier to find a match with a Warlord, Runepriest, or Cleric leader.

Note that Runepriest and Cleric may not be available, given the game is a Dark Sun game.

[Tokuhara]

If you're dead set on a hybrid, then I'd suggest picking classes that use the same main stat, which is why I suggested Fighter|Warlord above. You'd have access to the full wealth of great fighter and warlord powers, some 1/encounter healing, and good survivability if you want Str>Wis>Con and used scale+heavy shield (get proficiency through going Battlefront Leader and taking the Armored Warlord feat at 1st). At 2nd level, use the Hybrid Talent feat to grab the fighter combat talent or one of the warlord action point benefits (which would qualify you for power riders you otherwise wouldn't get).

True enough, but I also looked at my race's stats: Con, Wis/Str, which my my math leaves me with a few combinations that could be advantageous.

The Runepriest/Fighter makes sense, as does Wis Paladin/Cleric and Warden/Cleric on stat synergy.


Note that Runepriest and Cleric may not be available, given the game is a Dark Sun game.

The game isn't necessarily DS, but he's okay'd the race for this game, due to it being my preferred choice. IDK the setting, but he flat told me "Build what you want to"

[Tegu8788]

There are lots of good, pure, classes that make for good front of the line, encouraging, characters. Honestly, being a Leader is not the same as leading.


But you're like me. You want a hybrid. In my spoiler I have a chart of playable hybrids, I can't promise optimization but they work. If you want to be an armored character that can mark and heal, most of your options are going to be Str/Wis. Not absolute best with a Mul, but you'll be close enough and healthy.

I'd recommend a Warden, Fighter, or Straladin with a Cleric, Runepriest, or Warlord. A Shaman could work but I don't think that's your flavor. The Cleric makes for wonderful hybrids, thanks to Battle Cleric's lore, and if you go Lazylord you can build it based off any stat.

If you wanted Cha/Con, while not optimal with a Mul, a Chaladin|Bard or |Ardent could work. Both have the finest armor in the game, have healing powers, and have plenty of Cha to tell your party to behave.

Edit: Runepriest|Fighter, that's a solid option as well. You don't need to use your Hybrid Talent on AC, because they both have solid starting defenses. I think all you lose is a heavy shield, instead stuck with a light shield. Access to Runic States will be important, and remembering what does which is why I've not tried to really build one. Remember you only mark with Fighter powers, so be careful about having too many turns without using one. As always, finding ways to use all your actions is key. I would recommend either Devout Protector or Mighty Crusader for your expertise feat, depending on what weapon you want to use. I'd also recommend 18 for Str, bumping Wis as high as you can, then Con, Dex, and dumping either Int or Cha. That high a fort does nothing against the nastier effects, and leaves you very vulnerable.

[Sol]

Why are you dead-set on hybriding? Just because you haven't done so before?

In most cases, hybriding causes you to lose something incredibly important from each class. Sometimes multiple incredibly important things. And then you have to waste (or spend, depending on your world-view) a feat on getting to choose a single usually-watered-down version of one of those incredibly important features you gave up. Some of the most painful things to lose aren't even choices, and many combinations are forced to spend it on getting back all of the armor proficiencies they gave up, rather than on getting back anything interesting or character-defining.

In many cases, hybriding between two roles (such as defender|leader) isn't even so much a bad idea as that the result no longer fills either role. A Battlemind|Ardent hybrid ends up being much more effective as a striker than either parent class does alone, but also ends up pretty ineffective at either parent role. A lot of hybrids don't even result in a clear role, other than, "this guy is in the party too. he can do stuff, and things."

If "leading from the front" is what you want, a Bravura warlord with battlefront leader and Armored warlord is already exactly what you want. Keeping only the hybrid bits makes it already less of what you want. Adding battlemind doesn't add anything back.

Your experience with strikers and controllers being glass cannons is only explicable if your friends played the small handful of trap builds (such as swarm druids, or believing the PHB that CON is a Rageblood Barbarian's secondary stat) that have terrible defenses. But there's leader and defender trap builds as well, so that's a bad reason for a bias against those roles. More likely than that, your friends just built bad characters, and/or the DM rolled better against them than he did against your warlord in the aforementioned scenario. Almost all classes in 4e have easy access to incredible defenses. A wizard can easily have the same AC as the knight in full plate.

Your assumptions about the directions you can go based on your racial stats are kind of backwards. The bonuses don't give you added flexibility by covering one of your main attack stats for you so that you can dump it, they assist you in focusing all of your stats on your two key ones.

If you are absolutely deadset on a battlemind hybrid, use ardent, fighter, or warlock. Disregard all assumptions about what those builds would end up doing, because they're not sums of their parts, they're completely different beasts.

As a Battlemind|Ardent take Intent Laid Bare to solve your OA/MBA issues, the incredible Invitation to Defeat daily, and maybe Forward Thinking Cut. Pair that with Lightning Rush and Brutal Barrage for a mobile, DM-frustrating character who attacks several times per round and can punish any attack he wants.

As a fighter, go CHA/CON, take Brash Strike with Harlequin Style, multiclass bard, be terrible until level 11 when you can take the Daring Blade PP, and then have a ridiculous catch-22. You get +CHA to defenses with Harlequin Style Brash Strike, so your target will miss you. If they move away, you can OA and potentially stop their movement. If they shift away, you get Combat Challenge AND Blurred Step. If they subsequently charge after shifting, you get an OA.

As a Battlemind|Warlock, well, i'm less familiar with the shenanigans they can get up to, but I know there's an optimized one floating around somewhere.

But any battlemind hybrid is going to be unnecessarily complicated to make successful, in part because the battlemind is, itself, really weak unless you really know what you're doing when picking powers, feats, and items to synergize together.

If you're looking for a list of easy hybrids to make and do well with, take a look at really any STR-based class hybrided with a battle cleric. Popular picks are melee rangers and barbarians. Rangers go STR/WIS, Barbs STR/CHA. Battle Cleric's Lore gives Scale proficiency and a free +2 shield bonus to AC, without eating hybrid talent, and the other features a cleric gives up aren't overly important (Channel Divinity and Ritual Caster (which can be gotten back for a feat without eating Hybrid Talent)). Either usually takes Righteous Brand to convert into a MBA with a bonus effect via Power of Skill, though Fell Strike is pretty good once in Paragon if you take the Paragon of Victory PP and are using heavy blades or axes for Headsman's Chop nova bonuses. And of course Twin Strike or Howling Strike, followed by as many out-of-turn, minor-action, or multiattack encounters and dailies you can.

Warlord hybrids decently with anything STR, INT, WIS, or CHA based, though the latter three force you to pick 'lazy' powers (powers that don't involve you actually making any attack rolls). They have dual-class-required paragon paths for most of the STR classes. The paladin one (Sainted General), Fighter one (Battle Champion), and Barbarian one (Warpath Berserker) are all pretty top-notch.

