undead druid?

[CyberThread]

So we have instances of good aligned undead, holy undead, and that mess.


I would like to ask based on theory, not strict mechanical rules.


If a druid was forced to live in an undead state but not under anyone power betides that, do you think they would still have access to druid magic ?

[SciChronic]

i would say no, undead are in direct conflict with the laws of nature, which druids protect and revere. A druid would probably take their own life upon gaining free will as an undead.

[ArcturusV]

Depends. Druids being divine casters, it seems more based off belief and personal feeling than anything else. I mean on one hand I could have a druid that is very Anti-Fey as they are "The unnatural perversions of the world, magical scourges to claim to be nature's children!" and no one would bat an eye at it. It even makes sense as Druids get some Fey Resistances.

So why should undead really matter? Its not like Druids have such a strict code that they cannot abide the undead at all. I don't even really recall Druids having to say anything about it other than personal beliefs of some NPCs. To some druids Undeath may be part of the cycle of Predator and Prey. Undead being high level predators in the food chain, preyed on by very few, if any.

Taken to a view like that? I'd see no reason why there can't be undead Druids.

In fact I seem to vaguely recall some Published Adventures back in the day that had things like Ghost Druids... but I can't remember what it's from. Just a nagging sense of familiarity.

[Honest Tiefling]

I think it depends. I assume in most worlds, undead are only formed by negative energy, which is for some reason, really bad for the world for whatever reason. Book of Exalted Deeds provided the Deathless, which are positive energy beings, which I assume...Goodify things?

Never been clear on this issue, admittedly, but I would assume that use of undead would be tied to ways to create undead and the campaign setting itself. A shadow world, even, might have natural pockets of negative energy and the undead somewhat natural.

I wanna play a Golgari based druid in DnD for a long time, admittedly.

[Saintheart]

You could argue that positive and negative energy are part of the "natural order" in the sense they balance one another; they even have elemental planes all to themselves. Negative energy of itself ought not to mean a druid automatically hates it and therefore undead; that's like saying a druid who looks after the predators of the earth -- sharks, snakes, etc -- is against nature.

I seem to remember druids of all stripes despise undead, though, on the vague assertion undead are against the "natural order".

If the druid was placed in the undead condition against their volition and subsequently picked up free will, I don't see that the gods would automatically cut off their magic. That sort of consequence is what founds the Blighter (and the Ur-Priest) -- the rejection of nature outright rips druid casting off the Blighter, not their existence as an undead. An undead druid who still honoured nature would be potentially an even more potent defender of the natural order because he can't die.

[Killer Angel]

AH, and here I was, thinking to blighter...



If a druid was forced to live in an undead state but not under anyone power betides that, do you think they would still have access to druid magic ?

The easy answer is: you can, if the DM agrees...

[Perseus]

Two things.

There is nothing in the rules that stop a druid from being undead in 3.5. In 3.0 you needed a feat for wildshaping if you was a druid lich because wildshape wasn't based off the same spell back in those days, however in 3.5 the feat is not needed.

Also in 3.5 there is a enemy created (might be champions of ruin) that is a lich druid that has all the abilities and wildhsape stuff.

Thus being undead in 3.5 d&d has no real effect on the druid outside of roleplaying.

Way to many people bring opinions to a RAW question. :smalltongue:

[MrNobody]

This is totally a personal interpretation of the matter.

I usually distinguish between "created undead" and "natural undead".

Created undead are the ones who are forced to rise by someone's will, using spells like create undead. They're not always slave of who created them but they where not supposed to rise without his intervention.

Natural undead are the ones who rise for "natural causes": ghosts come from their "unsolved business"; lots of undead rise naturally for their behaviour in life (see liber mortis); special condition, like an area of pure evil or one in which flows the energy of the negative energy plane, can bring dead people to rise; finally "create spawn" is the "natural way" by which undead reproduce.

A druid that rise to undeath like a "created undead" would lose it's spell because part of something that went openly against nature. If he rose as a natural undead he would instead retain all his powers. His raising was not forced by magic but happend naturally for one of the causes I explained.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

There's nothing in the rules hindering an undead druid, and in many cases becoming undead could be very fitting for a Druid. A Druid could become a Lich just as easily as a Cleric. You can go Druid 5 into Walker in the Waste without any tricks at all.

Any time an undead druid Wild Shapes he gains Con score, so I believe he would be considered a living creature despite retaining his undead creature type, though he will still retain all of his undead immunities and other special qualities regardless. As an undead creature he's still subject to Turn/Rebuke Undead, and I'd say he would still be healed by Inflict spells, but as a living creature he would also be healed by Cure spells....

[Perseus]

This is totally a personal interpretation of the matter.

I usually distinguish between "created undead" and "natural undead".

