Spell resistance and anti magic

[Melcar]

Hello...

I was wondering if Melf's acid arrow would harm a person inside an anti magic field, when fired from the outside? And what about the same question with Globe of Invulnerability? Since conjuration (creation) is actual matter, not magical energy I'm guessing in would work just like a normal missile fired from a bow.

What say you?

Thanks!

[Psyren]

AMF: No, because the acid arrow has a duration, and so there is magic keeping it going that gets suppressed. If it were instantaneous (or even "instantaneous; see text" for the burn-over-time portion,) then it would.

Globe: Yes, because it's SR: No - that's all that matters there.

[Melcar]

Just to be totally clear. A conjuration (creation) spell, is not stopped by abjuration spells right? Because its physical matter and not magical energy.

Another example would be The Srinshee's Spellshift, would that block Melf's Unicorn Arrow or any other conjuration (creation) spell?

[Urpriest]

Just to be totally clear. A conjuration (creation) spell, is not stopped by abjuration spells right? Because its physical matter and not magical energy.

Abjuration spells are able to protect against physical matter. Pretty much any such spell that creates a physical barrier can do that. Basically, SR:No status is only relevant for things that care about magic, but some protections (Ray Deflection) instead interfere with spell targeting, regardless of whether the magic is directly affecting the subject.

[Psyren]

Just to be totally clear. A conjuration (creation) spell, is not stopped by abjuration spells right? Because its physical matter and not magical energy.

That depends on the spell itself, not its type; if the spell says it stops the specific effect you're creating then it will. For example, Protection from Energy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/protectionFromEnergy.htm) (an abjuration) will stop fire damage, whether that fire comes from a fireball (evocation) or an orb of fire (conjuration-creation.)

Globe of Invulnerability meanwhile inherits some of its attributes from the Spell Resistance quality; and one of those attributes is that instantaneous creation effects bypass them. That weakness is unique to the Globe, not a general rule for all abjurations. So the Globe will stop a fireball, but not an orb of fire.

Hopefully that was clearer.

[Melcar]

That depends on the spell itself, not its type; if the spell says it stops the specific effect you're creating then it will. For example, Protection from Energy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/protectionFromEnergy.htm) (an abjuration) will stop fire damage, whether that fire comes from a fireball (evocation) or an orb of fire (conjuration-creation.)

Globe of Invulnerability meanwhile inherits some of its attributes from the Spell Resistance quality; and one of those attributes is that instantaneous creation effects bypass them. That weakness is unique to the Globe, not a general rule for all abjurations. So the Globe will stop a fireball, but not an orb of fire.

Hopefully that was clearer.

It is... would you say that all conjuration (creation) spells would bypass the globe? Like that of an area spell or Melf's Unicorn Arrow? Oh and what about spell reflection and absorption? Does that work against conjuration (creation)?

[Psyren]

It is... would you say that all conjuration (creation) spells would bypass the globe? Like that of an area spell or Melf's Unicorn Arrow?

Only if they are SR:No (which, granted, the vast majority of [Creation] effects are.)



Oh and what about spell reflection and absorption? Does that work against conjuration (creation)?

Again, that depends on the specific spell. I think you're trying to find general rules for these sorts of things instead of reading the individual spell text, but there's no way around that. It can get complicated, sure, but that's just one of the side-effects of a rules-heavy system.

Which specific reflection or absorption spell(s) do you mean?

[TuggyNE]

Globe of Invulnerability meanwhile inherits some of its attributes from the Spell Resistance quality; and one of those attributes is that instantaneous creation effects bypass them. That weakness is unique to the Globe, not a general rule for all abjurations. So the Globe will stop a fireball, but not an orb of fire.

Wait, what?


An immobile, faintly shimmering magical sphere surrounds you and excludes all spell effects of 3rd level or lower. The area or effect of any such spells does not include the area of the lesser globe of invulnerability. Such spells fail to affect any target located within the globe. Excluded effects include spell-like abilities and spells or spell-like effects from items. However, any type of spell can be cast through or out of the magical globe. Spells of 4th level and higher are not affected by the globe, nor are spells already in effect when the globe is cast. The globe can be brought down by a targeted dispel magic spell, but not by an area dispel magic. You can leave and return to the globe without penalty.

