need to reach bab 21 and con 25

[relytdan]

ok playgrounders , the goal if possible is to reach a base attack bonus of 21 on or before ECL 20 and constitution of 25 by ECL 12 - most books for races are open most templates are open, here is the real trick - though to reach the requested on or before the objective level and use the absolute minimum racial HD and level adjust possible.
now for bonus bab from a couple spells - this we know - ok so that looks doable by ecl 20 - but can it be done without spells..
and there are a few templates that offer huge con bonus (monster of legend LA+7) which certainly help but its a bit steep on the ECL hit so need to do this for less.
for the record the ROLLED stat for Constitution it is a 17 - we need to get 8 more points do not use the ability bonus for level to help get there as defeats the planed characters need of specific ability boosts - thanks

[Namfuak]

Half-minotaur gives you +6 con if you go from medium to large, slap it on a dwarf and there is your +8 con at just LA +1.

As for the BAB, you don't continue to gain base attack bonus at epic levels, 20 is the most you can have without spells. What feat are you trying to get?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Dragonborn Mongrelfolk gets +6 Con for no level adjustment. Start with an 18 and put a point into it at 4th level and you've got 25.

Trying to get a BAB higher than your character level is... not possible via any legitimate means. The most likely means of accomplishing this would be via Leadership for a Bard cohort who continuously uses Inspire Greatness (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/bard.htm#inspireGreatness) on you. Note this Bard will have to be inspiring you non-stop, so he should have a means to not need to eat, drink, or sleep, and immunity to fatigue and exhaustion. However, even though Inspire Greatness grants two temporary hit dice, it does not state that those hit dice grant any type of BAB, instead it grants a competence bonus to attacks. As those hit dice are not called out as any particular type of hit dice, they have no base attack progression associated with them and grant no additional base attack at all. You would most likely also need something akin to Persistent or Continuous Divine Power to make your BAB equal your current hit dice.

[PrinceOfMadness]

Boosting your Con to 25 by level 12 is fairly trivial. Increasing your base attack bonus is....less so. I'm not sure there's any way to do so, barring epic spellcasting or homebrew.

It would really help if we knew why you needed it, as there might be ways around the restrictions. Is it for an epic feat?

EDIT: Missed that there were spells that increase BAB.

[Vaz]

Polymorphing/Metamorphosing into a Least Dusk Giant or a Barghest (requires Assume Supernatural Ability/Metamorphic Transfer) allows you to Cannibalize or Feed which gains you additional HD. Metamorphosis is the class friendliest way of doing it; X 4/Ardent 3 with Practised Manifester nets you ML7 to learn it.

The Constitution is the easiest one; purchasing 3 Wishes (1530gp/casting = 4590gp) on an 8th level Dwarf X5/Ardent 3 with Practised Manifester with 18 Con point buy (18 Base +2 Racial +2 Level) gets you 25 Con.

The thing is, you increase your ECL (Character Level is your HD+LA), and your BAB is tied to your Character level; you get an Epic Attack Bonus, which adds BAB+1 every odd level. Hence, the Dwarf mentioned above would gain Humanoid HD (3/4BAB); giving a BAB of roughly 13 I think at ECL20 assuming 2 classes of 3/4 BAB up to 8th level, and 12 levels of 3/4 BAB from Cannibalize up to ECL20. This would mean that you'd need another 16 HD or so from Cannibalize to make it permanent (losing the Cannibalize ability does not lose the gained HD, but as you no longer have the rule, you don't need to continue feeding), but if you make the X 5 class a Cleric, you can Divine Power away if temporary boosts are allowed to qualify.

[molten_dragon]

There is no legitimate way to get a BAB higher than your level/hit dice.

As for getting the 25 CON, that's easy. Just stack templates. A mineral warrior dragonborn mongrelfolk has a +10 racial bonus to CON at ECL 2.

[molten_dragon]

Polymorphing/Metamorphosing into a Least Dusk Giant or a Barghest (requires Assume Supernatural Ability/Metamorphic Transfer) allows you to Cannibalize or Feed which gains you additional HD. Metamorphosis is the class friendliest way of doing it; X 4/Ardent 3 with Practised Manifester nets you ML7 to learn it.

Yeah, but gaining additional hit dice is going to raise your ECL, which means it's still impossible to get BAB 21 before ECL 20


The Constitution is the easiest one; purchasing 3 Wishes (1530gp/casting = 4590gp) on an 8th level Dwarf X5/Ardent 3 with Practised Manifester with 18 Con point buy (18 Base +2 Racial +2 Level) gets you 25 Con.

You're forgetting the 25,000 gp cost added to each wish for the 5,000 xp that must be spent. So the real cost of getting an NPC to cast 3 wishes for you would be 79,590 gp, which is well beyond the WBL of a level 8 character.

[Humble Master]

25 Con is easy to achieve via templates and such. BaB, not so much. The only ways to get 21+ BaB is via Dusk Giant/Barghest cheese which will probably not go over so well with your DM. What are you trying to achieve with these numbers anyway? It might help if we knew what you needed the 25 Con and 21 BaB for.

[Gemini476]

Getting BAB>HD?

I know of two ways to do that.

The first is Kensai, which can give it's own BAB to others. So -10 to the Kensai and +10 to you. You can also combine it with Warchanter if you want your entire party to have BAB+30, and level drain+restoration the Dragonwraught Kobold to let him take 12 levels of Dragon Ascendant pre-epic and become a quasideity. Yeah.

The other method is, yet again, Dragonwrought. This one doesn't require the interpretation of DW meaning True Dragon, but is even less likely to fly at your table.

Take Dragonblooded Cleric Substitution Level 7. Not 1-7, just seven. As a dragon you autoqualify and ignmore prerequisites. Take the Sorcerer sub level as well and end up with BAB+9 at level two, or BAB+27 at level 20. Yeah.

[Chronos]

Just be Pun-Pun and be done with it. I'm serious: Any way of meeting this challenge will require Pun-Pun levels of cheese, at which point you might as well just go all the way.

