Weave Points - a combined Fatigue / Skill based magic system

[Siberys]

Based off of ideas I liked from a thread here (http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=174394) on ENworld, I made a tack-on magic system incorporating Skills and gradual fatigueing. I'm putting it here for critique.

Currently, it supports

CORE (divine, Arcane, SLAs)
Psionics
Incarnum
Artificers

Once I get copies of the books, I'll be including ToB and ToM systems too.

A pdf of the rules can be found here (http://www.geocities.com/siberys_thering/weave.pdf).

Possible Changes

Make casting each spell deal a small amount of normal subdual damage - perhaps a bit much, but I want to show a gradual tiring before WP has run out...

Section regerding classes that gain SLAs.

Oh, and I know there's some minor grammatical errors. I'll end up fixing those soon...

Sections that need clarification

Weave Points and monsters
WP and PrCs

Note: the Spellborne and Cobalt Warrior are homebrew classes.

[Gralamin]

Make sure you have a description of what you mean in each table or beside it. For example, What do you mean by Expedite?


If you run out of WP, you become Fatigued. If you then attempt to cast a spell, You must make a Fortitude Save (DC 15 +[2 * Spell
Level]) or become exhausted.
The way this is written, it could mean once your out of WP, or if you just cast a spell. Its always better to sound reduant then to risk a misunderstanding of the rules.

Also Paying 74 Nonleathal or lethal damage (I was confused before, but now I can see now that you meant nonleathal if you succed on the save) is essentialy sucidie. I like it.


The exhausted or unconscious condition lasts for one hour, or until all lethal and nonlethal
damage is healed.
Whatsever more? whatsever less?

You make a lich pay for those d12s

If I adopted this, I would give artificers something to reduce cost for using magic items even more, as they have to use that more than any other

I see you define Expedite later. That isn't a very good way to arrange it



Only classes that hav it as a class skill may take ranks in Weave, as it represents a knowledge so esoteric that one must be a
practitioner of it’s secrets to understand the use of the skill.
Typo
Shouldn't rogues be able to Imitate Weave Points through UMD?
Would it make sense to change an artificer so UMD was unused and Use Weave(infuser)?


Weave Spells
When casting a spell that heals damage, the caster may choose if it affects Hit Points or Weave Points.
Nice. Maybe it should heal weave points equal to the cost to cast it (or cost to cast/2)?


Weave Spell [Metamagic]
Benefit: This Metamagic feat may only be applied to spells that deal or heal hit point damage. That spell now only affects weave points. If the
spell deals a certain type of energy damage, resistance or immunity to that energy type still applies. This feat does not increase the level of the
spell.
Didn't you make all Healing spells also effect the weave though?
All the Weave (x) things have this problem.

Combination ones are also useless because of what you've said before, unless i'm misreading it.

either then that pretty good, would have to try it for balance.

[Siberys]

I just want to note that this is a rough draft...


Make sure you have a description of what you mean in each table or beside it. For example, What do you mean by Expedite?

... I see you define Expedite later. That isn't a very good way to arrange it


Yeah, so I've got to reorganize it - can do!



The way this is written, it could mean once your out of WP, or if you just cast a spell. Its always better to sound reduant then to risk a misunderstanding of the rules.

Well then, I'll end up sounding redundant.


Also Paying 74 Nonleathal or lethal damage (I was confused before, but now I can see now that you meant nonleathal if you succed on the save) is essentialy sucidie. I like it.

got to clarify my statements, then,,,


Whatsever more? whatsever less?

You make a lich pay for those d12s

I'm not sure what you mean... and technically, a lich wouldn't need to worry about that. They can't be exhausted or unconcious, due to being undead.


If I adopted this, I would give artificers something to reduce cost for using magic items even more, as they have to use that more than any other
Good idea!


Typo
Shouldn't rogues be able to Imitate Weave Points through UMD?
Would it make sense to change an artificer so UMD was unused and Use Weave(infuser)?

Like I said, a number of minor errors throughout.

Yes, but that doesn't seem right... I'll have to put up a section regarding UMD.



Nice. Maybe it should heal weave points equal to the cost to cast it (or cost to cast/2)?

well, I wanted WP to work essentially like HP, so leaving it at the normal healing works for me.


Didn't you make all Healing spells also effect the weave though?
All the Weave (x) things have this problem.

