lv20 Dread Necromancers

[Thanatosia]

Reading the lv20 ability of the Dread Necromancer class.... it says they become undead and gain all the normal ability of undead, but it doesn't say it gains all he abilities of a Lich. Do they actually become Liches as per the Lich Template with all the normal Lich abilities, or are they a different 'type' of Lich then the normal kind? Also - if they do become a full fledged lich, do they have to pay for the Lich Templates normal Level Adjustment in any way. And in the case of NPC Dread Necromancers, do they have their CR boosted as normal per the Lich Template?

[Zanos]

There was a custserv about this awhile ago, where they said that you gain the Undead type and have "lich like class features." The status of the player's phylactery was sort of left up in the air. Custserv has a dubious track record, however.

If you're a player, talk to your DM about it. As a DM, I would let them have it. DN as a class doesn't really have many class features after level 8, and the template isn't that strong. Classes that give templates shouldn't come with a LA. Doesn't make sense to gain a level and have your ECL shoot up by five. Likewise, an NPC probably shouldn't have their CR increased, as the template is part of the class.

[Silva Stormrage]

It is debated but it is general assumed that cutserve is mistaken. If you ignore cutserve entirely its pretty clear that the DN becomes a lich which means he gains the lich template including all of its abilities.

For the NPC question I would probably say that it wouldn't increase the CR since its just a class feature. Imagine if the class feature was instead something like: Gain DR 15, +2 int, wis, and charisma, +5 natural armor and a paralyzing touch. That wouldn't increase the CR of the DN but its pretty much the same thing as gaining the lich template.

[Emperor Tippy]

RAW is unclear. In practice just give them the full Lich template without the LA, at level 20 it is nothing special.

[Thanatosia]

My problem with ignoring the LA/CR is this hypothetical:

What if a Dread Necro became a Lich 'early' using the regular methods.... could he 'buy off' the Level adjustment/CR by then continuing to level to 20 as a Dread Necro?

It seems counterintuitive to me to make one lv20 DN Lich have a higher CR or LA then another just because he became a Lich earlier in his career, but their abilities are now equal either way. But I don't like 'buying off' the LA/Cr either.... It just doesn't feel like there is an elegant solution.

[Ansem]

You should become undead early and PrC out
I've played it a few times and Necropolitan asap > DN 8/Palemaster 10/2x whatever helps undead or going Vampire instead of necropolitan is far more worth the investment and the 12 dead levels of DN isn't worth the lichdom unless you want to hold yourself back.

[Zanos]

You should become undead early and PrC out
I've played it a few times and Necropolitan asap > DN 8/Palemaster 10/2x whatever helps undead or going Vampire instead of necropolitan is far more worth the investment and the 12 dead levels of DN isn't worth the lichdom unless you want to hold yourself back.
You're suggesting that people take 8 LA for the vampire template? I'd rather have 8 levels of DN just for the class feature and spell progression.

PRCing out is a trap if you want to use DN as a minion master, by the way(Why else would you play one? :smallconfused:). Undead Mastery is keyed off of class level.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

PRCing out is a trap if you want to use DN as a minion master, by the way(Why else would you play one? :smallconfused:). Undead Mastery is keyed off of class level.

Pale Master 9 nets you an Undead Cohort that you can use as, say, a Bard with Requiem feat to boost your whole army of undead with DFI/IC cheese.

The other option for Pale Master is to take all five levels of Dread Witch and augment your Fear Aura with Aura of Terror (picked up at level 13 which is DN7/Dread Witch5/DN1 from Advanced Learning) and inflict Frightened on everything within a 15' radius, bypassing immunities to Fear effects.

In answer to the OP, the capstone ability does grant the Dread Necromancer the Litch template, at least to my reading. However, it can only apply that template to a valid target. Therefore, if you are already Undead, you can't gain the Litch template unless you get a True Resurrection to become 'mortal' again, to go Litch. However, if you have the typical minion-boosting feats, it would probably be worth it to you to do so, because you can get a whole lot of bonus hit points per hit die that way

Making sure the ritual to turn into a Litch is done within a Desecrated area with altar, using your 8th level DN ability to increase hit points, then picking up the feat Corpsecrafter for a total of +6 HP/HD on a d12 HD can easily give you over 250 hit points. Not too shabby, although a dedicated 'tank' might have more, they'd probably be about the only one.