Or, if it happens that Pun-Pun is too cheesy for you, accept that BAB 21 pre-epic is also too cheesy for you, and change your goals.

[Gemini476]

Just be Pun-Pun and be done with it. I'm serious: Any way of meeting this challenge will require Pun-Pun levels of cheese, at which point you might as well just go all the way.

Or, if it happens that Pun-Pun is too cheesy for you, accept that BAB 21 pre-epic is also too cheesy for you, and change your goals.

Mineral Warrior Dragonborn Desert Kobold has +6 CON, for 24 at level one. Put a point in CON at level four and hey presto! 25 Constitution.

Grab Dragonwrought at level one and take Dragonblood Sorcerer 7 as your first level. Go Samurai 18 for the rest, so you end up with:
Mineral Warrior LA 1/Dragonblood Sorcerer 7/Samurai 18
With 25 CON and 21 BAB.

This uses precisely one cheesy thing (Dragons auto-qualify for dragonblood stuff, ignoring all other prerequisites) and is hardly even close to Pun-Pun.

Comparing anything to Pun-Pun when the thing in question does not go infinite is not really relevant.



EDIT: Oh wait, rolled stat of 17 and without levelups? Take Dragonblood Cleric 9 instead of the level in Dragonblood Sorcerer, and add on any +3 or less template that gives +2 CON , allows Lawful Good, and doesn't change you from Dragon (although feats come after templates, so...)
Saint might work, although that's a bit tricky with the timing of Acquired Templates and Dragonwrought (since fluff and mechanics conflict).

[OldTrees1]

Divine Power is capped at 20BAB (errata)

Inspire Greatness gives a competence bonus to attack and does not increase BAB.

Instill from Kensai is useable 1/day/kensai and only lasts 1 hour. It would require 24 13th level kensai minions to pull that off.

Warchanter does not increase BAB, but it does have everyone adopt the highest BAB around. If you have a Warchanter (15th level cohort) and an ally with +21BAB then you can have +21BAB if you and the ally remain within 60ft of the cohort at all times.

So if you had a 10th level Warchanter(ECL 15 cohort) and a Solar as a permanent ally(A 44cl casting of Gate will cost you 1K xp and 44K gp and only give you service for 44 days) and both you and the Solar remained within 60ft of the Warchanter, then you can have a +22BAB.

[Eldariel]

Divine Power is capped at 20BAB (errata)

What errata might you be talking about? Certainly not the errata applied to d20srd.

[relytdan]

any low hd & or LA race that could give a +1 base attack bonus would get the bab to 21 at lvl 20 and thus meet the requirement for an epic feat of bab 21 which would benefit the character, as for the con 25 character is going for fast heal feat require con 25.. looking at classes in dragon shaman and crusader for their benefits.

[Urpriest]

any low hd & or LA race that could give a +1 base attack bonus would get the bab to 21 at lvl 20 and thus meet the requirement for an epic feat of bab 21

That's not how races, HD, or LA work. You either know this, in which case I'm not sure what you're doing, or you don't, and probably need to read my Monster Handbook.

[OldTrees1]

What errata might you be talking about? Certainly not the errata applied to d20srd.

I do not personally have the PHB deluxe edition where the errata appears but it did come up in a previous +21BAB conversation:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11198389&postcount=10

[molten_dragon]

I do not personally have the PHB deluxe edition where the errata appears but it did come up in a previous +21BAB conversation:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11198389&postcount=10

I happen to have the deluxe edition sitting next to me, so I checked it. Divine power is indeed capped at +20 BAB.

[Averis Vol]

the only way I know to get BaB that high is through a 3rd party class by green ronin that takes a small hit to con and a huge hit to cha. over the three levels of the class you get five base attack.

[Mithril Leaf]

Mineral Warrior Dragonborn Desert Kobold has +6 CON, for 24 at level one. Put a point in CON at level four and hey presto! 25 Constitution.

Grab Dragonwrought at level one and take Dragonblood Sorcerer 7 as your first level. Go Samurai 18 for the rest, so you end up with:
Mineral Warrior LA 1/Dragonblood Sorcerer 7/Samurai 18
With 25 CON and 21 BAB.

This uses precisely one cheesy thing (Dragons auto-qualify for dragonblood stuff, ignoring all other prerequisites) and is hardly even close to Pun-Pun.

Comparing anything to Pun-Pun when the thing in question does not go infinite is not really relevant.



EDIT: Oh wait, rolled stat of 17 and without levelups? Take Dragonblood Cleric 9 instead of the level in Dragonblood Sorcerer, and add on any +3 or less template that gives +2 CON , allows Lawful Good, and doesn't change you from Dragon (although feats come after templates, so...)
Saint might work, although that's a bit tricky with the timing of Acquired Templates and Dragonwrought (since fluff and mechanics conflict).

Why not Dragonblood Cleric 9 -> Dragonblood Sorcerer 7 -> Full BAB X?

[OldTrees1]

Why not Dragonblood Cleric 9 -> Dragonblood Sorcerer 7 -> Full BAB X?

Please correct me if I am wrong. However I am almost certain that both of those levels increase BAB by 0. (Or +3/4ths and +1/2 if using fractional BAB)

[Douglas]

Please correct me if I am wrong. However I am almost certain that both of those levels increase BAB by 0. (Or +3/4ths and +1/2 if using fractional BAB)
He's using an absurdistly strict RAW reading that says being a true dragon (via dragonwrought) lets him qualify for those without taking cleric levels 1-8 or sorcerer levels 1-6, and that he gets what's in the table for BAB and saves, which is what would normally be the total for 9 levels of cleric and 7 of sorc.

[Worira]

You also can't take epic feats before level 21 anyway, so this is all pretty pointless.

[Karnith]

being a true dragon (via dragonwrought)
You don't need to be a true dragon, actually, just a dragon.

You also can't take epic feats before level 21 anyway, so this is all pretty pointless.
That's also obviated by venerable dragonwrought kobold cheese, actually.