As Tegu has said, many hybrids can be made to work. But the question is still why? If the answer is not that you want added complexity, or if you're unsure you can handle the added complexity, you shouldn't hybrid. I have a player in one of my online groups who always makes TERRIBLE hybrids, who have never across a combined 40+ levels of play had a positive impact in combat. His characters increase the difficulty level of combat encounters (because they're constructed for 6 PCs), and he contributes nothing. He's a fantastic roleplayer, a friend, and a nice guy, so no one has said much to him about it, but I'm using him as an example here. If you want to hybrid, you need to know what, mechanically, you want, and you need to select only parts that actually build towards that result.

One of the very best things about 4e is that its mechanics are explicitly separate from fluff. Any and all flavor text is actively encouraged to be ignored and replaced at any whim, so long as you can come up with another creative explanation for the given mechanics. This means that many fantasy tropes are possible to create with 5+ different classes without a stretch. It's not particularly important which concept is created first - the mechanical construct or the character idea, but the best (and most fun!) characters stem from trying to prevent either from influencing the other. Pick mechanics that can be explained by your story, rather than whichever powers already describe themselves in that manner.

[Tokuhara]

There are lots of good, pure, classes that make for good front of the line, encouraging, characters. Honestly, being a Leader is not the same as leading.


But you're like me. You want a hybrid. In my spoiler I have a chart of playable hybrids, I can't promise optimization but they work. If you want to be an armored character that can mark and heal, most of your options are going to be Str/Wis. Not absolute best with a Mul, but you'll be close enough and healthy.

I'd recommend a Warden, Fighter, or Straladin with a Cleric, Runepriest, or Warlord. A Shaman could work but I don't think that's your flavor. The Cleric makes for wonderful hybrids, thanks to Battle Cleric's lore, and if you go Lazylord you can build it based off any stat.

If you wanted Cha/Con, while not optimal with a Mul, a Chaladin|Bard or |Ardent could work. Both have the finest armor in the game, have healing powers, and have plenty of Cha to tell your party to behave.

Edit: Runepriest|Fighter, that's a solid option as well. You don't need to use your Hybrid Talent on AC, because they both have solid starting defenses. I think all you lose is a heavy shield, instead stuck with a light shield. Access to Runic States will be important, and remembering what does which is why I've not tried to really build one. Remember you only mark with Fighter powers, so be careful about having too many turns without using one. As always, finding ways to use all your actions is key. I would recommend either Devout Protector or Mighty Crusader for your expertise feat, depending on what weapon you want to use. I'd also recommend 18 for Str, bumping Wis as high as you can, then Con, Dex, and dumping either Int or Cha. That high a fort does nothing against the nastier effects, and leaves you very vulnerable.

Well the Fighter/Runepriest (which BTW needs a cool "Hybrid Name". I saw Vanguard, but it sound's too Paladin-y) loses shields in general, thus a Wrathful Hammer Runepriest seems like the soundest proposition with the Heritage Talent: Rune Master feat at 1, with Crushing Surge & Word of Shielding as my At-Wills, Anvil of Battle as my Encounter, and Villain's Menace as my Daily, the Earthforger theme, and Heal/Endurance/Religion tagged as my trained skills. My big thing is that Defenders need to be part sack-o'-HP and part Impassable Wall.

My end-state is to be strapped to the gills in Fullplate, using my Runes to fill what my Fighter powers can't cover, and generally being hard to kill. This is a PC who is running in with a heavily armored body and a face-pummeling hammer that just that morning was forging a sword as a gift to a noble. And it's going to hurt. Period.

[Epinephrine]

Having taken a gander at the requests of the playground, I've decided Runepriest/Fighter is a more sound hybrid, running heavy on Str/Con with Wis as a backfill and Dexterity dumped like a body in a ditch.

I'm using a Dual-Specialist array, looking at using both 16's for Str/Con, my 12 in Wisdom, my 11's for Int and Cha, and Dex getting the 8, leaving me with 18/8/18/11/12/11 for my spread (not bad really)

Now, can someone help me get the rest of the way without compromising my overall potential?

What level do you want it designed for? Do you want to emphasize your damage output, ability to control foes, your ability to protect your team? Set up a catch 22? Punish disobeying your mark even further?

Are you sold on Fighter? Str/Con Earthstrength Warden packs a wallop with a hammer (+Con damage when you slow/immobilised from Crippling Crush, +Con damage while in a form with a Maw of the Guardian weapon, and +Con damage if the target had hit you from Wrathful Hammer.)

Anyway, some Paragon Path options when planning him out:
Hammer of Vengeance: Get the ability to enter a runestate, then attack as an immediate reaction to your allies attacking an enemy adjacent to you; If you arrange your attacks to happen after the bulk of your allies, you can nearly guarantee making use of your immediate actions; if the enemies attack you, you punish them after your allies strike; if they attack your allies, you content yourself with using your fighter mark punishment.
Rune Shield: Very defensive, makes allies nigh unhittable (between a mark on your enemy and a +4 to all defenses from your runestate).
Gladiator Champion: This makes you almost impossible to get away from; the level 16 feature is that adjacent enemies can't shift to squares not adjacent to you. Good luck getting away, if you've worked on your OAs (if you can knock prone, you're golden). I made a battlemind/fighter that used Brutal barrage for this purpose, swinging a khopesh (axe/heavy blade to get headsman's chop, savage axe (+Con to damage with OAs), and heavy blade opportunity), could actually pick it up as a fighter/runepriest by MC battlemind and using Psionic Dabbler to get Brutal Barrage as a swap.
Tactical WarpriestWould require that you multiclass to Cleric, but has an interesting mark and punishment that uses an Opportunity attack to punish mark violation. As it is an OA mark punishment, you can either double punish people (both the fighter and warden use an immediate reaction), or punish once with your OA, and still have your Immediate for use against a second target.

I'm sure other options exist, but those examples leap to mind. For OAs, Warden or MC Warden can open up slowing with them, which is handy.

[Tokuhara]

What level do you want it designed for? Do you want to emphasize your damage output, ability to control foes, your ability to protect your team? Set up a catch 22? Punish disobeying your mark even further?

Are you sold on Fighter? Str/Con Earthstrength Warden packs a wallop with a hammer (+Con damage when you slow/immobilised from Crippling Crush, +Con damage while in a form with a Maw of the Guardian weapon, and +Con damage if the target had hit you from Wrathful Hammer.)