Note that spell effects are not disrupted unless their effects enter the globe, and even then they are merely suppressed, not dispelled.

If a given spell has more than one level depending on which character class is casting it, use the level appropriate to the caster to determine whether lesser globe of invulnerability stops it.

Where in that text does it reference SR in any fashion, or allow any spell school or subschool or descriptor to bypass it?

I believe you're thinking of antimagic field, which does make a specific exception for Instantaneous Conjurations, or perhaps spell immunity, which works on SR:Infinite like a golem. The globes, however, are perfect defenses within their area and spell level.

[Melcar]

Wait, what?



Where in that text does it reference SR in any fashion, or allow any spell school or subschool or descriptor to bypass it?

I believe you're thinking of antimagic field, which does make a specific exception for Instantaneous Conjurations, or perhaps spell immunity, which works on SR:Infinite like a golem. The globes, however, are perfect defenses within their area and spell level.

I must agree. It says no where that some spells go through the barrier. Melf's Acid Arrow or Orb of Fire would also be stopped.

[Chronos]

Nitpick: A Globe of Invulnerability won't stop an Orb of Fire, but for a completely different reason: It's 4th level.

[Urpriest]

I concur that Globe of Invulnerability isn't SR-based. Rather, it restricts spells based on their Area or Effect line. That's another consistent way to do things. It's only magic immunity that doesn't specify a particular part of the spell description that creates absurdity.

[Psyren]

Huh, guess I misread it. Oh well.

Regardless, my earlier advice stands - go by the text of the specific spell you're using for protection. You haven't told me yet which specific absorptive/reflective spells you're looking at.

[Zancloufer]

Nitpick: A Globe of Invulnerability won't stop an Orb of Fire, but for a completely different reason: It's 4th level.

Super Nitpick : Globe of Invulnerability DOES stop level 4 spells. a LESSER one however only stops up to level 3.

Also, I think the OP was asking if spells that are not effected by SR would penetrate a (Lesser) Globe of Invulnerability or an Anti-Magic field. IIRC the Anti-Magic Field suppresses any magical effect that isn't from an Artifact or a spell that is SPECIFICALLY listed as working in one. It says that Summoned Creatures wink out, even though Summon Monster I-IX have SR: No in the description. Though the question of it instantaneous conjurations still work is a bit of a throw up. The RAW reading of it implies so though.

[Melcar]

Huh, guess I misread it. Oh well.

Regardless, my earlier advice stands - go by the text of the specific spell you're using for protection. You haven't told me yet which specific absorptive/reflective spells you're looking at.

I was not going for anything special and here is why.

Me and my friend had this friendly battle between our level 30 mages. He has access to epic magic, I don’t. Now I have over the course of playing my mage created some quite powerful spells, some of which is protection spells. During this battle, he activated some epic spell and came at me in melee fashion.

He told me only to take a reflex save, which I failed. He then told me that I then took 1000 damage. I protested that I was behind my very powerful spell, which he discarded. So now, I’m just trying to find out how the different protections spells are functioning. My friend was a conjurer specialist!

[TuggyNE]

I was not going for anything special and here is why.

Me and my friend had this friendly battle between our level 30 mages. He has access to epic magic, I don’t. Now I have over the course of playing my mage created some quite powerful spells, some of which is protection spells. During this battle, he activated some epic spell and came at me in melee fashion.

He told me only to take a reflex save, which I failed. He then told me that I then took 1000 damage. I protested that I was behind my very powerful spell, which he discarded. So now, I’m just trying to find out how the different protections spells are functioning. My friend was a conjurer specialist!

Well, what's the text of your custom spell?

In any case, though, a battle between epic spellcasting and non-epic spellcasting will almost inevitably end in favor of epic, unless there's a substantial difference in effective optimization, because epic spellcasting is absurdly breakable beyond even regular casting.