Well, technically it's old or older dragonwrought kobold cheese, but once you're dragonwrought there's no good reason not to go venerable.

[Emperor Tippy]

You also can't take epic feats before level 21 anyway, so this is all pretty pointless.

Yeah you can, in a couple of different ways.

[Gemini476]

Why not Dragonblood Cleric 9 -> Dragonblood Sorcerer 7 -> Full BAB X?

Because then you'll end up with more than 21 BAB at level 20?

Of course, taking Leadership for a Kensai cohort with DBCleric 9/DB Sorc 7/ Warrior 18 will give you 37 BAB at level 20. If you replace Warrior 18 with w/e 8/Warchanter 10, everyone in the party now has 37 BAB.

HOPE YOU LIKE HITTING THINGS

[relytdan]

Dragonblood cleric
must have the dragonblood subtype and be about to take her 1st, 5th, or 9th level of cleric
Dragonblood Cleric Racial Substitution Levels
1st +0; 5th +3; 9th +6/+1

Dragonblood Sorcerer
must have the dragonblood subtype and be about to take his 1st, 4th, or 7th level of sorcerer.
Dragonblood Sorcerer Substitution Levels
1st +0; 4th +2; 7th +3

RACIAL SUBSTITUTION LEVELS
A substitution level is a level of a given class that you take instead of the level described for the standard class
When you take a substitution level for your class at a given level, you give up the standard class features
gained at that level and get the substitution level features instead

So with that covered by RAW fairly well - it clearly does not increase the BAB on the basis of substitution levels alone
unless it can be shown Explicitly [ Source & Page ] where and how it gains additional BAB

the only reliable RAW method that I know of is the Spell Divine Power which is a 4th level cleric spell, Your base attack bonus becomes equal to your character level (which may give you additional attacks)

<< Now after extensive research into the various sources rules errata ect.. this spell as well as all references of base attack bonus have not been updated beyond Core- nothing any source that I have looked into indicated a maximum of 20 for the base attack bonus at any level and even in EPIC it does not claim any levels it mearly states that every so many levels gain an additional +X to base attack bonus>>

Unless someone here can shown Explicitly [ Source & Page ] where base attack bonus is maximized at 20 - and no for this purpose class levels wont do as the base attack bonus listed for multi-classing makes that argument void.

Then I would read the above spell to do the following by RAW ( character level of ??<10> Base attack bonus =10, then Class level Base attack Bonus would stack ontop ( as per multiclassing and racial stacking rules ) - the number of attacks will however maximize at 4 attacks at that is clearly written for base attack bonuses.

Any other Ideas on how to get Base attack bonus at or above 21 on or before level 20 by RAW/RAI

[OldTrees1]

@relytdan
Order of operations is important

A Fighter 2/Cleric 7 has a BAB of +7.
If the Fighter/Cleric casts Divine Power then "Yourtheir base attack bonus becomes equal to yourtheir character level".

So the BAB was +0(racial)+2(fighter)+5(cleric)+7 but was replaced ("becomes") with +9.

See level bonuses to physical stats and polymorph. "The subject gains the Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores of the new form"

Now I can prove BAB is not capped at +20. Solars (MM) have +22 BAB.
However they break +20BAB by having 22 Outsider Hit Dice. So once again we are back to the 24(1 hour duration) Kensai minions or a Warchanter minion and a Solar minion if we want it before ECL21.

Quick question: Why do you want +21 BAB and 25 Con? I do not recognize the Feat/Prestige class by those prerequisites.

[relytdan]

Tenser’s Transformation
Your base attack bonus equals your character level (which may give you multiple attacks).

vs.

Divine Power
Your base attack bonus becomes equal to your character level (which may give you additional attacks)

(both in PHB)

note the subtle difference in wording -tenser's is more like the example given by OldTrees1 -
Order of operations
I will grant that all racial Base attack happen first - hense the attempt to find a race/template that offeres athe highest base attack for the lowest hd and or LA. preferably 0 - difficult I know.

as for class operations multiclass - yes the bab from classes all add to form the combined Class BAB

in the case of divine power it states the the base attack bonus becomes equal to the character level - which is not the same as Class level and thus some form of separation happens here from them we have a character BAB and a Class BAB order of Operations which should add together.

Wield Oversized Weapon ( Complete Warrior, p. 153) requires the BAB 21
and Fast healing - which has been solved requires Con 25

[Urpriest]

Wield Oversized Weapon ( Complete Warrior, p. 153) requires the BAB 21
and Fast healing - which has been solved requires Con 25

You have no reason to take Wield Oversized Weapon, though, so the point is moot.

[relytdan]

You have no reason to take Wield Oversized Weapon, though, so the point is moot.

I don't - really who are you to say what I do and do not have a reason for - I guess this thread is Done ! -

End of Line-

[Xerlith]

It's simple. The feat gives you literally no benefit for the level you gain it at.
Also, who is he? Urpriest. :smallbiggrin:

[Vertharrad]

Tenser’s Transformation
Your base attack bonus equals your character level (which may give you multiple attacks).

vs.

Divine Power
Your base attack bonus becomes equal to your character level (which may give you additional attacks)

(both in PHB)

note the subtle difference in wording -tenser's is more like the example given by OldTrees1 -
Order of operations
I will grant that all racial Base attack happen first - hense the attempt to find a race/template that offeres athe highest base attack for the lowest hd and or LA. preferably 0 - difficult I know.

as for class operations multiclass - yes the bab from classes all add to form the combined Class BAB

in the case of divine power it states the the base attack bonus becomes equal to the character level - which is not the same as Class level and thus some form of separation happens here from them we have a character BAB and a Class BAB order of Operations which should add together.

