LGBTAitp #42: Better Than Skittles/The Meaning of Life!

[TaiLiu]

Hello, all! This is the forty-second incarnation of the LGBTAitP thread! The thread is to support, celebrate and discuss anything that falls outside the bounds of what is hetero/cisnormative.

It is first of all a support thread, and then an education thread.

If you want answers about some of the more difficult and trigger inducing aspects of LGBTA, there are a number of people listed below who can answer questions - though no one should feel like they can't post their question more publicly because of this.

Please note that although the title of the thread names only the Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, and Asexual communities, it is intended as an all inclusive environment. Everyone is welcome. L, G, B,T, A, Q, I, A, N, V, P, R, Q, Ω, ♅, all combinations of those letters and symbols, everyone. As long as they behave themselves.

If you have a question or two about LGBTA+ matters, you can ask it here! You can ask for advice and support in here. And you can just hang out with all of the lovely people, too, if you like.

In addition, many members are willing to give private advice one on one, either through email or PM. The best way to do this is asking for PM help in thread, or else to PM one of the following people (Please note that some of these people may not be available at all times.):

Name: Especially familiar with the topic(s) of
KenderWizard: General/basics, gender and feminism, bisexuality
Musashi: General/basics, asexuality/demisexuality, depression
noparlpf: General/basics, asexuality, greysexuality, biology, Skype
Lea Plath: Genderfluidity
Lycunadari: Genderqueer and agendered
Eldest: General/basics, bisexuality, polyamory, pansexuality will Skype(voice if needed, no video)
HMS Sophia: Trans stuff (esp hormones)
Lix Lorn: General/basics
Tanail: Trans stuff (esp emotional issues), Skype(no voice or video, however)
Absol197: Gender identity issues
Warkitty: Academic/technical discussions
Lentrax: General/basics, depression, bullying
Wormwood74: Transgender legal issues, transgender outside contacts
Astrella: GSRM rights, feminism, trans stuff, Skype
Asteron Questar: Relationships, depression
Mystic Muse: Skype-y goodness.
Socratov: Skype-ness
Chess435: Skype
Irish Musician: PM, Rants/Venting
Metditto: PM/Skype for L, T, GQ, BDSM(Off-thread or Spoiler Triggered), demisexual, feminism, therapy, depression, dissociative identities
inuyasha: Shoulder on which to cry, someone to listen
Partysan: PM/Skype, polyamory, pansexuality, BDSM(Off-thread or Spoiler Triggered), Rants/Venting
TaiLiu: General Transgender information, transphobia.

Some people are also willing to talk off-board, through Skype or email or other means; this is especially useful if your question involves board-forbidden topics such as religion or politics. Also, we can't (and ethically shouldn't!) give medical advice. If you need medical advice, please see a professional!

Here are the rules of this thread!


Everyone is welcome. Let's try to keep from seeming otherwise.
Keep this topic free of politics and religion. (so, don't violate the board rules, please.)
It's beyond the scope of this thread to discuss whether LGBT is "Right." (And really, most discussions probably should avoid moralizing too much anyway)
Please refrain from posting sexually explicit content. (Keep it friendly as well as board safe :smallsmile:)
If you know something's a trigger for someone, please put it in a spoiler with a relevant tag in front of it.


Here are the links for the previous threads, where much of use or interest may be found:
LGBT people in the playground (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=62225)

LGBT people in the playground - part II (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=86066)

LGBTitp - part III (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5663140#post5663140)

LGBTitp 4: We are a family? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=129235)

LGBTitp - Part Five (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=143424)

LGBTitp - Part Six (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=147832)

LGBTitp - Part Seven (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=157312)

LGBTitp - Part Eight (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=167395)

LGBTitp - Part Nine (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=172747)

LGBTAitp - Part Ten (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=177253)

LGBTAitp - Part Eleven (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=181683)

LGBTAitp - Part Twelve (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10335967#)

LGBTAitp - Part Thirteen (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=192714)

LGBTAitp - Part Fourteen (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=200329)

LGBTAitp - Part Fifteen (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=207987)

LGBTAitp - Part Sixteen (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11820872#)

LGBTAitp - Part Seventeen (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=219966)

LGBTAitp - Part Eighteen! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=223792)

LGBTAitp - Part Nineteen (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=227182)

LGBTAitp - Part Twenty - Critical Hit! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12613347)

LGBTAitp - Part Twenty-One - BLACKJACK! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=233833)

LGBTAitP Part 22: The Best There Is (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=236828)

LGBTAitP Part 23: Et tu, ~Bianca? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=239610)

LGBTAitP: Alphabet Soup-with 24 different Vitamins! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13243754)

LGBTAitP part 25: Doing Away With Subtitles (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=249030)

LGBTAitP 26: No Time For Snappy Titles (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=253352)

LGBTAitP 27: Of Shoes, and Ships, and Sealing Wax (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=256951)

LGBTAitP #28: Come Taste the Rainbow! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=14110484#post14110484)

LGBTAitP #29: The Rainbow Outreach Program (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=262926)

LGBTAitP 30: Free Cuddles (Enquire Within) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=267638)

LGBTAitP #31: Cuddles Are On Back Order. Have Some Snuggles! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=272099)

LGBTAitp #32: The Great Plushie Invasion! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=275839)

LGBTAitp #33: The Thread at the End of the Rainbow! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=278799)

LGTAitP #34: <3!! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=281021)

LGBTAitp #35: What Midlife Crisis? :3 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=284121)

LGBTAitp #36: May Contain Bites! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=286734)

LGBTAitP #37: Once upon a time... (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=288693)

LGBTAitP #38: Once More With Feeling!! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=290671)

LGBTAitP #38: Making Your Way in the World Today.... (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=293173)

LGBTAitP #40: Technicolour Partyboat (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=296997)

LGBTAitp #41 - Imprecise Terminology Supercenter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=299934)





And, for reference, here is a list of commonly used words and definitions by our community. Please understand that this list is currently undergoing construction right now. Any contributions to the list are appreciated.
Lagerbeta: A fine brewski to be drunk by queers and allies.
LGBT: Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Trans*
Trans*: Transsexual and Transgender
LGBTA: LGBT+Asexual/Allies
QUILTBAG:
Q - Queer and Questioning
U - Unidentified
I - Intersex
L - Lesbian
T - Transgender, Transexual
B - Bisexual
A - Asexual
G - Gay, Genderqueer

Allies: Hetereosexual-Cisgender people who support equality for sexual, gender, and romantic minorities.
Male-to-Female (MtF): Someone who was assigned male at birth, but is female. (AKA: trans woman)
Female-to-Male (FtM): Someone who was assigned female at birth, but is male. (AKA: trans man)
Genderqueer (GQ): Someone who is not of a binary gender; someone who is not male or female.
Cisgender (CG): Somebody whose gender and sex align.
Transgender/Transsexual: Two words commonly used in reference to a person whose sex(body) and gender(mind) are at odds or do not match. Transsexual can also be used to refer specifically to someone who desires to change their physical traits to align with their gender.
HRT: Hormone replacement therapy. MtF's take more progestrogens and oestrogens and FtM's take more testosterone (I think?)
SRS: Sex Reassignment Surgery: Surgery to replace/transform a vagina into a penis, or vice versa depending on direction. Mastectomies or plastic surgery may be used on breasts.
FFS: Facial Feminization Surgery: Surgery to reduce chin/nose/cheekbones. Uncommon.
AFAB/AMAB: Assigned Female/Male at Birth
FAAB/MAAB: Female/Male Assigned at Birth.

Man: A cisman or transman. Male.
Woman: A ciswoman or transwoman. Female.
Androgyne: Gender Identity with male and female aspects.
Genderfluid: Someone who fluctuates between different genders.
Agendered: Someone who lacks a gender.
Third-gendered: Someone who fits in a local society's third gender, usually male performing female tasks, occasionally vice versa.
Masculine: Something generally associated with men.
Feminine: Something generally associated with women.

Lesbian: A woman who is attracted to women.
Gay: A man who is attracted to men.
Homosexual: A person who is attracted to members of their gender.
Heterosexual: A person who is attracted to members of the opposite gender.
Androsexual: A person who is attracted to men.
Gynosexual: A person who is attracted to women.
Bisexual: Complicated, but to use noparlpf definition: 1. attracted to two genders; 2. attracted to one's own gender and another gender; 3. attracted to various genders; 4. attracted to people regardless of gender; 5. ask the person who says they're bi what exactly they mean by that.
Pansexual: A person who is attracted to people regardless of gender.
Asexual: A person who does not feel any/some sexual attraction.
Demisexual: A person who is sexually attracted to someone(s) they have formed an intense emotional relationship with.
Polyamorous: A person who is interested in a relationship with more than one person.

Sexual Orientation: How one identifies who they are attracted to.
Gender Identity: How one feels inside society's idea of "man, woman, or other". (GI)
Gender Expression: How one expresses their GI to society. (GE)
Significant Other(s): Person you are in a relationship with. (SO)

Webcomics that touch on... Well, everything related to the thread.
Venus Envy. (http://www.venusenvycomic.com/) Long dead webcomic. The creator has chosen not to continue it and move forward in life.
Rain. (http://rain.thecomicseries.com/comics/first/) A story of a MtF girl in high school.
Khaos Komix. (http://www.khaoskomix.com/)As the creator puts it(from his site): "A complete GLBTWTFBBQ comic about gender and sexuality. (Trigger warnings for EVERYTHING and nothing is safe for work.)"
Always Raining Here. (http://alwaysraininghere.com/index.php/first-page/) "Adrian is heartsick, Carter is horny. This is a story about their misadventures as awkward teenagers as they fumble through unrequited romances."
Tripping over you. (http://trippingoveryou.com/comic/gmorning-sunshine/)An awkward blind date leads to better options.
Questionable Content. (http://www.questionablecontent.net/) The LGBTA characters are well done, and not stereotypes.
What's normal anyway. (http://whatsnormalanyway.net/?p=93) An FtM webcomic. Seems decent so far.
Princess. (http://the-princess.funonthe.net/) A webcomic.
Twokinds. (http://twokinds.keenspot.com/) Keveak: "It generally portrays GRSM matters positively and is quite a nice tale overall."
Misfile (Misfile.com) The Rose Dragon: "Ash is a young boy who, as a result of a screw-up in Heaven, gets stuck in a girl's body in a life he doesn't recognize, and has to deal with the changes and challenges of his new body while trying to get back his old life. Supernatural hijinks and car racing are involved."
I know I missed a few webcomics, and if anyone finds more, feel free to PM them to me with a brief description, and I will add them.


The Brand New LGBTA Arts & Crafts Thread! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=288941)

[TaiLiu]

Could we define the words gender and sex in that list? There is sexual orientation, but not sex as in the scientific definition. Gender Identity and Expression are defined as well and I love that it is referenced from a 'local culture' as gender is a cultural construct.

The only reason I ask is because many of the terms such as homosexual and heterosexual, being the most obvious ones, are defined by 'gender'. I'm definitely not one to speak on what precisely these terms encapsulate, but aren't homosexual and heterosexual generally determined by 'sex'? As a gay man, I'm not particularly attracted to butch women, which would be women that exhibit many of my local culture's male gender traits.

I don't mean any offense, and I could be completely wrong, but I have never identified those terms with any meaning towards gender. I know plenty of heterosexual couples where one or the other eschews traditional gender roles.
Hm. I believe you are confusing gender with gender expression, or gender roles. Gender is not these concepts.

[Alanzeign]

I suppose I am having a hard time separating Gender Identity, Gender Expression, and Sex. Can you elaborate on these for me? I feel like a bum, I should probably know the difference by now. It may clear up some confusion for me. :smallredface:

[TaiLiu]

I suppose I am having a hard time separating Gender Identity, Gender Expression, and Sex. Can you elaborate on these for me? I feel like a bum, I should probably know the difference by now. It may clear up some confusion for me. :smallredface:
It's easier if I just link you a page for the definitions, so, here.
(trans-fusion.blogspot.com/2011/07/sex-and-gender-terminology.html?)

[Sabeki]

*Sniiiiiiffff*
Oh, that new thread smell. It seems most are posting in the new Arts and Crafts section though :smallsmile:

[TaiLiu]

*Sniiiiiiffff*
Oh, that new thread smell. It seems most are posting in the new Arts and Crafts section though :smallsmile:
Heh. Those are old posts, comrade. :smalltongue:

[Sabeki]

Oh. Woops :smallredface:

[SiuiS]

SiuiS, it's actually recommend against getting hair removal done down there, as the Suporn method removes the hair follicles during the surgery.

Interesting, since the others recommend it.


They also recommend against getting an Orchie, but won't be bothered too much as long as the scrotal tissue remains behind.

that is why timing it to coincide with the necessary windfalls to achieve apotheosis quickly is necessary, yes.



Still not sure how much hormones are... But if it noticeably impacts the cost...

I would mostly be interested for the effects during an apocalyptic scenario. I'd also go in for laser eye surgery, except having my eye held open while someone shines a light in it is a literal nightmare and is causing me physical pain even now, just thinking about it...


Hormones are not super expensive especially with insurance coverage, which tends to apply for transfemale HRT because it's the same stuff menopausal cis women / cis women with hormonal problems take. I'm paying about 30 euros right now per three months, though I think mine are partially covered.

Many of us don't have insurance coverage, though. :<


Uh, hi. I think I may have dipped into this thread a few years ago, back when I was flightier and also had less reliable internet.

I'm J (nersxe is fine, too), and the gender identifier at the left is mostly so I don't have to go about explaining things to people. I'm pretty sure I'm a dude, but I might be fluid. I enjoy cross-dressing on occasion, though I've tried to minimize it because it makes things difficult with my friends. (Sort of a "if you're dressing like a chick sometimes, are you sure you're a dude?" kind of thing.)

And uh, dnd is awesome?

I'm not usually this awkward, I swear. I'm actually very charming in person a;lkjasd;fklja

Hello! Stay a while, and Listen!
Sorry, just had Deckard on the mind...

[Alanzeign]

Thank you, that is an incredibly informative article!

I don't know that I agree with all of its definitions, but it will definitely help me talk to others in the future.

[nersxe]

Hello! Stay a while, and Listen!
Sorry, just had Deckard on the mind...

The noises that just came out of my mouth are inhuman. I reinstalled DIILOD a few days ago, and modded it to within an inch of its life. I've been playing it compulsively.

[Astrella]

Many of us don't have insurance coverage, though. :<

I did a bit of poking around on online pharmacies and what I take would come down to 30-40 dollars a month ordered online without any coverage. Sorry. :c

-----

Hi again Juniper!

Also, hi Lentrax, nice to hear something from you again.

-----

My dad offered to try and start calling me Lena... and I'm feeling awful about it and I couldn't even say yes to it. I just feel guilty cause so many of my trans friends have a lot of problems with their parents and it just feels so darn unfair. (And I don't think it'd go over well with my mum...)

[golentan]

Okay, I need a sanity check, and I'm not sure whether it's on me or them. I respect the judgement of the community here on gender issues, so I'd like you guys to tell me whether I'm out of line on this one.

My friend who I will call B, who last I know about is genderqueer leaning masculine posted a complaint to facebook about being asked marital status by a stranger despite presenting butch. It came out that in the course of an unrelated conversation initiated by B, the question of whether they were taken was raised, and what followed the complaint was a lot of talk boiling down to how inappropriate this was and creepy men are the worst and etc. I pointed out that B's idea of "polite conversation" involved a lot of behavior that might, to the inexperienced eye, look like flirting. Mostly directed at women, but also at men. As in, we have never hung out in public without B hitting on a waitress or stranger. And that no amount of butchness would prevent probing about interest if the social cues for flirting were initiated by B. Cue a lot of talk about victim blaming and talking around calling me a callous woman hater. I replied as such:


Wait, victim blaming? I am absolutely opposed to victim blaming in assault and harassment. Assault, harassment, catcalls, leering, etc. not cool. Asking a question that is substantially less than "would you go on a date with me," as part of an existing conversation is, at worst, a social faux pas. If we are discussing victimhood and setting the creep bar at what amounts to "How upset would you be at me if I asked permission to ask permission," the antenna need to be checked here. And I bring up this, and the flirty thing, because the first time we met you got upset at me for flirting with you after you followed me to my room uninvited, sat on my bed, and fluttered your eyelashes at me to request cookies. Strangers talk, it's how anyone becomes not strangers after all, and they often flirt as part of that, and there is nothing wrong with that from an abstract point. And the form this takes is often based on social signals, and I'm saying you can send some very mixed signals, and mayhaps you could be a bit more willing to hit the "buzz off" button without becoming so upset about it unless they continue to not buzz off or start genuinely creeping on you. Someone catcalls you on the street, I'm totally on your side if you want to kick them in the shins. And to avoid a flame war, that's the last I'll say on the subject.

For the record, the reply to that last was as such:


But telling B that their body language is what causes these creepy situations is exactly that-- victim blaming. Shifting responsibility for inappropriate behavior from the person who behaved that way to the person who is experiencing that behavior. Why is it B's responsibility to change their behavior? We do not owe other people our life stories, our time, or our body language every damn time we go out for gas.

Also a post by B I shan't share claiming that no initial flirtation was initiated. But having watched B do all but jump the counter to get at a barrista without realizing that anything that might be considered flirtation I am inclined to take that with a grain of salt. As I said in my post, I didn't want to get into a flame war, but I'm not done with this train of thought. Am I totally out of line here? I feel that this particular complaint is frivolous, and that the guy as described was not out of line, and if anything the whole thing serves to detract from legitimate complaints, but if there is a consensus against me I want to know.

[nersxe]

I'm confused right out of the gate on this one, golentan. What's wrong with asking someone about their marital status despite them presenting butch? Are butch people not allowed to marry?

[golentan]

B felt that it was hitting on them in a creepy way, that it was invasively personal, and that it was a sign of misgendering.

[SiuiS]

Golly, I am with you on this one.

There is a point where one has to stop and realize that :"blame" is not important, nor is it binary (ie, no "if he is to blame then I cannot be to blame"). It's not about blame, it's about responsibility. And to a point, yes, you are responsible for your own presentation and the immediate ripples that causes. This is why 'watch your language' is an acceptable rebuke.

Flirting, flirting is weird. Flirting is a conversational art. But so is excessive searing and slang. One is as responsible for immediate results from flirting as they are from swearing and slang.

In the context of flirtation and unwanted advances, you will have trouble because this is along-standing issue, wherein legitimate complaints about creepy folks have been met with "it is your fault". Unfortunately, this has been taken to mean that this is always victim blaming - even when it is, indeed, the "victim's" fault. I would point out that one cannot blame a victim until a victim exists; unwanted attention alone does not make you a victim until it meets certain criteria, usually pressing forward after making it known you aren't interested. But you do have to make that known, because someone asking if more is acceptable in a social scenario is not victimizing (on it's face), it is human interaction. It's a delicate grain.


on misgendering: it may have been, but there's indignation and there's fixing the problem. Would no this be the perfect time to say "I am not a female right now and would not be interested in heterosexual relations with you?" And what if the guy was bi, and was interested in B for his manliness?

it's entitlement, pure and simple.

[Lauren]

TaiLiu:


Sexual Orientation: How one identifies who they are attracted to. (SO)
Gender Identity: How one feels inside society's idea of "man, woman, or other". (GI)
Gender Expression: How one expresses their GI to society. (GE)
Significant Other(s): Person you are in a relationship with. (SO)

Could it be an issue for some people to have two things abbreviated to SO? I mean, I know I read for context, but I'm also familiar with the abbreviations, and new threadsters might not be.


Bisexual: A person who is attracted to two genders (usually men and women, sometimes transgender instead of one of those).

I've also been hearing 'their own gender and other than their own gender' of late, specifically because there are some people who want to emphasise the fact that people who choose to identify as bi do not necessarily believe in the notion of gender as binary.

I'd actually be interested to hear from the thread at large as to what their thoughts are on that (please don't let me be opening a big ol' can of worms here!).

[nersxe]

B felt that it was hitting on them in a creepy way, that it was invasively personal, and that it was a sign of misgendering.

I wasn't there, but I'm not sure I agree. I have seen men hit on by persons asking about their marital status. As to whether asking about your marital status is invasively personal, well, YMMV.

[mistformsquirrl]

Something that brightened up my rather dour mood -

A beautiful marriage proposal. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4HpWQmEXrM) - I know over the top marriage proposals can be well... over the top, but this one felt incredibly genuine. I dunno, maybe it's just me, I liked it.

*edit* I should caution that as with anything on Youtube, don't read the comments - I haven't done so, I'm just automatically assuming they'll be the usual cesspool; I just don't want anything to ruin the beauty of the video itself.

[Astrella]

I've also been hearing 'their own gender and other than their own gender' of late, specifically because there are some people who want to emphasise the fact that people who choose to identify as bi do not necessarily believe in the notion of gender as binary.

I'd actually be interested to hear from the thread at large as to what their thoughts are on that (please don't let me be opening a big ol' can of worms here!).

I think you can't really put it down to a single definition, because what being bisexual means for one person is going to be different from what it means for another. So like, it's a short hand that has a bit of a fuzzy definition but if you get into detail you're going to have to explain better what it means for you anyways I feel.

[golentan]

I'd actually be interested to hear from the thread at large as to what their thoughts are on that (please don't let me be opening a big ol' can of worms here!).

I'm bisexual. I'm not attracted to gender. I'm attracted to sex. I like certain gender attributes in people I'm looking to date, but it doesn't really play when we're talking about the physical act and the associated parts of the brain. The colossal cluster-whoopsie that I jokingly refer to as my sexuality is wired to like body types ranging from the androgynous male to the very female, reaching maximum enjoyment somewhere around androgynous female. I've never noticed any real difference between the men and women in my life as people save what's culturally acceptable for them to express, and as for wrappings a dress and trousers are about equally fun to remove.

God, I'm phrasing everything in the worst way possible lately. I blame the fact I haven't gotten a full night's sleep in about a week.

[Coidzor]

B felt that it was hitting on them in a creepy way, that it was invasively personal, and that it was a sign of misgendering.

Like, the phrasing of the way they asked about whether they were married was misgendering or just asking if they were married was misgendering? :smallconfused: Because those are the only ways I can figure to read that and both of them are pretty off the wall.

Honestly it just sounds like they have a double standard both for what they can say and do to others vs. what others can say and do to them (granted, that's to be expected, humans are **** at the golden rule) as well as for what is acceptable behavior for women and what is acceptable behavior for men (even more so than usual, that is) (No idea about people who are neither men nor women, not enough for me to take a stab at that one.)

If B isn't comfortable with men responding to their flirtation, then they should probably not be flirting with men. Now, if B was getting sexually harassed in response to minor flirtation, that'd be different. If it were street harassment, that'd be different. Not wanting attention while actively asking for attention in the way one is interacting with others suggests that one needs to be more aware of one's actions, tone, and phraseology and the meaning they carry.

It's not about blame, which is a ridiculous way to approach the issue, it's about taking effective steps to cut down on uncomfortable situations.


Could it be an issue for some people to have two things abbreviated to SO? I mean, I know I read for context, but I'm also familiar with the abbreviations, and new threadsters might not be.

I must admit, I've not really seen people shorten sexual orientation to SO before. :smallconfused: SO is the much more prevalent form, granted, that's to be expected since it's kinda ubiquitous in our society since it's a lot more tasteful than lover and covers more situations without being taken as directly stating that you're sexually interfacing.

I wouldn't know if sexual orientation really needs to be abbreviated for that matter. :smallconfused:


I've also been hearing 'their own gender and other than their own gender' of late, specifically because there are some people who want to emphasise the fact that people who choose to identify as bi do not necessarily believe in the notion of gender as binary.

I'd actually be interested to hear from the thread at large as to what their thoughts are on that (please don't let me be opening a big ol' can of worms here!).

Honestly I find that it should just be someone who is theoretically attracted to all sexes of human. Direct and straight to the point, cutting to the heart of the issue, as well as preserving the parallels with defining homosexuality and heterosexuality as attraction to the same sex and attraction to the opposite sex. Invoking gender usually leads to bi vs. pan fighting as I recall.


it's entitlement, pure and simple.

I dunno, it sounds more like pigheadedness to me. :smallconfused: Hopefully pigheaded doesn't have some kind of unfortunate implication which I've forgotten.

[golentan]

Something that brightened up my rather dour mood -

A beautiful marriage proposal. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4HpWQmEXrM) - I know over the top marriage proposals can be well... over the top, but this one felt incredibly genuine. I dunno, maybe it's just me, I liked it.

*edit* I should caution that as with anything on Youtube, don't read the comments - I haven't done so, I'm just automatically assuming they'll be the usual cesspool; I just don't want anything to ruin the beauty of the video itself.

Comments, at a quick glance, actually seemed pretty good. That was cute, and I think I speak for all parts of me that if I ever find the right person, I hope they never, ever do something similar for me. I'd have melted through the floor with embarrassment about 5 seconds into the song, and by the end my embarrassed blushing would be seriously competing with the surface of the sun as far as heat goes.

[SiuiS]

Could it be an issue for some people to have two things abbreviated to SO? I mean, I know I read for context, but I'm also familiar with the abbreviations, and new threadsters might not be.


It's come up before, but most people tend to just ask what the other means, so it's relatively harmless.


I'd actually be interested to hear from the thread at large as to what their thoughts are on that (please don't let me be opening a big ol' can of worms here!).

it's something I can't be bothered with worrying about, mesel'. While there are loads of fun debates, I've filed it under non-important. :smallsmile:


Like, the phrasing of the way they asked about whether they were married was misgendering or just asking if they were married was misgendering? :smallconfused: Because those are the only ways I can figure to read that and both of them are pretty off the wall.

