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View Full Version : Adapting Businesses to Produce a More Robust Economy in D&d 3.5e



Phylion
2013-09-21, 11:57 PM
I have recently designed a world/campaign/etc. for my 3.5 group. The great hook of the world: IT IS A GIANT ARCHIPELAGO.
Every place, every province every whatever, is an island. Maybe a few underwater ruins or something and SHAZAM, interesting and dynamic world that revolves around two things: Trade and Adventure.

That said, here's my problem: No matter how awesome I make my world and dynamic I make the relationships within it, the D&D rules produce a less than satisfactory economy, which is very very dreadfully boring. SO BORING. It's obvious that the primary objective of PCs is to beat up monsters and get paid, but, there is a certain fun quality of being able to produce a dynamic economy that rewards/penalizes PCs for their efforts/laziness.

So, I look to the community for help.

I was giving a lot of thought into how I could potentially make the economy more robust, and I think I have identified a few ways that I would appreciate criticism for and additional ideas to:

1. Businesses.
THIS IS THE BIG KAHUNA. This single thing could add scads of depth to the in-game economy. My problem is figuring out a way to adapt the DMG 2 material to fit for 3.5. I figure that this will be pretty easy, but I am still looking for help to see what the community would suggest for such an endeavor. The second part of this is a problem that I have seen pop in my readings: It's a waste of money. Yeah, it is, which brings me to my next point.

2. Maturity
So it's pretty much done and said that businesses are a waste of investment because they take too much time to mature. BUT WAIT. I haven't seen it mentioned much, but I thought that in between levels there was supposed to be a 3+ month "getting acquainted with your new powers" period. Wouldn't this significant amount of time, which you could lengthen, dramatically effect the output of a business? I mean, if the time from 1st to 5th level is ~3 years, doesn't that give you a lot of time for a business to mature, and since they can hire someone to manage the business they can spend that 3 months training and rest easy at night knowing that their investment is safely(or wildly) growing and earning them a significant amount of cha-ching? This rate of maturity brings we to my third point.

3. Eventful Economy
Okay, so this one isn't quite of self explanatory as the other two, but this is the general idea: The Economy doesn't always work the same way, and the rules aren't always such stalwart bastions. *gasp* Changes of this type would make dramatic changes to he economy on a global scale as a regular part of the sequence of events, and could even be the consequence of the PCs' actions. Example of a non-PC event: Randomly (by table roll or some such) a very chief trading company in the world goes bankrupt. All of a sudden, finding reliable transportation for goods across the globe is more difficult than it was before, and so objects become more expensive as a whole and a PC-owned business could take negatives to a profit check or something because it is more expensive to ship things (or a bonus to the check if they ran another trading company). Example of a PC event: The PCs liberate a town from the evil rule of a mind flayer, allowing the town to conduct trade, and boosting the world economy as a whole. These random-ish changes bring me to my next nugget.

4. Banking and the Stock Market
Well, if we assume that we have already established businesses in the world by adapting the rules from the DMG 2, then what we can add is some fundamental thing in our world that could be applied to D&D: banking. Say, for example, that adventuring has not gone so well, and the PCs are behind on their income and they really want some cool gear. What's the solution? In normal D&D, it would be...er...more adventuring...UGH! What if, instead, they could take a loan from a bank? So the rogue is lent 4,000gp from the bank to purchase his Gloves of Dexterity +2. Congrats, he (after going through a laborious process of convincing the bank that it is a positive investment) gets the gloves; now his troubles begin. He now owes the bank 4000gp. So to pay off his debt, he must yet still go out adventuring (or work his super awesome business that he created using my suggestions). But the breadwinner here is interest, SO he doesn't actually owe the bank 4000gp. He owes them, say, 4400gp. Now 4400 might not seem like a lot, but, combined with the fact that he did not have the 4000 gp to begin with... So, yeah. You could also potentially add something to the degree that you could deposit your money into a bank account and gain interest on the money that you might now be using otherwise (say, the profits from our awesome business). Now, about the stock. If you generate NPC-owned and operated businesses, then you could generate stock. A PC, being the savvy businessman he is after creating an awesome business and saving his hard earned cash away, decides that a company looks very profitable and invests in buying some stock in that company. TA-DAH. He is now a part owner of that company, and as such, he gains the appropriate % of the businesses profit to his personal purse. For example, a PC owns one of 1000 stocks in a company. When the end of the month rolls around and the business tallies up its total profit, it finds out, amazingly, that it has made an entire 1000gp for the month. The PC, being a one-thousandth owner of the business, is rewarded with 1gp. Not much, but he could easily buy more stock and take home a larger slice of the pie. A company's stock could be divided into a set number, like 1000, and the value of each piece of stock could be the initial capital required for the business plus its average/projected monthly profit divided by that number, 1000, which subsequently means that as the business matures, so does the PC's purse. You can even tie this into global evens that shift the profits of every business, effecting the stock market as a whole. My last point for now concerns enterprises.