Anyway, some Paragon Path options when planning him out:
Hammer of Vengeance: Get the ability to enter a runestate, then attack as an immediate reaction to your allies attacking an enemy adjacent to you; If you arrange your attacks to happen after the bulk of your allies, you can nearly guarantee making use of your immediate actions; if the enemies attack you, you punish them after your allies strike; if they attack your allies, you content yourself with using your fighter mark punishment.
Rune Shield: Very defensive, makes allies nigh unhittable (between a mark on your enemy and a +4 to all defenses from your runestate).
Gladiator Champion: This makes you almost impossible to get away from; the level 16 feature is that adjacent enemies can't shift to squares not adjacent to you. Good luck getting away, if you've worked on your OAs (if you can knock prone, you're golden). I made a battlemind/fighter that used Brutal barrage for this purpose, swinging a khopesh (axe/heavy blade to get headsman's chop, savage axe (+Con to damage with OAs), and heavy blade opportunity), could actually pick it up as a fighter/runepriest by MC battlemind and using Psionic Dabbler to get Brutal Barrage as a swap.
Tactical WarpriestWould require that you multiclass to Cleric, but has an interesting mark and punishment that uses an Opportunity attack to punish mark violation. As it is an OA mark punishment, you can either double punish people (both the fighter and warden use an immediate reaction), or punish once with your OA, and still have your Immediate for use against a second target.

I'm sure other options exist, but those examples leap to mind. For OAs, Warden or MC Warden can open up slowing with them, which is handy.

I want to have enough damage/marking output to keep the "aggro" on me while my party can take as little damage as possible, whilst able to burn heals on myself for IC, buff my party, and generally win the battle (if need be) by attrition (if I can keep myself alive longer than they can, I win, Thus, if I have more HP/Def than a lot of things while still hitting like a runaway Ice Cream Truck, I'll be happy).

And for Fighter, It's just a classic. Sure Earthstrength Warden is probably vastly superior, but I had considered Battlerager Vigor on my fighter side to give me THP that would help me have "staying power". Combine this with Con being one of my Top 2 stats (Strength being my other), I'll have the HP to where if they hit me, it doesn't matter. And that's a BIG if (planning on Plating out with my Maul out)

[tcrudisi]

I want to have enough damage/marking output to keep the "aggro" on me while my party can take as little damage as possible, whilst able to burn heals on myself for IC, buff my party, and generally win the battle (if need be) by attrition (if I can keep myself alive longer than they can, I win, Thus, if I have more HP/Def than a lot of things while still hitting like a runaway Ice Cream Truck, I'll be happy).

And for Fighter, It's just a classic. Sure Earthstrength Warden is probably vastly superior, but I had considered Battlerager Vigor on my fighter side to give me THP that would help me have "staying power". Combine this with Con being one of my Top 2 stats (Strength being my other), I'll have the HP to where if they hit me, it doesn't matter. And that's a BIG if (planning on Plating out with my Maul out)

haha. In describing your ideal character, you just said, "I want to be a defender, leader, and striker."

But, I've got a solution. It's not perfect, but nothing is. Even better: It's a hybrid. Runepriest|Avenger. You'll use Hybrid Talent on armor and get a nice AC. Str and Wis are your primary stats, so your Fort and Will will be nice. (Ref is your dump stat.)

Does it tank? You have no way of holding agro. Basically. But your defenses are good and you'll be very resilient.

Does it heal? Well, yeah. Not as good as a normal healer, but he can keep himself alive.

Does it buff? Absolutely. Your entire party. The bonuses aren't mind-blowing, but they add up. Most importantly, those buffs actually work on you. (Most leaders tend to buff allies only and miss out on their own buffs.)

Does it do damage? It basically does Avenger damage until level 11, then it becomes an amazing striker at level 11 (Hammer of Vengeance paragon path).

It's the closest character that I can come up with right now. You aren't going to find anything that's a hybrid that can defend, buff, heal, and do damage.

Do note: Constitution is only lightly tied to hit points. As in, if your Con is high, then great. If not, then there is a way to base your hit points on your highest stat instead (a background). So, the only thing Con is really important for is your healing surges. And not even that at high paragon for some characters.

[Tokuhara]

So here's an intelligent question:

There's 3 "builds" for this Mul Hybrid

Runepriest/Fighter
Runepriest/Earthstrength Warden
Runepriest/Avenger

As the non-expert here, what would the advantages/disadvantages of these be?

The fighter shell gets (likely) the best armor (up to scale, making Plate 1 feat away) and has a decent Mark/Punish ability, Warden has HP in spades (IIRC, the most of any PC class without adding a score) and some control/damage output with Close AoE Marking with a "rubber band" mechanic, and Avenger can deal damage and punish for getting hit/enemy not moving.

At least that's how it looks to me, but I may be wrong.

[tcrudisi]

Runepriest has basically equal AC to the Fighter. It gets Scale (one away from plate) and a Light Shield. For a light shield, use a spiked shield and put the level 4 enchantment Rhythm Blade on it. This causes it to increase it's shield bonus by 1, making it exactly equal to a heavy shield. In other words: Exactly equal AC as a Fighter.

So, the question is not what AC each gives you, since if you are going Runepriest, it's the exact same for each, it's what other features it gives you.

How much damage you do with the Fighter hybrid is really dependent upon how your DM plays. Many DMs do not violate the marks. Others do all the time. But - even if your DM violates the mark every turn ... you won't be marking every turn. You only mark when you attack with a Fighter power, and that's not going to be every turn. (Or if it is every turn, why did you hybrid and take half your powers as Runepriest powers?) So you'll be a poor defender (but at least you are able to defend), but your damage will be lackluster.

The Avenger half is different. You only get to use your Oath on Avenger powers, but that's not a problem. Primarily you've got your combo that you'll use, especially at level 11+. You'll be highly accurate, do very solid damage (approximately equal to an Avenger at heroic tier and better than many strikers in paragon and epic tier), and be completely unable to defend. So while you aren't a defender, you ARE a striker.

So...
Fighter: Poor Defender, Poor Striker.
Avenger: Not a Defender at all, Solid Striker.
Warden: No clue. It's a class that I never mess around with because I'm not a fan of the flavor. If I want to play a defender, I tend to go to Battlemind or Fighter. I can say that I'm just generally unimpressed with the class. The extra hp really isn't that much. Though, this is probably the "easiest" of the bunch to create and do okay with. The others require a bit more ... finessing ... to work optimally.

[tcrudisi]

The fighter shell gets (likely) the best armor (up to scale, making Plate 1 feat away) and has a decent Mark/Punish ability, Warden has HP in spades (IIRC, the most of any PC class without adding a score) and some control/damage output with Close AoE Marking with a "rubber band" mechanic, and Avenger can deal damage and punish for getting hit/enemy not moving.

At least that's how it looks to me, but I may be wrong.

Just to clarify: You aren't going to get most of this when you hybrid.