Making assumptions here, but;


B is assigned-female-at-birth. B was asked towards by a heterosexual male. B identified as predominantly male at the time. Hence, this straight guy assuming B was female because B's body was assigned that way, is misgendering.

I get entitlement from the idea that someone must be able to read your mind or else they are in the wrong for making a casual social faux pas that they may not even be aware is a literal possibility. No, that's factually incorrect, I'm just in a mental fog. Sorry ^^"


I must admit, I've not really seen people shorten sexual orientation to SO before. :smallconfused: SO is the much more prevalent form, granted, that's to be expected since it's kinda ubiquitous in our society since it's a lot more tasteful than lover and covers more situations without being taken as directly stating that you're sexually interfacing.

I wouldn't know if sexual orientation really needs to be abbreviated for that matter. :smallconfused:

Only ever in this thread, although I believe it comes up in blogs and such which deal more heavily with orientation, sexism, gender and such. The needs of the medium and all.

[The Succubus]

My dad offered to try and start calling me Lena... and I'm feeling awful about it and I couldn't even say yes to it. I just feel guilty cause so many of my trans friends have a lot of problems with their parents and it just feels so darn unfair. (And I don't think it'd go over well with my mum...)

It really sounds to me like your dad wants to make a determined effort to understand and support you. He's started accepting the idea that he has a daughter and from what you've told me in the past, this is a huge leap forward for him. It's definitely something you want to positively encourage, even if its just when the two of you are alone to begin with. I know you feel a little guilty that things are finally improving for you at last but suppose it was the other way around - one of your friends had a dad that was starting to use the right name and pronoun. You'd be encouraging them to build on that relationship with their parent rather than feel guilty, right? =)

[Mono Vertigo]

@Astrella: what Succubus said. Also, you should never feel guilty for getting something you deserve. That's acknowledgment and basic respect, you deserved that, everybody does. If we all started feeling guilty over things we had that many others in the world (or just among your acquaintances) didn't, then we can all start feeling guilty for having food to eat whenever we're hungry, for having a regular income, for having loving family members, for having no grave or permanent health problem, etc.
And [REDACTED] your mom. Sorry if that offends you*, but that's how I see it. She's done enough to put you down. She better has to learn how to deal with it now. Her turn to make efforts and compromise and behave like an adult.


*yes, that is a case of "I'm sorry if you feel offended, I'm not sorry for saying it". I feel this is a situation where that point of view is justified.

[The Succubus]

Another to look at it is that if she sees your dad calling you Lena, especially once you've both gotten used and it seems natural, she might be more open to the idea herself. Not 100% guaranteeing that will happen but with stuff like this its important to have positive goals to work towards.

[Heliomance]

Right, below is a rough draft of the altered definitions. These are minor changes, and I have not added any new words and definitions, though I plan to. (Seriously, a definition of transgender is missing from our list.) Also, I am currently sleep-deprived, and almost certainly skipped over some words.

Please assist and add words, change definitions, and help make our community's official list of words and phrases as inclusive and accurate as possible. Thank you. :smallsmile:

Slightly Altered Words And Definitions:
Lagerbeta: A fine brewski to be drunk by queers and allies.
LGBT: Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Trans*
Trans*: Transsexual and Transgender
LGBTA: LGBT+Asexual/Allies
QUILTBAG:
Q - Queer and Questioning
U - Unidentified
I - Intersex
L - Lesbian
T - Transgender, Transexual
B - Bisexual
A - Asexual
G - Gay, Genderqueer

Allies: Hetereosexual-Cisgender people who support equality for sexual, gender, and romantic minorities.
Male-to-Female (MtF): Someone who was assigned male at birth, but is female. (AKA: trans woman)
Female-to-Male (FtM): Someone who was assigned female at birth, but is male. (AKA: trans man)
Genderqueer (GQ): Someone who is not of a binary gender; someone who is not male or female.
Cisgender (CG): Somebody whose gender and sex align.
Transsexual (TS): Sex and gender disparity.
HRT: Hormone replacement therapy. MtF's take more progestrogens and oestrogens and FtM's take more testosterone (I think?)
SRS: Sex Reassignment Surgery: Surgery to replace/transform a vagina into a penis, or vice versa depending on direction. Mastectomies or plastic surgery may be used on breasts.
FFS: Facial Feminization Surgery: Plastic surgery to reduce chin/nose/cheekbones. Uncommon.
AFAB/AMAB: Assigned Female/Male at Birth
FAAB/MAAB: Female/Male Assigned at Birth.


Man: A cisman or transman. Male.
Woman: A ciswoman or transwoman. Female.
Androgyne: Gender Identity with male and female aspects.
Genderfluid: Someone who fluctuates between different genders.
Agendered: Someone who lacks a gender.
Third-gendered: Someone who fits in a local society's third gender, usually male performing female tasks, occasionally vice versa.
Masculine: Something generally associated with men.
Feminine: Something generally associated with women.

Lesbian: A woman who is attracted to women.
Gay: A man who is attracted to men.
Homosexual: A person who is attracted to members of their gender.
Heterosexual: A person who is attracted to members of the opposite gender.
Bisexual: A person who is attracted to two genders (usually men and women, sometimes transgender instead of one of those).
Pansexual: A person who is attracted to people regardless of gender.
Asexual: A person who does not feel any/some sexual attraction.
Demisexual: A person who is sexually attracted to someone(s) they have formed an intense emotional relationship with.
Polyamorous: A person who is interested in a relationship with more than one person.
Radosexual: A person who is only attracted to rad people.
Pomosexual: A person who avoids SO labels.

Sexual Orientation: How one identifies who they are attracted to. (SO)
Gender Identity: How one feels inside society's idea of "man, woman, or other". (GI)
Gender Expression: How one expresses their GI to society. (GE)
Significant Other(s): Person you are in a relationship with. (SO)

We're still missing andro/gynosexual. And as an informative post, I'd recommend removing radosexual and pomosexual, as they're not actual things, they're jokes and don't belong in a list presented for the purpose of clarification and education.

[KenderWizard]

My dad offered to try and start calling me Lena... and I'm feeling awful about it and I couldn't even say yes to it. I just feel guilty cause so many of my trans friends have a lot of problems with their parents and it just feels so darn unfair. (And I don't think it'd go over well with my mum...)

Oh, sweetie, it's your name. Of course it's okay if your dad tries to use it. It's not your fault that other people have a harder time, nor is it up to you to make your dad's behaviour more palatable to your mam. It is unfair, but making yourself unhappy isn't the way to solve that. If anything, having more examples of parents who deal with this the correct way, by trying to help, is what will eventually trickle down to making trans identities more socially "acceptable". Which is also unfair, and also not your fault. Be kind to yourself, Lena, honey.



I've also been hearing 'their own gender and other than their own gender' of late, specifically because there are some people who want to emphasise the fact that people who choose to identify as bi do not necessarily believe in the notion of gender as binary.

I'd actually be interested to hear from the thread at large as to what their thoughts are on that (please don't let me be opening a big ol' can of worms here!).

I identify as bi and my definition of bi is "attracted my own gender and not my own gender". Although if I'm talking to LGBT-uneducated people, I might say "attracted to girls and boys" to make the conversation simpler! As far as I can tell, bi and pan are functionally identical and only exist as two separate words so people can get involved in pointless arguments.


We're still missing andro/gynosexual. And as an informative post, I'd recommend removing radosexual and pomosexual, as they're not actual things, they're jokes and don't belong in a list presented for the purpose of clarification and education.

I agree with that!

Also, minor thing, the opposite of a mastectomy or breast reduction is called breast augmentation. I think that's clearer than saying "plastic surgery", which, as we discussed last thread, is an extremely wide field! :smallwink:

[Philemonite]

Hello new thread.

So, I got stuck going from evening to morning shift on Mabon.:smallfrown:
And I completely forgot about it.

And radio decided I should be depressed so it's all Dido and Sophie Ellis Bextor.

Hope everyone else is having a better day than I am.

[tassaron]

As far as I can tell, bi and pan are functionally identical and only exist as two separate words so people can get involved in pointless arguments.

You're my new favourite poster. :smallbiggrin:

Unrelated good news: At this rate it's looking like I'll definitely have all my ID changed by the end of the year.

[Eldest]

Something that brightened up my rather dour mood -

A beautiful marriage proposal. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4HpWQmEXrM) - I know over the top marriage proposals can be well... over the top, but this one felt incredibly genuine. I dunno, maybe it's just me, I liked it.

*edit* I should caution that as with anything on Youtube, don't read the comments - I haven't done so, I'm just automatically assuming they'll be the usual cesspool; I just don't want anything to ruin the beauty of the video itself.

I can happily say that the comments are good for the first four pages, with the worst being somebody that says he can recognize true love when he sees it and will let it be.
That's the worst comment. On youtube. :smallsmile:

[noparlpf]

My dad offered to try and start calling me Lena... and I'm feeling awful about it and I couldn't even say yes to it. I just feel guilty cause so many of my trans friends have a lot of problems with their parents and it just feels so darn unfair. (And I don't think it'd go over well with my mum...)

I can't find words. So, go see what Succubus and Musashi and Kender said. Yeah.


Okay, I need a sanity check, and I'm not sure whether it's on me or them. I respect the judgement of the community here on gender issues, so I'd like you guys to tell me whether I'm out of line on this one.

My friend who I will call B, who last I know about is genderqueer leaning masculine posted a complaint to facebook about being asked marital status by a stranger despite presenting butch. It came out that in the course of an unrelated conversation initiated by B, the question of whether they were taken was raised, and what followed the complaint was a lot of talk boiling down to how inappropriate this was and creepy men are the worst and etc. I pointed out that B's idea of "polite conversation" involved a lot of behavior that might, to the inexperienced eye, look like flirting. Mostly directed at women, but also at men. As in, we have never hung out in public without B hitting on a waitress or stranger. And that no amount of butchness would prevent probing about interest if the social cues for flirting were initiated by B. Cue a lot of talk about victim blaming and talking around calling me a callous woman hater. I replied as such:



For the record, the reply to that last was as such:



Also a post by B I shan't share claiming that no initial flirtation was initiated. But having watched B do all but jump the counter to get at a barrista without realizing that anything that might be considered flirtation I am inclined to take that with a grain of salt. As I said in my post, I didn't want to get into a flame war, but I'm not done with this train of thought. Am I totally out of line here? I feel that this particular complaint is frivolous, and that the guy as described was not out of line, and if anything the whole thing serves to detract from legitimate complaints, but if there is a consensus against me I want to know.

I dunno, I kind of agree with you based on the information presented.


I've also been hearing 'their own gender and other than their own gender' of late, specifically because there are some people who want to emphasise the fact that people who choose to identify as bi do not necessarily believe in the notion of gender as binary.

I'd actually be interested to hear from the thread at large as to what their thoughts are on that (please don't let me be opening a big ol' can of worms here!).

I consider bi and pan to be practically the same thing. (Except it's not one thing, it's a spectrum of things. So some people might just like men and women, some people might be into non-binary people and women, some people might be attracted to various people regardless of gender. And so on.) Plenty of people who identify as bi use the definition given for pan, so they're obviously not actually different. In my experience the whole "bisexual has bi in it so you're not accepting non-binary people" argument is usually just a case of "more tolerant than thou" and shouldn't be listened to. Just define bisexual as "1. attracted to two genders; 2. attracted to one's own gender and another gender; 3. attracted to various genders; 4. attracted to people regardless of gender; 5. ask the person who says they're bi what exactly they mean by that."


We're still missing andro/gynosexual. And as an informative post, I'd recommend removing radosexual and pomosexual, as they're not actual things, they're jokes and don't belong in a list presented for the purpose of clarification and education.

Yeah, good idea.

[Serpentine]

As far as I can tell, bi and pan are functionally identical and only exist as two separate words so people can get involved in pointless arguments.Mm. It's my opinion (cuz it matters so much :B) that pansexual is a more technically accurate version of bisexual. I don't think I've ever met a bisexual who specifically identified it as "only attracted to cismales and cisfemales, or cisfemales/males and transfemales/male, or cismales/females and intersexed people, or any other combination of pairs". Suppose it's possible you could have someone saying "I like everyone except trans people!", but I feel like that's not that likely, or at least has come from someone who hasn't thought too much about it, and I'm not sure it's any more worth its own sexuality category than people who only like Asians and redheads. Just seems like a weird separation, to me.


edit: As long as I'm expressing opinions: I like these. Pretty much the whole thing

It's easier if I just link you a page for the definitions, so, here.
(trans-fusion.blogspot.com/2011/07/sex-and-gender-terminology.html?)

[Worira]

Those are gender and sex combinations, not sexes. Being attracted to two sexes covers 99+% of people.

[Karen Lynn]

*shakes head*

They are different. Just... Augh... I don't care your opinion on bi- vs pan-. I still, and will always, identify as pan-.

[Worira]

Feel free to identify how you want, just don't tell bisexuals that they're wrong for identifying how they want.

[Karen Lynn]

Have I ever?

[Coidzor]

Definition tangent:
Mm. It's my opinion (cuz it matters so much :B) that pansexual is a more technically accurate version of bisexual. I don't think I've ever met a bisexual who specifically identified it as "only attracted to cismales and cisfemales, or cisfemales/males and transfemales/male, or cismales/females and intersexed people, or any other combination of pairs". Suppose it's possible you could have someone saying "I like everyone except trans people!", but I feel like that's not that likely, or at least has come from someone who hasn't thought too much about it, and I'm not sure it's any more worth its own sexuality category than people who only like Asians and redheads. Just seems like a weird separation, to me.

I think part of it is that when we start to single out bisexuality as the only sexuality that by default excludes trans* & intersexed people, you run into problems with that in and of itself (and the question of whether one is talking transphobia or just talking about transphobia) and why one doesn't make the the same delineation for homosexuality and heterosexuality. So either you've got to then go and split two more terms up, go back to the drawing board, or have a controversial definition just for greater contrast with the definition of pansexuality.

At least, that's what I recall from the last time it was discussed. :smallconfused:

[Worira]

Have I ever?

I dunno. Hopefully not.

[Durmatagno]

*shakes head*

They are different. Just... Augh... I don't care your opinion on bi- vs pan-. I still, and will always, identify as pan-.

^ This

On another note, I have rediscovered a great game and its eating my spare time....again.

[Karen Lynn]

I dunno. Hopefully not.

Not to my knowledge. Never have I done it intentionally.


I think part of it is that when we start to single out bisexuality as the only sexuality that by default excludes trans* & intersexed people, you run into problems with that in and of itself (and the question of whether one is talking transphobia or just talking about transphobia) and why one doesn't make the the same delineation for homosexuality and heterosexuality. So either you've got to then go and split two more terms up, go back to the drawing board, or have a controversial definition just for greater contrast with the definition of pansexuality.

At least, that's what I recall from the last time it was discussed. :smallconfused:

My experience has led to me believing there is a difference. If I assume a person is one sex, reach in their pants and find something different, I adjust my grip and technique. I don't know about a bi person.

I don't care what I find(or don't find) when I'm in bed with a person. I still have fun.

[Serpentine]

*shakes head*

They are different. Just... Augh... I don't care your opinion on bi- vs pan-. I still, and will always, identify as pan-.Yep. Did I say you couldn't? Just don't start saying that you're "attracted to minds" or whatever with the implication that people who identify as bi- are only attracted to bodies.
Also, and you don't have to elaborate if you don't want to (obviously), but if you think conclusively that "they are different", then that suggests to me that you do have your concept of what a bi person "is". Else you can't know they're "different" - a more accurate depiction of your personal orientation, sure (I covered that), but that (at least to me) is different to "different".

[Sabeki]

Attracted to minds is more of romantic attraction, is it not? Still, I think the primary difference is that pan will go with whoever they are attracted to, while bi is attracted to both sexes. It seems the same, but they are both different.

[Durmatagno]

Not to my knowledge. Never have I done it intentionally.



My experience has led to me believing there is a difference. If I assume a person is one sex, reach in their pants and find something different, I adjust my grip and technique. I don't know about a bi person.

I don't care what I find(or don't find) when I'm in bed with a person. I still have fun.

Also this too.........

*Looks around*

Sometimes I forget that most people don't think like I do, and that most people are d****. Glad to have found a forum where most people aren't.

[Coidzor]

My experience has led to me believing there is a difference. If I assume a person is one sex, reach in their pants and find something different, I adjust my grip and technique. I don't know about a bi person.

Indeed. The situation... It's... sticky. Like a wicket. I think. I'm not quite sure if that's the Britishism I want. I hope I haven't come off as overly blunt or offensive right now, I think I've been compromised by IRL drama.

So if I've been more of an ass than usual the past two days I apologize. Before then I really can't try to claim isn't just 100% Grade A Coidzor Beef though, I'm afraid.

[Serpentine]

Attracted to minds is more of romantic attraction, is it not? Still, I think the primary difference is that pan will go with whoever they are attracted to, while bi is attracted to both sexes. It seems the same, but they are both different.Except... What does that even mean? Like I said, I doubt there's that many bi people who would exclude... anyone, really, from "both sexes", and surely they "go with whoever they're attracted to" as well? In fact, I would say that I "go with whoever I'm attracted to", it just happens that most of the people I am attracted to happen to be men (mostly cis men, as far as I'm aware, but that's as likely to be because I don't really have personal enough contact with any trans men (as far as I'm aware) as an actual attraction thing). So. If pan people "will go with whoever they are attracted to", what does that say about everyone else?

Plegh. I'm doing it again, aren't I :smallsigh: Wellp, is past my bed time anyway. Thread'll probably be 4 pages on by the time I get up anyway.

[Karen Lynn]

Let's just end it. No more talky on bi- vs pan-. This is borderline argumentative, and it's never pretty every time it's brought up. If you don't think there's a difference, or you think pan- are just being pedantic and "holier than thou", then think of the difference as the name alone. If you do feel there is a real difference, regardless, then keep it. Let's not bring this up anymore. This is the third one I've been privy to.

[Sabeki]

Yes, lets stop arguing. Remember last time? Totally sucked for all involved :smallfrown:

[Karen Lynn]

The most common thing heard in the apartment: "You are both strange creatures." Coming from me, going to my two heteronormative roomies.

[Jormengand]

The most common thing heard in the apartment: "You are both strange creatures." Coming from me, going to my two heteronormative roomies.

Everyone's a strange creature really. Some of us are just cute strange creatures. :3

[Philemonite]

Everyone's a strange creature really. Some of us are just cute strange creatures. :3

Yes you are.:smallwink:

[KenderWizard]

You're my new favourite poster. :smallbiggrin:


Yay! :smallbiggrin:


See, this is _exactly_ what happens every time it comes up. And it _will_ come up, as long as people use both words, which they will, and as long as some people don't know the definitions, which they won't, because the definitions are nuanced and shades-of-grey enough that lots of people will view them as functionally identical, or very similar, or confusing.

As Serps says, you (the general you) can't make statements about pan being different to bi without implying what you think bi means. So say it. It's fine to say "I think pan means more that there's no preference or difference with hardware, whereas bi means any hardware is fine but it does make a difference", something like that. I mean, provided you're polite about it! The reason a lot of people who use or identify as bi get tetchy is because people say things like "pan people just date people they're attracted to" which happens to be true of just about all people and sexualities!

To be honest, I think it would work, as two slightly different things, except that no one agrees on the specific difference. There are lots of words we use, especially in LGBT+ subjects, that could be better. "Pansexual" is a slightly more sensible word than "bisexual", if used to mean the same thing, but I think it's just become confusing since it's used to mean something apparently slightly different, but unexplainable. Sometimes I think I should identify as pan, but since I don't get the difference, I feel like I shouldn't.

Anyway, I think a good rule of thumb for the discussions on this, and other words used for identities, is to see if you're implying something about the person using the word, or the word itself, and if you're implying something about the person, be very polite and specific.

[Jormengand]

Yes you are.:smallwink:

Aww, thanks. *Hugs.*

[nersxe]

If I assume a person is one sex, reach in their pants and find something different, I adjust my grip and technique.

My cat does not thank you for the abrupt wakeup caused by my ugly laughter. (I don't even know why that amused me so, it just did)

Okay, I've got a question. What's the most positive experience you've had with coming out at work? It can be in any sense of the word 'coming' out, and to anyone at work including but not limited to co-workers and bosses.

[Karen Lynn]

I've not come out at work yet. None of my jobs have I come out to yet.

[Sabeki]

Aw, that's too bad. Is there stigma against at work?

[Mono Vertigo]

Great news!
BF is now officially acknowledged as male. (Given what the modifications on the official documents look like, you'd think the procedure can't possibly need so much time and money.)
Now, off to change ID, driving license, and everything else to match. The quest begins!

EDIT: missed it earlier. Congrats, tassaron!

[Karen Lynn]

Yay Musashi's BF!

No stigma, but I'd rather wait until I get prescribed HRT.

[KenderWizard]

I ended up giving, like, a speech at coffee break once about LGBT+ issues and gender and stuff... I think someone used the word "hermaphrodite" and I explained that a lot of people find that word offensive, and I started explaining all this stuff... Anything, I think I said I was bi during that. Also, from a comment the other day, I think one of the people at work thinks I'm dating my female friend. *shrugs* So, no big deal, I suppose.


Great news!
BF is now officially acknowledged as male. (Given what the modifications on the official documents look like, you'd think the procedure can't possibly need so much time and money.)
Now, off to change ID, driving license, and everything else to match. The quest begins!


Woohoo! :smallbiggrin:

[Lauren]

Let's just end it. No more talky on bi- vs pan-. This is borderline argumentative, and it's never pretty every time it's brought up. If you don't think there's a difference, or you think pan- are just being pedantic and "holier than thou", then think of the difference as the name alone. If you do feel there is a real difference, regardless, then keep it. Let's not bring this up anymore. This is the third one I've been privy to.

I was going to respond to some of the other posts but I'm going to respect this and I'm also going to apologise for bringing it up in the first place.

In related news, did you know that today (well, in my time zone) (23rd of September, that is) is Bi Pride Day/Bi Visibility Day/Celebrate Bisexuality Day? I've been having a heck of a time figuring out which hashtags to follow on Twitter. I figure since I cycle between bi/pan/queer I can make this a thing.

[Jormengand]

In related news, did you know that today (well, in my time zone) (23rd of September, that is) is Bi Pride Day/Bi Visibility Day/Celebrate Bisexuality Day?

I didn't - I wasn't aware we needed to be celebrated, only recognised and respected.

Anyway, I'm going to bed now. I am now the not-particularly-proud owner of a 5000+ page document of half-done homebrew, which I'm possibly going to finish tomorrow. So yeah, tired.

Night night. *Collapses.*

[TaiLiu]

Thank you, that is an incredibly informative article!

I don't know that I agree with all of its definitions, but it will definitely help me talk to others in the future.
Aw, why did you remove your post? I found it interesting.

TaiLiu:

Could it be an issue for some people to have two things abbreviated to SO? I mean, I know I read for context, but I'm also familiar with the abbreviations, and new threadsters might not be.

I've also been hearing 'their own gender and other than their own gender' of late, specifically because there are some people who want to emphasise the fact that people who choose to identify as bi do not necessarily believe in the notion of gender as binary.

I'd actually be interested to hear from the thread at large as to what their thoughts are on that (please don't let me be opening a big ol' can of worms here!).

We're still missing andro/gynosexual. And as an informative post, I'd recommend removing radosexual and pomosexual, as they're not actual things, they're jokes and don't belong in a list presented for the purpose of clarification and education.

Also, minor thing, the opposite of a mastectomy or breast reduction is called breast augmentation. I think that's clearer than saying "plastic surgery", which, as we discussed last thread, is an extremely wide field! :smallwink:
Understood; will edit. (Are the new definitions sufficient?)

Just define bisexual as "1. attracted to two genders; 2. attracted to one's own gender and another gender; 3. attracted to various genders; 4. attracted to people regardless of gender; 5. ask the person who says they're bi what exactly they mean by that.
Unless anyone has any objections, this is what bisexual will be altered to.

edit: As long as I'm expressing opinions: I like these. Pretty much the whole thing
Yes, the link is pretty good.

I've not come out at work yet. None of my jobs have I come out to yet.
Hm? Didn't you do so to a singular person?

I didn't - I wasn't aware we needed to be celebrated, only recognised and respected.

Anyway, I'm going to bed now. I am now the not-particularly-proud owner of a 5000+ page document of half-done homebrew, which I'm possibly going to finish tomorrow. So yeah, tired.

Night night. *Collapses.*
'Celebration' is a misnomer, really. But, yes, have a good respite!

[Karen Lynn]

Nope. Came out to an ex 'co-worker'(as much as one can be called a co-worker in trucking) after she came out to me.

[TaiLiu]

Nope. Came out to an ex 'co-worker'(as much as one can be called a co-worker in trucking) after she came out to me.
Ah! I see.

[KenderWizard]

In related news, did you know that today (well, in my time zone) (23rd of September, that is) is Bi Pride Day/Bi Visibility Day/Celebrate Bisexuality Day? I've been having a heck of a time figuring out which hashtags to follow on Twitter. I figure since I cycle between bi/pan/queer I can make this a thing.

Awesome! I will be Visible tomorrow (since I'm still just about in the 22nd). I wonder how best to do that. I might wear a ribbon.

[Sabeki]

There's a Bi pride day? Coolio.

[Eldest]

Anyway, I'm going to bed now. I am now the not-particularly-proud owner of a 5000+ page document of half-done homebrew, which I'm possibly going to finish tomorrow. So yeah, tired.

*focusing on entirely the wrong part* What the crappppppppp.....?

I would be talking about the bi/pan thing, but eh, don't think it needs to be discussed.