5. Enterprises
This is for when your awesome business really does well and your stock portfolio is really diversified. The general idea is owning multiple businesses. So instead of settling down into your single smithy, the PCs, through their awesome world manipulating business skills, own every smithy, and make money from every smithy. They can use this money to set up even MORE SMITHIES. Not too outrageous, until you consider that the PCs now have a monopoly and an radically alter the world with a wave of their hands. Additionally, say that a PC owns a very substantial business, say, that has reached a certain ratio of income compared to initial investment. At this point, the business now has the capability to become an enterprise instead. Enterprises are composed of groupings of businesses. The Enterprise is treated as an entity that gets the profits from its member businesses. So, the Enterprise is treated as a person capable of owning stock, and owns a certain portion of each business. Each business makes its money individually, and indeed has its own stockholders who get the appropriate percentage of the businesses' profits, but the Enterprise, owning as it were a portion of the business, gains a slice of the pie, and this is treated as the Enterprises income, which a business savvy investor could also purchase stock of. Instead of splitting from a a main business, though, PCs or NPCs could establish entirely new businesses that they add to their enterprise. All of a sudden, the in-game economy of D&D just became a whole lot more complicated and fun.

Future Ideas that I Will Likely Post Furher Down the Thread: 1. The Potential for Guilds. 2. What Happens if You Own A Bank? 3. Buying the Stock of a Business and Becoming its Owner. 4. How Stockholders Vote over the Course of a Business 5. What Could People do to Mess Up Your Business 6. Running Illegal Businesses 7. Taxes 8. Interplanar Trade

Thank you for reading and feel free to leave suggestions/criticisms concerning what I have so far.

TuggyNE
2013-09-22, 03:10 AM
This is not a bad idea, but I feel it necessary to point out that adventuring is normally considered a huge risk that is also hugely profitable. It's the equivalent of junk bonds, except more so in every way: sure, 9 out of 10 adventurers die screaming in their souls, but the other 1/10 become hugely rich beyond the dreams of avarice. So interest charged to them is probably something like 150% per month, or even higher. (No, seriously.)

PersonMan
2013-09-22, 03:53 AM
I've never heard of this 'you level, spend 3+ months getting used to your new abilities' thing, and I can't see it making much sense most of the time. You learn to stab someone slightly better, and resist poison, etc. slightly better. Why does this take 3+ months?

@Banks: In a world where you can teleport to the other side of the world and disguise yourself, read thoughts, etc. banks would need to be a fortress in multiple ways. You'd need to defend the actual vault and you'd need to defend against, say, a random demon who decides they want your 10k gold to corrupt a mortal sometime. Change Shape, Charm Person, 'hmmm you want to loan 5k? Alright, seems legit', rinse, repeat, Greater Teleport, enjoy your new wealth.

A bank like this would be more of a megacorporation, I think, seeing as they'd need trackers, mages, guards, etc. for their sites. They'd probably have banking as one of the services they provide, with others revolving around the resources they've gathered to defend their gold and keep clients paying their debts.

After all, if you can't make the people likely to loan huge sums of money from just buying big weapons with it and saying "I'm level 15, screw you!" when you want to collect, then you're going to be out of money fast.

John Longarrow
2013-09-22, 05:07 AM
Three real world facts regarding banking in antiquity:
1) Banks traditionally held a persons wealth safely, and charged a fee to do so. You have 10,000gp and you don't want to leave it lying around? Put it in the safe. We charge a reasonable amount per month to make sure no one else walks off with it.

Until recently banks never paid depositors interest.

2) Lenders were often not directly associated with banks. These were wealthy individuals who's reputation could secure credit or who made a business out of lending. They charged a fairly steep rate of interested mostly tied to what they thought the borrower's ability to pay back was. If you were assured the money back, low rate. If the borrower was sketchy or a farmer, higher rate.

3) Lenders/Banks/Guilds/Wealthy individuals would often issue letters of credit. You pay the person 10,000gp. You go some where they have business dealings. You turn in your letter. You get 10,000gp (less fee).

