Making TWF a little easier

[molten_dragon]

So two weapon fighting is generally assumed to be sub-par to using a two-handed weapon except in situations where you have extra dice of damage to apply (i.e. rogue).

There are several reasons for this, but one of them is that you have to pay to have each weapon enchanted separately, so it costs twice as much to have the same quality weapons as someone only using one.

How would this work to help fix that problem?

Double weapons are enchanted at the cost of a single weapon, but the whole weapon has the same enchantment on it.

For using two separate weapons, basically allow players to enchant a matched pair of weapons for the price of a single pair of weapons. They would need to be the same weapon, or have a thematic reason to fit together into a matched pair (such as a rapier and dagger), and they would need to have the same enchantments on each one (maybe with minor exceptions, such as which energy type damage they dealt, so you could have a pair of daggers one which did fire and one which did cold).

Would it help enough to be worth doing? Would there be any major pitfalls? Is it unbalanced in some way?

[Lord Haart]

Ladder breaking problem: craft a matching pair (better yet, be a tri-kreen and use your four-handiness as an excuse to craft four matching weapons) with usual crafting discount, sell them as independent magic items.

Now if there was a cheap (preferably fixed cost) enchantment of "You may choose to threat one other weapon you wield to count as having all magical properties of this item; if you do, it does not gain benefits of any magical properties it originally had" (text is given just as an idea and is in no way rule lawyers-proof), that would at least avoid that particular problem.

[molten_dragon]

Ladder breaking problem: craft a matching pair (better yet, be a tri-kreen and use your four-handiness as an excuse to craft four matching weapons) with usual crafting discount, sell them as independent magic items.

The obvious solution is if they were crafted and enchanted as a matching pair, they could only be bought/sold as a matching pair too.

[DR27]

How would this work to help fix that problem?Tome of Battle helps more than you would think (tiger claw, bloodclaw master) - but your assertion that the main problem is separate enchantment prices - is irrelevant; the real problem is the lack of legit things for two weapon fighters to do. Tiger Claw manuvers help a ton, but there are other things you can choose to be relevant.

[killem2]

In the age of worms has these monsters called wind warriors. They have this specific ability.

I would make it a feat and call it good.

Superior Two-Weapon Fightlng(Ex)A wind warrior's essence suffuses its entire: body, granting it supreme control over its movements. Wind warriors do not take a penalty on attack or damage rolls for attacking with two weapons

[bekeleven]

Superior Two-Weapon Fightlng(Ex)A wind warrior's essence suffuses its entire: body, granting it supreme control over its movements. Wind warriors do not take a penalty on attack or damage rolls for attacking with two weapons

Does this include two one-handed weapons? Because if not you're still suffering power attack drawback.

I suppose half power from PA is an even trade for double power from precision damage, though.

[killem2]

Does this include two one-handed weapons? Because if not you're still suffering power attack drawback.

I suppose half power from PA is an even trade for double power from precision damage, though.

Sorry, that's the only raw it shows :( They fight with two long swords in the stat block if that helps.

[molten_dragon]

but your assertion that the main problem is separate enchantment prices - is irrelevant

I'm not saying that's the main problem with two weapon fighting, I'm saying it's a problem and proposing a fix.

[SciChronic]

you could maybe do something like "linked" weapon pairs, where both have to be wielded/carried to received the enhancement bonus, and you pay half on the second weapon or something. having the requirement be wielded will deter some metagaming.

but the main problems with TWF is the feat intensity, and general lack of damage (or comparative damage) due to things like DR and power attack.

The first can be solved by compounding a number of feats into a single feat: TWF. Make it so you gain iteratives w/o needing improved/greater/supreme TWF, and just gain the extra attacks as you gain the appropriate BAB, second make standard actions allow attacking once with each weapon.

The second thing part however...

[Der_DWSage]

There are several problems with two-weapon fighting as a whole.

1:Half damage on the second weapon, in addition to the fact that it must be light, typically means that it deals too little damage for the typical adventurer to bother with. As mentioned, precision damage is the only real means of counteracting this.