Created undead are the ones who are forced to rise by someone's will, using spells like create undead. They're not always slave of who created them but they where not supposed to rise without his intervention.

Natural undead are the ones who rise for "natural causes": ghosts come from their "unsolved business"; lots of undead rise naturally for their behaviour in life (see liber mortis); special condition, like an area of pure evil or one in which flows the energy of the negative energy plane, can bring dead people to rise; finally "create spawn" is the "natural way" by which undead reproduce.

A druid that rise to undeath like a "created undead" would lose it's spell because part of something that went openly against nature. If he rose as a natural undead he would instead retain all his powers. His raising was not forced by magic but happend naturally for one of the causes I explained.

Well that's backwards.

So you are saying the Lich Druid which was made by WoTC doesn't exist?

I can see a unintelligent versus intelligent undead as an argument but ... How does one raise as an undead naturally in D&D?

Creatures (undead) like shadows can do it. Is that any more natural than using a create dead spell?

If the spell gives a unintelligent undead all abilities and such as the corpse had in life then the Druid would have their spell castings and everything. They don't get their spells from gods but nature itself.

If the spell gives unintelligent undead no abilities as they had in life then they are just a zombie or skeleton or whatever.

Using a spell or ritual (necropolitan or lichdom are rituals) then the Druid would (by RAW and wotc example) keep every class feature unless they became not neutral in one aspect or wore metal.

There is nothing that says undead are against nature. Hell there are feats that give the druid the ability to summon/raise shadows.

[Xuldarinar]

Im just going to put this right here.

Libris Mortus, page 25.

Corrupted Wild Shape [Monsterous]
You have learned to use the necromantic energy that powers your under form to overcome the inability of undead creatures to wild shape. You can assume the form of an undead, rotten creature with the use of your wild shape ability.
Prerequisites: Undead type, wild shape class feature.
Benefits: You can use your wild shape ability even though you are undead. The ability functions just as if you were a living creature using the ability with the following exceptions.
You do not gain a Constitution score in the new form, and you retain all the immunities of the undead type while in your new form. The form you assume looks half-decayed, with missing patches of fur and rotted, worm-eaten flesh. While you are in this form, the rank odor of death hangs around you.
Normal: Since it is based on the polymorph spell, wild shape works only on living creatures.

[Perseus]

Im just going to put this right here.

Libris Mortus, page 25.

Corrupted Wild Shape [Monsterous]
You have learned to use the necromantic energy that powers your under form to overcome the inability of undead creatures to wild shape. You can assume the form of an undead, rotten creature with the use of your wild shape ability.
Prerequisites: Undead type, wild shape class feature.
Benefits: You can use your wild shape ability even though you are undead. The ability functions just as if you were a living creature using the ability with the following exceptions.
You do not gain a Constitution score in the new form, and you retain all the immunities of the undead type while in your new form. The form you assume looks half-decayed, with missing patches of fur and rotted, worm-eaten flesh. While you are in this form, the rank odor of death hangs around you.
Normal: Since it is based on the polymorph spell, wild shape works only on living creatures.

I'm pretty sure that is 3.0 and not 3.5.

But hey if its 3.5, hello druid undead :p

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Im just going to put this right here.

Libris Mortus, page 25.

Corrupted Wild Shape [Monsterous]
You have learned to use the necromantic energy that powers your under form to overcome the inability of undead creatures to wild shape. You can assume the form of an undead, rotten creature with the use of your wild shape ability.
Prerequisites: Undead type, wild shape class feature.
Benefits: You can use your wild shape ability even though you are undead. The ability functions just as if you were a living creature using the ability with the following exceptions.
You do not gain a Constitution score in the new form, and you retain all the immunities of the undead type while in your new form. The form you assume looks half-decayed, with missing patches of fur and rotted, worm-eaten flesh. While you are in this form, the rank odor of death hangs around you.
Normal: Since it is based on the polymorph spell, wild shape works only on living creatures.

The current, post-errata wording of Wild Shape (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/druid.htm#wildShape) is not based on polymorph, it mimics Alternate Form (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#alternateForm). That ability is already possessed by plenty of undead creatures, including the core Vampire (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/vampire.htm). Libris Mortis was published in 2004, the Libris Mortis errata is dated 2005, and the PHB errata is dated 2006 (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20040125a). The PHB errata made Corrupted Wild Shape invalid and unnecessary, and the Libris Mortis errata was not updated to reflect this. You can still take Corrupted Wild Shape if you don't want your wild shape forms to have a Con score, but there's really no reason to do that.