Fighter ONLY gets to mark when they attack with a Fighter power. Since half your powers will be Runepriest powers, you'll find you aren't marking every round. As such, you won't get to even threaten monsters with punishment every round ... which will make you a very poor tank. As soon as you try to use a Runepriest power, the monsters will shift and charge an ally, just to avoid you.

Worse, your feats will be across the board. Do you take feats that make you a better defender? Do you take feats that increase your damage? Or do you take feats that make you a better leader? What will (likely) end up happening is that you'll be piss-poor at one of those. You literally just can't do everything in 4e. There's not enough resources. So while you think you can ramp up damage with your close burst Fighter powers (and you can), that just means that something else will suffer. Either you'll be a crappy defender because of it or a very bad leader. Trying to do all 3 will make the character bad at everything.

You also lose the things that make a Fighter so darn good. It's innate accuracy is something you need to take Hybrid Talent for, as is Combat Specialty (Combat Superiority, the bonus with Opp Attacks) that makes Fighters so darn good at defending. Without those, the Fighter is still a decent defender, it's just middle-of-the-road. (But combine it with only being a Fighter half the time because of hybriding and it drops down to a very bad defender.)

The Avenger hybrid solves some of that by saying, "I'm not a defender." It has defender-level defenses, sure, but it can't keep a monsters attention beyond "I'm hitting you really hard." The Avenger won't be able to punish the enemy for moving/not moving or whatever. Why? Because it's a hybrid. You lose that ability.

Hybrid Wardens don't actually lose that much. You lose your saving throws at the beginning of a round (which is VERY nice), but that's it. You lose the least by going Warden ... but they started off with the least. So, 6 in one hand, bush in the other.

[Epinephrine]

Here's a quick attempt at a Fighter/Runepriest that can hold some aggro; you're not getting much from the runepriest side except the runestate (+1 to attack rolls most likely) and a few powers, plus the heal. Most of it is fighter feats, a stolen battlemind power, and so on.

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Himithis, level 16
Mul, Runepriest/Fighter, Gladiator Champion
Runic Artistry Option: Wrathful Hammer
Hybrid Talent Option: Rune Master
Born of Two Races Option: Dwarf

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
STR 22, CON 21, DEX 15, INT 11, WIS 12, CHA 9

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
STR 16, CON 15, DEX 14, INT 10, WIS 11, CHA 8

POWERS
Basic Attack: Melee Basic Attack
Basic Attack: Ranged Basic Attack
Mul Racial Power: Incredible Toughness
Runepriest Feature: Rune of Mending
Fighter Attack: Combat Challenge
Battlemind Feature: Battlemind's Demand
Fighter Attack 1: Weapon Master's Strike
Runepriest Attack 1: Word of Diminishment
Runepriest Attack 1: Anvil of Battle
Runepriest Attack 1: Rune of the Undeniable Dawn
Runepriest Utility 2: Icon of Victory
Fighter Attack 5: Rain of Steel
Fighter Utility 6: Kirre's Roar
Fighter Utility 6: Daring Shout
Fighter Attack 7: Come and Get It
Gladiator Champion Attack 11: Opening Ploy
Gladiator Champion Utility 12: Fail to Disappoint
Battlemind Attack 13: Brutal Barrage
Fighter Attack 15: Unyielding Avalanche
Fighter Utility 16: Shield Clamor

FEATS
Level 1: Hybrid Talent
Level 2: Dwarven Weapon Training
Level 4: Axe Expertise
Level 6: Savage Axe
Level 8: Demanding Talent
Level 10: Psionic Dabbler
Level 11: Heavy Blade Opportunity
Level 12: Deadly Axe
Level 14: Blade Opportunist
Level 16: Last Legion Defender

ITEMS
Defensive Khopesh +4
Light Shield
Magic Scale Armor +4
Cloak of the Walking Wounded +3
Helm of Exemplary Defense
Strikebacks
====== End ======

Move into range of enemies, use come and get it, then mark everyone.
They can't shift away from you, so they either attack you, or they take OAs.
Your OA can use Brutal Barrage, which will knock them prone if you can hit with 2 of the 3 rolls. you are also crit fishing by having multiple swings at them. He's set up to be able to just tank by activating his auto damage stances and taking total defense actions, turtling in a pile of enemies, and knocking them on their butts if they try to get away. I think he's at +6 to all defenses when he takes a total defense, which makes him hard to hit (I didn't check his AC, but it should be ok)
His accuracy wouldn't be great, but since you are mostly using opportunity attacks and can be in a runestate, you probably have an additional +4 to hit your enemies; rolling three times you have a pretty good chance of hitting twice. Damage from the Khopesh with Brutal Barrage is Con per hit (5), +2 for dwarf, +Con (5)for Savage Axe, +2 for helm, so that's 14 damage if you hit. Headsman's chop could add another 5 when they are prone, if you can work that in.

Not perfect, just a quick try. I probably massively overdid the mass marking, since you won't need much, so perhaps those should be swapped for other powers. There are other options, using more runepriest effects, etc. Hammer of Vengeance can make for a very strong attacker.

[Tokuhara]

Having done a thorough perusal of the three, fighter is officially off the table, since lost control is bad news.

As for the Avenger, my biggest issue is survivability. Avenger is a (Relatively) Low HP melee class a la Rogue, and when it gets hit, it doesn't help when you can't back off. Personally, I'd pair Avenger with a Defender to give it more control over getting pimp-smacked by every melee monster in the books. And if I did it with Runepriest, it's a definite late bloomer (level 11/30 means I need to find a trick to Not Die 1-10)

And concerning Warden, I love the flavor of the "Guardian of Nature" stchick. Sure it's underwhelming, but its overall abilities (Controller/Striker on a Defender chassis) is kind of hot. Plus, being able to soak a hit, dust off, and insult the monster for hitting like a vegetarian (to my vegetarian players, no offense meant) just screams, "This is a tough hombre." Granted, the double-tap on saves would be nice, but being generally hard to kill and doing an admirable amount of damage is comforting. I'm no striker, but with Warden, you can make enemies pay attention to you, even if it's using the ancient Kung-Fu technique of "Big Hammer to the Backside" when you aren't being focused on, much like Order of the Shield Samurai from Pathfinder.

So TL;DR - Maximum damage output is off the table, so I'd rather do enough damage to keep their attention while being hard to hit/having enough HP/Def to render an attack moot and still function as an off-Leader, since I know that I can't 100% match a straight-up leader in his heal/buff/woohey, nor am I as "target me, or pay" as a bonafied Defender. I also know that this sounds the same, but I want my damage to be enough where they focus on me, not one-shot them, like a striker would.

[tcrudisi]

HP in 4e is basically the same across the board. Take the Auspicious Birth background and you'll have your highest stat to hp (instead of Con) anyway.