2:Two-weapon fighting requires both high dexterity, and a chain of feats. Few adventurers will have both high dexterity and high strength, in addition to the aforementioned damage issues.

3:Power Attack, the main means of bringing such low damage to mediocre or exemplary levels, is halved. Additionally, you already have a -2 penalty to hit for dual-wielding.

4:The pricing for enchanting two weapons to both be competent is pure extortionism. You could settle for two weapons of lesser enchantment, but it's still very pricy.

5:There are other ways to get multiple attacks a round. Many of them require what can be politely called 'shenanigans,' but they allow an actual doubling of damage output, rather than doing as much as your fellow fighter types.

The benefits you get for two-weapon fighting...

1:Even with the penalty to hit, depending on the target number, it could still be a better chance of hitting than normal.

2:More chances to create 'on-hit' effects, such as sneak attack, poison, constitution damage, and whatnot.

3:A mage with Greater Magic Weapon can help offset the penalties for less magical weapons greatly, though not to the point where you catch up to full-fledged two-handed warriors.

4:Lookin' awesome.

So, with that in mind? The benefits hardly outweigh the risks. Ways to offset this would include...

1:Make Two-Weapon fighting a single feat. Maybe have it require a decent dex, or a certain BAB. After all, two-handed fighting is pretty nice, and doesn't require any kind of feat at all. Just Power Attack.

2:The single 'double weapon' enchantment, as mentioned before. Perhaps just encourage the GM to create paired weapons that don't function when removed from each other, and such a thing significantly reduces the price.

3:There needs to be an alternative to power attack for non-rogues who take the style. Perhaps something along the lines of a Monk's flurry of blows, so that one can actually feel like they're hitting a crazy amount of times. The downside to this is that it requires a lot of time for one person's turn doing math and rolling repeatedly. Alternatively, allowing the character to simply add 1d6 per hit landed they've landed that round, to emulate the fact that they're getting in under their victim's guard. Just remember:It needs to be an alternative to sneak attack, not an additive.

4:Make sure they feel awesome when they pull off crazy sword drills.

[Humble Master]

The way I rule it is that when you two-weapon fight you pick which magical effect you want of the two weapons and apply it to both of them, even if one is not magical. So if you have a +2 Longsword and a Mwk Shortsword, you can have them both be treated as +2 weapons. This is only when your fighting with two-weapons and comes as part of the Two Weapon Fighting feat.

[johnbragg]

For TWF, I wonder if the answer isn't tinkering with the rules for parrying. (Also tinker with the feat tax, since you'll want to improve your parrying with other feats). Stylistically, the idea is that one weapon is the attacking weapon and one weapon is supplemental. The other weapon is either parrying, or semi-flanking.

There's probably a sweet spot between "your successful off-hand attack gives a +2, equivalent to Aid Another" and "your successful off-hand attack means your opponent is flanked, now roll your main attack with Sneak Attack damage." Maybe a successful off-hand attack means your opponent is treated as unarmed for the rest of your attacks?

I thought I remembered being disarmed as giving a big penalty to AC/bonus to melee weapon attacks. All I can find, though, is attack of opportunity.

But actually, maybe that's a good answer. You roll your off-hand attack first. If you succeed offensively, your opponent counts as "disarmed" for the round (you're negating his weapon with your off-hand weapon), so if he attacks, (or if he attacked) he provokes an attack of opportunity with your main weapon.

Under the existing "fighting defensively" rules, it's a little trickier. If you succeed, you could get the benefits of fighting defensively, -4 to all attacks, +2 to Dodge bonus. That's a terrible use of a secondary attack under the existing rules, and even if you rule that it's -4 to your off-hand attacks only, +2 to AC is the same as a shield, and you don't have to make an attack roll to have a shield. Maybe add the weapon damage to your AC? Not sure how to work the mechanics on using your secondary weapon to parry your opponent's attacks.

That also comes a little closer to the flavor of Aragorn wielding sword-and-torch anyway.

And it's arguable that double-weapons (quarterstaff etc) shouldn't work the same way.