Yeah, just healing. This way, Inflict, Harm, Fireball, etc. could deal WP damage. So yeah, it can be "deal" instead of "deal or heal"


Combination ones are also useless because of what you've said before, unless i'm misreading it.

Well, this is like energy admixture. Instead of doing 10d6 Fire damage and 10d6 Acid damage with an acid-admixtured Fireball at CL 10, you'd deal 10d6 Fire HP damage and 10d6 Fire WP damage.

I'd also like to note, if it wasn't clear, that energy resistance, DR, regen, fast healing, etc. work equally well with WP and HP.


either then that pretty good, would have to try it for balance.

Thanks!

[Gralamin]

I just want to note that this is a rough draft...
That was a pretty impressive rough draft then.


Yeah, so I've got to reorganize it - can do!
Well then, I'll end up sounding redundant.
got to clarify my statements, then,,,
Its very common, Something can sound fine, but then some clever munchkin/power gamer exploits it utterly.


I'm not sure what you mean... and technically, a lich wouldn't need to worry about that. They can't be exhausted or unconcious, due to being undead.
Would it be the longer time, or the shorter time?

According to your rough draft Undead take Lethal damage instead of nonlethal. Thus they are paying for those d12 hd with lethal damage.


Good idea!
Thanks


Like I said, a number of minor errors throughout.
No problem


Yes, but that doesn't seem right... I'll have to put up a section regarding UMD.
Sounds like you wil come up with something interesting.


well, I wanted WP to work essentially like HP, so leaving it at the normal healing works for me.
Ah okay.


Yeah, just healing. This way, Inflict, Harm, Fireball, etc. could deal WP damage. So yeah, it can be "deal" instead of "deal or heal"
As I thought.


Well, this is like energy admixture. Instead of doing 10d6 Fire damage and 10d6 Acid damage with an acid-admixtured Fireball at CL 10, you'd deal 10d6 Fire HP damage and 10d6 Fire WP damage.

I'd also like to note, if it wasn't clear, that energy resistance, DR, regen, fast healing, etc. work equally well with WP and HP.
that'd be 35 HP and 35 WP. A wizard with a +1 con would have exactly 35 hp, and way over that in WP.
And That wasn't very clear. Good to know.
All makes playing a troll wizard almost worth it :smalltongue:


Thanks!
You are most certaintly welcome.

[Siberys]

Would it be the longer time, or the shorter time?

According to your rough draft Undead take Lethal damage instead of nonlethal. Thus they are paying for those d12 hd with lethal damage.

Oh... the unconciousness would end once either of the two conditions had been met, hour or HP healed. Though I should note that this won't allow you to become concious after some other effect, but rather JUST from over-exerting on weave checks.

And I can't believe I forget the Undead / Construct rule...:smalltongue:

Maybe I should edit the Undead / Construct thing so that they wouldn't take a ton of damage, but still some. I like the idea that a reason for becoming a Lich would be to specifically avoid negative effects of weave...

[Marius]

I only read it quickly but I see only one BIG problem: It's a very very very complex system.
It's a cool system but I just don't know if I want to learn all of that.

[Siberys]

I only read it quickly but I see only one BIG problem: It's a very very very complex system.
It's a cool system but I just don't know if I want to learn all of that.

Well, in that respect, my system is sort of like combat - the basic premise is simple, but implementation is somewhat convoluted.

The basic is simple - roll a weave check. Subtract the level base from your roll. Subtract that number from weave. If you roll lower than the base, you fail. When you run out of weave, you get progressively more tired. Of course, then there's a number of exceptions...

Anyway, I'm working on two new additions to the system -

Rules on non-spellcasters


Change the Weave skill so that it can be taken CC
Make all non-spellcasting classes have d4 WD


Also, I shouldn't need to worry about a rogue emulating WP - I've never heard of one emulating HP!

nonlethal damage from casting:


Every time you cast a spell, you take nonlethal damage equal to the spell level.


But I think that might be a bit much... Thoughts?

Also, I'm eager to get ToB and ToM. I'd like to make weave rule for those systems...

[Gralamin]

Well, in that respect, my system is sort of like combat - the basic premise is simple, but implementation is somewhat convoluted.

The basic is simple - roll a weave check. Subtract the level base from your roll. Subtract that number from weave. If you roll lower than the base, you fail. When you run out of weave, you get progressively more tired. Of course, then there's a number of exceptions...