[mistformsquirrl]

I can happily say that the comments are good for the first four pages, with the worst being somebody that says he can recognize true love when he sees it and will let it be.
That's the worst comment. On youtube. :smallsmile:

That's... unexpected. Youtube comments are usually so toxic <@.@> and with the downvotes I saw on that video I was expecting an epic crapstorm. Well that's good! <^_^>

[Akowrules]

Nope. Came out to an ex 'co-worker'(as much as one can be called a co-worker in trucking) after she came out to me.

That's awesome!!! I'm glad everything went well :smallsmile:

[SiuiS]

*shakes head*

They are different. Just... Augh... I don't care your opinion on bi- vs pan-. I still, and will always, identify as pan-.


Not to my knowledge. Never have I done it intentionally.



My experience has led to me believing there is a difference. If I assume a person is one sex, reach in their pants and find something different, I adjust my grip and technique. I don't know about a bi person.

I don't care what I find(or don't find) when I'm in bed with a person. I still have fun.

The trouble is, you aren't saying anything different than the other folks, you're just implying that bisexuals don't do this - after they've said they have. It's seemingly teling people they can't be bisexual if they agree with you because there's a difference.


Conversely, I've met many pansexuals who did care about what they found, because no one wants to bite into a thin mint and find caramel crunch instead. *shrug* everyone is unique enough that telling people that these labels are prescriptive doesn't help anyone.

[bluewind95]

Yay for good news!

I haven't really been around much, cos I've been rather sickly. Anyways *hugs* to anyone who wants them.

Spoiler for totally offtopic stuff

Aside from the being ill, and dang it, never thought I'd miss a period, but missing this one seems to be coincidental with feeling worse than usual. And there's drama around, too, and ugh. I'm feverish and really don't want to deal with anything, but it'd be mean not to.

[Irish Musician]

Something that brightened up my rather dour mood -

A beautiful marriage proposal. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4HpWQmEXrM) - I know over the top marriage proposals can be well... over the top, but this one felt incredibly genuine. I dunno, maybe it's just me, I liked it.

*edit* I should caution that as with anything on Youtube, don't read the comments - I haven't done so, I'm just automatically assuming they'll be the usual cesspool; I just don't want anything to ruin the beauty of the video itself.
Mine was me and my wife, in our apartment, alone. She is an introvert and much preferred that :smallsmile:

Everyone's a strange creature really. Some of us are just cute strange creatures. :3
Very much so :smallwink:

Great news!
BF is now officially acknowledged as male. (Given what the modifications on the official documents look like, you'd think the procedure can't possibly need so much time and money.)
Now, off to change ID, driving license, and everything else to match. The quest begins!
WWWHHHHHOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :smallbiggrin:

~Matthew~

[Absol197]

...

http://i1359.photobucket.com/albums/q796/Absol197/Week0-06_zpsd9c2420c.jpg

:smalleek: *runs and hides*

[TaiLiu]

Yay for good news!

I haven't really been around much, cos I've been rather sickly. Anyways *hugs* to anyone who wants them.

Spoiler for totally offtopic stuff

Aside from the being ill, and dang it, never thought I'd miss a period, but missing this one seems to be coincidental with feeling worse than usual. And there's drama around, too, and ugh. I'm feverish and really don't want to deal with anything, but it'd be mean not to.

Oh, dear. Feel better soon, comrade!

Mine was me and my wife, in our apartment, alone. She is an introvert and much preferred that :smallsmile:
Neat!

...

http://i1359.photobucket.com/albums/q796/Absol197/Week0-06_zpsd9c2420c.jpg

:smalleek: *runs and hides*
Blurry, but you look great, comrade! (Also, your house has very similar walls to comrade Karen's.)

[Chess435]

Yay, new thread! Though a bit of a problem on my end... power cord to my laptop is broke, and I have no way to replace it, so I'm running on what could be my last charge for a while.

[mistformsquirrl]

Absol that is so cute <^,^> Blurreh, but cute!

[TaiLiu]

Yay, new thread! Though a bit of a problem on my end... power cord to my laptop is broke, and I have no way to replace it, so I'm running on what could be my last charge for a while.
Oh, dear. You seem to have a similar problem to Raven, actually.

[Chess435]

Update: Apparently I have enough bing reward point thingies to pay for a new one entirely. Just waiting on the confirmation code in my email. Will still probably be gone a couple days while I wait to have it shipped, though.

Scratch that, still don't have enough for the part I need.

[HMS Sophia]

...

http://i1359.photobucket.com/albums/q796/Absol197/Week0-06_zpsd9c2420c.jpg

:smalleek: *runs and hides*

Damn... :smallredface:
You look gooood.....

(Also, I'm still alive, surviving, starting work this morning. I got plentily sleep. This is such an odd thing for me that I'm tired.)

[TaiLiu]

Update: Apparently I have enough bing reward point thingies to pay for a new one entirely. Just waiting on the confirmation code in my email. Will still probably be gone a couple days while I wait to have it shipped, though.

Scratch that, still don't have enough for the part I need.
Huh. Bing gives away points?

(Also, I'm still alive, surviving, starting work this morning. I got plentily sleep. This is such an odd thing for me that I'm tired.)
Nice! Sleep is great.

[Chess435]

Huh. Bing gives away points?

Spoilered for off-topic.

Yeah, as long as you link a Microsoft account up with them and do searches and stuff. Cashed all my points in for a $3 Amazon gift card (plus another dollar and change I already had on the site.), but it turns out for the part I need, I'll need $7-8. :smallfrown:

[Karen Lynn]

Goodnight, world! Start work on the morrow!

[Moonwolf727]

Goodnight, world! Start work on the morrow!

Best of luck! I hope you sleep well and it turns out pleasantly for you~

*slinks off to school*

[Eldest]

The trouble is, you aren't saying anything different than the other folks, you're just implying that bisexuals don't do this - after they've said they have. It's seemingly teling people they can't be bisexual if they agree with you because there's a difference.


Conversely, I've met many pansexuals who did care about what they found, because no one wants to bite into a thin mint and find caramel crunch instead. *shrug* everyone is unique enough that telling people that these labels are prescriptive doesn't help anyone.

Please don't do this? I'm reading what Karen posted and it seems to revolve entirely around her opinion and then stating she doesn't know about bi people. Further, we seem to have agreed to stop talking about the pan/bi difference or lack thereof.

[SaintRidley]

*pokes head in the thread*

Hey everybody. Glorious magic happened today - a post (http://saintridley.kinja.com/lets-talk-about-the-history-of-gender-and-pronouns-an-1365242291) I made got mainpaged on Jezebel. I'm very mildly internet famous now!

How's everyone's night going?

[Partysan]

...

http://i1359.photobucket.com/albums/q796/Absol197/Week0-06_zpsd9c2420c.jpg

:smalleek: *runs and hides*

You look good in that dress, although your expression suggests that you might be uncomfortable taking pictures of yourself :smallwink:
Relax. You're cute. Great body, as I'd expect from a kung fu adept.

[SiuiS]

...

http://i1359.photobucket.com/albums/q796/Absol197/Week0-06_zpsd9c2420c.jpg

:smalleek: *runs and hides*

Wow, that's a gorgeous dress!


Please don't do this? I'm reading what Karen posted and it seems to revolve entirely around her opinion and then stating she doesn't know about bi people. Further, we seem to have agreed to stop talking about the pan/bi difference or lack thereof.

Please don't ask someone not to ask someone to please not do something? I've also read Karen's posts, and found the tone to be worth pointing out. The second paragraph being specifically so it was a discussion and not just me calling someone out.
Och. Basic English language fail, let me try that again; I brought up the second part as a curio to soften the blow so it wouldn't seem like I was just targeting her for whatever reason.

As for agreeing to stop; I'm not arguing bi-vs-pan, I'm saying this


Anyway, I think a good rule of thumb for the discussions on this, and other words used for identities, is to see if you're implying something about the person using the word, or the word itself, and if you're implying something about the person, be very polite and specific

which isn't quite as objected to, non?

[Eldest]

Please don't ask someone not to ask someone to please not do something? I've also read Karen's posts, and found the tone to be worth pointing out. The second paragraph being specifically so it was a discussion and not just me calling someone out.
Och. Basic English language fail, let me try that again; I brought up the second part as a curio to soften the blow so it wouldn't seem like I was just targeting her for whatever reason.

As for agreeing to stop; I'm not arguing bi-vs-pan, I'm saying this



which isn't quite as objected to, non?

I am far too tired to work through the intricacies of English involved here, so I'mma come back to this, or not if I decide it's not worth it. So basically saying that I have read that, even if it didn't get through the haze of sleep deprivation right now. Now back to programming... :smallfrown:

[SiuiS]

I am far too tired to work through the intricacies of English involved here, so I'mma come back to this, or not if I decide it's not worth it. So basically saying that I have read that, even if it didn't get through the haze of sleep deprivation right now. Now back to programming... :smallfrown:

I understand. It's a potentially fruitful metadiscussion if you are willin to have it, but as we are now both aware of where the other stands, we can drop it at your leisure :smallsmile:

[TheCountAlucard]

Oh, hey, new thread!

Another unpleasant, inflammatory outburst from another of my coworkers. :smallsigh:

Luckily this time I wasn't the only one who felt like reporting him.

[MrDirt]

Oh, hey, new thread!

Another unpleasant, inflammatory outburst from another of my coworkers. :smallsigh:

Luckily this time I wasn't the only one who felt like reporting him.

Was it dircted at you? What did they say?

[Mina Kobold]

*pokes head in the thread*

Hey everybody. Glorious magic happened today - a post (http://saintridley.kinja.com/lets-talk-about-the-history-of-gender-and-pronouns-an-1365242291) I made got mainpaged on Jezebel. I'm very mildly internet famous now!

How's everyone's night going?

Congratulations! ^_^

As a Dane, I have to point out that "den" sadly carries the same problem as "it" and "that" does in English. It could be used when pointing someone out in a group (ie. "Which of them? That one!") and in some generalisations, but not when talking about a specific person, unless you want to sound like you are talking about a pet. ^_^'


Oh, hey, new thread!

Another unpleasant, inflammatory outburst from another of my coworkers. :smallsigh:

Luckily this time I wasn't the only one who felt like reporting him.

Eek, that does not sound like a pleasant work environment. I hope reporting it will work. ;_;

[TheCountAlucard]

Was it dircted at you?No.


What did they say?I was relaxing in the break room, and another employee comes in; having seen him before, I know he's prone to "random" outbursts. It so happened that his outburst of the hour this time was, "Look! A tranny!" :smallmad:

Afterward, the target of his outburst and I agreed that it was an insensitive and hurtful thing to say, and reported him.

[MrDirt]

No.

I was relaxing in the break room, and another employee comes in; having seen him before, I know he's prone to "random" outbursts. It so happened that his outburst of the hour this time was, "Look! A tranny!" :smallmad:

Afterward, the target of his outburst and I agreed that it was an insensitive and hurtful thing to say, and reported him.

Do you think that anything will come of him being reported?

[Serpentine]

Afterward, the target of his outburst and I agreed that it was an insensitive and hurtful thing to say, and reported him.Good on you.

[SiuiS]

Congratulations! ^_^

As a Dane, I have to point out that "den" sadly carries the same problem as "it" and "that" does in English. It could be used when pointing someone out in a group (ie. "Which of them? That one!") and in some generalisations, but not when talking about a specific person, unless you want to sound like you are talking about a pet. ^_^'

I could think of uses for that.



Eek, that does not sound like a pleasant work environment. I hope reporting it will work. ;_;

Aye.


No.

I was relaxing in the break room, and another employee comes in; having seen him before, I know he's prone to "random" outbursts. It so happened that his outburst of the hour this time was, "Look! A tranny!" :smallmad:

Afterward, the target of his outburst and I agreed that it was an insensitive and hurtful thing to say, and reported him.

Huh. Wow. Well, good on you mate.

[Karen Lynn]

SiuiS:
I absolutely love how others can request a certain line of conversation be stopped, and I'm expected to comply immediately, my only allowable response being something along the lines of "Ok", but if I request the conversation be stopped, it's totally legit to continue questioning me.

You want my opinion? Pan is love/sex. Gender/sex of the partner doesn't matter in any of it's combinations.

Bi- is love/sex with a clear preference for one sex over the other.

Bite me. I really don't need this ****. Not coming back to this thread.

[SiuiS]

That that has nothing to do with what I was bringing up. What I was bringing up is this, here; responding with an immediate and antagonistic visceral response to an otherwise. Friendly and non-emotional discussion at the time.

I don't care what your opinion is, I care that your delivery to quiet musing wad 'urgh! No! You're wrong!", and merely pointed out that such a response seemed needlessly antagonistic. You can take your ball and go home, and I wish you all the best if you do, but I would caution that this may keep happening if you take critique of something as a personal attack.

Good luck, wherever it lead you. Find good roads.

[Serpentine]

I disagree with your definitions, particularly since your definition of bi- is demonstrably incorrect for many bi people, and I've never heard any version of it before that requires bi people to lean one way or another.
Not gonna discuss it further since, y'know, requests *shrug* I would like to, though, if anyone's interested in doing so elsewhere.

[Urist]

Guys, the bi-pan debate really doesn't need to happen, I think. I identify as bi and disagree with Karen, but we don't need to fight about it, methinks. Can we please drop the issue?

In other news, some(read: the vast majority) of my school's LGBT organization seem to think that non-binary genders aren't a thing. They acknowledge trans people, but the general consensus is that you're either male or female, and the only gender issue you might possibly experience is your equipment not matching your gender. I absolutely love being told my experience is invalid, and that I'm just confused, and it's totally not hurtful coming from people in the "queer community". Yup, 100%. :smallannoyed:

[mistformsquirrl]

*builds a pillow fort at the far end of the thread*

Henceforth when fighting erupts I'll be in my pillow bunker. < . .> It's safer that way. Also good on you Alucard! <^.^>

[SiuiS]

Guys, the bi-pan debate really doesn't need to happen, I think. I identify as bi and disagree with Karen, but we don't need to fight about it, methinks. Can we please drop the issue?

We aren't; Karen took issue with my seemingly continuing a dead argument, I took issue with it being confused for continuing a dead argument, and SERPS is just saying she would like to continue elsewhere with those willing. I think the presentation is creating a false sense of topic.


In other news, some(read: the vast majority) of my school's LGBT organization seem to think that non-binary genders aren't a thing. They acknowledge trans people, but the general consensus is that you're either male or female, and the only gender issue you might possibly experience is your equipment not matching your gender. I absolutely love being told my experience is invalid, and that I'm just confused, and it's totally not hurtful coming from people in the "queer community". Yup, 100%. :smallannoyed:

I don't know what to say, mate. :smallfrown:
It's weird to conceive of a thing which is gender but not as they know it; when your definition of color is red or blue, someone sayin they are yellow just... Doesn't make sense. I think they would have an easier time accepting a lack of gender; it's just how the base wiring seems to work.
What tack would you prefer to take? Educating them? Getting the callous, hurtful things to stop? Putting an end to the silly "it's okay when I do it because I'm queer too" thing? Each would require a different focus, and if you try to tackle too much you'll burn out.

It's possible, though! I used to really only get gender as a binary (making the assumption that a spectrum which consists of X% male, Y% female is still functionally a binary), but I got better.

Put them in contact with Kender? She's the epitome of friendly, affable corrections for such silliness. Less jokingly, slightly, is that if you can convince these people to network outside their usual circles, somewhere such as here? Where the focus is on friendly and polite but also open and honest discourse? That might help. Exposure that makes you think would go a long way, unless they just got back to the fold for reindoctrination.

Also, would you like a hug? I know that stuff sucks and I'm basically rambling on about slow fixes.

[SaintRidley]

Congratulations! ^_^

As a Dane, I have to point out that "den" sadly carries the same problem as "it" and "that" does in English. It could be used when pointing someone out in a group (ie. "Which of them? That one!") and in some generalisations, but not when talking about a specific person, unless you want to sound like you are talking about a pet. ^_^'

Thanks for the knowledge. So Danish has two sets of basically neuter pronouns, then? And neither is productive for use by genderqueer people?

[Urist]

We aren't; Karen took issue with my seemingly continuing a dead argument, I took issue with it being confused for continuing a dead argument, and SERPS is just saying she would like to continue elsewhere with those willing. I think the presentation is creating a false sense of topic.



I don't know what to say, mate. :smallfrown:
It's weird to conceive of a thing which is gender but not as they know it; when your definition of color is red or blue, someone sayin they are yellow just... Doesn't make sense. I think they would have an easier time accepting a lack of gender; it's just how the base wiring seems to work.
What tack would you prefer to take? Educating them? Getting the callous, hurtful things to stop? Putting an end to the silly "it's okay when I do it because I'm queer too" thing? Each would require a different focus, and if you try to tackle too much you'll burn out.

It's possible, though! I used to really only get gender as a binary (making the assumption that a spectrum which consists of X% male, Y% female is still functionally a binary), but I got better.

Put them in contact with Kender? She's the epitome of friendly, affable corrections for such silliness. Less jokingly, slightly, is that if you can convince these people to network outside their usual circles, somewhere such as here? Where the focus is on friendly and polite but also open and honest discourse? That might help. Exposure that makes you think would go a long way, unless they just got back to the fold for reindoctrination.

Also, would you like a hug? I know that stuff sucks and I'm basically rambling on about slow fixes.

A hug may be helpful. I just... I hate being frustrated with them, because they're such nice, earnest people, and they honestly don't realize that they're being hurtful; they look at me as a first year, think I'm inexperienced, and that they're helping "mentor" me through my gender identity "confusion". They have the best of intentions, and that makes it really, really hard for me to come back and yell at them for misgendering, and for being insensitive.

I'm working on finding some resources for them online, and trying to more clearly explain what being genderqueer means; I may have gotten through to a few, or at least made them reconsider their opinion, so that's progress. I'm prepared to fight it out, and knowing that I have a safe space here is immensely helpful, so thank you, SiuiS, and everyone else in the thread.

[SiuiS]

A hug may be helpful. I just... I hate being frustrated with them, because they're such nice, earnest people, and they honestly don't realize that they're being hurtful; they look at me as a first year, think I'm inexperienced, and that they're helping "mentor" me through my gender identity "confusion". They have the best of intentions, and that makes it really, really hard for me to come back and yell at them for misgendering, and for being insensitive.

Ouch. Yes, that would be... Awkward.


I'm working on finding some resources for them online, and trying to more clearly explain what being genderqueer means; I may have gotten through to a few, or at least made them reconsider their opinion, so that's progress. I'm prepared to fight it out, and knowing that I have a safe space here is immensely helpful, so thank you, SiuiS, and everyone else in the thread.

Ah, don't thank me. I'm a fickle wee fairy, and liable to end up being strangely aggressive, stony and cold-hearted out of nowhere. It's... A thing. Pretty fantastic place here though, yes, and lots of fantastic people. :smallsmile:

[Astrella]

Thanks for the knowledge. So Danish has two sets of basically neuter pronouns, then? And neither is productive for use by genderqueer people?

Sorry for tagging on, but I felt you might find it interesting what it's like in Dutch? There's a third person pronoun that can be used plural or singular, it's sorta an undefined number one: "men". Comparable to the French "on" I think? It's only really usable as subject though and is very formal. I've sorta taken to using the Dutch version of they myself in certain context for a gender neutral pronoun, but I don't think that's widespread here at all.

[Mina Kobold]

Thanks for the knowledge. So Danish has two sets of basically neuter pronouns, then? And neither is productive for use by genderqueer people?

To my knowledge, we have the pronouns "han/ham", "hun/hende", "en/den", "et/det" and "man" (used the same as the general you is in English), but I am not sure if that makes for two sets of neuter pronouns as I am sadly not that well-read on linguistics. "Den" and "det" are respectively neuter and common gender (the only grammatical genders in Danish) and thus imply no non-grammatical gender, but they do indeed not work for people. Sadly. ;_;

I do think the Swedish gender-neutral pronoun could be easily adopted into Danish, but that's not a popular idea. >_<

[Jormengand]

*focusing on entirely the wrong part* What the crappppppppp.....?

I would be talking about the bi/pan thing, but eh, don't think it needs to be discussed.

I mean word, not page. Because that would be silly, even for me.

Anyway, awake again. Still feeling world-weary (and word-weary) as ever, yay.

[Mono Vertigo]

In other news, some(read: the vast majority) of my school's LGBT organization seem to think that non-binary genders aren't a thing. They acknowledge trans people, but the general consensus is that you're either male or female, and the only gender issue you might possibly experience is your equipment not matching your gender. I absolutely love being told my experience is invalid, and that I'm just confused, and it's totally not hurtful coming from people in the "queer community". Yup, 100%. :smallannoyed:
I'm sorry about that. There are ignorant jerks everywhere, even among those who've already been victims of other ignorant jerks. :smallfrown:
Hell is paved with good intentions.
Looking for documentation and trying to educate them sounds like the best options.

[Akowrules]

...

http://i1359.photobucket.com/albums/q796/Absol197/Week0-06_zpsd9c2420c.jpg

:smalleek: *runs and hides*

Hey! You look great! :smallsmile:

[SaintRidley]

Keveak, Astrella - thanks. Not formally being trained in any modern Germanic languages except English, that's all really helpful information.

So Dutch men is useful in some circumstances, but not enough to be widely useful, and not many people are working with the plural. How have people reacted to your use of the plural? Do they generally get what your doing, or are you met with blank stares?

Keveak - yeah, that's the interesting thing to me about Danish. You have only two grammatical genders, but you have four genders in your singular pronouns (five if you count the plural as a special gender). Is the resistance to borrowing from Swedish due to historical and nationalist reasons (sort of a "Protect our Danish-ness" thing?)

[razovor]

Yay. My internet is fixed.

Thanks for the advice in the last thread guys.


Bite me. I really don't need this ****. Not coming back to this thread.

Don't leave! You have been sad before. People in this thread said nice stuff. Then you were not sad. I don't want you to be sad. :smallfrown:

[Irish Musician]

...

http://i1359.photobucket.com/albums/q796/Absol197/Week0-06_zpsd9c2420c.jpg

:smalleek: *runs and hides*
OOhhhhh Myyyyyy. Very nice going out dress there! :smallsmile:

Oh, hey, new thread!

Another unpleasant, inflammatory outburst from another of my coworkers. :smallsigh:

Luckily this time I wasn't the only one who felt like reporting him.
Get 'Em!!!! :smallyuk:

Good for you for doing what you did. Crap like that needs to stop!

~Matthew~

[Astrella]

@Phee; looking lovely, dear. :smallsmile:


So Dutch men is useful in some circumstances, but not enough to be widely useful, and not many people are working with the plural. How have people reacted to your use of the plural? Do they generally get what your doing, or are you met with blank stares?

I've mostly used it in trans contexts, so people picked up on it and didn't make a fuss about it. Oh, Dutch equivalents of zie / zir are also sorta used in a gender-neutral fashion here sometimes, but in general pronouns outside of the two standard ones are less defined and common. (I imagine the Low Lands not having that big of a population and ergo less trans peeps and trans discourse in general in the Western world being very English centered playing a part there.)

[Mina Kobold]

Keveak - yeah, that's the interesting thing to me about Danish. You have only two grammatical genders, but you have four genders in your singular pronouns (five if you count the plural as a special gender). Is the resistance to borrowing from Swedish due to historical and nationalist reasons (sort of a "Protect our Danish-ness" thing?)

Not from what I've heard, though I do live in Copenhagen (nationalism, though still minor, is bigger in less urban areas). It seems mostly to be the same as the backlash in Sweden; the majority seems quite normative and very ignorant about GRSM matters, so don't understand that there could be a need for non-disclosure of gender or for options beyond male and female. It's generally seen as silly and weird. Really wish it was easier to educate people about gender. :smallfrown:

The only real linguistic conservatism I've seen has actually been in regards to people replacing common Danish words with English ones. Comparatively mild considering how little concern there is with adopting English words in general (Computer, brunch, picnic, Smartphone, etc.). ^_^'

[KenderWizard]

...

http://i1359.photobucket.com/albums/q796/Absol197/Week0-06_zpsd9c2420c.jpg

:smalleek: *runs and hides*

Nice dress! So gorgeous!


*pokes head in the thread*

Hey everybody. Glorious magic happened today - a post (http://saintridley.kinja.com/lets-talk-about-the-history-of-gender-and-pronouns-an-1365242291) I made got mainpaged on Jezebel. I'm very mildly internet famous now!

How's everyone's night going?

I saw it and I was like "Hey! It's Ridley!" Good for you! :smallbiggrin:



Put them in contact with Kender? She's the epitome of friendly, affable corrections for such silliness. Less jokingly, slightly, is that if you can convince these people to network outside their usual circles, somewhere such as here? Where the focus is on friendly and polite but also open and honest discourse? That might help. Exposure that makes you think would go a long way, unless they just got back to the fold for reindoctrination.


*flattered* Okay, when I get back (I'm just leaving work), I'll write something about gender boxes, and hopefully I can help you a bit, Urist. And if not, I will gladly give you hugs.

[Jormengand]

Bite me. I really don't need this ****. Not coming back to this thread.

*Bites.* Please don't go. Seriously. You're one of the few people making this thread worth it for me.

[Durmatagno]

Bite me. I really don't need this ****. Not coming back to this thread.

Don't leave please, I'm kinda just popping in from time to time, but I like seeing your posts, and I'm sure others do too, like Jormengand.

[Moonwolf727]

Bite me. I really don't need this ****. Not coming back to this thread.

:smallfrown:

Karen.... please stay. I genuinely enjoy your presence here, you're a great person and I'd prefer to have you around rather than not.

[Lycunadari]

You're my new favourite poster. :smallbiggrin:

Unrelated good news: At this rate it's looking like I'll definitely have all my ID changed by the end of the year.
Yay!