Avengers are a high hp class known for being both the toughest strikers (only Barbarians equal them in hp) and having, by far, the best defenses of all strikers throughout an adventuring day. (Their secondary role is defender.) Even more so - their defenses are not only the highest out of all strikers, they are also easy to build so that they have better defenses than every defender. Only a swordmage can rival them. An Avenger can easily be built that has better AC and defenses than a Paladin, and Pallies wear full plate with a heavy shield. Avengers get 6 hp / level, which is defender level and equal to Fighters. Which means your limiting factor is actually Runepriest. Because you are hybriding with Runepriest, it will knock you down to 5 hp / level.

Note that you won't be able to achieve those defenses because you'll be wearing heavy armor. Plate limits the level of AC that you can achieve. Sure, it's high, but to have the highest AC in the game, you have to wear light armor. A hybrid Runepriest won't be able to do that. But, a hybrid Runepriest absolutely will be able to reach defender level defenses, which is pretty good.

It feels like you don't understand the basic hybrid rules. Check out p. 134 of the PHB 3.

One thing to note: If you hybrid Warden with Runepriest then you will get 6 hp / level. The Warden gives you 3.5/level while Runepriest gives you 2.5. Add them up and get to 6. Pretty much every other class is going to average at 5 (except for like Wizard), since the fractions round down. So a Runepriest|Fighter and a Runepriest|Avenger will both get 5 hp / level.

How much of a difference does that 1 hp / level make? I'd argue very little. The highest hp character that I've seen in play belonged to a Druid, and they get 5 hp / level. That was a level 30 character and we did have a level 30 Warden in that game.

edit: A striker won't one-shot an enemy, anyway. That's unrealistic. In fact, striker baseline is to kill an enemy in 4 rounds. If they can do it in 3 rounds, it's considered good, and 2 rounds is considered great.

To compare the difference in striker damage vs. defender damage, let me use my level 17 game as an example. I'm playing a striker. I do approximately 130 damage in a round. That's using at-wills only. (I've done over 800 in one round before, and it would have spiked up higher had the monsters not all died on me.) I'm a bit high, but the other striker does about 100 in a round. The defender averages about 15 (I'm including misses). On a 1 to a 10 in terms of optimization, we're at about ... 8. We have our limits about what we'll do and won't do.

What am I trying to say? If you are a Runepriest|Fighter, you would never keep the monsters attention off of me or the other striker. It just won't happen. Our DM has learned to ignore the defenders mark and focus on me first (since I'm in melee range) and the Sorc second (when he can get near him). But that plays into our hands because our defender is a full Shielding Swordmage, so he can keep us alive very easily. What would that Runepriest|Fighter or Runepriest|Warden do to protect me? (Hint: Not much. My character would be very different. I'd be doing less damage and have a lot more "get the hell away from monster" or "make the monster miss" tricks.)

At this point, I'm actually more arguing against playing a hybrid at all. Or, if everyone else is going to play an optimized character, then play one of the hybrids that work. The problem with hybrids is they either fail horribly (50%), just fail (the other 50%), or rock so hard that the rest of the party has to be high-optimization to keep up (1%). If the rest of the party is going to go high-op, I'll direct you to one of the rocking ones. If the rest of the party has no idea about basic optimization, then something like a Runepriest|Defender hybrid would fit in nicely, as you could optimize it and end up at about the average level.

As for the hybrids that work, a lot of them actually are defenders. But they aren't strikers or leaders. They just defend amazingly well. But defenders don't really come online until level 11+ as a general rule (excepting Battleminds who start off weaker but come online at level 7). They do fine until then, but at level 11+ is when they really begin to shine at their duty. Hybrid defenders are the same.

[Epinephrine]

The highest hp character that I've seen in play belonged to a Druid, and they get 5 hp / level. That was a level 30 character and we did have a level 30 Warden in that game.

Sorry, but how is that even possible? With the crappiest possible stats (Con of 8) the Warden will have 228 HP. With maximum HP for a druid (call it starting 20 in HP stat, increment that stat every level and with epic destiny (take Indomitable Champion Epic Destiny for +20 HP, take Juggernaut for an extra +10 HP at paragon, and take toughness for +15. That's 232 total, so I suppose it's possible (just barely, and only by taking every available source of HP I can think of an nerfing the Warden), but it's a bit of a stretch - in general, Wardens have more HP than their teammates. Often by quite an edge, if they are the main defender and their strikers are the casting type.

On the subject of what you want to do; a Warden (non-hybrid) can hit hard enough to ensure that enemies take notice, and can be pretty sticky via abilities or paragon path. You don't need to hybrid leader, really.

If you want the whole "defender, but I can support as leader", why not go with a leadery paragon path, a leader-type option for a class, or a leader multiclass? Heck, a paladin can hand out a lot of HP for a defender, and the Hospitaler paragon path hands out surgeless heals pretty regularly. Would that be sufficient? you get the heaviest armour in game to start with, you have built in leader qualities, and powers that defend your allies and support them. Paladins don't have to be "good", you can follow someone like Erathis, and support civilization, which comes with a decent feat (Shield of Hestavar) to protect adjacent allies.

[Tokuhara]

I want to hybrid simply so I can rinse the bad 4e taste out of my mouth. I played back in Vanilla 4e and the group I played with broke up because out of a party of 5, we had 2 Controllers (both Wizards), 2 Leaders (A Cleric and a Half-Competent Warlord), and me (at the time, being the only defender in the group) and they complained when they got killed. Well, they got killed because

1. One was a melee-specialized Wizard, which to me is asinine and the other yucked scorching burst instead of using Encounter powers

2. The Cleric and Warlord were too busy trying to keep me upright, since I was the ONLY guy who did halfway decent damage

3. As a Dragonborn Paladin, I had enough toys to draw fire, but the Melee Wizard kept doing dumb things (like AoE bursting and catching me in the blast, thus making my job 100x harder)

Now, this game isn't with them, but the last session ended with me picking up the sheet and my dice and driving home, telling them a lot of things that I cannot say on this forum. The DM was good, but people who "play for fluff" drive me crazy, since the Wizards only accomplished getting in the way.

Now, if Runepriest isn't a good fit, then what is a suggested idea so I can undo the bad memories of 4e while still being a Hybrid (I like the concept, because it opens up options and great flavor concepts, like the Battlemind who decides to join the Priesthood or the Avenger who cannot escape his pact with devils)

[Tegu8788]

I love hybrids. Adore them. Most people on the board know this. I'm always excited to help someone build a fun hybrid.



You have yet to give a reason why you need to play a hybrid. Everything you have wanted to do can be done by a single pure class, maybe with some theme/multiclass fun. No mechanical reason, and just wanting to do something different doesn't really cut it.

At no point will you make a character that is great at everything. I've got a build that can do everything, but only in a support role to existing characters.