[Emperor Tippy]

Well, what's the text of your custom spell?

In any case, though, a battle between epic spellcasting and non-epic spellcasting will almost inevitably end in favor of epic, unless there's a substantial difference in effective optimization, because epic spellcasting is absurdly breakable beyond even regular casting.

It should always end in favor of epic casting. Absolute immunity to all 0-9th level spells is easy.

Hell, all you have to do to make one of the officially published epic spells do it is switch it from the reflect seed to the ward seed, strip out the backlash damage, and up the casting time from 41 days, 10 minutes to 51 days, 10 minutes.

For the exact same DC and with the exact same mitigation you can also pump your AC up to around +180 with a combination of an Armor bonus and a Natural Armor bonus.

[Melcar]

Well, what's the text of your custom spell?

In any case, though, a battle between epic spellcasting and non-epic spellcasting will almost inevitably end in favor of epic, unless there's a substantial difference in effective optimization, because epic spellcasting is absurdly breakable beyond even regular casting.

Here you go. This is the protection spell that he dismissed even without reading it... the bastard! :smallsmile:


Melcar’s Aurora
Transmutation
Level: Sor/wiz 9
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 1 min/lvl
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No
When this spell is cast, the caster is transformed into raw magical energy resembling silver white flames, shining like a bright light in a 40ft. radius. The caster is now protected against any spell, spell like or supernatural ability and effect that duplicate such to the extent of 50%. This silver fire also gives the caster a spell resistance equal to the caster’s caster level + intelligence or charisma modifier for wizards and sorcerers respectively and finally gives a + 2 circumstance bonus to spell DC, spell penetration and spell girding. If any dispel or disjunction spell or effect is used, against someone warded with Melcar’s Aurora, to remove a currently active spell, or the spell itself, the caster can instead of losing the spells block out the dispel effect. This causes 1d4 points of damage per total spell levels of ongoing spell effects. When employing this spell, the tremendous power unleashed, causes the caster to burn and thusly take 1d6 points of damage each round.
Material Component: Blood from the caster.

[Emperor Tippy]

Here you go. This is the protection spell that he dismissed even without reading it... the bastard! :smallsmile:

Or he just pumped up the damage to 2000d6 and gets to laugh at you.

Or did the same thing but tied in an Epic Dispel Seed component, which includes the line "Any creature, object, or spell is potentially subject to the dispel seed, even the spells of gods and the abilities of artifacts." and thus screws you.

Without even getting into real epic magic, a non epic caster is screwed against a mage with Epic Spellcasting.

I note that your enemy didn't just turn off spellcasting over the entire planet for everyone except him, remove all other magic from everyone except him on the entire planet, and then teleport the planet into a star. Or just vaporize it.

[Melcar]

Or he just pumped up the damage to 2000d6 and gets to laugh at you.

Or did the same thing but tied in an Epic Dispel Seed component, which includes the line "Any creature, object, or spell is potentially subject to the dispel seed, even the spells of gods and the abilities of artifacts." and thus screws you.

Without even getting into real epic magic, a non epic caster is screwed against a mage with Epic Spellcasting.

I note that your enemy didn't just turn off spellcasting over the entire planet for everyone except him, remove all other magic from everyone except him on the entire planet, and then teleport the planet into a star. Or just vaporize it.

I see your point, but he cant just dispel my spell, without me wanting it. Also how would he bypass a 50% miss chance and spell resitstance... Thats what got me thinking in the first place, that I need to know more about how spells interact; hence this thread.

[eggynack]

I see your point, but he cant just dispel my spell, without me wanting it. Also how would he bypass a 50% miss chance and spell resitstance... Thats what got me thinking in the first place, that I need to know more about how spells interact; hence this thread.
I don't see why not. You fall under the category of any creature, object, or spell, so you're vulnerable to the epic dispel seed. Your spell tries to block it, and fails, because your entire life became a meaningless and farcical tragedy the moment you agreed to an arena duel with a guy using epic spellcasting.