[Deaxsa]

The current, post-errata wording of Wild Shape (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/druid.htm#wildShape) is not based on polymorph, it mimics Alternate Form (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#alternateForm). That ability is already possessed by plenty of undead creatures, including the core Vampire (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/vampire.htm). Libris Mortis was published in 2004, the Libris Mortis errata is dated 2005, and the PHB errata is dated 2006 (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20040125a). The PHB errata made Corrupted Wild Shape invalid and unnecessary, and the Libris Mortis errata was not updated to reflect this. You can still take Corrupted Wild Shape if you don't want your wild shape forms to have a Con score, but there's really no reason to do that.

Especially since all it is doing is giving you a bonus to fort saves; you retain the undead type

[Xuldarinar]

The current, post-errata wording of Wild Shape (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/druid.htm#wildShape) is not based on polymorph, it mimics Alternate Form (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#alternateForm).-

From the 3.5 Player's Handbook:


Wild Shape (Su): At 5th level, a druid gains the ability to turn herself into any Small or Medium animal and back again once per day. Her options for new forms include all creatures with the animal type (see the Monster Manual). This ability functions like the polymorph spell, except as noted here.-


Unless the SRD overwrites this automatically, and given that the SRD is "an independent entity and is not affiliated with
Wizards of the Coast, Inc." I do not see how this would overwrite the original wording. If I am wrong, please enlighten me.

[Karnith]

Unless the SRD overwrites this automatically, and given that the SRD is "an independent entity and is not affiliated with
Wizards of the Coast, Inc." I do not see how this would overwrite the original wording. If I am wrong, please enlighten me.
The SRD incorporates errata, which is where Wild Shape was changed (and changed fairly significantly). Per the Player's Handbook errata (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20040125a):

Wild Shape
Player’s Handbook, page 37
Replace sentence 3 of this class feature with the following text:
This ability functions like the alternate form special ability (see the Monster Manual), except as noted here.
Add the following sentence to the end of paragraph 1:
Each time you use wild shape, you regain lost hit points as if you had rested for a night.
Add this new paragraph after the current paragraph 1:
Any gear worn or carried by the druid melds into the new form and becomes nonfunctional. When the druid reverts to her true form, any objects previously melded into the new form reappear in the same location on her body that they previously occupied and are once again functional. Any new items worn in the assumed form fall off and land at the druid's feet.

Generally speaking, when the SRD and your copy of the PHB differ, it's because errata has changed something.

[Xuldarinar]

The SRD incorporates errata, which is where Wild Shape was changed. Per the Player's Handbook errata (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20040125a):

I stand corrected. Thank you.




Alternate Form (Su): A creature with this special quality has the ability to assume one or more specific alternate forms. This ability works much like the polymorph spell, except that the creature is limited to the forms specified, and does not regain any hit points for changing its form.-


I do find it odd that it functions like a spell that cannot change the form of an undead creature, being that they are not living creatures, yet vampires (for example) gain a alternate form.

[ShurikVch]

Eberron have Nightbringers - druid sect, related to Mabar "the Endless Night", which "is a realm of darkness and negative energy." They have access to spell Create Greater Undead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/createGreaterUndead.htm) (shadows only).

Druid Circle theoretically can have "ancient spirit" (ghost druid). Well known fact: it's almost impossible to get rid of ghost. Yes, he must disappear after finishing his business, but what if this task take centuries to finish?

One of Druid's ACFs - Avenger. Avenger is "one who inflicts punishment in return for an injury or offense"(dict.) Who said such punishment can't be inflicted after death? Revenant is all about vengeance. Also, in case of drow druid, possible Keening Spirit.

Fallen druid can rise as Huecuva.

Warhammer Fantasy have Barrow Kings (Tomb Kings offshoot). Their variant of Lich Priest called Druid.

Also, why undead druid must be free-willed?
Say, if druid turned into Bone Creature/Corpse Creature (BoVD), he retain spellcasting/wildshape, but probably controlled by whoever raised him.
Soul Reaper (Dr#312, pg. 34) can have Undead Servitor - Druid.
Mindless undead, after awakening, technically regain spellcasting (not sure about Wild Shape and Animal Companion)
And, of course, druid, in certain circumstance, can be turned into vampire spawn. :durkon:

[Vaz]

The PHB was Errata'd to Alternate Form.

[Xuldarinar]

The PHB was Errata'd to Alternate Form.

Even after that was established. Alternate form still lists polymorph. So, instead of it being wild shape functions as polymorph, wild shape functions as alternate form, which functions as polymorph.