If you want to play a character with multiple aspects, then pick a class that fights how you like and just roleplay. There is no reason you can't be a ::insert practically any class here:: that received psychic training in a temple but has been cast out because of his communing with devils.


Simplest way to do what you want, Mul Fighter MC Binder, Noble Adept theme with any background that has Religion attached to it. 20/12/11/8/14/10 at level one, bumping Str and Wis whenever you can.

[tcrudisi]

Sorry, but how is that even possible? With the crappiest possible stats (Con of 8) the Warden will have 228 HP. With maximum HP for a druid (call it starting 20 in HP stat, increment that stat every level and with epic destiny (take Indomitable Champion Epic Destiny for +20 HP, take Juggernaut for an extra +10 HP at paragon, and take toughness for +15. That's 232 total, so I suppose it's possible (just barely, and only by taking every available source of HP I can think of an nerfing the Warden), but it's a bit of a stretch - in general, Wardens have more HP than their teammates. Often by quite an edge, if they are the main defender and their strikers are the casting type.

On the subject of what you want to do; a Warden (non-hybrid) can hit hard enough to ensure that enemies take notice, and can be pretty sticky via abilities or paragon path. You don't need to hybrid leader, really.

If you want the whole "defender, but I can support as leader", why not go with a leadery paragon path, a leader-type option for a class, or a leader multiclass? Heck, a paladin can hand out a lot of HP for a defender, and the Hospitaler paragon path hands out surgeless heals pretty regularly. Would that be sufficient? you get the heaviest armour in game to start with, you have built in leader qualities, and powers that defend your allies and support them. Paladins don't have to be "good", you can follow someone like Erathis, and support civilization, which comes with a decent feat (Shield of Hestavar) to protect adjacent allies.

You missed out on at least one item that increases hit points (Brooch of Vitality). But yes - she was Indomitable Champion (+20), had Toughness (+15), had the neck item (+20), had a higher stat to boost (+30 Wis vs +15 or so Con) and I'm pretty sure had one more increase to hp. The Warden naturally gets something like 60 more hp, but those differences right there are already at 70 in favor of the Druid.

The Warden didn't have Con 8 - she had a decent Con, but the Druids Wis was still 30, and that was also a significant boost.

"But why?" Well, she was playing a summoner, so she wanted her bloodied value and healing surge values to be as high as possible. In a party that had 1 leader (myself), 1 defender, and 5 people focusing on damage, she outstripped them by about 3x as much in a typical encounter, but only if her summons remained alive, so she wanted to make sure her summons stayed alive.

[Tokuhara]

I feel the need to interject that Hybrid to me is a mechanically and flavorfully intriguing concept. Because to me, the "how" and the "why" are fundamental in designing a character, usually looking at mechanics and roleplaying as two halves to a single character that aren't mutually exclusive.

So while Hybrids generally aren't "superior" or "optimal," I'm looking to try it so I can exercise the fascination with the mechanic as a whole and to see what can be obtained through its usage. Not to mention this is me seeing if 4e is my cup of tea, considering that I stepped out of the game in its infancy, having effectively exhausted the core classes, having played and/or seen them. Thus, I'm open to trying something that requires some babying in hopes of a quality payoff.

So here's a revision: What is an effective hybrid for someone who is in my unique predicament that utilizes new classes/races/etc to achieve a character that can survive a standard 1-30 romp through a campaign? I'm far more open, since I am not the expert in 4e (in fact, I'm likely to be deemed an amateur in this version, having played 3.5/PF since the collapse of my 4e group) and am willing to consider that while Hybrids are difficult to build, there is some measure of reward in playing the "Sub-Optimal" whilst being optimized for the concept.

[Edit]: Taking a chance to look over classes and races again, I want to ask this: How Well does Githzerai Assault Swordmage/Avenger Hybrid function in "Realistic" play environments? To me, the Int stacking with a secondary of Wis seems great (good Will, Reflex, and AC (going Armor of Faith); Decent damage output when you get Githzerai Blade Master; Decent overall HP; Reliable hitting; and capable of being an "annoyer" striker who Oaths and punishes them by marking them and not letting them escape) and can fill the needs nicely. Plus, what would the roleplay implications of a Githzerai Swordmage/Avenger Hybrid be?

[Tegu8788]

That request is easier to do. Wanting to be the best (or great) at two/three roles in a system that rewards specialization is very hard. It's like trying to fence, play chess, and woo that cutie in the corner, all at once.

I've got a list of functional hybrids in my signature that you can look over and see if anything strikes your fancy , but I would recommend you take a look at a Tiefling Paladin|Warlock. They are a very strong combo, with feat support explicitly for them. They can Defender well enough while Striking, with some action economy issues.

[Tokuhara]

That request is easier to do. Wanting to be the best (or great) at two/three roles in a system that rewards specialization is very hard. It's like trying to fence, play chess, and woo that cutie in the corner, all at once.

I've got a list of functional hybrids in my signature that you can look over and see if anything strikes your fancy , but I would recommend you take a look at a Tiefling Paladin|Warlock. They are a very strong combo, with feat support explicitly for them. They can Defender well enough while Striking, with some action economy issues.

The "Outcast" seems really powerful, combining the sticky of Paladin with the Annoy of Warlock.

How well does Swordmage/Avenger combine?

[Tegu8788]

I have not played around with one, but if you can get an Avenger MBA to combo with the Assault Swordmage, then you've got something fun there. If memory serves a Deva would work well, fluff as old memories seeping in if you will. Fixing your AC would be a priority, but nothing that can't be overcome.

[Tokuhara]

I have not played around with one, but if you can get an Avenger MBA to combo with the Assault Swordmage, then you've got something fun there. If memory serves a Deva would work well, fluff as old memories seeping in if you will. Fixing your AC would be a priority, but nothing that can't be overcome.

Well, the build I looked at used Githzerai as the race, focusing on Heavy Blades (Githzerai Blade Master being the 2nd level feat) and running Armor of Faith, which to my understanding is a decent bit of low-armor AC. The big idea was to OoE followed by Overwhelming Strike, then next turn Mark them and continue the vicious cycle of restricting their movement and keeping them uncomfortably close with OwS and Blazing Pursuit. Considering that Avenger is an Int/Wis class and Swordmage is Int/Whatever, you can stand to have a "below average" Strength for a melee monkey and still hit 90% of the time.

And I'm still learning Lingo, so what does MBA mean???

[tcrudisi]

I have not played around with one, but if you can get an Avenger MBA to combo with the Assault Swordmage, then you've got something fun there. If memory serves a Deva would work well, fluff as old memories seeping in if you will. Fixing your AC would be a priority, but nothing that can't be overcome.

This. It sounds ... okay.