[Melcar]

I don't see why not. You fall under the category of any creature, object, or spell, so you're vulnerable to the epic dispel seed. Your spell tries to block it, and fails, because your entire life became a meaningless and farcical tragedy the moment you agreed to an arena duel with a guy using epic spellcasting.

No.. no correct. An epic spell cant force a dispel vs someone warded wih this spell. Thats basically the main power of the spel. So no, the warded caster would not fail a dispel block. Nor do I see how one could beat a 50% miss chance without roll a d100!

Im guessing when the wording of two spell conflict saying on does something and the other one says it block that, the rulling has to be op to the DM. But since we are valuating spells how would you guys see the following spell against an epic spell?


Melcar’s Weave Mythal
Abjuration
Level: Sor/wiz 10
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: One round
Target: Personal
Duration: 1 min/lvl
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No
At the least, this spell cloaks the caster in a mobile, faintly shimmering magical 10.-radius sphere. This sphere prevents all spells from entering its boundaries to affect those within, though spells can be cast from inside with no effects on the sphere or cast spells. The area or effect of any such spells and spell-like abilities does not include the area of the weave mythal. Such spells fail to affect any target located within the globe. Excluded effects include spell-like abilities and spells or spell-like effects from items. . For all intents and purposes, the spell is a protective globe of invulnerability. Furthermore, this spell functions as a lens through which the weave is now viewed. With this sight and the magic active, the caster can reach out and manipulate the Weave for various effects on active spells.

• Aid: Any spell forming or existing within range can be boosted for a round, increasing its range, damage, or area of effect by double its normal effects. Thus, a comrade’s fireball could be mythalled to explode with a 40.-radius or its damage could be boosted to double the caster’s level in six-sided dice! This effect can be used only on wizards. Spells, so it cannot double the amount of healing gained from a priest’s cure light wounds spell.

• Cancel: The mythalled wizard can snuff one forming spell within the Weave before it is fully formed, so none of its effects ever manifest. The casting wizard of the cancelled spell, unless aware of the actions of the mythalled character, would merely believe that the spell failed or was improperly cast.

• Deaden: The mythalled caster can place a 5.-radius globe of dead magic around one target creature or areas within range for the remainder of the current round. All magic and all magical items within that area are canceled. This allows characters a way to pierce magical fields.

Only one of the above options can be used each round, or all can be ignored in favor of standard Spellcasting

Material Components: One Weave Sphere, a star sapphire and blood from a great wyrm gold dragon.

[TuggyNE]

No.. no correct. An epic spell cant force a dispel vs someone warded wih this spell. Thats basically the main power of the spel.

But the main power of epic casting is "Can ignore the main power of whatever else, even that, nya nya nya." No, seriously, that's why it's so broken: you can make an epic spell that will force basically anything at all, despite any attempted immunities or wardings or impossibilities.

[Urpriest]

I see your point, but he cant just dispel my spell, without me wanting it. Also how would he bypass a 50% miss chance and spell resitstance... Thats what got me thinking in the first place, that I need to know more about how spells interact; hence this thread.

Miss chance is irrelevant if it doesn't require an attack roll, and spell resistance only matters if it offers spell resistance. So I'm assuming he used a method that offered a reflex save, like you said, and that didn't offer spell resistance.

Also, custom spells defeats the whole point of your exercise. The whole advantage of epic spells is that they can be customized. If you can make your own non-epic spells, then you're just making epic spells that cost less and don't require a spellcraft check.

[Melcar]

But the main power of epic casting is "Can ignore the main power of whatever else, even that, nya nya nya." No, seriously, that's why it's so broken: you can make an epic spell that will force basically anything at all, despite any attempted immunities or wardings or impossibilities.


I’m not sure I agree 100%. Momento Mori does not harm someone immune to death effect. Nor would an epic slay living be able to harm an undead, no matter what write-up you gave it. Epic spell can do almost anything, but they still follow to the principles of casting.

It says for instance, that if just one of the seeds used in a spell allows for spell resistance then the whole spell allows for it. So that is not an option if you choose a seed that does allow SR. Just like the dispel seed is just a +40 dispel, not an absolute dispel like Mordenkainen’s disjunction, which btw is also stopped by my spell, if the warded caster so chooses.