Wield Oversized Weapon ( Complete Warrior, p. 153) requires the BAB 21
and Fast healing - which has been solved requires Con 25

Both of these do the same thing...just one uses 1 more word to represent it. If your character level is 10 both makes your bab +10, if your character level is 18 both makes your bab +18; the important words to consider is character level. One more word doesn't change that. And I have the special edition PHB...anything printed in the special editions was errata as stated by the note with the books. Even without the special edition versions none of my groups ever let Divine Power go above +20 because in epics the rules change and that would go for everything, it makes no sense for a 25th level martial character to have bab +23 while the 25th level cleric gets bab +25 from a spell...

[Frog Dragon]

You could probably get roughly the same effect as Wield Oversized Weapon with Strongarm Bracers. And in that case you wouldn't be using dubious cheese to gain an ability that isn't very good in the first place.

[TroubleBrewing]

You could probably get roughly the same effect as Wield Oversized Weapon with Strongarm Bracers. And in that case you wouldn't be using dubious cheese to gain an ability that isn't very good in the first place.

Yeah... If you're going to all this trouble for Wield Oversized Weapon, it's not worth it.

Strongarm Bracers are 6,000gp and grant the exact same benefit, without requiring Monkey Grip, which does not do what you think it does.

[animewatcha]

I posted a class level based combo ( of psychic warrior and tash monk ) somewhere on the board that took advantage of this prestige class. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20020927b

Using the favorable stacking rules and divine power.. by level 20. One can have a bab of '23' for unarmed strikes. Where was that bit on multiple attacks stopping at bab 20 for before epic levels? Depending upon the wording, a fifth attack might be allowed.

[Vertharrad]

In the ELH. And might even be in the 3.5DMG epic section. Thats a 3.0 PrC and it still doesn't allow you to gain above your level in bab, your misinterpreting how to use that particularly needlessly complex ability. DP replaces/recalculates your bab it doesn't stack with it.

[Karnith]

Using the favorable stacking rules and divine power.. by level 20. One can have a bab of '23' for unarmed strikes. Where was that bit on multiple attacks stopping at bab 20 for before epic levels? Depending upon the wording, a fifth attack might be allowed.
It's in the rules for BAB (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatStatistics.htm#baseAttackBonus). There isn't some formula for getting extra iteratives, you simply get them at BAB +6, +11, and +16. You never get more iterative attacks from having a base attack bonus above BAB +16.

[Urpriest]

I posted a class level based combo ( of psychic warrior and tash monk ) somewhere on the board that took advantage of this prestige class. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20020927b

Using the favorable stacking rules and divine power.. by level 20. One can have a bab of '23' for unarmed strikes. Where was that bit on multiple attacks stopping at bab 20 for before epic levels? Depending upon the wording, a fifth attack might be allowed.

That doesn't work. It's a 3.0 source, so you have to adapt the "Unarmed BAB" into Flurry progression, just like you do with any other 3.0 Monk PrC.

[Chronos]

There is no rule anywhere that can be interpreted in any way to say that a BAB of 21 gives 5 attacks. The rule for iterative attacks is not given by a formula, but by specifics: If you have 6+, you get two attacks; at 11+, you get three, and at 16+, you get four. 23 is still 16+.

[Fyermind]

There is no legitimate way to get a BAB higher than your level/hit dice.


I am sorry to quote this at you specifically, you just said it better than anyone one else.

The above statement is wrong. Warsinger from Complete warrior at level 10 has the ability to give every ally within range the BAB of the highest BAB possessed by an ally within range (or the character level of the Warsinger). Since there is no limit on the HD of your allies listed, you just need a very high HD ally and a level 13 Bard 3 / Warsinger 10 who was friends with a bard capable of boosting his HD by 2 via inspire greatness when he qualified for warsinger.

Short answer yes you can get your BAB that high. Long answer, there better be a REALLY good reason.

[animewatcha]

That doesn't work. It's a 3.0 source, so you have to adapt the "Unarmed BAB" into Flurry progression, just like you do with any other 3.0 Monk PrC.

I understand 3.0 has adaptions to make into 3.5 for certain things. Where is the apapting the unarmed bab part though? As gotta deal with similar thing with acolyte of the fist ( specifically says extra attacks at the -3 marker ).

@others: Can see what you are saying if the class itself didn't gain two styles of bab to use and then you got the favorable stacking to most beneficial thing.

[Urpriest]

I understand 3.0 has adaptions to make into 3.5 for certain things. Where is the apapting the unarmed bab part though? As gotta deal with similar thing with acolyte of the fist ( specifically says extra attacks at the -3 marker ).

In the Monk class. Since Monk was changed, you have to change everything that references or mimics the Monk rules.

[animewatcha]

Opened player's handbook and didn't see a mention of any mention of 3.0 thing, I can see how flurry is done in like the chart and stuff as well as how bab is supposed to work. I am talking about the specific unarmed bab bonus thing that diamond warrior gets.

[Urpriest]

Opened player's handbook and didn't see a mention of any mention of 3.0 thing, I can see how flurry is done in like the chart and stuff as well as how bab is supposed to work. I am talking about the specific unarmed bab bonus thing that diamond warrior gets.

What I'm saying is that that is how Monk worked in 3.0. Monk had a special flurry BAB, and PrCs could add to that. Now Monk just gets extra attacks and takes penalties.

Special flurry BAB like you are describing is how every Monk PrC in OA worked, and they were all updated in Dragon to not work that way.

[Alabenson]

Yeah you can, in a couple of different ways.

To rephrase what Worira said:
You can't take epic feats prior to level 21 without employing tricks that many DMs would consider serious cheese.

It doesn't do the OP any good, for example, to suggest using a venerable Dragonwrought Kobold if the DM has ruled that DW Kobolds are not actually True Dragons.

[Karnith]

It doesn't do the OP any good, for example, to suggest using a venerable Dragonwrought Kobold if the DM has ruled that DW Kobolds are not actually True Dragons.
Nitpick: Dragonwrought Kobolds don't need to be True Dragons to select epic feats. They simply need to be dragons, and old or older, which Venerable DWKs fulfill pretty clearly.

Still cheesy, but it's pretty solid, RAW-wise.