[Karnith]

Even after that was established. Alternate form still lists polymorph. So, instead of it being wild shape functions as polymorph, wild shape functions as alternate form, which functions as polymorph.
I would also suggest reading the entirety of the errata for the main 3 books (or simply reading the SRD) for the purposes of rules discussions, as Alternate Form was errata'd heavily. Per the Monster Manual Errata (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20040125a):

Alternate Form (Page 305)
Make the following changes.
Delete the second sentence of the entry.
Add the following text to the body of the ability description:
A true seeing spell or ability reveals the creature’s natural form. A creature using alternate form reverts to its natural form when killed, but separated body parts retain their shape. A creature cannot use alternate form to take the form of a creature with a template.
Add the following text to Line 1 of the changes:
If the new form has the aquatic subtype, the creature gains that subtype as well.
Replace Line 2 of the changes with the following text:
—The creature loses the natural weapons, natural armor, and movement modes of its original form, as well as any extraordinary special attacks of its original form not derived from class levels (such as the
barbarian’s rage class feature).
Add the following text to the end of Line 6 of the changes:
Apply any changed physical ability score modifiers in all appropriate areas with one exception: the creature retains the hit points of its original form despite any change to its Constitution.
Replace Line 7 of the changes with the following text:
— Except as described elsewhere, the creature retains all other game statistics of its original form, including (but not necessarily limited to) HD, hit points, skill ranks, feats, base attack bonus, and base save bonuses.
Add the following text to the end of the entry.
—Any gear worn or carried by the creature that can’t be worn or carried in its new form instead falls to the ground in its space. If the creature changes size, any gear it wears or carries that can be worn or carried in its
new form changes size to match the new size. (Nonhumanoid-shaped creatures can’t wear armor designed for humanoid-shaped creatures, and viceversa.) Gear returns to normal size if dropped.
Alternate Form is no longer based on Polymorph, as part of WotC's efforts to stop Polymorph from being the end-all, be-all of shapechanging (the Change Shape ability was also errata'd). See e.g. this article (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dd/20060216a) for more details.

[Clistenes]

A Planar Shepherd (Negative Zone or Hades) or a Druid of the Wastelands may keep all their class features and spells, but other Druids would lose them, I think. The Ghostlord, a Human Lich Druid from Red Hand of Doom lost them.

If the Druid became a Huecuva he would keep the spellcasting but lose everything else, I think

[LordBlades]

I would also suggest reading the entirety of the errata for the main 3 books (or simply reading the SRD) for the purposes of rules discussions, as Alternate Form was errata'd heavily. Per the Monster Manual Errata (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20040125a):

Alternate Form is no longer based on Polymorph, as part of WotC's efforts to stop Polymorph from being the end-all, be-all of shapechanging (the Change Shape ability was also errata'd). See e.g. this article (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dd/20060216a) for more details.

Actually, IIRC that errata was mainly due to the fact that they banned polymorph from their Living Greyhawk campaign and didn't want any Wildshape issues as a result.

[Psyren]

Question - with the new wild shape rules, how does Corrupted Wild Shape (LM) work? Do you keep your undead type? Do you even need the feat beyond cosmetics?


Actually, IIRC that errata was mainly due to the fact that they banned polymorph from their Living Greyhawk campaign and didn't want any Wildshape issues as a result.

That's a much more likely explanation, especially given all the headaches they caused by making "polymorph, but not really." :smallsigh:

Pathfinder reconsolidated all the polymorph effects under one umbrella, and thank goodness for that.

[Karnith]

Actually, IIRC that errata was mainly due to the fact that they banned polymorph from their Living Greyhawk campaign and didn't want any Wildshape issues as a result.
Well, that's essentially what I meant/what the article says (I didn't know that it was specifically for a ban in the Living Greyhawk campaign, though). The errata was an attempt to get everything else off of Polymorph and company so that Polymorph could safely be banned in games without too many complications. Before then, there wasn't really a way to use shapechanging magic without polymorph, because everything was based on it.

Question - with the new wild shape rules, how does Corrupted Wild Shape (LM) work? Do you keep your undead type? Do you even need the feat beyond cosmetics?You keep the undead type, but you would without the feat, because Alternate Form doesn't change your type or subtype. Right now, all it does is prevent you from gaining the Constitution score of your new form. Also it makes your wild shaped forms gross.

So not really a good choice of a feat, no.

[Xuldarinar]

Well, that's essentially what I meant/what the article says (I didn't know that it was specifically for a ban in the Living Greyhawk campaign, though). The errata was an attempt to get everything else off of Polymorph and company so that Polymorph could safely be banned in games without too many complications. Before then, there wasn't really a way to use shapechanging magic without polymorph, because everything was based on it.
You keep the undead type, but you would without the feat, because Alternate Form doesn't change your type or subtype. Right now, all it does is prevent you from gaining the Constitution score of your new form. Also it makes your wild shaped forms gross.

So not really a good choice of a feat, no.

Given that undead do not possess Constitution as an ability score, being a non-ability, they really wouldn't gain it anyways. If it's not necissary in order for an undead creature to wildshape the feat purely presents an aspect of appearance.