Miss chance is irrelevant if it doesn't require an attack roll, and spell resistance only matters if it offers spell resistance. So I'm assuming he used a method that offered a reflex save, like you said, and that didn't offer spell resistance.

Also, custom spells defeats the whole point of your exercise. The whole advantage of epic spells is that they can be customized. If you can make your own non-epic spells, then you're just making epic spells that cost less and don't require a spellcraft check.

The 50% miss chance affect all spells, spell-like and supernatural abilities, not just the ones that require an attack role. Namely because it not a miss chance per say, it a 50% chance not to affected at all.

It says in DMG that any spellcaster can creates there own spells. So a level 1 wizard, sorcerer, cleric, druid can create his or her own custom spells. That a standard rule. What I'm Saying is that just because its Epic does not mean it automatically overrules standard immunities and rules.

I know this discussion is stupid, when based around homebrew spells, and that was why I was reluctant to post that in the first place. I just wanted to know the laws of spells and resistances.

[Psyren]

The laws are what the spells say they are. We would need the text of both your spell and his to correctly determine how they interact.

But you guys are effectively playing Cops & Robbers/Calvinball at this point.

[Melcar]

The laws are what the spells say they are. We would need the text of both your spell and his to correctly determine how they interact.

But you guys are effectively playing Cops & Robbers/Calvinball at this point.

I know... I've told him that I need to see his spell before I can accept an outright defeat. And he wont let me see it. So we are locked in a battle of words... his against mine!:smallmad:

[Psyren]

I know... I've told him that I need to see his spell before I can accept an outright defeat. And he wont let me see it. So we are locked in a battle of words... his against mine!:smallmad:

This is the main issue right here. If he's not going to attempt to be fair/mature with you, PvP of any kind may not be the best idea, and most especially if you're using homebrewed spells. There is simply no chance of a fair contest under those conditions, and the game is bad enough at PvP as it is.

[Melcar]

This is the main issue right here. If he's not going to attempt to be fair/mature with you, PvP of any kind may not be the best idea, and most especially if you're using homebrewed spells. There is simply no chance of a fair contest under those conditions, and the game is bad enough at PvP as it is.

Thats the problem. And why I tried to get some general laws about the magic! I'm actually thinking just to cancel the rest of the PvP battle since we will get nowhere from here!

[eggynack]

Thats the problem. And why I tried to get some general laws about the magic! I'm actually thinking just to cancel the rest of the PvP battle since we will get nowhere from here!
There really aren't all that many general rules about magic, at least not like this. You look at the one spell, and then you look at the other spell, and they interact in the way that they clearly do, if they interact at all. If there is a general rule of magic that applies to this situation, it's that epic magic always wins, so the end result is that you've probably lost. His actual epic spells are like your fake epic spells, except his have the backing of epic status, which generally lets it win rule disputes.

If he refuses to show you the spell, just say that it's a tie and move on with your life. Simple as buns. Running epic level duels is kinda pointless anyway, as the various posts about epic casting's stupidity should have made clear. You should probably try out a duel at about 13th level, as per the test of spite, and stop using these weird researched spells. It just makes the already kinda flawed rules even flawed'er. It doesn't really tell you anything about your game skill in comparison to your opponent if you're just making up abilities, and if you're not having a battle of game skill, I can't imagine what you are doing.

[Melcar]

There really aren't all that many general rules about magic, at least not like this. You look at the one spell, and then you look at the other spell, and they interact in the way that they clearly do, if they interact at all. If there is a general rule of magic that applies to this situation, it's that epic magic always wins, so the end result is that you've probably lost. His actual epic spells are like your fake epic spells, except his have the backing of epic status, which generally lets it win rule disputes.

If he refuses to show you the spell, just say that it's a tie and move on with your life. Simple as buns. Running epic level duels is kinda pointless anyway, as the various posts about epic casting's stupidity should have made clear. You should probably try out a duel at about 13th level, as per the test of spite, and stop using these weird researched spells. It just makes the already kinda flawed rules even flawed'er. It doesn't really tell you anything about your game skill in comparison to your opponent if you're just making up abilities, and if you're not having a battle of game skill, I can't imagine what you are doing.

