Battle Sorcerer / Stalwart Sorcerer

[Snig]

I'm looking at these two ACF for the sorcerer and unless i'm mistaken I can take Battle Sorcerer AND Stalwart Sorcerer without incurring the penalty of stalwart sorcerer.

Battle sorcerer will always only know one of her highest level spells, and the stalwart sorcerer Reduce by one the number of sorcerer spells
known for your highest spell level (to a minimum of one).

Am I reading this right? Do they cancel each other out? I'm not sure.

In any case i'll be taking Battle Sorcerer/Abjurant Champion and I was wondering if anyone knows of the best ways to gain spells know / per day to make up for the loss incurred by Battle Sorcerer?

[Fax Celestis]

You can do both.

This turns the sorcerer from a primary caster into what amounts to a frontline fighter with a bunch of magical tricks. Since your spell selection will be incredibly limited, I highly recommend the Extra Spell feat (and this is the only time I will ever probably say that) and focusing on spells that have multiple functions, such as lightning leap and firestride exhalation from Dragon Magic.

[jedipilot24]

Also consider the Fey Heritage feats from Complete Mage. Gives you DR/Cold Iron, which enhances survivability, and a bunch of useful spell-like abilities.

[Snig]

so i'm still not clear if I take the penalty from Stalwart Sorcerer, because it seems like it will never trigger (until level 20) if I also take battle sorcerer?

Battle Sorcerer reduces my spells known by one, so following this rule I will never have more then one max level spell, because the most max level spells a standard sorcerer can know is 2 (until 20, when she gains 3).

The Stalwart Sorcerer reduces your Max spells know by one (to a minimum of one). So if I always have only one max lvl spell I cannot further reduce it, meaning I get Stalwart Sorcerer for free?

[John Longarrow]

Snig,
The other point it pops up is at level 3. You will still only know 1 1st level spell then. At 4th you gain 1 1st and 1 2nd.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Use this trick (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=267805#4) and it won't even matter.



Reduce by one the number of sorcerer spells known for your highest spell level (to a minimum of one). As a 1st-level character, you have one 1st-level spell known rather than two.

When you would gain a second known spell from a higher level, apply this penalty to the new spell level but remove it from the lower level.


A battle sorcerer knows fewer spells per spell level than a standard sorcerer. Subtract one spell known from each spell level on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known (to a minimum of one spell per spell level). For example, a 4th-level battle sorcerer knows five 0-level spells, two 1st-level spells, and one 2nd-level spell. When she reaches 5th level, the battle sorcerer learns one additional 1st-level spell, but doesn't learn an additional 2nd-level spell (since two minus one is one).

At Sorcerer 1, you know only one 1st level spell. When you would gain a second spell known of a higher level, you move that -1 spell known penalty to that spell level. Battle Sorcerer changes the actual progression chart, which reduces the number of spells known you would gain before you even gain a given level. You won't gain a second spell known of a given level until the modified level progression chart actually shows it, at which time the Stalwart Sorcerer penalty can be moved to that spell level. Thus a given Stalwart Battle Sorcerer's spells known will be as follows:

Stalwart Battle Sorcerer Spells Known
Level 0 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th
1st 3 1 — — — — — — — —
2nd 4 1 — — — — — — — —
3rd 4 1 — — — — — — — —
4th 5 1 1 — — — — — — —
5th 5 2 1 — — — — — — —
6th 6 2 1 1 — — — — — —
7th 6 4 1 1 — — — — — —
8th 7 4 1 1 1 — — — — —
9th 7 4 3 1 1 — — — — —
10th 8 4 3 1 1 1 — — — —
11th 8 4 4 3 1 1 — — — —
12th 8 4 4 3 1 1 1 — — —
13th 8 4 4 3 3 1 1 — — —
14th 8 4 4 3 3 1 1 1 — —
15th 8 4 4 3 3 3 1 1 — —
16th 8 4 4 3 3 3 1 1 1 —
17th 8 4 4 3 3 3 2 1 1 —
18th 8 4 4 3 3 3 2 1 1 1
19th 8 4 4 3 3 3 2 2 1 1
20th 8 4 4 3 3 3 2 2 2 1

Edit: Just to clarify, the Stalwart Sorcerer drawback doesn't move to a higher level until you, as a Battle Sorcerer, using the modified Battle Sorcerer progression, would gain a second spell known of the next higher level.

[Snig]

Use this trick (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=267805#4) and it won't even matter.