[animewatcha]

What I'm saying is that that is how Monk worked in 3.0. Monk had a special flurry BAB, and PrCs could add to that. Now Monk just gets extra attacks and takes penalties.



Looking at player's handbook 3.0 now. How would prestige classes work with 3.0 thing like that ( got a 3.0 book example that has the funky monk language like in we see in 3.5 monkish PrCs? )? Or heck. dragon magazine article from 3.0. The diamond warrior thing ( nearly effective ) gave you full bab if you used unarmed strikes.

[Alabenson]

Nitpick: Dragonwrought Kobolds don't need to be True Dragons to select epic feats. They simply need to be dragons, and old or older, which Venerable DWKs fulfill pretty clearly.

Still cheesy, but it's pretty solid, RAW-wise.

Yeah...that would still get a DM's Guide lobbed at you at any table I've ever played at.

My point was that, RAW loophole abuse notwithstanding, there isn't a way to get epic feats at pre-epic levels that would likely survive the DM. All you'd likely accomplish is that the DM would add another line to his list of houserules.

[animewatcha]

Yes there is...bribery.

[Urpriest]

Looking at player's handbook 3.0 now. How would prestige classes work with 3.0 thing like that ( got a 3.0 book example that has the funky monk language like in we see in 3.5 monkish PrCs? )? Or heck. dragon magazine article from 3.0. The diamond warrior thing ( nearly effective ) gave you full bab if you used unarmed strikes.

Oh I see, I had misread how the Diamond Warrior worked and thought it worked like the old Monk PrCs. That's a rather different setup, yes. I still would argue that one of the design principles of the 3.0 to 3.5 transition was "don't screw with how BAB works", but since there is no direct analogue the proper adaptation is not as unambiguous.

[animewatcha]

The 'don't screw with how BAB works' got screwed over when the question of how to get more than 20 BAB before epic was asked.

[Vertharrad]

animewatcha - Look at the Diamond Warrior example of that ability...the bab NEVER exceeded the character level. So no your using that PrC still won't get you +21 bab before epic levels. Doesn't matter that the question was asked the answer is still the same...you need epic levels to get +21 or higher bab.

Fyermind - a brd3 doesn't meet the prereqs for Warchanter you need minimum brd 6. Now your right about the ability...you'll need an epic character around to help give the bab and that ability would need to be always active to give someone the benefit.

Pre-epic there is no way to get +21 bab...period, even Dwk won't give you the bab.

[Gemini476]

animewatcha - Look at the Diamond Warrior example of that ability...the bab NEVER exceeded the character level. So no your using that PrC still won't get you +21 bab before epic levels. Doesn't matter that the question was asked the answer is still the same...you need epic levels to get +21 or higher bab.

Fyermind - a brd3 doesn't meet the prereqs for Warchanter you need minimum brd 6. Now your right about the ability...you'll need an epic character around to help give the bab and that ability would need to be always active to give someone the benefit.

Pre-epic there is no way to get +21 bab...period, even Dwk won't give you the bab.

...Dragons (not even true dragons!) taking Dragonblood substitution levels. One of the requirements is being about to take, for instance, the 9th level of Cleric... And Dragons ignore prerequisites for things that require the Dragonblood subtype. You can even be an actual wyrmling dragon if dragonwrought bothers you that much, since a dragon with ECL5 can take DB Sorc 7 and DB Clr 9 for +9BAB at ECL 7. And that's without LA Buyoff.

Or, if the sidebar about Dragons and Dragonblood prerequisites bothers you that much, have a Kensai give it to you temporarily. If you get level drained and Restorationed, you can repick feats and levels... With +10BAB. You can't use the feats while you aren't powered up by the Kensai, but you don't lose 'em, either. That's the basis of the Believe In Me Who Believes In You trick, where you get a Warchanter and boost a DWKobold into Divine Rank 0. For the duration of the Kensai's ability or forever, depending on your view of the rules in CW about PrC prerequisites.

[Chronos]

So, say you have a dragonwrought kobold character, and in the middle of a fight, you realize you need some healing ability. Can you just grab the dragonblood cleric substitution level in the middle of the fight? Sure, you don't meet the prerequisite of "enough XP to gain a level", but you can just ignore that, after all.

[animewatcha]

animewatcha - Look at the Diamond Warrior example of that ability...the bab NEVER exceeded the character level. So no your using that PrC still won't get you +21 bab before epic levels. Doesn't matter that the question was asked the answer is still the same...you need epic levels to get +21 or higher bab.

Fyermind - a brd3 doesn't meet the prereqs for Warchanter you need minimum brd 6. Now your right about the ability...you'll need an epic character around to help give the bab and that ability would need to be always active to give someone the benefit.

Pre-epic there is no way to get +21 bab...period, even Dwk won't give you the bab.

Diamond warrior example with a medium bab class coming before ( psychic warrior since you need psychic warrior 3rd level power and a few psionic feats before it ). Normal bab progression of the prestige class itself being medium. Example also using only class levels and certain specific weapon ( unarmed strike versus everything else ). Never any mention of specific circumstances ( granted this PrC is 3.0 ) of spells and different people abilities ( besides those specific instances of unarmed strike versus any other weapon ) that mess with BAB.

Sorry, your point is going closer and closer toward only seeing what you want to see instead of taking in other people's points.

@Chronos: Sounds like another entry for the Dysfunctional Handbook.