First of all I agree with you in many points. But... I dont feel I have created a "fake" epic spell. Home reseached or homebrew spells are an option just like forging your own weapons or armor. The power and scale of the level 9 spell can be debated, but in no way have I made up any rule there.

The reason for doing a dual at that level, is based on ability to build a character. Not only in terms of spells, but also feats and so forth.

And finally we were doing it because we thought it was fun. My character was started at level 1 in 2002, and we just wanted a good old dual. Alas we ended in a stalemate.

[eggynack]

First of all I agree with you in many points. But... I dont feel I have created a "fake" epic spell. Home reseached or homebrew spells are an option just like forging your own weapons or armor. The power and scale of the level 9 spell can be debated, but in no way have I made up any rule there.

The reason for doing a dual at that level, is based on ability to build a character. Not only in terms of spells, but also feats and so forth.

And finally we were doing it because we thought it was fun. My character was started at level 1 in 2002, and we just wanted a good old dual. Alas we ended in a stalemate.
I get that researched spells are a thing, but what they are is essentially arbitrary. You can just put anything down on paper, and there ya go, now you're powerful. It might be alright for a regular game, but in an arena duel it seems kinda pointless. I mean, you say that the arena duel was because you wanted to test your character building prowess, but what does that even mean when the facets of your character aren't pulled from the actual game? I would say the same thing about someone using third party materials, because it just strikes me as a bit disingenuous to use those in what is ostensibly an optimization challenge. Finally, as you may now know, epic level duels aren't really all that fun. It's rather a tragic thing, but a thing it is. Epic spellcasting just makes duels utterly pointless. You're not fighting duels at that point. You're fighting worlds and planes and gods.

[Psyren]

They're certainly an option but there are no guidelines given so it's all kind of a crapshoot really. Anyway it sounds like either one of you is the DM or you don't have one so it's all good. Now you know the answer, you can't really go forward with this contest unless he explains how his superspell actually works.

And as Tippy pointed out there were a lot worse things he could have done with Epic Magic, porting the planet out from under you for instance would not have needed to interact with your own protection at all. Or he can develop Mordenkainen's I Win that bypasses your protections entirely.

So hopefully you've learned a valuable lesson about PvP in this game, especially at epic levels.

[Melcar]

They're certainly an option but there are no guidelines given so it's all kind of a crapshoot really. Anyway it sounds like either one of you is the DM or you don't have one so it's all good. Now you know the answer, you can't really go forward with this contest unless he explains how his superspell actually works.

And as Tippy pointed out there were a lot worse things he could have done with Epic Magic, porting the planet out from under you for instance would not have needed to interact with your own protection at all. Or he can develop Mordenkainen's I Win that bypasses your protections entirely.

So hopefully you've learned a valuable lesson about PvP in this game, especially at epic levels.

I have indeed learned a lesson here. It was fun up to the point where he cast the epic spell, and then wouldn't allow me to look at it. :smallfrown:

But I still dont agree that he could have just wrote his way through my protection spell. He would still (in my opponion) have to follow the rules of spellcasting and interactions between spells. Type of damage, SR, saves ect...

[Psyren]

But I still dont agree that he could have just wrote his way through my protection spell. He would still (in my opponion) have to follow the rules of spellcasting and interactions between spells. Type of damage, SR, saves ect...

All he has to do is add the dispel seed and pump his Spellcraft up - it removes anything and has no cap. So it wouldn' matter what your protections are. (Certainly it doesn't matter as long as his spell is unknown.)

[Emperor Tippy]

I see your point, but he cant just dispel my spell, without me wanting it. Also how would he bypass a 50% miss chance and spell resitstance... Thats what got me thinking in the first place, that I need to know more about how spells interact; hence this thread.