Great news!
BF is now officially acknowledged as male. (Given what the modifications on the official documents look like, you'd think the procedure can't possibly need so much time and money.)
Now, off to change ID, driving license, and everything else to match. The quest begins!

EDIT: missed it earlier. Congrats, tassaron!
Yay!

...

http://i1359.photobucket.com/albums/q796/Absol197/Week0-06_zpsd9c2420c.jpg

:smalleek: *runs and hides*
Phee, you're looking great! :smallsmile:


I'm back at my workplace, and my boss got me a beautiful potted plant as a birthday present, while my co-worker gave me a couple of canvases! And I met a friend I haven't seen since June. This day has been good. :smallsmile:

[KenderWizard]

Urist, these people who don't believe in non-binary gender are, as you know, being very narrow minded, and, as you say, it's especially weird and hurtful coming from people who should know better.

If you mean to keep hanging out with them, and since you say they are otherwise good people, that's sensible, I think the key is to be firm and unwavering, but as relaxed as possible. You are right and they are wrong, and eventually, if they listen, they'll see your point of view.

I do not have a non-binary gender, so here is how I know they exist: people told me they identified that way. That's it. Ask them if they don't believe in it, how can they believe in any other facet of identity? We all have to take people's word (or, generally, expression) at face value. If you say you're queer, or genderqueer, or trans, or straight or whatever, I can't check. My only "real" evidence is your expression of yourself.

More generally, I feel confident saying that literally everything to do with human identity is on a spectrum. Gay and straight aren't a binary, there are people who identify as hetroflexible (and presumably homoflexible?) (wait, my spellcheck is okay with homoflexible but not hetroflexible?!), bisexual, pansexual, queer, etc. So why would people be man or woman, and not have some people be genderqueer or genderfluid or anything else. And not just with sexuality and gender. People aren't just in the binary of religious or atheist, there are people who are spiritual, agnostic, culturally-religious, etc. People aren't just extraverted or introverted, lots of people are conditionally extraverted, or extraverted but shy, or introverted but excellent at public speaking. I'm choosing these examples because these are things that are part of who you are, how you're made, not just something you choose to be. You can't choose to be extraverted if you're not, same as you can't choose to be straight if you're bi, or a man if you're actually genderqueer. (You can always choose to _act_ whatever way, and label yourself whatever way, but if you're attracted to men you're attracted to men and no amount of saying "I'm actually a straight guy" is going to change that inside yourself. I know, I tried.)

Plus, if you want to go scientific on their asses, Urist, start asking what makes a man or a woman, in someone's brain. Lots of people fall between the stumps, hormonally, chromosomally, neurologically. That's a big can of worms, obviously, and someone's identity is way more important than their chromosomes, unless you are actively treating them medically for something chromosomal, but it just shows how flimsy the whole thing is.

And good luck with them. ((hugs))

[Chess435]

Update: Order for replacement cord sent out, will have it in 2 days.

[Moonwolf727]

Well, ladies and gentlemen, Karen has unfortunately formally left, with only the slightest chance of her coming back after a little bit of begging from myself. She's asked me to tell you that you can contact her through me, and presumably by PMing her too but she didn't actualy say that part. She'd also like to be removed from the list of contacts at the start of each thread if it isn't too much trouble.

I, personally, am sorry to see her go and I'm sure many of you are as well. :smallfrown:

[Jormengand]

I, personally, am sorry to see her go and I'm sure many of you are as well. :smallfrown:

:smallfrown:

Well, I'm off to bed. I may float around a bit after now, but... meh.

[Miriel]

Hi,

These past few days, I am somewhat confused about my gender identity and such things.

Usually, I am perfectly happy with things like "categories of gender are not useful" and with asking the phone company not to put any title before my name on my bills (I don't know why they even want one, really). But now, it's kind of not working. So I'm just feeling bad and confused. (I'm also feeling bad for other reasons, but it's really not helping.)

I don't know what to do. I think there's nothing to really "do", though. So I guess I don't know about what to think. Or something.

Help?

Various relevant things :
- I did not read the whole thread.
- This is the first time I've overtly talked about this. I do not post much over here, but lurk a lot. And many people have nice rainbow signatures, and rainbows are fun. And the first post says things like "support" and "questions".
- Because of my "professional" activities (let's put it this way -- I want to remain discrete, because this is the Internet), I am aware of concepts of gender and other such constructs from a theoretical perspective, but it has nothing to do with my personnal interrogations. I have little to no experience of other people's issues with this.

[razovor]

Help?

So you normally like thinking of yourself without a gender, but that doesn't feel right recently?

Theres a lot of stuff that could be up in your brain, including plenty of mundane stuff like temporary chemical imbalances, if agendered is your normal state.

If it's not temporary than you could be genderfluid, in which case your might eventually prefer to be agendered again, then back to a gender, then agendered. Frequency and length varies between people.

If you're transgendered preferring to be agendered might be your brains way of dealing with things. Eventually you might find yourself preferring the gender other than that normally associated with your sex.

But yeah, it seems like there isn't much to 'do'. Maybe try out a few genders, see how Mr or Miss sounds in front of your name for a while. Sorry I don't know more about stuff like this.

[Lauren]

I feel like a total idiot for posting anything relating to bi vs. pan when I know how heated such discussions can get.

I'm sorry, everyone. Sorry for posting it and sorry for losing Karen over it.

I'll be taking a break for a lil while to get my head straight (ha ha) and to remind myself not to post inflammatory topics. I don't deserve to be around nice people if I'm going to start arguments, however unintentional.

Take care all. My PM box will remain open if you need me, even though I'm not (and probably shouldn't be anyway) in the first post as a contact.

[Miriel]

So you normally like thinking of yourself without a gender, but that doesn't feel right recently?

Theres a lot of stuff that could be up in your brain, including plenty of mundane stuff like temporary chemical imbalances, if agendered is your normal state.

If it's not temporary than you could be genderfluid, in which case your might eventually prefer to be agendered again, then back to a gender, then agendered. Frequency and length varies between people.

If you're transgendered preferring to be agendered might be your brains way of dealing with things. Eventually you might find yourself preferring the gender other than that normally associated with your sex.
I don't know where I fit. I'm biologically male, and I wear ordinary male clothings (+ a beard, because I'm too lazy to take care of it), so other people who see me say I am male. I have a high-pitched voice, so on the phone, I'm often assumed to be female. Online, it has happened that I was taken for female too. I know I am vaguely satisfied when people assume I a woman (even though I normally correct them), but I don't mind in any way if I'm thought to be male. However, it feels odd to me when, for some reason, people count males and females and I'm in the males.

"In my head", I know I don't really identify as male (this may be related to my experience of bullying at an all-male high-school), but I don't know if I really identify as female. I use the masculine when I refer to myself in normal speech (my first language is French, so this happens much more frequently than in English : "La voiture m'a frappé (m.)/frappée (f.)" for "The car hit me"). In the few instances when I've written fiction, my autobiographical caracters were female.

For what it's worth, I could also be described as asexual (by which I mean that I do not feel sexual attractions towards anyone), even though I don't use the word with reference to myself.

In the past few days, I've been yearning for more "feminine" recognition, for reasons I do not know. This is very strange, because I like the idea of not using labels by way of principle, and not only with regards to gender identity. Categories are dangerous, especially when they are so ill-defined in their content as gender categories.


But yeah, it seems like there isn't much to 'do'. Maybe try out a few genders, see how Mr or Miss sounds in front of your name for a while. Sorry I don't know more about stuff like this.
Just to clarify: I put the example of gendered titles because it is basically the only concrete thing I ever did that could be related. But I also think, as a feminist, that unnecessary differenciation is the first step towards discrimination, so I would rather avoid titles anyway.

[Eirala]

Welcome, Enrico Dandolo!

My advice would be:
Be open to everything, and explore your feelings as unbiased as possible.
Observe your feelings when you're assumed to be a certain gender, and if there is a trend. Also just thinking about it may help a great deal. For example, just think (or say) "I am a man/woman/[something else]" and see how your feelings react to that. Imagining a whole day living as a certain gender (including no gender at all) helped me, too.

[TaiLiu]

*pokes head in the thread*

Hey everybody. Glorious magic happened today - a post (http://saintridley.kinja.com/lets-talk-about-the-history-of-gender-and-pronouns-an-1365242291) I made got mainpaged on Jezebel. I'm very mildly internet famous now!

How's everyone's night going?
Nice! It is very informative!

Afterward, the target of his outburst and I agreed that it was an insensitive and hurtful thing to say, and reported him.
Yay!

Bite me. I really don't need this ****. Not coming back to this thread.
Not yay... You were my catalyst, Karen! Come back! :smallfrown:

I'm back at my workplace, and my boss got me a beautiful potted plant as a birthday present, while my co-worker gave me a couple of canvases! And I met a friend I haven't seen since June. This day has been good. :smallsmile:

Update: Order for replacement cord sent out, will have it in 2 days.
Nice!

Well, ladies and gentlemen, Karen has unfortunately formally left, with only the slightest chance of her coming back after a little bit of begging from myself. She's asked me to tell you that you can contact her through me, and presumably by PMing her too but she didn't actualy say that part. She'd also like to be removed from the list of contacts at the start of each thread if it isn't too much trouble.

I, personally, am sorry to see her go and I'm sure many of you are as well. :smallfrown:
Indeed. Urist has sent me a message stating so, and I have complied.

Hi,

These past few days, I am somewhat confused about my gender identity and such things.

Usually, I am perfectly happy with things like "categories of gender are not useful" and with asking the phone company not to put any title before my name on my bills (I don't know why they even want one, really). But now, it's kind of not working. So I'm just feeling bad and confused. (I'm also feeling bad for other reasons, but it's really not helping.)

I don't know what to do. I think there's nothing to really "do", though. So I guess I don't know about what to think. Or something.

Help?

Various relevant things :
- I did not read the whole thread.
- This is the first time I've overtly talked about this. I do not post much over here, but lurk a lot. And many people have nice rainbow signatures, and rainbows are fun. And the first post says things like "support" and "questions".
- Because of my "professional" activities (let's put it this way -- I want to remain discrete, because this is the Internet), I am aware of concepts of gender and other such constructs from a theoretical perspective, but it has nothing to do with my personnal interrogations. I have little to no experience of other people's issues with this.
Hm. When I was confused about my gender, I spent multiple months are a research campaign to understand gender from multiple avenues and points of view. Perhaps you could try that...?

[Serpentine]

I feel like a total idiot for posting anything relating to bi vs. pan when I know how heated such discussions can get.

I'm sorry, everyone. Sorry for posting it and sorry for losing Karen over it.

I'll be taking a break for a lil while to get my head straight (ha ha) and to remind myself not to post inflammatory topics. I don't deserve to be around nice people if I'm going to start arguments, however unintentional.

Take care all. My PM box will remain open if you need me, even though I'm not (and probably shouldn't be anyway) in the first post as a contact.You are not responsible for how someone chooses to respond to the an innocent expression of an inoffensive opinion, certainly not for their response to *other people's* responses, and I sincerely hope no one here expects you to be.

[KenderWizard]

Well, ladies and gentlemen, Karen has unfortunately formally left, with only the slightest chance of her coming back after a little bit of begging from myself. She's asked me to tell you that you can contact her through me, and presumably by PMing her too but she didn't actualy say that part. She'd also like to be removed from the list of contacts at the start of each thread if it isn't too much trouble.

I, personally, am sorry to see her go and I'm sure many of you are as well. :smallfrown:

:smallfrown: Please tell her that she'll be missed, and to at least read all the people's posts asking her to stay.


Hi,

These past few days, I am somewhat confused about my gender identity and such things.

Usually, I am perfectly happy with things like "categories of gender are not useful" and with asking the phone company not to put any title before my name on my bills (I don't know why they even want one, really). But now, it's kind of not working. So I'm just feeling bad and confused. (I'm also feeling bad for other reasons, but it's really not helping.)

I don't know what to do. I think there's nothing to really "do", though. So I guess I don't know about what to think. Or something.

Help?

Various relevant things :
- I did not read the whole thread.
- This is the first time I've overtly talked about this. I do not post much over here, but lurk a lot. And many people have nice rainbow signatures, and rainbows are fun. And the first post says things like "support" and "questions".
- Because of my "professional" activities (let's put it this way -- I want to remain discrete, because this is the Internet), I am aware of concepts of gender and other such constructs from a theoretical perspective, but it has nothing to do with my personnal interrogations. I have little to no experience of other people's issues with this.

Hello, Enrico! I would recommend reading on gender things. I just posted a few posts back about non-binary genders, and it sounds like you might be in that category. There is a whole internet out there, and lots of people don't quite identify as male or female. You might be genderqueer, and even if it doesn't make a concrete difference to your life, it's nice to have a word for what you are. Stick around the thread!

[turkishproverb]

Don't know what to say on the gender issues. They're not really my area of expertise.

Update: Order for replacement cord sent out, will have it in 2 days.

Well, that's good.


Well, ladies and gentlemen, Karen has unfortunately formally left, with only the slightest chance of her coming back after a little bit of begging from myself. She's asked me to tell you that you can contact her through me, and presumably by PMing her too but she didn't actualy say that part. She'd also like to be removed from the list of contacts at the start of each thread if it isn't too much trouble.

I, personally, am sorry to see her go and I'm sure many of you are as well. :smallfrown:


:smallfrown: I'll miss her. She was good to have around. Sorry She won't be here any more.

[Jaycemonde]

Well, ladies and gentlemen, Karen has unfortunately formally left, with only the slightest chance of her coming back after a little bit of begging from myself. She's asked me to tell you that you can contact her through me, and presumably by PMing her too but she didn't actualy say that part. She'd also like to be removed from the list of contacts at the start of each thread if it isn't too much trouble.

I, personally, am sorry to see her go and I'm sure many of you are as well. :smallfrown:

Well, this is absolutely lovely. This thread always brings out the absolute ****ing best in people, doesn't it? It's all arguments and making people leave. I really liked it here, but it's like every single person I can talk to is gone except for Gail, and I doubt that'll even last. I'm done with this crap too. Bye.

Decided to spoiler this, since I can't shake the feeling all it would get is a "good riddance" from the thread anyway. I just really ****ing hate seeing good people leave because of bull**** arguments. Too many people have done that on too many forums and websites. Too many people have done that offline. Nobody can ****ing apologize and everyone expects deep answers and "I'm so sorry I ****ed up"'s for having completely innocuous opinions, especially ones based on experience or observation as opposed to just wanting to be more special than everybody else. I've tried talking to Karen on Skype and not gotten anything back about the thread so far, and she was the only particularly helpful person I've seen on here concerning surgery and medicine. Other people are up for talking, but nobody has actually been of much help. I hope she comes back, but I've this too often to wonder if it'd really be worth it. Ugh. At least she seems to be having fun with Pathfinder.


Moving on to more relevant ****, I had a panic attack last night at the grocery store. Ran into like three people I knew from high school (all of them calling me by my legal name) and the cashier kept calling me 'sir.' Everybody else in the store just kept staring at me whenever I'd walk past, presumably because of the way I was walking and the way I compulsively pull my jacket closed to cover my chest. That really helped. Then I got to the pharmacy (intending to buy a woman's OTC or two, at the least to delude myself into thinking I'll ever make any progress since I'll never, ever be in a position to actually afford HRT or any type of surgery) and completely broke down upon seeing at least seven brands and trying not to attract attention from people walking past, since they'd be so understanding of someone who obviously wasn't a woman standing in an aisle with tampons and pads on one side and vitamins and **** on the other. I ended up leaving without having bought a single thing, shaking all over and hyperventilating and flinching any time someone said my name. It was hard to drive home.

Then tonight, I had another breakdown when my dad made a huge deal about everything. I'm still trying to process that **** though, so I don't think I'll be able to describe it. Needless to say, everything always has to be my fault...

...just like with my aunt, since her just being honest to her husband about being attracted to women made him decide to take all his **** and leave, change his status to single without even filing divorce ****, and leave her to move out on her own when she couldn't afford the rent. Grandparents are convinced it's all her fault too, even though she had no intention to quit the relationship. I helped her move out on Saturday. We drove all over Austin and moved all kinds of **** around, and ended up putting most of it in storage while she moves in with a friend for the time being. Lots of shouting. Surprised my snapping and shouting at my grandfather when he metapmorphed into The Ultimate Badass Bitchlord didn't get me punched in the face. In better news, it turns out one of my cousins is really open-minded and is asking me questions (both for writing characters and on her friends' behalf) about sexuality, gender and identity. She lives with really overbearingly religious parents, so I'm pretty much the only way for her to get answers to those questions. (Wouldn't want to confuse the oh so pure bisexuality with the evil, condescending pansexuality though, now would I?)

And that's what's up with me. I guess I'm not leaving after all, but every time someone I consider a friend or role model leaves I get slightly more fed-up with everything.

[Akowrules]

Well, ladies and gentlemen, Karen has unfortunately formally left, with only the slightest chance of her coming back after a little bit of begging from myself. She's asked me to tell you that you can contact her through me, and presumably by PMing her too but she didn't actualy say that part. She'd also like to be removed from the list of contacts at the start of each thread if it isn't too much trouble.

I, personally, am sorry to see her go and I'm sure many of you are as well. :smallfrown:


Well, this is absolutely lovely. This thread always brings out the absolute ****ing best in people, doesn't it? It's all arguments and making people leave. I really liked it here, but it's like every single person I can talk to is gone except for Gail, and I doubt that'll even last. I'm done with this crap too. Bye.

Well, I'm sorry to see the both of you go. I wish the both of you the best of luck. It's just depressing to see more people leave. :smallfrown:

[Miriel]

Thanks to everyone who answere me :) I don't know, I guess it helps to just be answered, for some reason.


Welcome, Enrico Dandolo!

My advice would be:
Be open to everything, and explore your feelings as unbiased as possible.
Observe your feelings when you're assumed to be a certain gender, and if there is a trend. Also just thinking about it may help a great deal. For example, just think (or say) "I am a man/woman/[something else]" and see how your feelings react to that. Imagining a whole day living as a certain gender (including no gender at all) helped me, too.
I will try that.

Already, I know that I like being thought of as a woman, but I'm neutral towards being assumed to be male. Obviously the latter case happens a lot, so it would be wrong for me to feel bad about it. I always pictured my good feelings to being "feminized" as establishing a balance to the majority situation. But, today, I really don't know.

As for the "I am ...", let's try. With age qualifications, because age is another unfun social construct.
"I am a woman" : I don't know. I don't think I'm one.
"I am a young lady" : I'm not cool enough for that. But I think I would like it.
"I am a girl" : I don't think so.
"I am a man" : I could be. I don't know if I want to. I'm affraid.
"I am a young man" : I guess that's true.
"I am a boy" : No, this I'm not.

I don't really understand what it means to "be" male or female. But I'll try. Perhaps tomorrow, or Wednesday, I could be a woman, in my head at least. We shall see. (The idea of "being" a man, however, horrifies me, quite simply. That, I do not want.)

Aw, this is complicated stuff!

Hm. When I was confused about my gender, I spent multiple months are a research campaign to understand gender from multiple avenues and points of view. Perhaps you could try that...?
I don't understand what this represents. (I certainly don't have months of free time, though. I'm completely overloaded with work already.)


Hello, Enrico! I would recommend reading on gender things. I just posted a few posts back about non-binary genders, and it sounds like you might be in that category. There is a whole internet out there, and lots of people don't quite identify as male or female. You might be genderqueer, and even if it doesn't make a concrete difference to your life, it's nice to have a word for what you are. Stick around the thread!
I don't know about having a word. I feel like I'm already under to many labels at the moment. I try not to use them.

I know I can "be" something else than either standard options -- I guess I "am" normally neither of them --, it's just... right now, "None of the above" doesn't work.

But I will stick around :) Probably little more than lurking, though, at least for now.

[TaiLiu]

Well, this is absolutely lovely. This thread always brings out the absolute ****ing best in people, doesn't it? It's all arguments and making people leave. I really liked it here, but it's like every single person I can talk to is gone except for Gail, and I doubt that'll even last. I'm done with this crap too. Bye.

Decided to spoiler this, since I can't shake the feeling all it would get is a "good riddance" from the thread anyway. I just really ****ing hate seeing good people leave because of bull**** arguments. Too many people have done that on too many forums and websites. Too many people have done that offline. Nobody can ****ing apologize and everyone expects deep answers and "I'm so sorry I ****ed up"'s for having completely innocuous opinions, especially ones based on experience or observation as opposed to just wanting to be more special than everybody else. I've tried talking to Karen on Skype and not gotten anything back about the thread so far, and she was the only particularly helpful person I've seen on here concerning surgery and medicine. Other people are up for talking, but nobody has actually been of much help. I hope she comes back, but I've this too often to wonder if it'd really be worth it. Ugh. At least she seems to be having fun with Pathfinder.


Moving on to more relevant ****, I had a panic attack last night at the grocery store. Ran into like three people I knew from high school (all of them calling me by my legal name) and the cashier kept calling me 'sir.' Everybody else in the store just kept staring at me whenever I'd walk past, presumably because of the way I was walking and the way I compulsively pull my jacket closed to cover my chest. That really helped. Then I got to the pharmacy (intending to buy a woman's OTC or two, at the least to delude myself into thinking I'll ever make any progress since I'll never, ever be in a position to actually afford HRT or any type of surgery) and completely broke down upon seeing at least seven brands and trying not to attract attention from people walking past, since they'd be so understanding of someone who obviously wasn't a woman standing in an aisle with tampons and pads on one side and vitamins and **** on the other. I ended up leaving without having bought a single thing, shaking all over and hyperventilating and flinching any time someone said my name. It was hard to drive home.

Then tonight, I had another breakdown when my dad made a huge deal about everything. I'm still trying to process that **** though, so I don't think I'll be able to describe it. Needless to say, everything always has to be my fault...

...just like with my aunt, since her just being honest to her husband about being attracted to women made him decide to take all his **** and leave, change his status to single without even filing divorce ****, and leave her to move out on her own when she couldn't afford the rent. Grandparents are convinced it's all her fault too, even though she had no intention to quit the relationship. I helped her move out on Saturday. We drove all over Austin and moved all kinds of **** around, and ended up putting most of it in storage while she moves in with a friend for the time being. Lots of shouting. Surprised my snapping and shouting at my grandfather when he metapmorphed into The Ultimate Badass Bitchlord didn't get me punched in the face. In better news, it turns out one of my cousins is really open-minded and is asking me questions (both for writing characters and on her friends' behalf) about sexuality, gender and identity. She lives with really overbearingly religious parents, so I'm pretty much the only way for her to get answers to those questions. (Wouldn't want to confuse the oh so pure bisexuality with the evil, condescending pansexuality though, now would I?)

And that's what's up with me. I guess I'm not leaving after all, but every time someone I consider a friend or role model leaves I get slightly more fed-up with everything.
I am so, so sorry, comrade. For everything. :smallfrown:

I don't understand what this represents. (I certainly don't have months of free time, though. I'm completely overloaded with work already.)
It doesn't represent anything, actually; it means what it says. Also, I did the research in between tiny pockets of free time, though I understand the whole 'overloaded with work' thing.

[Miriel]

It doesn't represent anything, actually; it means what it says. Also, I did the research in between tiny pockets of free time, though I understand the whole 'overloaded with work' thing.
For some reason, I understood "research campaign" as in "joining some famous scientist's research project". I don't know why I thought that at all. This makes much more sense, and I guess I could do that. My "work" is research anyway (I'm a prospective historian), so it should be fine. Just, you know... not before the summer. Perhaps.

[TaiLiu]

For some reason, I understood "research campaign" as in "joining some famous scientist's research project". I don't know why I thought that at all.
Ha ha! If only. :smalltongue:

This makes much more sense, and I guess I could do that. My "work" is research anyway (I'm a prospective historian), so it should be fine. Just, you know... not before the summer. Perhaps.
Yeah, I did my research during the summer, anyway.

[Astrella]

I think just a lot of problems happen when people try to define other people's sexualities for them. Your sexuality is just your own and doesn't depend or define others. Sure, you can try and label it, but labels are just a crude tool to express these things, and they're descriptive, not a set of rules to follow. What being bi means for one person will likely be a bit different from what it means for other people.

(e.g. something I've encountered quite often is different definitions of being a lesbian. Like, people calling a lesbian that's okay with dating a trans women regardless of the way her bits are not a real lesbian. Which is ****ty. Just, don't define someone else's sexuality for them.)

[Jaycemonde]

I think just a lot of problems happen when people try to define other people's sexualities for them. Your sexuality is just your own and doesn't depend or define others. Sure, you can try and label it, but labels are just a crude tool to express these things, and they're descriptive, not a set of rules to follow. What being bi means for one person will likely be a bit different from what it means for other people.

(e.g. something I've encountered quite often is different definitions of being a lesbian. Like, people calling a lesbian that's okay with dating a trans women regardless of the way her bits are not a real lesbian. Which is ****ty. Just, don't define someone else's sexuality for them.)

Wish somebody could have said this earlier. But yeah, pretty much what you said.

[Astrella]

Also Jayce, if you'd like to leave that's okay of course, but I'd rather see you stick around.

And I'm really sorry you had a rough experience and that your aunt is dealing with so much crap. *offers hugs*

-----

Lauren, I know you feel guilty and I don't want to be dismissive but you can't really hold yourself responsible for other people's posts. There was nothing wrong with your initial post.

[turkishproverb]

Don't leave Jaycemonde!

Too many people are leaving!

Also, I missed this last thread:


No you don't, and you don't have to link. You can hit your upper-right-hand corner box and choose "Add account" and that allows you to log in a second time. Right now I'm on my brother's computer and he and I are both logged in on gmail.




No, you...



What Kender said :smallbiggrin:

That makes it so the emails can be traced to one another with cursory effort. I don't want that.