[Carth]

For what it's worth:


BEHIND THE CURTAIN: A LIMIT TO ATTACKS AND SAVES
Why don’t base attack bonus and base save bonus increase
after 20th level? Ultimately, these are game play issues.
If base attack bonuses continued to increase, every character would eventually have so many attacks per round that the
game would slow to a crawl. What’s worse, only the first few
attacks would be significant, because the drop-off in attack
bonuses means that later attacks have almost no chance to
hit. For this reason, the rules establish a cap on a character’s
base attack bonus, because the base attack bonus determines
the number of attacks per round a character can make. After
20th level, your base attack bonus never improves. You gain
epic and other bonuses to your attack roll, but these don’t ever
increase your base attack bonus and thus never grant you
additional attacks.
This limit doesn’t apply to the base attack bonus derived
strictly from a monster’s Hit Dice. For instance, a titan with 21
HD using the monster advancement rules in the Monster
Manualhas a base attack bonus of +21. Thus, another cap
exists: A high base attack bonus never grants a creature more
than four attacks with any given weapon using the full attack
option. Other effects (such as haste, certain feats, and class
abilities such as the monk’s special unarmed attack progression) may grant additional actions or attacks that exceed this
limit. But regardless of how high a creature’s base attack
bonus gets, it can never make more than four attacks with that
weapon using a full attack action.
The limit to the base saving throw bonuses is also a game
play issue. Because saving throw bonuses progress at different
rates (“higher” versus “lower” saves), the difference between a
character’s base save bonuses will eventually grow so great
that two different situations with the same save DC would
present two threats of wildly differing magnitude. The difference between the higher and lower saving throw bonuses for a
60th-level character, for example, is 12 points (+32 versus +20).
Add in the bonuses from high ability scores and magic items
that a character probably has, and you can expect the gap to
widen further. This leads to situations where a character might
succeed at a given Fortitude save with a die roll of 2 or higher,
but might require a roll of 20 to succeed at a Reflex save
against the same DC. For this reason, base save bonuses don’t
increase after 20th level, although the epic save bonus
increases at a fixed rate for all epic characters.

[Tim Proctor]

Warforged Living Construct can get 22 BAB at 20 ECL.

Lycanthrope can get you 21 BAB at 20 ECL also.

Base Attack Bonus is the base creature’s BAB + the base animal’s BAB.

CR set by base animal’s HD: up to 2 HD - +2 CR.
A Dire Ape for example (I didn't look at all the animals), has a BAB 3 so you'd add 3 BAB for a 2 level adjustment.

Skeleton/Zombie templates can do that also as it severely hinders your ECL drops it by over half but only halves your BAB.

Titanic template works also as it gives +18 BAB and a ECL of +13

Those are the easiest least likely to get a DM to throw a book at you, and some elder dragons too.

[Karnith]

Warforged Living Construct can get 22 BAB at 20 ECL.I'm not sure what you're talking about; would you mind explaining? I suspect that you're talking about Incarnate Construct, but I want to be sure.

Also, Incarnate Construct Warforged to get free levels is at least as cheesy as DWK shenanigans.

Lycanthrope can get you 21 BAB at 20 ECL also.

A Dire Ape for example (I didn't look at all the animals), has a BAB 3 so you'd add 3 BAB for a 2 level adjustment.No, that doesn't work, because as a lycanthrope you get the animal's HD added to your own in addition to the template's level adjustment, both of which increase your ECL. A Were-Dire-Ape, for instance, would add 5 HD and a LA of +2 or +3, depending on whether the character in question is a natural or afflicted lycanthrope.

Skeleton/Zombie templates can do that also as it severely hinders your ECL drops it by over half but only halves your BAB.That doesn't work either, because Skeletons and Zombies have Int: - and LA: -, and hence are not playable. And even if they were, they strip you of all your class levels and leave you with crappy Undead HD.

Titanic template works also as it gives +18 BAB and a ECL of +13The Titanic template doesn't have a listed Level Adjustment, only affects animals and vermin (of which I believe there is a single creature with a printed level adjustment, thanks to poor editing), and increases the base creature's HD to 25, which would put it into the Epic range even if it was usable by PCs.

[Gazzien]

BAB: Use a Fighter 8/Kensai (http://dndtools.eu/classes/kensai/) 10 cohort (honestly only needs to be Kensai 8 anywhere in there), get them to Instill you. Bam, +10 BAB.

Actually, go full-bab 4 / Legacy Champion (http://dndtools.eu/classes/legacy-champion/) 1 / Kensai 10 / Legacy Champion 3 for +13 BAB for one hour per day. Give them a use-activated item of Body Outside Body, and do it multiple times per hour for a constant effect. It's also (Ex) so it doesn't go away in an antimagic field / dead magic zone.

[Gemini476]

So, say you have a dragonwrought kobold character, and in the middle of a fight, you realize you need some healing ability. Can you just grab the dragonblood cleric substitution level in the middle of the fight? Sure, you don't meet the prerequisite of "enough XP to gain a level", but you can just ignore that, after all.

Nope. You can only level up when you level up (although you can gain levels through regaining XP, Restoration, Acquired Hit Dice, etc). However, these are the requirements for taking the relevant levels:

Requirements
To take a dragonblood cleric substitution level, a character
must have the dragonblood subtype and be about to take
her 1st, 5th, or 9th level of cleric.

Requirements
To take a dragonblood sorcerer substitution level, a character must have the dragonblood subtype and be about to
take his 1st, 4th, or 7th level of sorcerer.

Also from Races of the Dragon, where they introduce the Dragonblood subtype:

Dragons automatically qualify for any classes, prestige classes,
racial substitution levels, feats, powers, or spells that require
the dragonblood subtype. Races presented in this book that
have the dragonblood subtype include dragonborn, spellscale,
kobold, and draconic creatures. Should a creature acquire the
dragon type, it loses the dragonblood subtype.

Note that you only get the BAB and Saves of that level (as well as any Class Features gained on that level). You do not get the spells of a 9th level cleric by taking the substitution level, since it just refers you to the table for the Cleric. So you get anything that is reprinted (+6/+1 BAB, +6 Fort, +3 Ref, +6 Will) but not anything that wasn't reprinted. Yeah. It's complicated because the rules were honestly not meant to work this way.

Note that if you use the Partial BAB or Partial Save variants then you don't get any particular benefit from this, since those rules use a formula rather than a table.

[Vertharrad]

And all of you advocating Kensai...even though there's no limit on how much you can allocate once that hour is up and the bonus is gone the ally loses use of the feat that requires the epic bab. How many groups have you played in with a Warchanter and Kensai high enough to do this where the Kensai always did this?