Anyway, I'm working on two new additions to the system -

Rules on non-spellcasters


Change the Weave skill so that it can be taken CC
Make all non-spellcasting classes have d4 WD


Also, I shouldn't need to worry about a rogue emulating WP - I've never heard of one emulating HP!

nonlethal damage from casting:


Every time you cast a spell, you take nonlethal damage equal to the spell level.


But I think that might be a bit much... Thoughts?

Also, I'm eager to get ToB and ToM. I'd like to make weave rule for those systems...

Just as long as you have some mechanic for UMD.

nonlethal damage equal to spell level? That seems a bit much, You already Can fall unconscious for using too much weave, this would just make it happen faster.

Tome of Battle would be odd, While Tome of Magic would be much simple (Except for the binder, he's special). Shadow Mages would call upon the Shadow Weave.

[Siberys]

Well, yeah, a mechanic for UMD is still needed. I'll work on that tonight or tomorrow. Maybe, with a successful UMD check of a sufficiently high DC, one could then make Weave checks as a member of a certain class, using UMD ranks in place of Weave ranks? I'm drawing a blank on how to work UMD into Weave... Maybe you could fold UMD into Weave? Although UMD is already one of the best skills in the game...

And on the nonlethal damage? I guess I'll just drop that...

Also, the name in no way came from FR weave / shadow weave. I just always liked the descriptions of mages "weaving" their spells. :smallsmile:

[Gralamin]

Well, yeah, a mechanic for UMD is still needed. I'll work on that tonight or tomorrow. Maybe, with a successful UMD check of a sufficiently high DC, one could then make Weave checks as a member of a certain class, using UMD ranks in place of Weave ranks? I'm drawing a blank on how to work UMD into Weave... Maybe you could fold UMD into Weave? Although UMD is already one of the best skills in the game...

And on the nonlethal damage? I guess I'll just drop that...

Also, the name in no way came from FR weave / shadow weave. I just always liked the descriptions of mages "weaving" their spells. :smallsmile:

Me too actually, its just shadow weave WORKS SO WELL

[Siberys]

HERE (http://www.geocities.com/siberys_thering/weave2.pdf)'s the new version.

Also, ToB won't be hard. In fact, It'll be very easy. Same nine levels, just new skills and new uses.

[Siberys]

The newest version is HERE (http://www.geocities.com/siberys_thering/weave.pdf)


Reorganized
New feats
UMD rules (synergy bonus, may use in place of Weave Checks when using Items)
Rules for non-spellcasters
Clarified monster rules


Any other thoughts?

[Siberys]

whoops... double post. Move on, nothing to see here...

[Siberys]

ToB Addendum (http://www.geocities.com/siberys_thering/tobaddendum.pdf)

How does it look?

And all of the other classes it mentions, that normally don't have Initiator progressions? In my games thay do, hence why they are in the document. If you want to see 'em, go HERE (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=763321).

[Gralamin]

I just would give them the unique ability to recover weave points.

[Siberys]

I just would give them the unique ability to recover weave points.

...maybe. A good idea, too, but in place of what? recovering maneuvers with the check?. But how would I implement it? maybe;

When you recover a maneuver, you may make a Weave (initiator) check as though using the Maneuver. If you succeed, you gain WP equal to what you would have spent.

good? too good? maybe "half of what you would have spent" would work better...

[Glooble Glistencrist]

I'll admit I don't completely understand this, but it seems like magic devices make you pay the weave points twice - once for whoever casts the spell into the device, and once for the person who uses it. Am I totally off with this?

[Matthew]

I like the idea, but I agree with Marius that it needs to be simpler. Spell Points usually support Fatigue mechanics well. The Skill Mechanics should probably operate entirely seerately from regular Skills and incorporate Spell Craft.

[Siberys]

It's complicated? let's see...

Feats; in every D&D thing.
Skill; usage is straight forward. the complications exist in the Base WP amounts. Otherwise, it's no more complicated than other skills with a number of uses.
WP; Here's where the most complications are. A couple of exceptions (like undead and constructs), and the table of WD and what stat affects it for each class. The Really complicated part exists for a single class; the favored Souls faith and AL - based weave bonuses. Otherwise, this section should only be open during character creation, and therefore is mostly cross-referencing on a table.

so, all in all, not much more complicated than D&D in general.

Also, ToM came in the mail today. I'll have the ToM Addendum posted tomorrow.

[Siberys]

And Here's (http://www.geocities.com/siberys_thering/tomaddendum.pdf) the ToM addendum!