You'll want to take take the Swordmage Warding rather than the Avenger's Armor of Faith (both are +3 if memory serves me correctly, but the Swordmage one can be boosted higher). You'll also want Leather Armor proficiency early - so by level 2, with those combined, you can be at 20 AC when most defenders are at 21. That's acceptable. It's light armor, so it's easier to fix in the future.

I can see what Tegu is saying about the Assault Swordmage, and his idea is right in theory, but in practice it wouldn't really work.It's complicated to explain why, but I'll give it a shot.

You'll be able to keep a monster marked. This is the one that you could punish if they violate the mark. The problem? You are also allowed to only have one person designated as your Oath of Enmity. (As an aside: Remember that you can only use the Oath on your Avenger powers as a hybrid.) So, what's going to happen? That monster is going to attack you.

Sounds good, right? Sure - but then you aren't getting any extra attacks. Swordmages actually want the enemy to violate their mark. They mark, move away, and then hope the monster is stupid enough to go after an ally. In this case, they've got a reason not to: You WILL hit them, it'll be hard, and there's a decent chance it will crit. Yeah, uh, no thanks. I'll just attack the Swordmage|Avenger. So it'll stay on you.

As such, it won't trigger your mark and it actually invalidates a lot of your damage. Ah well - at least you'll keep it's attention with your almost defender-level defenses. You've accomplished that, albeit worse than a straight Assault Swordmage would do. However - you will actually be able to do some damage, which is something a typical swordmage isn't very good at, so there is that tradeoff. Your accuracy as a swordmage will be lower (since you are starting with a lower Int), but your Avenger powers will usually be accurate. I say usually, because it's actually a bit more complicated. It'll be tempting to go to the group of monsters and lock them down, but if you do that, you won't be able to use your Oath.

It's not a terrible combination, but it's workable. It'll require a lot of teamwork to bring it up to par with a typical swordmage, but it's doable. Assault Swordmage makes some sense, but you can take feats to improve Shielding if you went that route ... but I still think Assault makes slightly more sense.

[tcrudisi]

Well, the build I looked at used Githzerai as the race, focusing on Heavy Blades (Githzerai Blade Master being the 2nd level feat) and running Armor of Faith, which to my understanding is a decent bit of low-armor AC. The big idea was to OoE followed by Overwhelming Strike, then next turn Mark them and continue the vicious cycle of restricting their movement and keeping them uncomfortably close with OwS and Blazing Pursuit. Considering that Avenger is an Int/Wis class and Swordmage is Int/Whatever, you can stand to have a "below average" Strength for a melee monkey and still hit 90% of the time.

And I'm still learning Lingo, so what does MBA mean???

MBA means melee basic attack. It's typically strength-based, so with most builds, unless you are Strength-primary or secondary, you won't hit with a melee basic. It's what you do when the monster incurs an opportunity attack or you use your aegis of assault.

Now - there are actually two ways around this with this character and both are feats. First, Intelligent Blademaster. You can use Int for attack and damage with melee basics instead of Strength. Second is to worship a god of knowledge and take a feat which lets you use Overwhelming Strike as a melee basic (best option). You will NEED a good melee basic, and early. A defender without a strong melee basic is not a defender at all. You can't lock anyone down when they can just walk away from you without fear of being hurt.

Do remember that melee basic attacks are NOT avenger attacks, so your Oath of Enmity will not let you roll twice on them. The only exception is if you turn Overwhelming Strike into a melee basic; then you will be able to use your Oath on it, provided that is the only enemy adjacent to you.

[Tokuhara]

This. It sounds ... okay.

You'll want to take take the Swordmage Warding rather than the Avenger's Armor of Faith (both are +3 if memory serves me correctly, but the Swordmage one can be boosted higher). You'll also want Leather Armor proficiency early - so by level 2, with those combined, you can be at 20 AC when most defenders are at 21. That's acceptable. It's light armor, so it's easier to fix in the future.

I can see what Tegu is saying about the Assault Swordmage, and his idea is right in theory, but in practice it wouldn't really work.It's complicated to explain why, but I'll give it a shot.

You'll be able to keep a monster marked. This is the one that you could punish if they violate the mark. The problem? You are also allowed to only have one person designated as your Oath of Enmity. (As an aside: Remember that you can only use the Oath on your Avenger powers as a hybrid.) So, what's going to happen? That monster is going to attack you.

Sounds good, right? Sure - but then you aren't getting any extra attacks. Swordmages actually want the enemy to violate their mark. They mark, move away, and then hope the monster is stupid enough to go after an ally. In this case, they've got a reason not to: You WILL hit them, it'll be hard, and there's a decent chance it will crit. Yeah, uh, no thanks. I'll just attack the Swordmage|Avenger. So it'll stay on you.

As such, it won't trigger your mark and it actually invalidates a lot of your damage. Ah well - at least you'll keep it's attention with your almost defender-level defenses. You've accomplished that, albeit worse than a straight Assault Swordmage would do. However - you will actually be able to do some damage, which is something a typical swordmage isn't very good at, so there is that tradeoff. Your accuracy as a swordmage will be lower (since you are starting with a lower Int), but your Avenger powers will usually be accurate. I say usually, because it's actually a bit more complicated. It'll be tempting to go to the group of monsters and lock them down, but if you do that, you won't be able to use your Oath.

It's not a terrible combination, but it's workable. It'll require a lot of teamwork to bring it up to par with a typical swordmage, but it's doable. Assault Swordmage makes some sense, but you can take feats to improve Shielding if you went that route ... but I still think Assault makes slightly more sense.

So what you're saying is that this is a more Avenger than Swordmage? Reasonable, because if I focus on taking out ranged opponents (Controllers, Artillery, Magic Leaders), I can keep them in my glorious Oath/Mark 1-2 Punch and be "guy with lots of small crits"


MBA means melee basic attack. It's typically strength-based, so with most builds, unless you are Strength-primary or secondary, you won't hit with a melee basic. It's what you do when the monster incurs an opportunity attack or you use your aegis of assault.

Now - there are actually two ways around this with this character and both are feats. First, Intelligent Blademaster. You can use Int for attack and damage with melee basics instead of Strength. Second is to worship a god of knowledge and take a feat which lets you use Overwhelming Strike as a melee basic (best option). You will NEED a good melee basic, and early. A defender without a strong melee basic is not a defender at all. You can't lock anyone down when they can just walk away from you without fear of being hurt.

Do remember that melee basic attacks are NOT avenger attacks, so your Oath of Enmity will not let you roll twice on them. The only exception is if you turn Overwhelming Strike into a melee basic; then you will be able to use your Oath on it, provided that is the only enemy adjacent to you.