Also free levels of classes don't include bab or save bonuses unless indicated specifically.

[Chronos]

Tim Proctor, I think you might be confusing ECL with Challenge Rating. ECL is relevant only to PCs, and CR is relevant only to NPCs (and to Truenamers). Plenty of monsters have BAB higher than their CR, but it's still lower than their ECL.

[JaronK]

Stuff about kobolds

This is all correct. Cheesy as hell, but correct. But since the OP wants early epic feats and BAB above his HD, we already knew that any answer to that question would be cheesy as hell, and that any correct answer would be something that a DM should probably ban anyway.

So yes, the answer is to be a Dragonwrought Kobold (True Dragon doesn't matter here, only the Dragon type) DB Sorcerer 7/DB Cleric 9 (just those two levels) along with a bunch of full BAB stuff. That puts you at 7BAB over your HD, enough to have 21 BAB at level 14.

Cheesy? Of course. Rules loophole exploit? Of course, because you're never supposed to go above your HD in BAB anyway. Legal? Yup.

JaronK

[animewatcha]

And all of you advocating Kensai...even though there's no limit on how much you can allocate once that hour is up and the bonus is gone the ally loses use of the feat that requires the epic bab. How many groups have you played in with a Warchanter and Kensai high enough to do this where the Kensai always did this?

Also free levels of classes don't include bab or save bonuses unless indicated specifically.

Second part is already covered by other people in regards to proving that wrong. First part, doesn't matter so much as what is important is that they make it possible to have bab of atleast 20 before epic. So it is possible to have have more bab than your level.......period.

[Vertharrad]

Second part is already covered by other people in regards to proving that wrong. First part, doesn't matter so much as what is important is that they make it possible to have bab of atleast 20 before epic. So it is possible to have have more bab than your level.......period.

Still not going to be worth it inorder to get a epic feat you'll only be able to use for 1 hour...

[OldTrees1]

Still not going to be worth it inorder to get a epic feat you'll only be able to use for 1 hour...

The Warchanter extends the Kensai's duration.

The Kensai(min level 13) makes you have >20BAB
The Warchanter (min level 15) inspires legion to give everyone >20BAB (it uses the highest BAB at the beginning of the song) until they stop singing

If you are the Warchanter then you can reach +22(+23) BAB at 15th level with a Kensai cohort(Improved Cohort).

[Fyermind]

Fyermind - a brd3 doesn't meet the prereqs for Warchanter you need minimum brd 6. Now your right about the ability...you'll need an epic character around to help give the bab and that ability would need to be always active to give someone the benefit.


Actually bard 2 can qualify with flaws, it just needs 4 feats in two levels which is ugly. (the four feats being Favored, Primary contact, Combat expertise, and weapon focus) This allows for the required 6 ranks in perform and the feat prerequisites. The base attack bonus prerequisite comes from extra granted HD from a bard using inspire courage or a kensai boosting your BAB or a warchanter giving you the BAB of someone of BAB +4 or higher. You have to be non-lawful too. You need someone boosting your BAB at level 1 as well to select weapon focus as a feat.

I suggested Bard 3 as an entry point because flaws are not something you can assume and if you get them there are better things to do with them than take favored and primary contact for a bonus skill rank and a +1 to your maximum ranks.

Next off, you don't need an epic character anywhere in the equation. Summon monster IX can summon a colossal monstrous spider with BAB 24. Monsters summoned by allies should count as allies.

I would not try any of this in a normal game. In a normal game I would not be trying to reach BAB 21 before level 21. You asked. The answer is going to assume you are okay with early entry tricks since getting a BAB higher than your character level is at it's heart and early entry trick.

as a fun side note, you can get up to +6 HD from inspire greatness (words of creation stacking with song of the heart) (there may be more bonuses you can get. please let me know if there are. I love bards). If this fiendish monstrous spider with extra HD (total HD 38) performs a ritual killing as per BoVD sacrifice rules and then dedicates it's kill to getting divine power for 24 hours, it could have BAB 38. This is totally doable with a +30 custom item or an exemplar boosting his check any of many spells boosting the check.

If we add a kensai boosting the BAB of the Fiendish Monstrous Spider by 13, we get a total BAB of 51. I challenge you guys to get a team of any number of level 19 characters to BAB 52. (Note the part of Pun-Pun that does this does increase ECL, and thus breaks the level 19 character clause)

[OldTrees1]

@Fyermind
Inspire greatness does not mention BAB and HD do not automatically provide BAB (see +0BAB classes like WarHulk).

Thus the only way to qualify for Warchanter before +4BAB is by having a higher level Warchanter ally. This is less reasonable an assumption than assuming flaws. (Since you did not feel confident to assume flaws, don't assume a higher powered ally)

In general you are skipping over how you are obtaining these allies (Kensai, Warchanter, Summoner and Exemplar). Leadership+Undead Leadership only gives you 2 Cohorts.

While the method I posted merely gets +23 BAB at 15th level, it observes the rules for acquiring allies.

[Vertharrad]

Okay so now you have 2 bards in a party calling attention to themselves by performing constantly...all day. People grow a life. Besides you can't take epic feats or epic PrC's(11th lvl of PrC's either) pre-epic...says so in the epic rules, you need to be minimum 21st lvl or ECL.

ELH and DMG pg. 209 - The following feats are available only to epic characters. I guess Dwk could get around the 21st lvl...but I don't see how. and without that amount of HD or ECL even they need to make at least 21st lvl.

So beyond being able to hit better why all the effort?

[JaronK]

Okay so now you have 2 bards in a party calling attention to themselves by performing constantly...all day. People grow a life.

Necropolitan Bard? He'll play all day no problem!


Besides you can't take epic feats or epic PrC's(11th lvl of PrC's either) pre-epic...says so in the epic rules, you need to be minimum 21st lvl or ECL.