The problem with linking is that the data shows you are all seven the same person, not several different people sharing a home computing device.



EDIT: Lauren, don't feel bad. You didn't mean to chase anyone way, as it were, so don't blame yourself hard.

[Jaycemonde]

Also Jayce, if you'd like to leave that's okay of course, but I'd rather see you stick around.

I guess I am, since there's pretty much nowhere else for me to go, but given that nearly everybody who used to post here is either gone or has decided not to post anymore because of other people leaving, I don't really see the point. That makes it a lot like everything else I do in life--I'm going through the motions because I have nothing else to do, not because I see any particular reason to want to do it.


And I'm really sorry you had a rough experience and that your aunt is dealing with so much crap. *offers hugs*

Thanks, I guess. It was nice to be able to talk to her again and to find another actual ally in close proximity to me, but overall my situation still seems completely hopeless. At least my aunt has the NTSO and friends that live close enough to her to rent a room out.


Don't leave Jaycemonde!

Too many people are leaving!

I'm not leaving FA even though all my favorite artists are either dead (metaphorically or literally) or ragequit the community, I'm not leaving Steam [the community, that is; still want to play my stupid games] even though half the people I know there piss me off, I'm not leaving this thread because I still feel like this is the best chance I'll ever have at feeling remotely accepted by any group of people larger than three. I want to, but I don't see the point when things could only get worse.

[TaiLiu]

I guess I am, since there's pretty much nowhere else for me to go, but given that nearly everybody who used to post here is either gone or has decided not to post anymore because of other people leaving, I don't really see the point. That makes it a lot like everything else I do in life--I'm going through the motions because I have nothing else to do, not because I see any particular reason to want to do it.
Hm? I'm not seeing it, myself...

[SiuiS]

I feel like a total idiot for posting anything relating to bi vs. pan when I know how heated such discussions can get.

I'm sorry, everyone. Sorry for posting it and sorry for losing Karen over it.

I'll be taking a break for a lil while to get my head straight (ha ha) and to remind myself not to post inflammatory topics. I don't deserve to be around nice people if I'm going to start arguments, however unintentional.

Take care all. My PM box will remain open if you need me, even though I'm not (and probably shouldn't be anyway) in the first post as a contact.

You can't be held responsible for the results of mine and others' actions, sweetie.

[golentan]

Stupid sexuality not listening to me... *grumble grumble grumble*

I don't know why, but my body is hell bent on sabotaging any sort of stability. Do you think it might help me if I got an orchiectomy and started taking dose controlled hormone supplements? Or would my body and sex drive still be all over the place, just now without an ability to produce children? I am seriously considering looking into it, but I doubt anywhere would be willing to actually do it.

[Astrella]

Stupid sexuality not listening to me... *grumble grumble grumble*

I don't know why, but my body is hell bent on sabotaging any sort of stability. Do you think it might help me if I got an orchiectomy and started taking dose controlled hormone supplements? Or would my body and sex drive still be all over the place, just now without an ability to produce children? I am seriously considering looking into it, but I doubt anywhere would be willing to actually do it.

Have you had your hormone levels checked out of interest? Or talked about it with a medical professional?

[Beige Dragon]

So, I have a question to the transgendered people out there(Is that the right term?)/people who know what they are talking about. So a person who identifies as one gender, but is biologically another, gets a sex change to become the sex they identify as. This person would still be "straight", so for example it could be a male who identifies as a female, so gets a sex change to become a female, but is attracted to males. How does that go? Because they are "straight", is it weird for them to then date males, even if they physically resemble a male, and thus (Probably) most they would date would be gay, even though they themselves are "straight"? Or, if by "straight" they mean they are attracted to females, and only become a female because they identify as a female, but were biologically a male? They would (Probably) be technically gay (As in, female attracted to females), but would (Probably) be dating mostly gay woman (As they are biologically female). In both of these cases, the trans person is dating someone of the opposite orientation (Straight or gay). Is that weird? I don't know, I mean, I know there would be some people who they could fall in love with (IE: Explain to said person that you are female, even if you appear to be male. They fall in love with you even if you appear to be male, and they are straight because they love only you, not other "regular" men), its just that it seems like a weird situation. Note: This isn't a situation i'm in or anyone I know is in, its just a hypothetical situation.

[Jaycemonde]

-snip-

Your sexuality is whatever the hell you want. The way you worded this huge, elaborate cluster-**** of a situation is rather offensive, so that's all I'm going to say on the matter.

[Astrella]

Most binary trans people will be on hormone therapy as they transition, which will feminize / masculanize their bodies and they will look like their identified gender. I guess your hypothetical example does happen (e.g. lesbians dating trans men, spouses staying with their partner as they transition etc...), but in most cases trans people will be in relationships with people who are attracted to their identified gender.

(Also note that trans porn which tends to mostly feature trans women who haven't had bottorm surgery is almost exclusively consumed by straight men. Genitals can play a part in attraction, but they're definitely not the end-all.)

[Serpentine]

So, I have a question to the transgendered people out there(Is that the right term?)/people who know what they are talking about. So a person who identifies as one gender, but is biologically another, gets a sex change to become the sex they identify as. This person would still be "straight", so for example it could be a male who identifies as a female, so gets a sex change to become a female, but is attracted to males. How does that go? Because they are "straight", is it weird for them to then date males, even if they physically resemble a male, and thus (Probably) most they would date would be gay, even though they themselves are "straight"? Or, if by "straight" they mean they are attracted to females, and only become a female because they identify as a female, but were biologically a male? They would (Probably) be technically gay (As in, female attracted to females), but would (Probably) be dating mostly gay woman (As they are biologically female). In both of these cases, the trans person is dating someone of the opposite orientation (Straight or gay). Is that weird? I don't know, I mean, I know there would be some people who they could fall in love with (IE: Explain to said person that you are female, even if you appear to be male. They fall in love with you even if you appear to be male, and they are straight because they love only you, not other "regular" men), its just that it seems like a weird situation. Note: This isn't a situation i'm in or anyone I know is in, its just a hypothetical situation.A trans woman (that is, a woman who was born physically male) who is attracted to men is straight, or whatever sexuality they identify as - no bunnyrabbit ears.
The "weirdness" is dependent entirely on the individual situation and the people involved.
I'm afraid I can't really parse your last questions.
In most loving, long-term relationships with trans people, as far as I'm aware, the other person considers the trans woman/man to be the woman/man they are, or else considers themselves attracted to that person and that is enough of a definition of their sexuality (e.g. I have heard people say "I am Susansexual", or whatever).

For a non-hypothetical example, I know of a trans woman who has indeed had trouble with partners in the past who consider her a man, or else not fully a woman, and they have tended to be at least mostly gay. This has no impact on her identity as a straight woman, nor necessarily on theirs as gay men. She is now with a very straight cis man who never sees her as anything but a woman, and so has no conflict of sexuality.

When it comes to the sexuality of cis people in relationships with trans people, I think it can be tricky to precisely and conclusively define. It raises all sorts of questions, almost all unknowable, about what exactly people are attracted to and fall in love with, when it comes to their sexuality: is it genitalia? I don't think there's many people who would agree with that... Is it bodies? Is it personalities, gendered brains, pheremones, what?
When it comes to me, personally, I have no idea what exactly it is that makes me far more likely to fall for a man than for a woman. It also doesn't really matter. I fall for whom I fall for, whatevski *shrug*
For other people, it basically comes down to "not really any of your business". It's up to them to factor that into their personal definition of their own sexuality, if they wish to do so.


Did I miss anything, get anything glaringly wrong, or poorly articulate myself (especially in an offensive way) anywhere there?

[Beige Dragon]

Your sexuality is whatever the hell you want. The way you worded this huge, elaborate cluster-**** of a situation is rather offensive, so that's all I'm going to say on the matter.

Could you clarify what I said that offended you or could possibly offend someone? I wasn't trying to be hateful or anything like that, so any help to edit it would be ehlpful.

[Jaycemonde]

Could you clarify what I said that offended you or could possibly offend someone? I wasn't trying to be hateful or anything like that, so any help to edit it would be ehlpful.

Serpentine and Astrella both expressed it a lot more eloquently than I would have, and what they said is where most of the offense came from. There are no gimmicks or deceptions involved in having an identity that differs from your physical sex, and that is what you (unintentionally, presumably) implied.

EDIT: Also, Eldest. Eldest put it simply as well.

[Eldest]

Could you clarify what I said that offended you or could possibly offend someone? I wasn't trying to be hateful or anything like that, so any help to edit it would be ehlpful.

Starting right here:


This person would still be "straight", so for example it could be a male who identifies as a female, so gets a sex change to become a female, but is attracted to males.

This person is not male, they are female and had the misfortune to be born with the wrong parts. A transgender woman is female, regardless of their stage in transitioning. A transgender man is male, regardless of their stage in transitioning.

In other news, I'm having a recent run of crappy days, and the argument and stuff here wasn't helping, so I'm going to stop reading this for a day or three. PM me if you need me.

[golentan]

Could you clarify what I said that offended you or could possibly offend someone? I wasn't trying to be hateful or anything like that, so any help to edit it would be ehlpful.

Don't worry about it overmuch would be my advice. Trans issues can be a bit of a minefield for the uninitiated, and your questions seem well intentioned enough and aimed at dispelling ignorance, which is all I personally would ask for from anyone on any topic.

As others have said, the sexuality of Trans folks and the folks they date is generally related to the transitioned to gender/sex. A transwoman who dates exclusively women is gay, a transwoman who dates men exclusively is straight, and their partner's sexual orientation is generally agreed on to be aimed such that it includes the woman part of transwoman, and swap the appropriate descriptors for transmen. Individual people may feel free to define themselves however they want, but that's the standard. As for dating someone before and after they start transition and presenting as the target gender, that gets trickier. But in general, target gender is still the standard, and frankly most of the trans people I know who start dating before or early on in the transition and continue the relationship seem to be winding up with Bi people, which I guess makes things convenient. As long as the relationship is healthy and happy, labels can take a backseat until things get sorted.

[golentan]

Have you had your hormone levels checked out of interest? Or talked about it with a medical professional?

Whoops, forgot to respond to this. I haven't had my hormone levels checked since I was in high school, and given that my hormonal shenanigans seem to be on a monthly schedule a randomly timed blood check would (I believe) show little out of the ordinary. Normally (I.E. previous times I checked including the last one) I have high estrogen and low testosterone, which may possibly be related to having female tissues in me but when I was given a rundown of what that would cost and entail to confirm I decided to just let it be a fun mystery.

[Beige Dragon]

@Eldest, Jaycemonde, Serpentine, and Astrella, the basic point of my block of text now that I think about it, was that it seems that it would be hard for transgendered people to find people who love them who are also straight. Of course, there is nothing wrong with someone gay loving them, but it seemed kind of weird that a gay person would love a straight person in a mutual relationship (Not like, oh hey this person of the same gender as me is nice and I like them, but they are of opposite sexual orientation). But I guess I didn't figure in the fact that there are many ways for them to appear as feminine/masculine as they are, so I guess my confusing question is moot. I didn't mean to make it sound offensive. EDIT: I would now also like to clarify that I don't mean that someone needs to appear how people typically think a female or male looks like in order to be loved by any certain person/people/group of people. Please alert me if something else I said was offensive, so I can change it accordingly, as I don't want to offend anyone. Also sorry if i'm acting a bit paranoid about offending people, its just a the way I am.

On separate parts:


This person is not male, they are female and had the misfortune to be born with the wrong parts. A transgender woman is female, regardless of their stage in transitioning. A transgender man is male, regardless of their stage in transitioning.

I know, I just referred to the person as what they were physically born as, instead of what they mentally are. (I say mentally to mean, what they believe they are. I know that sounds offensive, but to me saying "truly are" sounds like some kind of weird spiritual thing to me, but that is what I mean, they truly are what they believe they are)


Most binary trans people will be on hormone therapy as they transition, which will feminize / masculanize their bodies and they will look like their identified gender. I guess your hypothetical example does happen (e.g. lesbians dating trans men, spouses staying with their partner as they transition etc...), but in most cases trans people will be in relationships with people who are attracted to their identified gender.

(Also note that trans porn which tends to mostly feature trans women who haven't had bottorm surgery is almost exclusively consumed by straight men. Genitals can play a part in attraction, but they're definitely not the end-all.

I didn't take into account that first paragraph, so what I meant by the question became kind of moot, I guess.

Whats that about porn though? I don't see that being relevant to my question, but i'm not very good at clearly reading things in forums, so i'm probley just not getting why you said it. (Sorry if that sounds rude, its late at night, I don't have time to go over my posts alot)

[Jaycemonde]

I know, I just referred to the person as what they were physically born as, instead of what they mentally are. (I say mentally to mean, what they believe they are. I know that sounds offensive, but to me saying "truly are" sounds like some kind of weird spiritual thing to me, but that is what I mean, they truly are what they believe they are)

And that, there, is where all the offense is. Calling a trans woman a man because "you were born a man!!!1!" or a trans man a woman because "you were born a woman111!1" is the gravest insult possible. I should know, because you literally did just that to like three people, myself included. Even if you think that someone believing they're the opposite sex inside is "some weird spiritual thing" you're still supposed to use their preferred pronouns out of basic human decency.

[golentan]

And that, there, is where all the offense is. Calling a trans woman a man because "you were born a man!!!1!" or a trans man a woman because "you were born a woman111!1" is the gravest insult possible. I should know, because you literally did just that to like three people, myself included. Even if you think that someone believing they're the opposite sex inside is "some weird spiritual thing" you're still supposed to use their preferred pronouns out of basic human decency.

It parses to me like the Dragon in question is grasping for the terms MAAB and FAAB without having the vocabulary, and is agreeing transwomen are really women and transmen are really men but is trying to differentiate between that and birth gender.

[Serpentine]

He hasn't misused any pronouns, especially not in that post, and he was only referring to the phrase "what you truly are" as having certain connotations to him. He even said that it is what he means. He's grasping for the correct terminology here. I think you would do far better to supply it rather than censure him for things he didn't say.

[Beige Dragon]

And that, there, is where all the offense is. Calling a trans woman a man because "you were born a man!!!1!" or a trans man a woman because "you were born a woman111!1" is the gravest insult possible. I should know, because you literally did just that to like three people, myself included. Even if you think that someone believing they're the opposite sex inside is "some weird spiritual thing" you're still supposed to use their preferred pronouns out of basic human decency.

I don't think that someone being the opposite sex then what they are physically born as is a weird spiritual thing. Its a real thing, and its a shame they have to get surgery to become what they truly are. What I meant by that was that saying the specific phrase, not the meaning behind the phrase, "truly are" sounds like a weird spiritual thing. I would never yell, in bad usage of the shift button or not, at someone that they were born a man or woman, because there is nothing wrong with being transgender or something that like, so I am sorry if that was a point I accidentally put out.

[Jaycemonde]

It parses to me like the Dragon in question is grasping for the terms MAAB and FAAB without having the vocabulary, and is agreeing transwomen are really women and transmen are really men but is trying to differentiate between that and birth gender.


He hasn't misused any pronouns, especially not in that post, and he was only referring to the phrase "what you truly are" as having certain connotations to him. He even said that it is what he means. He's grasping for the correct terminology here. I think you would do far better to supply it rather than censure him for things he didn't say.

I really am not in the proper frame of mind to figure out what the hell people are saying, I guess. Now that you explain it, it actually seems obvious. I feel like an *******. Pretty much any other person on the thread would have been a better person to answer the question, even if they weren't trans* themselves. I'll just go hide under something a long ways away from the thread so I don't **** anything else up.

[Beige Dragon]

I really am not in the proper frame of mind to figure out what the hell people are saying, I guess. Now that you explain it, it actually seems obvious. I feel like an *******. Pretty much any other person on the thread would have been a better person to answer the question, even if they weren't trans* themselves. I'll just go hide under something a long ways away from the thread so I don't **** anything else up.

You don't need to beat yourself up about it. I wasn't hurt by what you said or anything, I wasn't as clear as I could have been, and its easy to get your train of thought mucked up when reading forum posts.

[Lady Serpentine]

So! Sorry to completely switch topics, but... Something just came up, and I simply don't have the time to reply to anything else at the moment, much less the energy.

To sum up the thing that just came up, one of my partners, who happens to be trans, is having some issues and will be posting shortly with more details; any help that any of you can give would be very much appreciated.

Oh, also, because I'm not sure if she has a gender symbol set or anything, female pronouns, please. :smallsmile:

~Raven~

[BloodSamurai]

Hey... I'm the person Raven is talking about... This is hard for me to say, so please bear with me...

I have just lost my job... and it was the only thing keeping me in the place I am living... I have to be able to find a new place to work very soon or I will not have a place to live anymore... which will make it hard to impossible to get online... and... well, the only reason I feel the need to get up is to be able to talk with Raven or my other partner...

I have a hard time asking for things from people I don't know... but I will strongly appreciate any help given to me...

[Astrella]

Whats that about porn though? I don't see that being relevant to my question, but i'm not very good at clearly reading things in forums, so i'm probley just not getting why you said it. (Sorry if that sounds rude, its late at night, I don't have time to go over my posts alot)

Is okay. It's just that people tend to go with the "only gay men would be interested in trans women, especially those who have a penis" and I like to bring up the fact that trans women porn is not consumed by gay men, but by straight men rather, showing that gay men don't really tend to be interested in trans women.

[Serpentine]

I really am not in the proper frame of mind to figure out what the hell people are saying, I guess. Now that you explain it, it actually seems obvious. I feel like an *******. Pretty much any other person on the thread would have been a better person to answer the question, even if they weren't trans* themselves. I'll just go hide under something a long ways away from the thread so I don't **** anything else up.Just try not to assume ill intent until demonstrated, is all. I'm not surprised you - and no doubt many others - were offended at his first post, because there was a lot to be offended at. I could just see that it was coming from a position of ignorance - of self-aware ignorance, what's more, which I think is a fairly big deal - and a lack of correct vocabulary. This is a fairly niche topic, with little consensus on anything, really - it can't be that surprising if people flounder in the new lingo.
It could potentially be useful if we had a standardised vocabulary for the discussion of [sex aka birth sex/assigned sex/physical sex/original sex[repeat with "gender" instead of "sex"]] verses [gender aka mental gender/preferred gender/transitioning gender/true gender/[repeat with "sex" instead of "gender"]], but I'm not sure if there exists any combination that nobody would find offensive. Which can be unfortunate - it sorta leads to an impression of "you just can't talk about this at all".
And that's even without going into the fact that, as Natalie Reed so eloquently brought to my attention (even if I don't entirely agree with her conclusions), if someone decides to do the full physical transition they can become for all intents and purposes (except some very specific and private medical ones) the physical sex that matches their mental gender - which leads to the potential need for further distinction between [birth/assigned/original sex] and [true/new/current/ultimate sex]* for a detailed discussion of trans* issues!

...

Well.
That went meandery.
It's also not all directed at you, Jayce - as much at Beige Dragon, and just general musing.

*True New Current Ultimate Sex: fourth album of my band.

[Felandria]

Don't worry, Jayce, I'm still not sure exactly what describe me, for example.


So! Sorry to completely switch topics, but... Something just came up, and I simply don't have the time to reply to anything else at the moment, much less the energy.

To sum up the thing that just came up, one of my partners, who happens to be trans, is having some issues and will be posting shortly with more details; any help that any of you can give would be very much appreciated.

Oh, also, because I'm not sure if she has a gender symbol set or anything, female pronouns, please. :smallsmile:

~Raven~

I haven't heard from you in a few days, hon.

I didn't do something wrong, I hope:smallredface:

You coming back over to FFRP soon?

[Astrella]

Hey... I'm the person Raven is talking about... This is hard for me to say, so please bear with me...

I have just lost my job... and it was the only thing keeping me in the place I am living... I have to be able to find a new place to work very soon or I will not have a place to live anymore... which will make it hard to impossible to get online... and... well, the only reason I feel the need to get up is to be able to talk with Raven or my other partner...

I have a hard time asking for things from people I don't know... but I will strongly appreciate any help given to me...

*offers sympathies*

Sorry to hear you lost your job, do you think finding a new one short term is realistic? (I'm also not completely sure what kind of help you'd like aside from general support?)

[golentan]

Hey... I'm the person Raven is talking about... This is hard for me to say, so please bear with me...

I have just lost my job... and it was the only thing keeping me in the place I am living... I have to be able to find a new place to work very soon or I will not have a place to live anymore... which will make it hard to impossible to get online... and... well, the only reason I feel the need to get up is to be able to talk with Raven or my other partner...

I have a hard time asking for things from people I don't know... but I will strongly appreciate any help given to me...

Do you have friends in the area who can put you up while you hunt for a new job? I don't know what to tell you, but I hope things work out.

[Moonwolf727]

Hey... I'm the person Raven is talking about... This is hard for me to say, so please bear with me...

I have just lost my job... and it was the only thing keeping me in the place I am living... I have to be able to find a new place to work very soon or I will not have a place to live anymore... which will make it hard to impossible to get online... and... well, the only reason I feel the need to get up is to be able to talk with Raven or my other partner...

I have a hard time asking for things from people I don't know... but I will strongly appreciate any help given to me...

*hugs*

I'm always here for you dear, never ever doubt that. You can contact me however you like, whether in times of trouble or otherwise, I'll always answer as soon as I can. Be safe dear and I, truly, wish you the very *best* of luck.

[Felandria]

Hey... I'm the person Raven is talking about... This is hard for me to say, so please bear with me...

I have just lost my job... and it was the only thing keeping me in the place I am living... I have to be able to find a new place to work very soon or I will not have a place to live anymore... which will make it hard to impossible to get online... and... well, the only reason I feel the need to get up is to be able to talk with Raven or my other partner...

I have a hard time asking for things from people I don't know... but I will strongly appreciate any help given to me...

I wish I could help you more, dear, I've been looking for a job for a long time.

I hope things work out though.

[BloodSamurai]

I.. I honestly have tears in my eyes. Thank you everyone for listening to me.


*offers sympathies*

Sorry to hear you lost your job, do you think finding a new one short term is realistic? (I'm also not completely sure what kind of help you'd like aside from general support?)

Thank you for your sympathy, and for me? Not really considering I have no way to get to far away jobs, and there is not meany close by...(I'm not fully sure myself honestly...)


Do you have friends in the area who can put you up while you hunt for a new job? I don't know what to tell you, but I hope things work out.

I do, but I am allowed to stay where I am for a little bit, and I will have to suffer through no internet for a while. And so do I.


*hugs*

I'm always here for you dear, never ever doubt that. You can contact me however you like, whether in times of trouble or otherwise, I'll always answer as soon as I can. Be safe dear and I, truly, wish you the very *best* of luck.

*hugs back* Thank you, and that is good to know. I am happy to know that I can always talk to you, and thank you for all the good luck.


I wish I could help you more, dear, I've been looking for a job for a long time.

I hope things work out though.

It's alright. Thank you for caring about me.

[SiuiS]

Stupid sexuality not listening to me... *grumble grumble grumble*

I don't know why, but my body is hell bent on sabotaging any sort of stability. Do you think it might help me if I got an orchiectomy and started taking dose controlled hormone supplements? Or would my body and sex drive still be all over the place, just now without an ability to produce children? I am seriously considering looking into it, but I doubt anywhere would be willing to actually do it.


Have you had your hormone levels checked out of interest? Or talked about it with a medical professional?

I would suggest bringing this up with a doctor as well as the idea of it being cyclic. Time lapse tests could pick up rhythms that would help.


So, I have a question


to the transgendered people out there(Is that the right term?)/people who know what they are talking about.

Yes and no. Trans is an umbrella term, meaning it stands in for a lot of things. Trans covers genderqueer for example, while gender queer does not exactly stand in for trans or transsexual, etc., so in this case you would be asking specifically about people who feel their gender is off, but not necessarily their sex; this may cause friction as you then go on to discuss sex and SRS.


So a person who identifies as one gender, but is biologically another, gets a sex hange to become the sex they identify as. This person would still be "straight", so for example it could be a male who identifies as a female, so gets a sex change to become a female, but is attracted to males. How does that go?

Remarkably well, actually.

Just as a heads up; some of the language is a problem here. Not because of anything you're saying, but because the nature of language adds layers of assumption and implication. For example, SRS – sexual reassignment(?) surgery – does not allow you to become a new sex; if anything, hormone therapy does that, and only from a scientifically wobbly and generally inaccurate view of what constitutes sex. Saying they becomes different sex strongly implies that they are not the sex they identify as, which over time and across common usage erodes the idea of a transsexual person's issues being legitimate and not in their head.
(I almost messed up, too! I almost said "a transsexual", but they aren't a transsexual, just like a gay man isn't a homosexual as their sole defining feature. We are talking about a single trait and it's important to not assume that trait is their most important one; not even by accident to save time!)

Saying a male who identifies as female also works counter to preferred practice, because it says that the body is correct and the person, the mind, is not. This implies you should "cure" them and that's not accurate, nor healthy, nor safe. We generally accept that, as gender is wholly a thing of the mind – not to say it's all in your head mind you! – the person is right and the body is incorrect.
Folks are generally nice about this issue unless they've had a bad day, because society is about 4 billion people telling you judging by the body is okay, so it's understandable that you wouldn't know yet. However, in places where you would be expected to know better, folks get much more upset quickly, as you may have noticed. It's best to be aware that this is a delicate subject and should be handled not only with respect, but grace. A very hard thing to do.


Because they are "straight", is it weird for them to then date males, even if they physically resemble a male, and thus (Probably) most they would date would be gay, even though they themselves are "straight"?

First, gay and straight don't really have much value in this discussion. They are colloquial expressions which fall apart under actual scrutiny. For simplicity, we will use straight to mean heterosexual, and gay to mean homosexual, though.