At Sorcerer 1, you know only one 1st level spell. When you would gain a second spell known of a higher level, you move that -1 spell known penalty to that spell level. Battle Sorcerer changes the actual progression chart, which reduces the number of spells known you would gain before you even gain a given level. You won't gain a second spell known of a given level until the modified level progression chart actually shows it, at which time the Stalwart Sorcerer penalty can be moved to that spell level. Thus a given Stalwart Battle Sorcerer's spells known will be as follows:

Stalwart Battle Sorcerer Spells Known
Level 0 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th
1st 3 1 — — — — — — — —
2nd 4 1 — — — — — — — —
3rd 4 1 — — — — — — — —
4th 5 1 1 — — — — — — —
5th 5 2 1 — — — — — — —
6th 6 2 1 1 — — — — — —
7th 6 4 1 1 — — — — — —
8th 7 4 1 1 1 — — — — —
9th 7 4 3 1 1 — — — — —
10th 8 4 3 1 1 1 — — — —
11th 8 4 4 3 1 1 — — — —
12th 8 4 4 3 1 1 1 — — —
13th 8 4 4 3 3 1 1 — — —
14th 8 4 4 3 3 1 1 1 — —
15th 8 4 4 3 3 3 1 1 — —
16th 8 4 4 3 3 3 1 1 1 —
17th 8 4 4 3 3 3 2 1 1 —
18th 8 4 4 3 3 3 2 1 1 1
19th 8 4 4 3 3 3 2 2 1 1
20th 8 4 4 3 3 3 2 2 2 1

Edit: Just to clarify, the Stalwart Sorcerer drawback doesn't move to a higher level until you, as a Battle Sorcerer, using the modified Battle Sorcerer progression, would gain a second spell known of the next higher level.

Ehh, not really sure if it'd be worth the loss of spells? Might be better off just taking Battle Sorcerer and forgetting about Stalwart.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Ehh, not really sure if it'd be worth the loss of spells? Might be better off just taking Battle Sorcerer and forgetting about Stalwart.

As I already said, USE THIS TRICK (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=267805#4) and it won't even matter at all.

[Snig]

As I already said, USE THIS TRICK (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=267805#4) and it won't even matter at all.

I don't quite follow. Sorry i'm relatively unversed in magical items so far.

Is this some sort of staff that will give me extra spells known / spells per day?

[Zanos]

As I already said, USE THIS TRICK (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=267805#4) and it won't even matter at all.
As much as I like this trick, it does have the good alignment restriction, which limits a lot of characters. It's a very nice trick, but it's not applicable to every sorcerer.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I don't quite follow. Sorry i'm relatively unversed in magical items so far.

Is this some sort of staff that will give me extra spells known / spells per day?

Yes, a Runestaff (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ps/20070216a) adds spells directly to your spells known, though each one it gives you has a limit of one to three uses/day. Ancestral Relic allows you to decide exactly what magical properties your relic has, including what specific spells a Runestaff ancestral relic will give you. It even allows you to change what magical properties the relic has, including switching what spells a Runestaff relic gives you.

A Runestaff can also hold any magical properties that any other staff item would have, such as charged spells as a magic staff (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm#creatingStaffs), and magic weapon properties as a quarterstaff. Be sure both ends of it are of masterwork quality so both can be made magical weapons, and include two Wand Chambers from Dungeonscape before making it your ancestral relic. Note that nonmagical upgrades such as masterwork and wand chambers do not count against the ancestral relic's level-based limit on the value of its magical properties. You can enchant one end as your primary weapon, with properties such as Speed and Wounding, and enchant the opposite end as a double weapon with properties that grant passive benefits such as Warning and Defending. Use Greater Magic Weapon and Greater Mighty Wallop to further buff it without it counting against the relic's maximum magical value.

[Grim Reader]

I'm looking at these two ACF for the sorcerer and unless i'm mistaken I can take Battle Sorcerer AND Stalwart Sorcerer without incurring the penalty of stalwart sorcerer.

Battle sorcerer will always only know one of her highest level spells, and the stalwart sorcerer Reduce by one the number of sorcerer spells
known for your highest spell level (to a minimum of one).

Am I reading this right? Do they cancel each other out? I'm not sure.

In any case i'll be taking Battle Sorcerer/Abjurant Champion and I was wondering if anyone knows of the best ways to gain spells know / per day to make up for the loss incurred by Battle Sorcerer?

Note that the Stalwart bonuses won't apply to Abjurant Champion levles.

I recommend a Sand Shaper dip here. Desert Insight will add a buttload of useful spells, use them as the magical backbone of your character, and use the Sorcerer spell picks to round them out.

[Kristinn]

Stalwart Sorcerer is a nice ACF, but Battle Sorcerer is really bad. Like really bad. Unless you cheese it up with the Runestaff abuse you're exacerbating the Sorcerer's biggest issue, the number of Spells known. And when you advance the Sorcerer casting with Abjurant Champion you will be stuck with this problem, while not benefiting from any extra HD size/BAB.

The standard Sorcerer gish (martial character using magic) build is
Paladin 2 / (Stalwart) Sorcerer 4 / Spellsword 1 / Abjurant Champion 5

This takes you to level 12 only loosing 2 points of BAB and 2 levels of Sorcerer casting. Then you can finish with any 3/4 BAB full casting Prestige class (Sacred Exorcist being quoted most often), gaining full iteratives and 9th lvl. spells.

Edit: The reason you want Paladin (of Freedom) is for the Cha to Saves.