Unless you're a Dragonwrought Kobold, since old or older dragons bypass that restriction.

JaronK

[Urpriest]

So beyond being able to hit better why all the effort?

JaronK answered your other questions. As to "why the effort", feats in general are supposed to pretty dramatically expand a character's capabilities, with epic feats in particular serving to give capabilities to mundanes that are relevant at epic level when the casters are running around being epic level casters.

Presumably the OP's DM has rewritten the epic martial feats around that level of power, because he wouldn't have asked for help accomplishing something highly cheesy to obtain a feat that just increases damage by a tiny amount and has no fluff implications.

[Segev]

Okay, I've looked over this thread again, just to be sure, but if it's here, I'm not seeing it. Did we ever find out WHY the OP wants BAB 21 and Con 25, particularly before ECL 20?

[Urpriest]

Okay, I've looked over this thread again, just to be sure, but if it's here, I'm not seeing it. Did we ever find out WHY the OP wants BAB 21 and Con 25, particularly before ECL 20?

Con 25 is to get fast healing, for...some reason.

BAB 21 is for Wield Oversized Weapon, which lets you wield weapons as if they were one size smaller. I don't know why the OP wanted that, but as I speculated earlier presumably the feat is being houseruled to do something worthwhile, since nobody would care so much about it in its current form.

[Eldariel]

Con 25 is to get fast healing, for...some reason.

BAB 21 is for Wield Oversized Weapon, which lets you wield weapons as if they were one size smaller. I don't know why the OP wanted that, but as I speculated earlier presumably the feat is being houseruled to do something worthwhile, since nobody would care so much about it in its current form.

Maybe he found a massively powerful Huge artifact weapon that he wants to wield?

[JaronK]

If the goal is just to wield a big weapon, the Dragonwrought Kobold thing won't help... they're small. How about a Major Titan Bloodline? They get the ability to wield Gargantuan Warhammers at around level 15 or so. And you can be any size you want. But only Warhammers.

JaronK

[Fax Celestis]

If the goal is just to wield a big weapon, the Dragonwrought Kobold thing won't help... they're small. How about a Major Titan Bloodline? They get the ability to wield Gargantuan Warhammers at around level 15 or so. And you can be any size you want. But only Warhammers.

JaronK

Hey, look, it's another thing aptitude weapons can mutilate.

[Fyermind]

@Fyermind
Inspire greatness does not mention BAB and HD do not automatically provide BAB (see +0BAB classes like WarHulk).

Thus the only way to qualify for Warchanter before +4BAB is by having a higher level Warchanter ally. This is less reasonable an assumption than assuming flaws. (Since you did not feel confident to assume flaws, don't assume a higher powered ally)

In general you are skipping over how you are obtaining these allies (Kensai, Warchanter, Summoner and Exemplar). Leadership+Undead Leadership only gives you 2 Cohorts.

While the method I posted merely gets +23 BAB at 15th level, it observes the rules for acquiring allies.

Good call on inspire greatness. I'll have to keep looking to figure out where that came from in my head. Anyway, so you need another warchanter as an ally. That's fine. As a fun note many character has friends and allies more powerful than themselves. the bard won't benefit from his warchanter abilities when he doesn't meet the prerequisites, but that's fine. So he will be you bog standard sucky bard until he reaches level 5 and meets all the prerequisites on his own. Meanwhile in order to level up, he has to return to his mentor. Seems reasonable for an NPC, or like a nice challenge for a PC to find such a mentor. But this isn't supposed to be a PC. This is someone we are going to get with leadership or rebuke undead or something. That's much easier. We get them from being a baby and build them in our image under out control. Psychic reformation at level 1 on the bard when you have the warchanter around lets it pick the right feats.

I tend to get my allies through role playing and spells and class abilities or because we have a party of characters. I am willing to assuming a member of the party willing to purchase or wish for a few scrolls of mindrape and use it in the worst case.

[Segev]

Well, if you could find a way to get that colossal monstrous spider to cast Divine Power or Tenser's Transformation, its BAB would go up to +32...or +38, if you had Inspire Greatness adding +6 HD.

[animewatcha]

Still not going to be worth it inorder to get a epic feat you'll only be able to use for 1 hour...

Time it right or some kind of shenanigans to get more than one 8 hour rest in a day. Stuff like that. What matters is that you can still get it.

As far as requirements for epic feats. There are ways around it. Properly worded Wish ( More TO and DM book-flying, but possible ), Properly done Faustian Pact I believe it was from fiendish codex ( deal with a devil for bonus feat ), Martial Monk, DWK.

As far as being worth it goes, 2 levels of martial monk and I get to be immune to anything requiring a ranged attack roll ( touch or not ) through Exception Deflection and Infinite Deflection. Or heck, 1 level of Martial Monk to pick up Perfect Two Weapon Fighting.

[JaronK]

As far as being worth it goes, 2 levels of martial monk and I get to be immune to anything requiring a ranged attack roll ( touch or not ) through Exception Deflection and Infinite Deflection. Or heck, 1 level of Martial Monk to pick up Perfect Two Weapon Fighting.

Those are Epic Fighter Bonus Feats, not Fighter Bonus Feats. Martial Monk can't have them, as it's a different list of feats to chose from. Best you can do with Martial Monk is Weapon Supremacy.

And... damnit aptitude. Damnit.

JaronK

[Turion]

Hey, look, it's another thing aptitude weapons can mutilate.

'fraid not. Aptitude only functions with feats. PrCs, bloodlines, class features, racial abilities, spells (aside from Heroics), etc... won't proc the ability, IIRC.

[animewatcha]

Those are Epic Fighter Bonus Feats, not Fighter Bonus Feats. Martial Monk can't have them, as it's a different list of feats to chose from. Best you can do with Martial Monk is Weapon Supremacy.

And... damnit aptitude. Damnit.

JaronK

Logical, but subject to interpretation. People at Paizo probably meant that the monk should qualify for the bonus feat listing from fighters. However, forgetting to put certain wording in and well...