Straight, means that you prefer the opposite gender or sex. I say "or", because some people are interested in the hardware, the body, but that's generally considered bad practice. People who only want you for your body are judged poorly.

That tangent aside, a gay man is a man who wants to engage in sex with other men (gross generalization). A transman is a man. A cisman is a man. There is, so far, no orientation that focuses on cis/trans, just man/woman/other/neither/both/etc., so the trans part simply isn't relevant.

The people transfolks date tend not to fixate on genitals. As such, no, there is no weirdness about a gay man dating a straight woman because she's trans.


Or, if by "straight" they mean they are attracted to females, and only become a female because they identify as a female, but were biologically a male? They would (Probably) be technically gay (As in, female attracted to females), but would (Probably) be dating mostly gay woman (As they are biologically female).

'Biologically [sex]' is another thing that doesn't have value when you look at it, though. A female is not defined by having a vagina and uterus, nor is a male defined by penis and testicles. A transwoman may have bones with a narrower pelvis, smaller pelvic angle, longer, tucked in tail bone and more pronounced maxillary flanges or filing, but her blood work will show female hormone levels and a noticeably lower amount of male hormones – science shows that most understandings of sex are subjective, since the same subject will read as different sides of a binary based on the test, proving that Male and Female are not objective constructs which people must be one or the other of.


In both of these cases, the trans person is dating someone of the opposite orientation (Straight or gay). Is that weird?

I would personally find that weird, but the heart wants what the heart wants. I do not believe this hypothetical scenario is a regular or given thing, however.

In any case, this isn't, like, super weird. Takin the trans part out of it, I know straight people who fall for gay people, and gay people who fall for straight people. That's common, and often heartbreaking. Trans/Cis just doesn't really factor into it.

A transwoman is a woman. A transman is a man. A ciswoman is a woman. A cisman is a man. So really, trans is only an issue if someone forces it to be an issue.

I glossed over, generalized and left stuff out. Astrella and KenderWizard are both higher priority than I, where we conflict, and doing a search for stuff by Asta Kask on ... Body map, I think? Will also be handy. :smallsmile:


Most binary trans people will be on hormone therapy as they transition, which will feminize / masculanize their bodies and they will look like their identified gender. I guess your hypothetical example does happen (e.g. lesbians dating trans men, spouses staying with their partner as they transition etc...), but in most cases trans people will be in relationships with people who are attracted to their identified gender.

(Also note that trans porn which tends to mostly feature trans women who haven't had bottorm surgery is almost exclusively consumed by straight men. Genitals can play a part in attraction, but they're definitely not the end-all.)

Aye. Theoretically, my filly will stick with me, but she's still probably straight.


@Eldest, Jaycemonde, Serpentine, and Astrella, the basic point of my block of text now that I think about it, was that it seems that it would be hard for transgendered people to find people who love them who are also straight.

It's not. Lemme find a comic on this (that's why I quoted Astrella! Dumb brain. Forgetting things.)

Here we go; Gold Star Gay (http://comics.billroundy.com/?p=1116) (love that term XD)


Also sorry if i'm acting a bit paranoid about offending people, its just a the way I am.

Take this with a grain of salt, because I've chased away three people, muddied the waters, pissed off a bunch and possibly soured a friendship or two, but; the best thing to do is not tiptoe on eggshells, but to take responsibility.

Being too cautious won't help, because you'll still eventually make a mistake or a perceived mistake or even just be misunderstood. You'll get yelled at for it. Only now, because you were so careful, you're angry; you're angry that the efforts you're going to aren't appreciated, that there's no slack, that these people can't see how accommodating you're wig and are being so unhelpful... And you'll take that anger to the discussion.

If instead, you remain polite and own up to the mistake, you take away a lot of what feeds that fire. People will see eventually that they are yelling and it's out of place, and usually calm down and start working things out. When you step on someone's toes, apologize if you didn't mean it, acknowledge the mistake and ask for help and corrections (and don't take it personally even if it is personal!). It's a sense of professionalism that usually leads to calm heads all around.



I know, I just referred to the person as what they were physically born as, instead of what they mentally are. (I say mentally to mean, what they believe they are. I know that sounds offensive, but to me saying "truly are" sounds like some kind of weird spiritual thing to me, but that is what I mean, they truly are what they believe they are)

Quite philosophical. What defines a person, the body or the person? At the gross level they are differentiable. Generalizing again, a trans woman may have the 'body of a man' (again, not really; Astrella and co. Explain it better than I), but they do, verifiably, have the brain of a woman. The chemistry is different, the wiring and prioritization, or whatever. Noparlpf is throne to ask about this, in particular. He's good at neurochemistry explanations.



Whats that about porn though? I don't see that being relevant to my question, but i'm not very good at clearly reading things in forums, so i'm probley just not getting why you said it. (Sorry if that sounds rude, its late at night, I don't have time to go over my posts alot)

Most widely disseminated information on transsexuals comes from porn unfortunately. This gives people weird ideas about what being trans means, and is often used to justify their positions. Like everything else in porn though, it's all misdirection and lies.

I forgot the specifics, but that's the gist.


It parses to me like the Dragon in question is grasping for the terms MAAB and FAAB without having the vocabulary, and is agreeing transwomen are really women and transmen are really men but is trying to differentiate between that and birth gender.

Aye, that's how I read it.


I don't think that someone being the opposite sex then what they are physically born as is a weird spiritual thing. Its a real thing, and its a shame they have to get surgery to become what they truly are. What I meant by that was that saying the specific phrase, not the meaning behind the phrase, "truly are" sounds like a weird spiritual thing. I would never yell, in bad usage of the shift button or not, at someone that they were born a man or woman, because there is nothing wrong with being transgender or something that like, so I am sorry if that was a point I accidentally put out.

Again, pointing to potentially problematic language. I already covered it, but it makes ya think, huh? We take a lot for granted, sometimes.


I really am not in the proper frame of mind to figure out what the hell people are saying, I guess. Now that you explain it, it actually seems obvious. I feel like an *******. Pretty much any other person on the thread would have been a better person to answer the question, even if they weren't trans* themselves. I'll just go hide under something a long ways away from the thread so I don't **** anything else up.

It's understandable. You're in a bad mood. I'd offer to have you talk/yell at me in private, but I think that may just wind you up further? If I can help with closure though, I'm willing.


Hey... I'm the person Raven is talking about... This is hard for me to say, so please bear with me...

I have just lost my job... and it was the only thing keeping me in the place I am living... I have to be able to find a new place to work very soon or I will not have a place to live anymore... which will make it hard to impossible to get online... and... well, the only reason I feel the need to get up is to be able to talk with Raven or my other partner...

I have a hard time asking for things from people I don't know... but I will strongly appreciate any help given to me...

Whereabouts is your general location? Some folks can't offer monetary or material aid, but can offer space, for example.

[Darklady2831]

The fact that you passed up on the opportunity to call this iteration of the thread 'The Meaning of Life' will always weigh heavily on my soul. :smallfrown:

Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy reference.

[Philemonite]

The fact that you passed up on the opportunity to call this iteration of the thread 'The Meaning of Life' will always weigh heavily on my soul. :smallfrown:

Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy reference.

I suggested that two threads ago, but nobody is listening to me.:smallfrown:

[nersxe]

You know, I'm trans and dating a straight cisfemale. I hear a lot of transpersons have a rough time with dating and sex and all that, but I never really have in that respect. I guess that's one aspect of my life I'm lucky in.

[Mynxae]

What would you call it when I'm gay but I'm curious about what it would be like to be with a woman? (both emotionally and physically) I've been curious for awhile and I just.. I don't know. It makes me nervous just to think about it. I don't know anything but guys.

[Kalmageddon]

Well, since the conversation spontaneously went in this direction I think I might feel free to post my question in public.

Let's say I meet a biological woman who self identifies as male but hasn't underwent any kind of surgery or HRT.
I, Kalmageddon, am a biological heterosexual male, thus I might find myself physically attracted by him (the biological woman). If I knew about his life choice I obviously wouldn't pursue a relationship with him, but unless he tells me about it I might want to.
And even after knowing about it I would still look at him and see an attractive woman, because I obviously can't control what my brain tells me is phyisically attractive (a female body), even if I want to respect his life choice.
So am I bisexual?
I would say "no", but in doing so I would be disrespecting the life choice of a whole category of people (non operated trans men, since a "no" means they are females). And if I said "yes" I would be disrespecting a whole bunch of biological gay males, whom I would be leading to think I might be available for a relationship, and I think most of the true bisexuals.

This left me with one conclusion: language hasn't evolved fast enough. We would need a term to indicate phyisical attraction (interest in a certain kind of body), and another to indicate psychological attraction (interest to the self appointed gender of someone). Which might not coincide.
Using words meant to indicate the attraction felt for the body of someone to also indicate attraction felt towards the gender of someone is simply inaccurate and possibly deleterious, In my opinion.
Is my conclusion wrong? Should I be considering the problem in some other way?

[noparlpf]

Well, since the conversation spontaneously went in this direction I think I might feel free to post my question in public.

Let's say I meet a biological woman who self identifies as male but hasn't underwent any kind of surgery or HRT.
I, Kalmageddon, am a biological heterosexual male, thus I might find myself physically attracted by him (the biological woman). If I knew about his life choice I obviously wouldn't pursue a relationship with him, but unless he tells me about it I might want to.
And even after knowing about it I would still look at him and see an attractive woman, because I obviously can't control what my brain tells me is phyisically attractive (a female body), even if I want to respect his life choice.
So am I bisexual?
I would say "no", but in doing so I would be disrespecting the life choice of a whole category of people (non operated trans men, since a "no" means they are females). And if I said "yes" I would be disrespecting a whole bunch of biological gay males, whom I would be leading to think I might be available for a relationship, and I think most of the true bisexuals.

This left me with one conclusion: language hasn't evolved fast enough. We would need a term to indicate physical attraction (interest in a certain kind of body), and another to indicate psychological attraction (interest to the self appointed gender of someone). Which might not coincide.
Using words meant to indicate the attraction felt for the body of someone to also indicate attraction felt towards the gender of someone is simply inaccurate and possibly deleterious, In my opinion.
Is my conclusion wrong? Should I be considering the problem in some other way?

"Androsexual": physical attraction to the male form.
"Gynosexual": physical attraction to the female form.
"Heteroromantic": romantic attraction to the opposite gender.
"Homoromantic": romantic attraction to the same gender.
"Bi/panromantic": romantic attraction to various genders depending on a host of factors.

[Kalmageddon]

That quick list seems to imply that I am not heterosexual but "gynosexual".
I would argue that most male heterosexuals are then "gynosexuals" instead and thus the term should be used far more frequently, something I haven't seen done even in this board.

EDIT: also, at this point, what would "heterosexual" even mean? Attraction to the opposite sex...? Which, since sex is phyisical, excludes attraction towards trans* people, right?

If that's the case, then what would "gynosexual" be used for? Heterosexual, lesbian and homosexual would cover all the alternatives, except for people without clear natural sexual characteristics, who would be then forced to use "gynosexual" when attracted to females and "androsexual" when attracted to males?

[noparlpf]

That quick list seems to imply that I am not heterosexual but "gynosexual".
I would argue that most male heterosexuals are then "gynosexuals" instead and thus the term should be used far more frequently, something I haven't seen done even in this board.

EDIT: also, at this point, what would "heterosexual" even mean? Attraction to the opposite sex...? Which, since sex is phyisical, excludes attraction towards trans* people, right?

I dunno, it all gets complicated when you discuss pre-transition trans people or non-binary people with words that assume you're dealing with cisgender people. I was just suggesting a couple of alternatives that may or may not work. I've barely slept due to some sort of bug so I can't work the rest of this out right now.

[Serpentine]

Hoooo boy, this is the day for it, huh?
This all feeds back into what I was saying about "what are we REALLY attracted to?" I'll do a proper response when I get back to my lappy, since it's something I've thought about a bit.

[Kalmageddon]

If this issue is not to be discussed in public after all I'd be happy to instead exchange PMs with those of you willing to discuss it.
I took the liberty of posting just because the discussion here was already going in that direction, or so I thought.
I can just censor both my posts and take it to PMs yet again.

Let me know.

[SiuiS]

Well, since the conversation spontaneously went in this direction I think I might feel free to post my question in public.

Let's say I meet a biological woman who self identifies as male but hasn't underwent any kind of surgery or HRT.
I, Kalmageddon, am a biological heterosexual male, thus I might find myself physically attracted by him (the biological woman). If I knew about his life choice I obviously wouldn't pursue a relationship with him, but unless he tells me about it I might want to.
And even after knowing about it I would still look at him and see an attractive woman, because I obviously can't control what my brain tells me is phyisically attractive (a female body), even if I want to respect his life choice.
So am I bisexual?
I would say "no", but in doing so I would be disrespecting the life choice of a whole category of people (non operated trans men, since a "no" means they are females). And if I said "yes" I would be disrespecting a whole bunch of biological gay males, whom I would be leading to think I might be available for a relationship, and I think most of the true bisexuals.

This left me with one conclusion: language hasn't evolved fast enough. We would need a term to indicate phyisical attraction (interest in a certain kind of body), and another to indicate psychological attraction (interest to the self appointed gender of someone). Which might not coincide.
Using words meant to indicate the attraction felt for the body of someone to also indicate attraction felt towards the gender of someone is simply inaccurate and possibly deleterious, In my opinion.
Is my conclusion wrong? Should I be considering the problem in some other way?

Love and list.
Lust - "I wish to engage your docking couplings in a mechanical manner"
Love - I have an attraction or interest in the person you are conceptually"

It's perfectly possible not to love a man but still be interested in an abstract fashion with his curves and gibblies.

[Astrella]

Attraction is multi-faceted is the thing, and we (trans people) are generally aware that our bodies aren't always the way we'd like them to be.

I don't think a no would mean they were female, considering there are trans men who are read as men even without HRT. This is just an individual person. The main problematic thing would be say, a gay man dating a trans guy (regardless of what his body is like) and people insisting that's he's really straight and stuff. Some people are more flexible about bodies.

The thing with sex is that it's murky, especially when considering trans people but also when intersex people come into play. People aren't really attracted to a sex, they're attracted to the sex / gender they perceive someone as.

Like, this guy:
http://www.fccfreeradio.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/buck-angel.jpg
was female assigned at birth. Has a vagina, but I doubt most straight guys would be attracted to him, right?

The thing is though, orientation is pretty individual. For some people genitals might be a deal breaker, for others it isn't. Like, I'm attracted to women, but I don't really care about what their bits are like, there's fun stuff you can do with any configuration. :smallwink:

[SiuiS]

Attraction is multi-faceted is the thing, and we (trans people) are generally aware that our bodies aren't always the way we'd like them to be.

I don't think a no would mean they were female, considering there are trans men who are read as men even without HRT. This is just an individual person. The main problematic thing would be say, a gay man dating a trans guy (regardless of what his body is like) and people insisting that's he's really straight and stuff. Some people are more flexible about bodies.

The thing with sex is that it's murky, especially when considering trans people but also when intersex people come into play. People aren't really attracted to a sex, they're attracted to the sex / gender they perceive someone as.

Right. Dang! I forgot to bring up the macroproblematic versus micro problematic thing. Missed opportunity.



Like, this guy:
http://www.fccfreeradio.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/buck-angel.jpg
was female assigned at birth. Has a vagina, but I doubt most straight guys would be attracted to him, right?

Ooohhohoho wow, dat ink~! :f
That's the porn star, isn't it? The tag line was pretty well done.
I am... Confused as to how I would know about this and yet not know more about transsexuality at that point and time. I seem to have just even incapable of seeing without y'all here throwing things at me.

[Astrella]

Ooohhohoho wow, dat ink~! :f
That's the porn star, isn't it? The tag line was pretty well done.
I am... Confused as to how I would know about this and yet not know more about transsexuality at that point and time. I seem to have just even incapable of seeing without y'all here throwing things at me.

Yep, it is~

[noparlpf]

You can also generally only be attracted to [X group] but have one or two exceptions. Like the recent stuff in the webcomic "Rain".

[SiuiS]

You can also generally only be attracted to [X group] but have one or two exceptions. Like the recent stuff in the webcomic "Rain".

Can you, though? That challenges the very basic nature of the labels in the dirst place. Hetero and homo are, by their nature, prescriptive.

Should they be? No. But delving into the how's and why's is a sticky wicket. I'm not currently equipped to do so.

[Astrella]

Can you, though? That challenges the very basic nature of the labels in the dirst place. Hetero and homo are, by their nature, prescriptive.

Should they be? No. But delving into the how's and why's is a sticky wicket. I'm not currently equipped to do so.

I think you can. Like, there's plenty of stories of couples where one of the partners transitions out of the gender(s) the other spouse is attracted to, and they're often the only person of the gender they transitioned to that the spouse would be dating.

And I don't think either category is exclusive, like, we wouldn't insist that a lesbian who came out after having been in a relationship with a guy or multiple guys is necessarily bi, right?

[Kalmageddon]

Love and list.
Lust - "I wish to engage your docking couplings in a mechanical manner"
Love - I have an attraction or interest in the person you are conceptually"

It's perfectly possible not to love a man but still be interested in an abstract fashion with his curves and gibblies.

I'm sorry but this doesn't adress my perplexities.
I'm trying to figure out the various definitions of sexual orientations in relation to trans* people, sorry I haven't been more clear.


Attraction is multi-faceted is the thing, and we (trans people) are generally aware that our bodies aren't always the way we'd like them to be.

I don't think a no would mean they were female, considering there are trans men who are read as men even without HRT. This is just an individual person. The main problematic thing would be say, a gay man dating a trans guy (regardless of what his body is like) and people insisting that's he's really straight and stuff. Some people are more flexible about bodies.

The thing with sex is that it's murky, especially when considering trans people but also when intersex people come into play. People aren't really attracted to a sex, they're attracted to the sex / gender they perceive someone as.

Like, this guy:
http://www.fccfreeradio.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/buck-angel.jpg
was female assigned at birth. Has a vagina, but I doubt most straight guys would be attracted to him, right?

Well, yes and no.
I think a heterosexual male wouldn't because he looks almost completly like a very manly male.
And I think a heterosexual female wouldn't (once she got in his pants) because he has a vagina.
I think he looks good though, so I'm sure there are people that might be attracted to him regardless of his peculiar physiology. It's just that I think that, were I a heterosexual female, I would not feel comfortable being put into the same category. Because that would be misleading.
If you showed me, Kalmageddon the heterosexual cis male, a picture of an incredibly beautiful woman and then told me that she has a penis I would immediatly cease to be attracted by her. Not only because of the lack of vagina, but because the voice is probably different. The smell is different. She simply doesn't have all the things I might find attractive in a female. She has some. But not all.
Obviously having a vagina is not all that matters, but I'd say that it's the first requirement in order to be considered attractive to a heterosexual male, since we define sex by genitals.

Other males might find this hypotetical trans female attractive and I wouldn't blame them in the slightest, but I wouldn't call them heterosexual, because the sex (again, emphasis on sex, and not gender) is the same they have.

I'd like to emphasize that the need for correct words to define sexual orientation doesn't stem from wanting to put a tag on other people, but to be able to correctly define my own sexuality without creating musunderstandings and/or misleading other people.
I had this happen, by the way. I attracted the attention of a trans female and I was unable to properly convey my sexual orientation clearly without offending her and her femininity.
So I didn't and I had to lie, which makes me feel uncomfortable.
I don't think it's right for me to censor my sexual orientation sometimes, which is why I think we don't have an appropriate vocabulary for this sort of things.
Because to the LGBT community when I say "heterosexual" it doesn't rule out attraction towards trans* people. And this creates a whole lot of trouble and uncomfortable situations like the one I described above.

I hope I'm able to properly express my thoughts without offending anyone, but just to be clear I fully recognize a trans woman as female gender. I use the correct pronoun and everything. I simply think that sexual connotations are also a factor and I would like to properly express my orientation on the matter, distinct from my orientation in terms of what gender I'm attracted to.

[Zorg]

his left me with one conclusion: language hasn't evolved fast enough.

It might also be taken as that language just hasn't evolved in the right areas. I mean people can express their own gender identity in very nuanced ways, but attraction has always been around, as have non-binary people (and the people attracted to them for whatever reasons).
People have evolved these new identities but the discussion hasn't happened about the attraction to them, partly due to stigmatisation of trans* people, but also due to the trans* communities own experience with fetishisation of our existence, so many trans people don't like talking about the difference (and also because we sometimes don't like being reminded that it's 'different' to be attracted to us whilst to others it is necessary as they d not feel comfortable within the binary).

On a personal anecdotal level I can say the girl I was with struggled with this question when I came out to her, and she ultimately decided that it wasn't going to work. Physical attraction was a part of it, but there were many other factors that I'm not going to go into more than that - the point being attraction isn't a lump-sum physical game.

Also on physicality the focus on genitalia (such as "And I think a heterosexual female wouldn't (once she got in his pants) because he has a vagina") indicates a very heteronormative view of sex and intimacy. Zinnia Jones had an article on that, see if I can dig it up (need to put out the Lena signal, she's always got Zinnia links). Edit: Here it is (http://freethoughtblogs.com/zinniajones/2012/07/the-assumed-primacy-of-penis-in-vagina-sex/), video and trans(pun!)cript

Also please don't refer to trans people as having 'peculiar physiology' or as 'it', the first one makes us sound like an oddity or curio, and the last one is often used as a very offensive put down.

[Kalmageddon]

Where did I use "it"? English is not my first language, so I might make mistakes, I probably was thinking in terms of "it" the person, which is gender netural I think. Ah, found it. I was thinking about her body, hence why I used "it (the body)". I didn't realize it was offensive to english speakers.
Same for using "peculiar" as an adjective, I just wanted to point out that it's not the norm. What adjective would be appropriate?

[Astrella]

If you showed me, Kalmageddon the heterosexual cis male, a picture of an incredibly beautiful woman and then told me that she has a penis I would immediatly cease to be attracted by her. Not only because of the lack of vagina, but because the voice is probably different. The smell is different. It simply doesn't have all the things I might find attractive in a female. It has some. But not all.
Obviously having a vagina is not all that matters, but I'd say that it's the first requirement in order to be considered attractive to a heterosexual male, since we define sex by genitals.

a) That is factually wrong. A trans woman on HRT will not smell any 'different' from a cis woman. Voices aren't absolutely gendered like that. You can't tell that most trans people are trans is the thing.

And it's okay for a penis being a deal breaker for you. The problem is that this is for you individually. There are plenty of people for who what someone's genitals are like doesn't matter, and that doesn't magically make all of them bisexual. People are more than disembodied genitals, even if those can be a deal breaker for them. (And for trans people on HRT their bits tend to look and act quite a bit different from people of the same assigned gender.) There are plenty of lesbians who don't care whether or not the woman they're with has a penis. There's plenty of straight guys who don't care about that. There's plenty of gay men who don't care about whether the guy they're with has a penis or vagina, etc... So while I imagine it's a requirement for a lot of people, it definitely isn't an inherent requirement. (Also see my little blurb about trans porn a page back.)

And sex is not defined by genitals, it's way more complex than that. Sex is an array of different variables, all which aren't necessarily binary: genitals, body shape, secondary sex characteristics, hormone levels, chromosomes, etc... and no matter which characteristic you pick you end up misgendering cis people over it too.

Edit; Just a big reminder; your personal experiences don't speak for everyone. So be careful about extrapolating from them.

[Kalmageddon]

a) That is factually wrong. A trans woman on HRT will not smell any 'different' from a cis woman. Voices aren't absolutely gendered like that. You can't tell that most trans people are trans is the thing.

And it's okay for a penis being a deal breaker for you. The problem is that this is for you individually. There are plenty of people for who what someone's genitals are like doesn't matter, and that doesn't magically make all of them bisexual. People are more than disembodied genitals, even if those can be a deal breaker for them. (And for trans people on HRT their bits tend to look and act quite a bit different from people of the same assigned gender.) There are plenty of lesbians who don't care whether or not the woman they're with has a penis. There's plenty of straight guys who don't care about that. There's plenty of gay men who don't care about whether the guy they're with has a penis or vagina, etc... So while I imagine it's a requirement for a lot of people, it definitely isn't an inherent requirement. (Also see my little blurb about trans porn a page back.)

And sex is not defined by genitals, it's way more complex than that. Sex is an array of different variables, all which aren't necessarily binary: genitals, body shape, secondary sex characteristics, hormone levels, chromosomes, etc... and no matter which characteristic you pick you end up misgendering cis people over it too.

Well, that still doesn't adress my main concern, which is the lack of proper ways to express being only interested in biological female,only being interested in biological males, et cetera.
There is currently no way that I know of to do that without implicitly or explicitly denying the choice of gender of a trans* person.

Also, I find myself a bit confused when people come foward and try to blur the line between what is female and what is male when talking about sex.
Clearly the line is as obvious to most trans* people as it is to me and other cis people, since they want to change sex and to do that they take all the steps necessary to conform to what it's commonly accpeted as a female or male body.
HRT and various surgical operations are all made to conform to a binary idea of sex, basically.

Anyway, I'm not trying to deny that I'm limited in my views of sex and what I find desirable in a partner, I'm perfectly comfortable with that. I'm just saying that people like me (which there are tons of) shouldn't be put in the same sexual orientation as people with a less narrow view of what they might find desirable in a partner. We should be able to express ourselves just as clearly as everyone else and apparently heterosexual is not a definition that we can find fitting according to the LGBT community because it still creates misunderstanings.

Edit: I know my personal experience doesn't speak for everyone, I have no intention to. It just needs to speak for a significant enough number of people, which I think it's the case.

[Astrella]

Chances of you encountering a trans woman aren't that great anyway, and if she has a penis you can just say "I'm not into penises, sorry".