For stocks, often an open exchange was a very risky place to put your money. More often than not you'd be swindled. Investing in businesses was almost always a private matter, generally between friends/peers/relatives. Without an unbiased organization providing oversite and a set of strict laws protecting investors stock exchanges were about as honest as a back hall gambling parlor.

Anacreon
2013-09-22, 09:33 AM
You may wish to look into Silk Road (from Expeditious Retreat Press) or some of their other texts from their Magical Medieval Society series. Although Silk Road is designed for cover overland trade routes, the underlying principals can be adapted to sea routes fairly easily.

Grain into Gold may help you build a ground up economy if you are so inclined.

Both sources are obviously 3rd party but modeling an economy is a fairly safe place to introduce 3rd party materials.

Phylion
2013-09-22, 09:25 PM
Note: In between this post and the last I realized that there is a DMG II for 3.5e. WOOPS! My advice/ideas on economy still stand, regardless.

Thanks for all of the suggestions, and I do realize that banks, to be successful, would need to be heavily guarded. This though, could come from more of a government insurance aspect to it. The reason the bank isn't robbed even though it isn't guarded very well is that the government is very powerful and crossing them is a surefire way to get yourself executed/your possessions confiscated when they catch you. And I mean WHEN, not IF, because it is just a matter of time before they run into you again. Same thing goes for a stock market. If the government has its own stakes in the stock market, like taxes dependent on the success of the stock market, they are extremely likely to police it to insure their financial wellbeing. So, all stock would require a proper government stamp or something that added a little tax of one or two gold pieces a share. No problem. The government puts the money into hiring some kickbutt mages to watch over the entire thing. This all said, this brings me into some points that I said I would post on later.

6. Guilds
So, guilds are complicated. They are basically medieval unions, ensuring the quality/distribution/cost of products they produce. So, a guild works very oddly in the D&D universe. The basic idea is simple, if you enlist in a guild, you must pay a portion of your profit into the guild :(. However, in return, the guild offers you wonderful services that can potentially increase your profit margin/check. They can also establish new relationships that would otherwise be unavailable to the PCs. Guilds aren't intended to be cut and dry institutions with fixed effects.

7.Owning a Bank
Forget this idea.

8.Becoming the Owner of a Company Through Stock
I figure the guy that has to spend the time per week to make the profit check should be the guy with the majority of the stock, to keep things simple. Although, it is perfectly possible that an acting Owner is established by the board of stockholders.

9.Making Decisions for a Business
I want to keep the decisionmaking process as simple as could be. In it's most simple form, major decisions should be made on the grounds of who owns the most stock. Whenever a meeting is called, a set of guidelines is established by the person holding the most stock for voting. He/she listens to all of the different opinions of the assembled group of stockholders and lays out a range of options for stockholders to vote on. If the stockholders feel like the options do not accurately reflect their opinions, they may say so when casting their vote and if this alternate vote is the majority then the options must be redrawn. And so voting continues until a decision is made. A person receives 1 vote for each share of stock they have, for a total of 1000 (or whatever # you choose to split your stock into). The option with the most votes at then end of decisionmaking is enacted.

10. Potential Pitfalls
Obviously there include several different ways a business could be messed up: robbery, being muscled out, etc. I believe that the DMG2 has methods for determining random events that might occur to a business, so I am not looking terribly much into how this will work out. Apart from those, I have already posted on global economy affecting events, so...

11. Illegal Businesses
DMG II covers this I believe.

12.Taxes
Detailed in DMGII, though you could have some fun with it.

13. Interplanar Trade
GO nuts on suggestions.

Thanks again.

Phylion
2013-09-22, 09:33 PM
Oh, and in response to the thing about the time in between levels, although spending 3+ months training might not make sense from the perspective of say a rogue, it makes bundles of sense when you consider people like Wizards or other spellcasters.
Plus, it makes for good filler to run a business so even if it is not standard I plan on adding it.

John Longarrow
2013-09-22, 10:28 PM
Phylion,

Major item on selling stock is that few people ever use stock to raise capitol unless there is a fair amount of risk in the underlying business. If you know you can make money, you just start a company and grow it. If it costs a lot of money and requires a fair amount of risk (trans-oceanic trade/rail roads being major examples) you sell shares so that you don't loose all your wealth if something happens to the business.

Most of our current large corporations are very different from the ones we had fifty to a hundred years ago.

You will also want to include insurance. If the party is raising funds to adventure, they may be willing to put some money down to make sure they survive. An adjudicator would have to be briefed on what they are doing, then they can decide an appropriate cost for insurance and what the pay out would be. Means the party may be able to pony up 2500gp to cover bringing a party member back to life if they die during the adventure.