1) He can just blast through your spell on raw damage if he wants.
2) The Dispel seed says that it can take down all spells. This is a specific rule. Just like your spell says it can't be dispelled. The problem is that the Dispel seed is Epic and comes out of a 10th level spell slot, that means that in any conflict the Epic spell wins.

[Melcar]

All he has to do is add the dispel seed and pump his Spellcraft up - it removes anything and has no cap. So it wouldn' matter what your protections are. (Certainly it doesn't matter as long as his spell is unknown.)

Unless its an undispellable spell! Like it is! Its like when an unstoppable force meets an imoveable force! :smallbiggrin:


1) He can just blast through your spell on raw damage if he wants.
2) The Dispel seed says that it can take down all spells. This is a specific rule. Just like your spell says it can't be dispelled. The problem is that the Dispel seed is Epic and comes out of a 10th level spell slot, that means that in any conflict the Epic spell wins.

For the sake of argument... where does it actually say that epic spells always trumps non-epic? I can see that it might make sense that a level 10 beats a level 9, but I would very much like to read it myself, just as I would like to read the epic spell in question before accepting defeat!

[Psyren]

Unless its an undispellable spell! Like it is! Its like when an unstoppable force meets an imoveable force! :smallbiggrin:



For the sake of argument... where does it actually say that epic spells always trumps non-epic? I can see that it might make sense that a level 10 beats a level 9, but I would very much like to read it myself, just as I would like to read the epic spell in question before accepting defeat!

It says so right in the Dispel Seed itself:


Any creature, object, or spell is potentially subject to the dispel seed, even the spells of gods and the abilities of artifacts.

Basically, the text of how the Dispel Seed works will always be more specific to how the Dispel Seed works than the text of your spell is to how the Dispel Seed works.

[Melcar]

It says so right in the Dispel Seed itself:



Basically, the text of how the Dispel Seed works will always be more specific to how the Dispel Seed works than the text of your spell is to how the Dispel Seed works.

Yes I have read that, I was looking for a more general or official statement saying that all level 10 beats all level 1-9 or something in that matter. Because even epic dispel still have to succeed a dispel check meaning that it could indeed fail, meaning that it does not automatically beat level 1-9. So again if it doesn’t say anywhere that epics always, because they are in al effects level 10, beat level 1-9 I'll hold firm that the spell girding of my protection spell is simple to high for any dispel check to succeed. That’s low, i know, but in all fairness I have yet to read that they always beat and penetrate all defenses of level 1-9.

[Psyren]

Yes, Epic Spells can fail. But without seeing his spell, you have no idea how high the bonus on his dispel check is. It could be +10, or +1000 for all you know - and he sets his bonus with a skill check, which is much, much easier to boost than CL.

I'll end by saying that without seeing his spell any further speculation on this topic is unfortunately pointless for any of us.

[Melcar]

Yes, Epic Spells can fail. But without seeing his spell, you have no idea how high the bonus on his dispel check is. It could be +10, or +1000 for all you know - and he sets his bonus with a skill check, which is much, much easier to boost than CL.

I'll end by saying that without seeing his spell any further speculation on this topic is unfortunately pointless for any of us.

I could not agree with you more! We need an impartial DM or panel of DMs to rule the situation! Or find something better to do! :smallbiggrin:

[Max Caysey]

What you need to do is either re write the spell so that instead of being immune to dispell, you give it some high number of spell girding or make another buff spell, that gives a high spell girding. Like 1 per caster level. That way, it will be virtual impossible for him to cancel your spells without it being a violation of the epic spell seed!

[Melcar]

I have one more question concerning epic dispel and my homebrew protection spell.

Now the epic dispel says that it can end spells that are not normally affected by dispel. And thus being epic level (lvl 10) the consensus of this forum has been that it beats my spell, even though it says it can’t be dispelled. Actually after reading my own spell again it does not say that it can’t be dispelled it says that the warded person can block the dispel effect. The spell itself is just as dispellable as any other spell, but it gives the caster the ability to block the dispel. This hurts him and thusly deals damage.

When it’s clear that it’s the caster who can enforce his will on the dispel, how would you then rule?

Thanks