(And honestly, just completely dismissing trans women / men has always struck me as a bit odd. There are valid concerns of course, such as fertility, but that's not a trans exclusive thing. Of course no-one should feel forced to date someone etc... but I do think it's important to evaluate your own biases.)

Also, I didn't try to blur the line of sex, I just stated biological facts. (And considering that say in the UK for example trans people can get their legal sex changed without bottom surgery, so plenty of people don't think sex is just genitals.)

And not all trans people identify in a binary fashion, or desire bottom surgery, or HRT.

[noparlpf]

And especially after bottom surgery, a trans woman is practically indistinguishable from a cis woman. Some cis women have Y chromosomes (for example, Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome), so even that isn't a universal distinguishing trait.

[nersxe]

Like, this guy:
http://www.fccfreeradio.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/buck-angel.jpg
was female assigned at birth. Has a vagina, but I doubt most straight guys would be attracted to him, right?

I don't care what his configuration looks like, I want to see the rest of those tattoos. (and the rest of his everything, if you catch my drift)

[Kalmageddon]

Chances of you encountering a trans woman aren't that great anyway, and if she has a penis you can just say "I'm not into penises, sorry".


That's nice, so I should just disregard their feelings just because they are not common? Coming in this thread I would have never expected an answer like this. :smallconfused:
Anyway I already had this happen, as I said, with a dear friend of mine in fact, so... no, sorry I won't just say that to a person I care about and I don't want to see offended or hurt.

I'm also surprised to see all this resistence against the idea of language not being up to the task when it comes to sexual orientation.

[Delusion]

Where did I use "it"? English is not my first language, so I might make mistakes, I probably was thinking in terms of "it" the person, which is gender netural I think. Ah, found it. I was thinking about her body, hence why I used "it (the body)". I didn't realize it was offensive to english speakers.


I had same problem for longest time. In finnish, calling person it is merely considered informal rather than offensive it is in english. I call people it like 90% of the time when conversing in finnish.

I'd have to call them 'that' to get the same effect.

[Partysan]

Chances of you encountering a trans woman aren't that great anyway, and if she has a penis you can just say "I'm not into penises, sorry".
Fact is though that it has happened to him and that telling a trans woman that one isn't interested in her because of the parts of her body she herself perceives as "wrong" might not be all that sensitive considering the body issues a significant number of trans people have.

[Astrella]

Fact is though that it has happened to him and that telling a trans woman that one isn't interested in her because of the parts of her body she herself perceives as "wrong" might not be all that sensitive considering the body issues a significant number of trans people have.

Yeah, I expressed myself a bit poorly. I'm not saying it's easy and of course you have to be sensitive about it. You don't have to specify why you're not into someone anyway. (And I'm perfectly aware of how hurtful being told that would be, considering I'm trans myself. And honestly, I'd feel better about being turned down over my bits than because I'm "really a man".)

-----

And language is up to par, people aren't attracted to disjointed genitals.

[MrDirt]

That's nice, so I should just disregard their feelings just because they are not common? Coming in this thread I would have never expected an answer like this. :smallconfused:
Anyway I already had this happen, as I said, with a dear friend of mine in fact, so... no, sorry I won't just say that to a person I care about and I don't want to see offended or hurt.

I would think that it would depend on how long you have known the person or been in a relationship with them. If it was a first date sort of thing, saying 'no thanks, I'm not into penises' might be the best way to go about it.

[Durmatagno]

I'm not saying it's easy and of course you have to be sensitive about it. You don't have to specify why you're not into someone anyway. (And I'm perfectly aware of how hurtful being told that would be, considering I'm trans myself. And honestly, I'd feel better about being turned down over my bits than because I'm "really a man".)

-----

And language is up to par, people aren't attracted to disjointed genitals.

Most people anyway. I tend to stay out of these conversations because I've never cared about the bits I might find. I have different physical characteristics I'm attracted to yes, but the actual bits don't factor in. In fact, there are only a few things that turn me off (Overly masculine for one, and beards). I care more on whats on the inside than the out and can enjoy whatever I find.

[Astrella]

Most people anyway. I tend to stay out of these conversations because I've never cared about the bits I might find. I have different physical characteristics I'm attracted to yes, but the actual bits don't factor in. In fact, there are only a few things that turn me off (Overly masculine for one, and beards). I care more on whats on the inside than the out and can enjoy whatever I find.

I understand that genitals can be deal breakers for people, but what I'm trying to say that it's not just about genitals for anyone really, else straight guys would have no issue dating Buck Angel who I linked above. And if you're attracted to someone it's not just about their genitals for anyone I'd hope.

[Kajhera]

Fact is though that it has happened to him and that telling a trans woman that one isn't interested in her because of the parts of her body she herself perceives as "wrong" might not be all that sensitive considering the body issues a significant number of trans people have.

Indeed ... but having a label for it wouldn't exactly make it any more sensitive. There's only so much work language can do, and I am not sure I see such labels promoting much in the way of inclusiveness or understanding. (... probably, it would be something like cisheterosexual / cishomosexual / cisbisexual, but unless you're specifically attracted to obedience to society's decisions it seems a weird way to put it ...)

[SiuiS]

I'm sorry but this doesn't adress my perplexities.
I'm trying to figure out the various definitions of sexual orientations in relation to trans* people, sorry I haven't been more clear.

Ah, but I did address those complexities.

Specifically, there is no difference romantically* between two men, one cis and one trans. They are both men.
Lust-wise, different genitals can be a deal breaker, but that's not attraction as is colloquially used. They are two filters which overlap. It's taking strain off of one system by having another there to handle germane but tertiary data. Because "has a penis/vagina" is at the same level of importance as "has blue eyes", "has a strong back", "has brown skin", or "has Morton's foot structure".



Well, yes and no.
I think a heterosexual male wouldn't because he looks almost completly like a very manly male.
And I think a heterosexual female wouldn't (once she got in his pants) because he has a vagina.
I think he looks good though, so I'm sure there are people that might be attracted to him regardless of his peculiar physiology. It's just that I think that, were I a heterosexual female, I would not feel comfortable being put into the same category. Because that would be misleading.

Here is a question.
If a man, born a man, gets in an accident and loses his penis and testicles, is he still a man? Is a woman who is attracted to him still straight**?

If a man is born a man but with a birth defect which involves basically mutilation of his genitals, is he still a man? Is a woman attracted to him still straight?

If you said yes to either of those, and yet you would say that a man who we as born a woman and has no penis is a man, but a woman who loves him isn't straight, then you're either being hypocritical about the parameters of discernment, or you're not really applying the same level of logic across the board. It's fine if this is so! But that's a visceral response and not worth discussion except via conjecture.


If you showed me, Kalmageddon the heterosexual cis male, a picture of an incredibly beautiful woman and then told me that she has a penis I would immediatly cease to be attracted by her. Not only because of the lack of vagina, but because the voice is probably different. The smell is different. She simply doesn't have all the things I might find attractive in a female. She has some. But not all.

No, no, you didn't get what I said before about hormones. Secondary sex characteristics are all hormonal; often, a transwoman will be more chemically feminine than you're used to (unless you know only very chemically feminine girls). She will smell female, her skin will have female texture, her hair growth patterns and cellular water levels will be female; she will be 100% female by any scientific definition. Insisting that there is some je ne sais quoi that still makes her clearly not a "real woman" is baseless prejudice.


Obviously having a vagina is not all that matters, but I'd say that it's the first requirement in order to be considered attractive to a heterosexual male, since we define sex by genitals.[/qute]

Sex is not defined by genitals – unless having a hysterectomy destroys a woman? Or an accident can change a man's sex? (They really can't, but food for thought, non?)



had this happen, by the way. I attracted the attention of a trans female and I was unable to properly convey my sexual orientation clearly without offending her and her femininity.

That's not orientation. That's preference. Some men like black women. Some men like redheads. Some men like women with vaginas and only e'er vaginas. That has nothing to do with homosexuality, heterosexuality, etc.


It might also be taken as that language just hasn't evolved in the right areas. I mean people can express their own gender identity in very nuanced ways, but attraction has always been around, as have non-binary people (and the people attracted to them for whatever reasons).

I like the idea of discussing language, but it really does seem apparent that it's merely an issue d confusing levels of abstraction. Trying to treat kingdom, genus and phylum like they're the same tier, basically.

[wrote]
People have evolved these new identities but the discussion hasn't happened about the attraction to them, partly due to stigmatisation of trans* people, but also due to the trans* communities own experience with fetishisation of our existence, so many trans people don't like talking about the difference (and also because we sometimes don't like being reminded that it's 'different' to be attracted to us whilst to others it is necessary as they d not feel comfortable within the binary).

Hmm. It may be just me, but I really don't think there is a different to being attracted to us. It seems so obvious, but then, if it were I could explain it clearer, couldn't I?

also, I'm sorry luv. I forgot that we had someone about for whom this wasn't hypothetical. :smallfrown:


I think you can. Like, there's plenty of stories of couples where one of the partners transitions out of the gender(s) the other spouse is attracted to, and they're often the only person of the gender they transitioned to that the spouse would be dating.

And I don't think either category is exclusive, like, we wouldn't insist that a lesbian who came out after having been in a relationship with a guy or multiple guys is necessarily bi, right?

That's... Hm. I guess I'm just being biased. There's a discussion on the nature of the language and symbolism as social forces, but I do agree with your second paragraph, which means it's pretty clear I know the right answer, whether it's the answer I choose or not.

Pity, I was kinda looking forward to your response on that hypothetical, but now it's not really worth the effort.



Edit; Just a big reminder; your personal experiences don't speak for everyone. So be careful about extrapolating from them.

Aye. It's hard sometimes, and sometimes the best way to grow is to have a nasty snarly social mess and leave hurt and think about it for a week (as I occasionally end up doing) but if what you're after is the truth, then it's much easier to adjust than if you're after being right or being vindicated.



*gross generalization
** bisexual would sort of invalidate the point. Not to be exclusive, but it's necessary for the example ^^"

[Kalmageddon]

I would think that it would depend on how long you have known the person or been in a relationship with them. If it was a first date sort of thing, saying 'no thanks, I'm not into penises' might be the best way to go about it.

The ojbective is not declining the attention of someone in the most effective way possibile. I can do that with just a stare.
The objective is doing in a way that is clear, concise, polite and doesn't carry unfortunate implications for the reciver.
I'm flattered to be found attractive, I genuinely feel appreciated when that happens, be it from a cis male, cis female, trans* or wathever. So I don't want to repay something positive with something negative.
For me it's often bad enough having to say "no", because even if I am kind of rough and blunt I absolutely hate seeing people suffer, even mildly, expecially when I'm the cause.

I don't think I'm being unreasonable or too demanding when I say that the definition of heterosexual is too broad (and consequently other names for sexual orientations, since gays and lesbians might have the same problem I have).
If being heterosexual implies being able to reciprocate the attention of a trans* person, then I'm not heterosexual. Me, and other people who I'm lead to believe are a pretty significant chunk of the population, do not have a sexual orientation that is recognized and legitimized by your community.
This I feel to be wrong.
And since I was under the impression that equal treatment of all sexual orientations is something the LGBT community cares for a lot I chose to discuss it here.

This resistence to the idea I presented is somewhat disconcerning.

[Astrella]

The ojbective is not declining the attention of someone in the most effective way possibile. I can do that with just a stare.
The objective is doing in a way that is clear, concise, polite and doesn't carry unfortunate implications for the reciver.
I'm flattered to be found attractive, I genuinely feel appreciated when that happens, be it from a cis male, cis female, trans* or wathever. So I don't want to repay something positive with something negative.
For me it's often bad enough having to say "no", because even if I am kind of rough and blunt I absolutely hate seeing people suffer, even mildly, expecially when I'm the cause.

I don't think I'm being unreasonable or too demanding when I say that the definition of heterosexual is too broad (and consequently other names for sexual orientations, since gays and lesbians might have the same problem I have).
If being heterosexual implies being able to reciprocate the attention of a trans* person, then I'm not heterosexual. Me, and other people who I'm lead to believe are a pretty significant chunk of the population, do not have a sexual orientation that is recognized and legitimized by your community.
This I feel to be wrong.
And since I was under the impression that equal treatment of all sexual orientations is something the LGBT community cares for a lot I chose to discuss it here.

This resistence to the idea I presented is somewhat disconcerning.

Could you tell me what it is about trans people that warrants a separate sexual orientation for this? Could you tell me what makes any trans person distinct from a cis person of the same gender in a meaningful way? I guess there's fertility, but that's not exclusive for trans people and more a concern about whether you'd want to date someone than be attracted to them.

(And you know, you've very likely found trans people attractive before... you can't see that most people are trans after all.)

[Serpentine]

Alrighty then! Let's see now...

For starters, just to clear a few things up:
1. Being transsexual isn't a "life choice". It's just what a person is, or isn't. You might discover that you are transsexual, but you don't decide it. If you were referring specifically to surgery or HRT, then alright then, that is a life choice.
2. Speaking of which, I think you're aware of this, but just to be clear, there is a huge range of choices on that score that trans people make. (I'll use trans men as my example, since that's the one you use) A person who was born with a female body but identifies as a man might still present as female (though I'd hope he'd be very forgiving of misgendering if he does...), or might present as female in certain circumstances; he may or may not bind his chest; he may or may not use a prosthetic phallus; he may or may not get "top surgery", may or may not get "bottom surgery"; may use HRT and never get any surgery; may get all the surgery but never use HRT (maybe? Not actually sure about that one). He may be a "masculine" man or a feminine one. He may "pass" easily, or he may not - and either way, there's lots of people who would still be attracted to him.


Okay then. So, a long time ago now I did an "are you homophobic?" test. And I totally just found it so I don't have to try and remember it... I'm doing it again just for you. Feel special. Anyway, it has this series of questions:
...
Oh wow, this is more offensive than I remember. Spoilered for the sensitive.
There's a transvestite man we'll call "Lola." Lola believes she's a female born in a male body. She looks, lives, acts as a woman. She is pre-op. "John" considers himself straight, but he is dating Lola, unaware that she was born a man. Is John bi/gay?
Yes, she was born a man
Yes, she still has a penis
No, she is a woman at heart
No, he doesn't know she was a man

Regarding question 4. After discovering that Lola was a man, John is still so smitten with her that he stays in the relationship. Is John bi/gay?
Yes, she was born a man
Yes, she has a penis
No, she is a woman at heart
No, he didn't know and feelings don't change

Regarding Questions 4 and 5. What if Lola was post-op? Would John be bi/gay?
Yes, she was born a man
No, she is now completely a woman
No, it wasn't gay to begin with, as I said...

A person was born intersexed - with testes and the male chromosome Y, but also has a vagina. We'll call this person "Pat." Pat lives her life as a woman and is dating my ex-boyfriend Jim. Is Jim gay?
Yes, because of the Y chromosome
No, only because he doesn't know
No, because Pat can't really be gay or straight

Let's say my ex-boyfriend, while being circumcized, suffered a horrible, irreversible accident. He is surgically changed and raised as a woman. Jim (now "Jimmifer") believes she was born a woman, but is attracted to women. Is she gay?
Yes, she was raised as a woman
Yes, she has the body of a woman
No, she was born a man

Regarding question 22, what if Jimmifer knew she was born a man and was still attracted to women? Is she gay?
Yes, she was raised a woman
Yes, she has the body of a woman
No, she was born a man
My choices this time around were slightly different, but they had the same result:

Gay? No such thing.
You score (which means nothing): ### (scale of -134 to 172)
While your answers seem to be very open minded, they also lacked many answers where anything was gay. Do you not believe in gay people? If you can't see them, can they not see you? Is it not okay to be gay? Is that why you refrained from putting that for any of your answers? Are you tired of reading rhetorical questions? Okay ... I'll stop. God, that was obnoxious. I apologize. I'm just giving you a hard time because I have low self-esteem and it makes me feel better. If everyone were as accepting as you, the world wouldn't suck as much. Word to your mother.
...yeah, it's kinda weird.
Anyway, the thing is, as far as I'm concerned we can't say anything about the sexualities of the people in those questions, because we have absolutely no idea how their attraction works. Take John: Is he attracted to Lola's feminine appearance? Then he's not gay. Is he attracted to her feminine mind? Not gay. Is he attracted to masculine physical or mental traits that he's not consciously aware of? Not straight. Is it pheromones she exudes? If so, are they male or female pheromones? Does any HRT she might be on effect that?
Lola's genitals don't come into it at all. We don't waggle our genitals at each other when we're introduced. I don't choose my male partners based on their penises. I don't KNOW whether anyone has a penis until usually well after my attraction to them has been established.
I identify as heterosexual - heteroflexible, to be more specific, which makes me not a great example, but anyway. I identify myself as that, because it best describes my sexual and romantic proclivities up to this point, and how I predict it to be in the future: most of the people I am attracted to are men. If I'm attracted to one woman - or even several women - that has no impact on the previous statement. If I find myself attracted to LOTS of women, or if I full-on fall for a woman, I might start reassessing my sexuality with the possibility of describing myself as bi/pan, instead.
I have hooked up with a trans woman, and again, it had no impact on my definition of my own sexuality. Was I attracted to her masculine features? It's possible. The fact she had boy-bits certainly helped the technical aspects of it, since I'm not familiar with other people's vaginas. But I don't consider her to be a man, and... not sure how to express it without going into TMI territory, but most importantly, she didn't behave like a man, didn't "feel" like one, at least not like any man I've been with. I saw her naked, boy-bits and all, and she never seemed more feminine to me. She was, almost completely objectively, my first female sexual experience. The boy-bits just made it physically easier.

What I think you need to think about is why someone's genitalia matter so much to you. This person you were so attracted to, who you found so physically appealing, whose mind engaged you so well, do they suddenly spontaneously disappear when you find out they're the wrong sex? Why? What is it about a penis, or a masculine mind, that turns you off so suddenly and completely? That makes you suddenly view them as an entirely different person? If you remain attracted to them despite those features, how does that threaten your sexuality? Why is it that you allow your sexuality to decide who you are attracted to, rather than describe it?
You're attracted to what you're attracted to. If you're attracted to that trans man's feminine appearance, the fact that he's a man does not change the basis of your initial attraction to him. It isn't "gay" for a straight man to be attracted to an extremely feminine-looking man: he's still attracted to the femininity. And I don't think that if that feminine-looking man is trans, that your being attracted to their femininity in any way disrespects his identity: after all, you can't help what you're attracted to any more than he can help his gender.

Regarding language, what you can do, as mentioned, is divide it into sexual and romantic: I could personally possibly identify as bisexual AND heteroromantic. That is, I may potentially find both men and women (including trans men and women, and intersexed people) physically attractive, and be interested in doing physical things with whoever. At the same time, I think it is extremely less likely that I'll fall for a woman than that I'll fall for a man. It doesn't quite do what you're after, but it's a start.

Regarding that trans male porn star: as a heterosexual female, well, he's actually not my type anyway. But if he was my type, he wouldn't stop being my type just because he has a vagina. He still looks, sounds, acts, smells, whatever, like a man to me. And my perception is what matters when it comes to my own sexuality.

Actually, I think that might be one of the main points there: a heterosexual woman is not merely attracted to men, and certainly not merely attracted to cis men: she is attracted to people she perceives as men, to masculine traits, in whatever priority she gives them. She is not necessarily attracted to all masculine traits, and not necessarily only masculine traits - personally, I tend to be attracted to feminine-looking men, I think what I for some reason key as some types of masculine personalities (but only some), and probably some undefined, subconscious, biological markers that I'm not even aware of (since I am fully open to the possibility of falling for a woman but it's highly unlikely that I will, I think that last one is a major factor). Sexuality is not, as you claim, defined by genitals. It is defined by our perception of someone's sex.
What's more, while we're at it, sex isn't defined by genitals, much less sexuality; that's just a handy short-hand that is accurate for most, but by no means all, people - and the exceptions are not all trans people. I think you could benefit by doing a bit of research into the huge variety of intersex, hermaphroditic, developmental defect, hormonal and other conditions that extend, bend and defy the definition of sex well beyond visible external genitalia.

If the genitalia or mental gender of a person are a deal-breaking sexuality marker for you (interesting, by the way, that they're apparently both equally important to you. Not in a bad way), then apparently that is part of the definition of your personal sexuality. But just because that is what defines your sexuality doesn't mean it defines everybody's.
In the situation you listed, you didn't have to lie. You just had to say you weren't interested in her. That's the thing, the only thing, that mattered in that situation.


(so how many people said the same things but better while I was typing that...?)

[SiuiS]

Kalmageddon, did you see my bit about hair color, et al.? I think we may be going too fast, Astrella. I would ask for a decline in pace, so that no one gets frustrated and begins to take things personally. Time pressure makes these discussions far more stressful.

We are all friends, after all, are we not?


That's nice, so I should just disregard their feelings just because they are not common? Coming in this thread I would have never expected an answer like this. :smallconfused:
Anyway I already had this happen, as I said, with a dear friend of mine in fact, so... no, sorry I won't just say that to a person I care about and I don't want to see offended or hurt.

I'm also surprised to see all this resistence against the idea of language not being up to the task when it comes to sexual orientation.

It depends. I, personally, value honesty, lack of deception, forthrightness and respect. It requires respecting someone to be both kind and honest with them. It is a sign of greater respect to hornet lot and politely tell them the truth despite your own reservations. But! In this instance, "I'm sorry, but I don't like phalluses" is fine, while "I'm sorry, but I'm not homosexual" is not. The one is like saying "I don't date Italians" and the other is like saying "I don't date men, and you are a man even though you obviously try to hide it, but that's what you are", which is where that got conked up; there was a polite way to handle that.

Sometimes, you'll hurt people. Doing it gently, sweetly, and with as much kindness as you can to avoid greater future pain is preferable to causing a situation so bad you're still upset about it to this day. Being honest is about not having very much to regret, for me.

For others? I don't know. But that is my perspective on it.


I had same problem for longest time. In finnish, calling person it is merely considered informal rather than offensive it is in english. I call people it like 90% of the time when conversing in finnish.

I'd have to call them 'that' to get the same effect.

Interesting.

For what it's worth I didn't see the line that caused the fuss, so I think I read it as Kalmageddon intended.


Fact is though that it has happened to him and that telling a trans woman that one isn't interested in her because of the parts of her body she herself perceives as "wrong" might not be all that sensitive considering the body issues a significant number of trans people have.

This is true. It is possibly more insensitive to break it off anyway, give her a false sense of the problem, allowing her to dwell on what she did wrong (with faulty data no less!) and also tear yourself up inside when doing it.

As I said earlier, it is a skill one should practice to try and handle responsibility like this with grace. It is hard, yes. This is why we respect those who do so, and allow them some leeway when it is obvious there is no personal attack or any malice to it.

To draw a silly parallel, the reason a paladin can walk up to a temple and borrow the ancient God Spear, and the wizard cannot, is because it is inherent to the paladin they will be kind and responsible with the item, return it unharmed, and comport it with dignity.

[Kalmageddon]

Because "has a penis/vagina" is at the same level of importance as "has blue eyes", "has a strong back", "has brown skin", or "has Morton's foot structure".

I'm sorry but... No, it's not on the same level.
In theory, using your logic, it should. But please just look at the world.
The distinction between male and female has always been far more important then any other physical aspect of the body.

You reasoning is that genital shape and function still just a phyisical characteristic, like having a big nose, or having large foot, and so on.
But this unfortunately doesn't hold any water outside of theory.

Also, if your reasoning is to be taken all the way to the logical conclusion you are comparing the problem of trans* people to those of people who don't like their hair colour.
Do you really want to do that?

[Durmatagno]

(And you know, you've very likely found trans people attractive before... you can't see that most people are trans after all.)

Its actually do to an (accidental) discovery of this nature I discovered I didn't care about what bits you had. Up until then I only though of myself as hetero, then Bi, then eventually I discovered pansexual and its meaning, and now I identify as pan.

[Astrella]

Also, if your reasoning is to be taken all the way to the logical conclusion you are comparing the problem of trans* people to those of people who don't like their hair colour.
Do you really want to do that?

Yeah, but someone being trans doesn't really say much about what their genitals are like.

[Kalmageddon]

Let me get this out of the way before I get pissed off...
No, Serpentine, I'm not homophobic.
I do not want to limit the freedom of LGBT people in any way, I have friends among them, I don't see them as any different in any way other then my sexual preferences regarding them, and most importantly I do not have a phobia for homosexuals.
I do however have sexual preferences. So now if you don't want to have sex with someone you are automatically being intolerant? :smallconfused:

Now that I got this out of the way I can read the rest of your posts.

[Kalmageddon]

Yeah, but someone being trans doesn't really say much about what their genitals are like.

What do you mean?

Edit: sorry for double posting but seeing how fast this thread is going I though there was going to be another post between this one and my previous one.

[Astrella]

Like, someone being a trans women doesn't say much about whether they'd have a penis or a vagina, both are possibilities.

[Serpentine]

Let me get this out of the way before I get pissed off...
No, Serpentine, I'm not homophobic.
I do not want to limit the freedom of LGBT people in any way, I have friends among them, I don't see them as any different in any way other then my sexual preferences regarding them, and most importantly I do not have a phobia for homosexuals.
I do however have sexual preferences. So now if you don't want to have sex with someone you are automatically being intolerant? :smallconfused:

Now that I got this out of the way I can read the rest of your posts.Uuuuh... Where are you getting that from? :smallconfused: If you mean the quiz thing, that just happened to include questions and a conclusion that made for a useful starting-point for my discussion. It could've been "The Are You A Tomato?" quiz if it had the same questions and result. It had nothing to do with you - not least since I did it years ago, and those questions stuck in my mind because of how they define sexuality, not homophobia.


What do you mean?