Well, I'd booked until 4 (Hybrid Talent: Armor of Faith or Swordmage's Warding and Githzerai Blade Master being 1 & 2), so at 4, I grab Power of Skill (The Overwhelming Strike MBA feat) and single out the caster and beat him retarded with my big ****ing sword

[tcrudisi]

So what you're saying is that this is a more Avenger than Swordmage? Reasonable, because if I focus on taking out ranged opponents (Controllers, Artillery, Magic Leaders), I can keep them in my glorious Oath/Mark 1-2 Punch and be "guy with lots of small crits"

Well, I'd booked until 4 (Hybrid Talent: Armor of Faith or Swordmage's Warding and Githzerai Blade Master being 1 & 2), so at 4, I grab Power of Skill (The Overwhelming Strike MBA feat) and single out the caster and beat him retarded with my big ****ing sword

Yeah, this build is insanely feat starved. Your AC with the Swordmage Warding will be bad. You'll need to add Leather Armor Proficiency quickly. That +2 will push you up higher and get it almost up to where Avengers or Swordmages would be without the hybrid. (I'd like to take a moment to express the stupidity of how a hybrid swordmage|avenger has lower defenses than a single-class swordmage or avenger. :smh:)

The thing is, what does that get you that a normal Avenger wouldn't get? The answer is: Not much. Lower damage (no censure), and less feats for the ability to make an immediate reaction attack if the monster attacks someone else. That's actually a loss. There are other ways to get those immediate action attacks by playing straight avenger and they are less likely to trigger your swordmage aegis attack since they can hit you easier now than if you were a straight avenger.

But the build is acceptable.

[Tokuhara]

Yeah, this build is insanely feat starved. Your AC with the Swordmage Warding will be bad. You'll need to add Leather Armor Proficiency quickly. That +2 will push you up higher and get it almost up to where Avengers or Swordmages would be without the hybrid. (I'd like to take a moment to express the stupidity of how a hybrid swordmage|avenger has lower defenses than a single-class swordmage or avenger. :smh:)

The thing is, what does that get you that a normal Avenger wouldn't get? The answer is: Not much. Lower damage (no censure), and less feats for the ability to make an immediate reaction attack if the monster attacks someone else. That's actually a loss. There are other ways to get those immediate action attacks by playing straight avenger and they are less likely to trigger your swordmage aegis attack since they can hit you easier now than if you were a straight avenger.

But the build is acceptable.

Forgot to mention: Later down the line, I'd be grabbing Unarmored Agility & Versatile Expertise: Heavy Blade (note, still in Heroic) and probably burning my Paragon path for Paragon Hybrid (Avenger's Censure) unless there's a Paragon Path that works better for me.

I see this as a somewhat wizened and agile swordsman with a two-handed sword he swings with lethal precision, combining the faith in Ioun and his comprehension of the Arcane, cutting his foes down to size

[tcrudisi]

Forgot to mention: Later down the line, I'd be grabbing Unarmored Agility & Versatile Expertise: Heavy Blade (note, still in Heroic) and probably burning my Paragon path for Paragon Hybrid (Avenger's Censure) unless there's a Paragon Path that works better for me.

I see this as a somewhat wizened and agile swordsman with a two-handed sword he swings with lethal precision, combining the faith in Ioun and his comprehension of the Arcane, cutting his foes down to size

Versatile Expertise is outdated. You'll want one of the newer ones, depending on your weapon choice.

Unarmored Agility is the same thing as Leather Armor Proficiency. You'll want it at 6, as you've laid out the other options. Expertise is also a mandatory feat, and that will probably come in at 8.

As for paragon path? I have seen ONE build that uses Paragon Hybrid decently. That's it. It is literally the single worst paragon path you can possibly take, bar none. Yes, it is that bad. There are much better options, depending on what you want to do. I'd have to look through the list, but off-hand, Tegu mentioned Gladiator Champion earlier. That's a rock-solid paragon path that would make you a good defender. There's a swordmage pp that likes having a high Wisdom, which you'll have, and rocks. Something like Morninglord would let you vault your damage up higher (much higher than what paragon hybrid would give you). There are a lot of options, but paragon hybrid isn't a viable one. I know we've been saying that hybrids are a bad option, and they are, but paragon hybrid manages to give up even more power. A lot more.

[Tokuhara]

So go Wandering Swordmage, since I'll be likely pumping Int and Wis my whole career? Since I'll be marking just about everything and OoEing the "lynchpin" of an encounter, nobody is safe :smalltongue:

So I am looking at the following:

Githzerai Avenger/Assaulting Swordmage Hybrid -> Wandering Swordmage -> Just About Any Epic Destiny that tickles my fancy

Feats (Up to 16):

1. Hybrid Talent (Armor of Faith)
2. Githzerai Blade Master
4. Power of Skill
6. Unarmored Agility
8. Expertise (Heavy Blade)
10. Battlewise
11. Double Aegis
12. Painful Oath
14. Mark of Warding
16. Danger Sense

Powers (Up to 13):

Utility 1. Overwhelming Strike
Utility 1. Sword Burst
Encounter 1. Blazing Pursuit
Daily 1. Aspect of Might
Utility 2. Distracting Flame
Encounter 3. Fury's Advance
Daily 5. Dimensional Bond
Utility 6. Armanthor's Step
Encounter 7. Echoes of Sword Magic
Daily 9. Blade of Repulsion
Utility 10. Armor of Assault
Encounter 13. Crimson Stride

Any advice beyond this point?

[tcrudisi]

I'll give it more than a cursory glance later (for example, I didn't even look at the powers and while I know Wandering Swordmage is a great PP, I can't remember enough about it to know if it works well with this character).

But - paragon defenses is antiquated. It's +1 to your nads, while Improved Defenses would be +2 to your nads. I don't recognize Shared Danger Sense which is usually a red flag. Mark of Warding is decent, possibly good depending on your power selection, but typically you can do better.

Painful Oath should probably come at 11. Improved Defenses at maybe 10?

Eh, I'll look at it more in-depth later.

[Epinephrine]

Well, you're a long way from a Mul hybrid leader/defender now; if you are liking Swordmage, it could mix well with a warlord (not the damage that the avenger version gets, though); Str/Int is a decent combination for Warlords and Swordmages (Though Genasi and Warforged I think are the only classes with bonuses to both); +3 proficiency weapons make up for slightly lower stats, and you can teleport around punishing foes for hitting your allies, while also throwing heals (2/encounter by paragon) and causing nice pincer attacks, etc. As far as your original leader/defender idea goes, this could work. Can't sketch one out now, but I think it could work well.

[Tokuhara]

Did some revisions. Forgot about Battlewise.

[ChaosRonin]

A really good Swordmage|Defenderlock hybrid would be the Darth Vader Build, been thinking about playing one as my next PC Heres a link to the build (http://community.wizards.com/content/forum-topic/2642456)