Edit: sorry for double posting but seeing how fast this thread is going I though there was going to be another post between this one and my previous one.A trans person could have had surgery to make their bits indistinguishable from any cis person's. There's also that, as pointed out, HRT can apparently effect them, and there's a huge array of intersexed and merely variant bits as well, as well as a number of medical conditions and accidents that can change them as well. You cannot know, just from looking at them and/or knowing whether they are trans or cis, what a person's bits are like.

[Mono Vertigo]

My 2 cents:
Attraction and sexuality are very hard to define indeed. How much does the participants' gender comes into play? Their sexes? Their self-definition? How much do lust and romantic attraction intermingle? As a proof of how strange sexuality can be, you can find tons of examples (or rather their direct results :smallbiggrin:) in D&D (and many more in real life, but I decided that this post didn't profit much from a detailed list of such, therefore I'll trust your ability to find more examples on your own).
Incidentally, I don't know how to label myself (well, there's "demisexual" but that defines the libido and its intensity, not the people I might turn it toward). Based on empirical evidence, I'm likely straight on top of demisexual, or bi/pan. Or, who knows, perhaps I'm actually lesbian or asexual, and my BF would be the one exception.
Because of that, I find that the debate, while interesting, is not likely to reach a satisfying conclusion. No, labels aren't 100% effective in this case. They can't be. Because everyone's sexuality depends on different characteristics from one person to another. Perhaps sex and gender are so important to us as a whole is because of social influences (which come from the very simple biological pressure of propagating our own genes, and this instinct might not live forever, seeing how science has progressed and still does). We can imagine in the future that one's sex or gender, when it comes to choosing a partner, might seem as relevant to our grandgrandgrandchildren tomorrow, as one's astrological sign for us today.

As for your last question, Kalma: simply put, there are post-op genitals that are virtually indistinguishable from the cis versions. Inversely, there are cis people who are men (or women), look like men (or women), were born and identified as such, but their genitals simply doesn't match what you might expect from cis people (because of trauma, or genetic oddities, or whatever).

[Delusion]

may get all the surgery but never use HRT (maybe? Not actually sure about that one).

I do not know about transmen, but atleast transwomen are really advised to not skip their hormones after surgery since doing otherwise can cause some serious health problems.

[Serpentine]

If it really does just come down to "I want a name for me", then one was already supplied: you are cisheterosexual. Bam. Or gynoheterosexual or yonniheterosexual, especially if it turns out you're fine with post-op trans women, since phalluses aren't an issue there. Take your pick.

[Kajhera]

If it really does just come down to "I want a name for me", then one was already supplied: you are cisheterosexual. Bam. Or gynoheterosexual or yonniheterosexual, especially if it turns out you're fine with post-op trans women, since phalluses aren't an issue there. Take your pick.

What's 'yonni' mean?

[Serpentine]

Feminine equivalent to "phallic".

[Kajhera]

Ah, thanks. Useful word to know. Would it be used directly like 'phallic symbolism' vs 'yonni symbolism' or is there more involved in conjugating(?) the word?

[Serpentine]

I'll be honest, it seems to be mostly informally used at the moment (but we can change that!), but yeah, you can use "yonnic" and stuff. At least, I do...

edit: Whoops, yonic. One N.

[Kajhera]

Ahh, that explains why I wasn't getting any google results. :smalltongue:

[SiuiS]

I don't think I'm being unreasonable or too demanding when I say that the definition of heterosexual is too broad (and consequently other names for sexual orientations, since gays and lesbians might have the same problem I have).
If being heterosexual implies being able to reciprocate the attention of a trans* person, then I'm not heterosexual. Me, and other people who I'm lead to believe are a pretty significant chunk of the population, do not have a sexual orientation that is recognized and legitimized by your community.
This I feel to be wrong.

I would say you're heterosexual and very mildly transphobic. You're okay with transpeople, up until the point that relations are concerned, then you develop a dislike.
Not to be insulting, though. That's actually fairly common; I was (and maybe still am? There was just the one person who may not even be the same gender as I, or as I was and they thought they were? :? ) very mildly homophobic.



This resistence to the idea I presented is somewhat disconcerning.

You're basically saying you don't want to look like a bad guy, so instead of admitting to a bit of bias you want to drastically alter and restructure otherwise perfectly workable language conventions around your own understanding of sex and gender despite the scientific understanding of then which paints a rather clear picture. Unfortunately, that is silly, and will be resisted, yes.



Actually, I think that might be one of the main points there: a heterosexual woman is not merely attracted to men, and certainly not merely attracted to cis men: she is attracted to people she perceives as men, to masculine traits, in whatever priority she gives them. She is not necessarily attracted to all masculine traits, and not necessarily only masculine traits - personally, I tend to be attracted to feminine-looking men, I think what I for some reason key as some types of masculine personalities (but only some), and probably some undefined, subconscious, biological markers that I'm not even aware of (since I am fully open to the possibility of falling for a woman but it's highly unlikely that I will, I think that last one is a major factor). Sexuality is not, as you claim, defined by genitals. It is defined by our perception of someone's sex.
What's more, while we're at it, sex isn't defined by genitals, much less sexuality; that's just a handy short-hand that is accurate for most, but by no means all, people - and the exceptions are not all trans people. I think you could benefit by doing a bit of research into the huge variety of intersex, hermaphroditic, developmental defect, hormonal and other conditions that extend, bend and defy the definition of sex well beyond visible external genitalia.

If the genitalia or mental gender of a person are a deal-breaking sexuality marker for you (interesting, by the way, that they're apparently both equally important to you. Not in a bad way), then apparently that is part of the definition of your personal sexuality. But just because that is what defines your sexuality doesn't mean it defines everybody's.
In the situation you listed, you didn't have to lie. You just had to say you weren't interested in her. That's the thing, the only thing, that mattered in that situation.

Interesting angle. Well put.


I'm sorry but... No, it's not on the same level.

It's on exactly the same level. Your appealing to traditions which ignore the concept of trassexuality doesn't change that.


In theory, using your logic, it should. But please just look at the world.
The distinction between male and female has always been far more important then any other physical aspect of the body.

You're not talking about the distinction between male and female. You've been given evidence that Penis != Male, and you're ignoring it. Ignoring a fact because it makes you uncomfortable is not the best way to go about things, friend.


But this unfortunately doesn't hold any water outside of theory.

Prove it. You're on shaky ground. I've given you science; fact; clear, verifiable statements and arguments.
You're saying "no, because that's wrong" and that's it. You'll have to actually disprove that femininity (or masculinity) are secondary characteristics. You'll have to prove the importance of a penis as the sole determinator of sex. You'll have to prove that neurochemistry and hormone levels are not determinators. You'll have to prove that there is a verifiable difference at all, really, outside of an artificial heuristic you've constructed and can't explain.

Because those all still stand.


Also, if your reasoning is to be taken all the way to the logical conclusion you are comparing the problem of trans* people to those of people who don't like their hair colour.
Do you really want to do that?

You could choose to misinterpret my stance as saying that, but it doesn't hold logically. You've focused on the end and tried running backwards; that doesn't work. Trans/cis physicality as far as related to orientation is separate from trans and cis as related to personal issues, in the same way that hair color related to sexual orientation is related to hair color and personal issues. That is to say, they are tenuously linked by a few words and not at all by concept or core understanding.

And yes, I would think that if I chose to interpret my own problems as those of a person with the wrong hair color, that would be fine. I am transsexual after all; do I not know my own life and troubles?


More importantly, if you're trying to use a rhetorical device to get out of a precarious situation, you're on the ropes. There's nothing more we can say for you now; you're at the point of almost manic defensive retaliation. I think it's best we just let you have time to think about things, since now we are just repeating ourselves. :smallsmile:


I do not know about transmen, but atleast transwomen are really advised to not skip their hormones after surgery since doing otherwise can cause some serious health problems.

Oh? I thought Karen said the opposite; you want to stop HRT because it increases odds of thrombosis?


Ah, thanks. Useful word to know. Would it be used directly like 'phallic symbolism' vs 'yonni symbolism' or is there more involved in conjugating(?) the word?

Yoni has the 1 n, for most Internet searches. It's a Hindu word I think. Yoni may be another spelling though; I can't tell anymore because all my browsers know my general location. And skew my results.

[Kalmageddon]

Uuuuh... Where are you getting that from? :smallconfused: If you mean the quiz thing, that just happened to include questions and a conclusion that made for a useful starting-point for my discussion. It could've been "The Are You A Tomato?" quiz if it had the same questions and result. It had nothing to do with you - not least since I did it years ago, and those questions stuck in my mind because of how they define sexuality, not homophobia.

Allright, sorry Serpentine.
Everyone is being very civil, but I had previous discussions with delicate subjects and some pretty nasty insults were thrown around, so I guess I was expecting that kind of blow to come sooner or later and when I read the name of the test I assumed it was a way of accusing me.
My apologies, and thank you for your clarification.


A trans person could have had surgery to make their bits indistinguishable from any cis person's. There's also that, as pointed out, HRT can apparently effect them, and there's a huge array of intersexed and merely variant bits as well, as well as a number of medical conditions and accidents that can change them as well. You cannot know, just from looking at them and/or knowing whether they are trans or cis, what a person's bits are like.

Well, this is a bit that I'm actually afraid of discussing.
Look I had written a lenghty post to explain this, but no matter how much I try it IS going to offend someone or at least make them feel bad.
So I'd prefer to just drop the "it looks the same so it's the same" argument, if you don't mind.
Suffice to say I do not find it true and let's leave it at that.
If someone is curious about it and is not too sensitive on the subject you can PM me and I'll answer there.

Edit: I don't have the time to read all the answers posted between my previous post and this one, I'll catch up with you later.
Thanks to everyone that took the time to respond, I really appreciate it. :smallsmile:

[Delusion]

Oh? I thought Karen said the opposite; you want to stop HRT because it increases odds of thrombosis?





Yes HRT is stopped for shortwile around surgery, but after that you have to continue it until you die. Your body needs some kind of hormones and SRS (mostly) stops your body from making them itself.

[KenderWizard]

Yonic is a very useful word and I meant to incorporate it into my vocabulary immediately. Thanks, Serps!


I suggested that two threads ago, but nobody is
listening to me.:smallfrown:

I'm listening to you! ((hugs))


What would you call it when I'm gay but I'm curious about what it would be like to be with a woman? (both emotionally and physically) I've been curious for awhile and I just.. I don't know. It makes me nervous just to think about it. I don't know anything but guys.

I would call that "homoflexible". It sounds like you'd be open to a relationship with a woman if the right woman happened to come along. I think hetroflexible and homoflexible are really useful words.

I'm going to stay out of the attraction argument, I think, except to say as far as I can tell, there's no need for specific words for very specific situations, and that trans people count as the gender they present as for determining other people's attraction. Hardware compatibility doesn't have to come out of the bedroom and into the language of how you identify yourself.

[Astrella]

Oh? I thought Karen said the opposite; you want to stop HRT because it increases odds of thrombosis?

I think I did, and that's just in the few weeks preceding surgery. (Big surgery while on hrt can increase risks of developing thrombosis afterwards.) When you're done with the surgery you can start HRT again.

Not having a sex hormone in your body will have a lot of negative effects on the long term, so it's definitely advisable to stay on HRT. (Though you'll need less of it cause no more testicles of course.)

[Serpentine]

So I'd prefer to just drop the "it looks the same so it's the same" argument, if you don't mind.
Suffice to say I do not find it true and let's leave it at that.That's your hangup, not the reality of others *shrug*

More practically, how do you know unless you try? :smallwink: :smalltongue:

[Durmatagno]

That's your hangup, not the reality of others *shrug*

More practically, how do you know unless you try? :smallwink: :smalltongue:

Hehehehe

*No other comment is needed*

[SiuiS]

Mm. I do hope I still read as civil, Kalmageddon. I'm certainly being civil, though with stuff like this that's often not enough.


Yes HRT is stopped for shortwile around surgery, but after that you have to continue it until you die. Your body needs some kind of hormones and SRS (mostly) stops your body from making them itself.

Oh, I misunderstood you then. Sorry.


I think I did, and that's just in the few weeks preceding surgery. (Big surgery while on hrt can increase risks of developing thrombosis afterwards.) When you're done with the surgery you can start HRT again.

Oh, maybe. You both spoke up, but I only remember really responding... Actually, I think I gave you both short responses. Dang.
And aye, I ne'er said stop forever, I said stop for surgery. I read delusion as saying "don't stop for surgery" and was confused.



More practically, how do you know unless you try? :smallwink: :smalltongue:

Ehhh, that one I'd say don't joke about too much. Having been there, it's very uncomfortable, and everything makes it worse; being serious, being flippant, being Calm, Being upset, being polite, being rude... Everything sucks when you're that uncomfortable. And since I project he's probably there anyway, discomfort-wise...
Ah, but Kal can speak for himself, can he not? I get carried away. Suffice that I request we not joke about trying it out anyway. Squicky.

[Kajhera]

Having caught up with thread ... The hard feelings around bi- and pan- -sexual are kind of scary to me. I'm more or less perfectly alright with identifying as either one, but talking about how to define them leads to such problems? :smalleek: That's ... certainly not helpful to me in picking the right word.

I have preferences, they're bizarre: I've been homosexually attracted to male friends; it's weirdly important to me to leave open the possibility of romancing an intelligent AI or alien race capable of engaging in such activity consensually; sometimes male or female or neither or both or other takes a stronger position of attraction in my mind; the length of someone's hair honestly does make much more difference to me than gender but I feel like it would be really bizarre to look for partners who aren't going to change their haircut, and I should be supportive of whatever hair choices they make or have to make...

Any label I pick for the overall picture apparently might frustrate people very close to in the same place as me, who are attracted to others of many varieties of human. :smallfrown: This is rather strange, and saddening, especially so close to bi pride day. And this is a strange place, as well, to be afraid of talking about my sexuality.

[Worira]

Ehhh, that one I'd say don't joke about too much. Having been there, it's very uncomfortable, and everything makes it worse; being serious, being flippant, being Calm, Being upset, being polite, being rude... Everything sucks when you're that uncomfortable. And since I project he's probably there anyway, discomfort-wise...
Ah, but Kal can speak for himself, can he not? I get carried away. Suffice that I request we not joke about trying it out anyway. Squicky.



Yeah, it's problematic in the same way as, say, a straight man hitting on a lesbian by saying "Well, you haven't slept with a man before, so how do you know you wouldn't like it" is.

[Mina Kobold]

I'm sorry but... No, it's not on the same level.
In theory, using your logic, it should. But please just look at the world.
The distinction between male and female has always been far more important then any other physical aspect of the body.

That is actually not quite true. Many cultures have at different times placed much less importance on physical gender differences than is common in first world nations today. Some accepted a person taking on a gender role as being that gender, regardless of any physical traits, while others placed a much higher value on other traits. For example, here in Denmark, where pale skin meant human and dark skin meant cattle until around 1800, even if people are quick to treat each other with xenophobia all the same today. >_<

Speaking of physical traits; the distinction between male and female != genitalia. As has been mentioned, hormones, bone structure, skin texture, facial shape and a host of other traits are generally very important to what gender someone is perceived as. For example, this entire discussion works exactly the same for a cisgender person whose looks mean that someone mistakes their gender, despite their genitalia and many other traits being classified as male.


You reasoning is that genital shape and function still just a phyisical characteristic, like having a big nose, or having large foot, and so on.
But this unfortunately doesn't hold any water outside of theory.

Seems to from what I hear. Some people think it matters, some don't. Some people find tattoos, certain body shapes, the size of certain body parts, specific muscles, hairiness, facial attributes (such as nose-shape) or similar things very important for whether they are attracted or not to someone. That it is directly involved in common sex acts also have varying importance to people, going from essential to irrelevant. Kind of like how some traits in a partner affect some people's reaction to kisses.

That it is important to you means that it is important to you, which is just fine and wonderful, but does not mean that others have to find it equally important.


Also, if your reasoning is to be taken all the way to the logical conclusion you are comparing the problem of trans* people to those of people who don't like their hair colour.
Do you really want to do that?

As I said, genitalia is not the end-all-be-all of gender-related traits. I personally actually have much bigger issues with my general body structure and facial structure than with genitalia, to be honest, they are much bigger parts of my body and much more apparent to both me and everybody who see me.

However, if someone is really distraught because of how they look with a particular hair colour, then I don't see why that shouldn't also have respect. More analogous to individual traits (e.g. skin texture, facial shape) for me than me being trans, but still only really different in that hair colour is very easy to change. If other traits were so too, most issues I have that are not with societal bigotry would be on the same level. Those societal issues are quite big, though. ^_^'



@Kajhera: Don't be scared to talk about your sexuality, picking bi or pan in itself is no problem and you can describe yourself however you find best. The only issue would be to argue that one is better because the other means something that those using the label don't agree with, like saying that bisexual has to mean attracted to two genders only and nobody outside those or that pansexual shouldn't be used. Just preferring one because you like it or find the etymology more compelling, find that it covers you best in how it is used or anything else is super! ^_^

[Kalmageddon]

Yeah, it's problematic in the same way as, say, a straight man hitting on a lesbian by saying "Well, you haven't slept with a man before, so how do you know you wouldn't like it" is.

Thankfully I'm not the only one who saw that.
Allright, at least now I won't feel like a horribile person for not having sex with trans females...

Not that it's saying much, I'm still apparently transphobic. Now I have my head full of weird thoughts about it being wrong having a trans friend because deep inside I'm repulsed by her sexually. Maybe I should just cut the friendship there, it would be more respectful then faking that I can truly accept her when it's obvious that the standards for what consitutes "accepting" have been set so high that I can never reach them.
It doesn't seem right, though... Can one be transphobic and have a trans female as best friend?

[Durmatagno]

it's weirdly important to me to leave open the possibility of romancing an intelligent AI or alien race capable of engaging in such activity consensually;

Me too, but the odds of either of those happening within our lifetimes (though oddly, predictions say I'm part of the generation that will have the first humans to see 150+ years) are very slim.

[Kajhera]

Thankfully I'm not the only one who saw that.
Allright, at least now I won't feel like a horribile person for not having sex with trans females...

Not that it's saying much, I'm still apparently transphobic. Now I have my head full of weird thoughts about it being wrong having a trans friend because deep inside I'm repulsed by her sexually. Maybe I should just cut the friendship there, it would be more respectful then faking that I can truly accept her when it's obvious that the standards for what consitutes "accepting" have been set so high that I can never reach them.
It doesn't seem right, though... Can one be transphobic and have a trans female as best friend?

... Of course. Why wouldn't one be able to? :smallconfused: You're obviously trying to be considerate, respectful, understanding, and a good friend. And that's really the important part of friendship; it would be extremely strange, for example, if I avoided befriending women because I still have some lingering traces of misogyny.

[Philemonite]

I'm listening to you! ((hugs))

Thanks. Sometimes I think you are the only one, aside from Mat.

There's gonna be another attempt of a pride parade in my country this Saturday. There was one attempt few years ago and city was left in ruin, so I'm not really looking forward to this. I'll try to follow the situation and let you guys know what is happening, but I don't expect much. Actually I expect a lot, but nothing positive. Living in 13th century is not fun.:sigh:

[noparlpf]

Thankfully I'm not the only one who saw that.
Allright, at least now I won't feel like a horribile person for not having sex with trans females...

Not that it's saying much, I'm still apparently transphobic. Now I have my head full of weird thoughts about it being wrong having a trans friend because deep inside I'm repulsed by her sexually. Maybe I should just cut the friendship there, it would be more respectful then faking that I can truly accept her when it's obvious that the standards for what consitutes "accepting" have been set so high that I can never reach them.
It doesn't seem right, though... Can one be transphobic and have a trans female as best friend?

You can be cisheterosexual, like people said, and that's okay. It doesn't mean you're invalidating her identity, you're just not into her for various reasons.
Do you feel like a horrible person for not wanting to have sex with certain cis-female friends for whatever reasons? Does not wanting to have sex with a ciswoman invalidate her identity as a woman?

Personally I don't think I could have sex with a post-op trans person (assuming for the sake of argument that I were attracted to them in the first place; I'm asexual) just because surgeries squick me out. Heck, ear piercings weird me out, and they're almost the default in this culture. Surgical body modifications just make me uncomfortable for some reason, even if they're medically necessary (and I would consider SRS medically necessary for some trans people). I almost didn't want my wisdom teeth out and that's a minor surgery.

[Serpentine]

For the record, I would just like to point out that my joke was in response to this:
So I'd prefer to just drop the "it looks the same so it's the same" argument, if you don't mind.
Suffice to say I do not find it true and let's leave it at that.
A subjective "I don't like the idea of it" is... let's go with acceptable. A supposedly objective "it's not true that they are the same", if you haven't actually put it to the test, is pretty nonsensical, because you don't know whether they're the same in the ways that matter to the act itself, as opposed to one's psychological approach to or misgivings about it.


Regarding the last bit: I am actually refraining from forming any opinion on whether you are or are not transphobic/harbouring transphobic concepts, although I do think that is something that is worth having a good hard think about. But sure, you can be transphobic and have transsexual friends. How often do you hear "I'm not homophobic because I have gay friends" or "my black friend doesn't think I'm racist!" (http://www.blackpeopleloveus.com/)*?

Anyway, you're basically wanting to develop a new term for your sexuality because you think transsexual people are "other", that being attracted to a trans woman is different to being attracted to a cis woman^, when that actually (arguably, granted) falls under the heading of preference - like, say, a bisexual who is only attracted to androgynous people, or a man with a really strong preference for black women. If you accept that trans women are women, and trans men are men, then what you're really saying is "I am only interested in a particular group of women", which is fine; everyone has preferences, even hard lines. Whether your preference is "right" or "wrong" is really a different matter; with regard to the terminology, we just disagree with you *shrug*
(though I'd point out that options were offered)


* That's a parody site, by the way, in case it needs to be said.
^ If you're worried about being transphobic, thinking about why this is so could be a good idea.

[KenderWizard]

Having caught up with thread ... The hard feelings around bi- and pan- -sexual are kind of scary to me. I'm more or less perfectly alright with identifying as either one, but talking about how to define them leads to such problems? :smalleek: That's ... certainly not helpful to me in picking the right word.

I have preferences, they're bizarre: I've been homosexually attracted to male friends; it's weirdly important to me to leave open the possibility of romancing an intelligent AI or alien race capable of engaging in such activity consensually; sometimes male or female or neither or both or other takes a stronger position of attraction in my mind; the length of someone's hair honestly does make much more difference to me than gender but I feel like it would be really bizarre to look for partners who aren't going to change their haircut, and I should be supportive of whatever hair choices they make or have to make...

Any label I pick for the overall picture apparently might frustrate people very close to in the same place as me, who are attracted to others of many varieties of human. :smallfrown: This is rather strange, and saddening, especially so close to bi pride day. And this is a strange place, as well, to be afraid of talking about my sexuality.


I know right? A lot of the time I actually describe myself as queer, cause it sidesteps the specific label idea and it's an awesome word. But the trick, as Keveak says, is pick the one that suits you better (I use bi cause it's more widely used and I'm sentimentally attached to it as the word that finally arrived in my life to put a name to what I am) and then just be respectful of other people's labels. No one gets into a bi/pan argument by simply identifying as one or the other, someone has to start talking about what the definitions are for there to be disagreement.


Thanks. Sometimes I think you are the only one, aside from Mat.

There's gonna be another attempt of a pride parade in my country this Saturday. There was one attempt few years ago and city was left in ruin, so I'm not really looking forward to this. I'll try to follow the situation and let you guys know what is happening, but I don't expect much. Actually I expect a lot, but nothing positive. Living in 13th century is not fun.:sigh:

((hugs)) That sucks, stay safe! I hope it at least goes better than last time. One step at a time.

[Kalmageddon]

Personally I don't think I could have sex with a post-op trans person (assuming for the sake of argument that I were attracted to them in the first place; I'm asexual) just because surgeries squick me out. Heck, ear piercings weird me out, and they're almost the default in this culture. Surgical body modifications just make me uncomfortable for some reason, even if they're medically necessary (and I would consider SRS medically necessary for some trans people). I almost didn't want my wisdom teeth out and that's a minor surgery.

That's exactly what I feel.

[noparlpf]

That's exactly what I feel.

Then feel free to plagiarise everything I just said to explain your own feelings about sex with post-op transwomen.
Also, it's still totally okay to say you wouldn't be interested in sex with a pre-op transwoman because you're not into penises. As long as you don't say "you're not a woman because you have a penis", and just say "you have a penis and I'm not into that", it doesn't invalidate her identity as a woman; it's just a statement of fact that her body is arranged in a certain way and you're not into that.


(Also, typing on a different computer is a pain. It's not that I'm not used to the keyboard. It's that Firefox isn't used to me yet and rejects every other word I type. That I use the -ise endings but the -or endings doesn't help, because I can't just set it to "American" or "British".)

[Philemonite]

((hugs)) That sucks, stay safe! I hope it at least goes better than last time. One step at a time.

Thanks.

I'm not sure it can go any worse than the last time, but I'm not very optimistic. I hope church doesn't interfere this time (No religion and no politics so I won't say anything about it.)
I live about 100km from the capital, so I'll be fine.

[Irish Musician]

Thanks. Sometimes I think you are the only one, aside from Matt.

There's gonna be another attempt of a pride parade in my country this Saturday. There was one attempt few years ago and city was left in ruin, so I'm not really looking forward to this. I'll try to follow the situation and let you guys know what is happening, but I don't expect much. Actually I expect a lot, but nothing positive. Living in 13th century is not fun.:sigh:

You forgot a "t" there :smallamused:

And I hope you have a safe time. And I hope the parade work out a little better this time :smalleek: Have fun, but be safe.

~Matthew~