Ray Specialist

[Vistra]

Hello everyone.

I have an idea for an upcoming character that is sort of a sneaky gish. I would like to optimize this build to deliver sneak attacks with ray spells and other touch spells.

My race will likely be the Whisper Gnome, and for my class base I was thinking Rogue/Wizard?

After that the logical PrC's would be Arcane Trickster and Spell Warp Sniper.

I was wondering if anyone could offer any advice on some of the following questions I have

-What school should I specialize in, and what two schools should I drop

-What are some of the better ACF's for this build (assuming Rogue/Wizard)

-I was planning on taking Improved Familiar and using it as a mount / combat companion. Not sure if this is a good idea?

-I could use some advice on feat selection. I will gain a flaw at 1st level and considered taking the Combat Wizard ACF for fighter feats?

Look forward to getting this build ready for next weeks campaign!

[nedz]

Unseen Seer is better than Arcane Trickster since it's easier to enter.

Scout might be better than Rogue because Skirmish is more reliable than Sneak, though the best rays don't do damage as such. Try to grab the
Improved Skirmish feat if you do this: Scout 3/Wizard 2/Unseen Seer X would allow you to take this at 6th.

[ericgrau]

You're going to want evocation for maximum damage and conjuration for no-SR orbs at the very least. For rays evocation will make a better specialty at low level but conjuration at level 15+ when SR hits full force. Level 8-14 is fuzzy and depends on the DM. But you want both at all levels. You need illusion for greater invisibility sneak attack triggering, sneaking around and such. Enchantment is often easy to drop. Necromancy has amazing no save debuff rays that go well with your ray feats like precise shot and empower spell so it stays. Even though you don't increase the penalties you still add negative energy sneak attack hp damage to those rays. That leaves transmutation and abjuration which are quite nice but not essential for your concept. Out of the two I would drop abjuration. It's not an automatic choice though. If you have no beatstick allies to haste, polymorph or etc., don't use polymorph, or if another ally covers some of those spells, you might ban transmutation. Heresy, I know, but not every party is the same.

Major feats are precise shot, empower spell and quicken spell. Quicken spell gives you double the sneak attackage, so you may want to pick it up on or before caster level 7 and quicken damage cantrips.

A mount is nice for moving and casting, but so is increasing your regular land speed. A mount doesn't work with skirmish if you go that route. At high level a juicy fragile familiar target is still grants one less attack against you but it's also a painful xp sink every time it dies. A horse may be nicer for being more expendable and replaceable without costing feats or major gold. Unless you find a cheap and easy way to protect your familiar mount. It doesn't have to be invincible and often it won't even get attacked simply from being far away. You just need to limit the xp loss to a few times.

[Vistra]

Could anyone help me understand what would be my main source of gaining sneak attack? At low levels / high levels?

Also how would this character compare to a more typical Gish such as Sorcerer / Abjurant Champion?

[PaucaTerrorem]

Or sorcerer for more spells a day. Sorcerer good for blasty types.

[nedz]

Ray Sorcerers are more traditionally used in this role than Ray Wizards principally because spamming spells is more their style. Wizard is good for flexibility, skill points (due to being Int focussed) and also bonus feats which can be swapped for other options via ACFs.

How you trigger sneak attack is also an issue. You can do this via hiding but that's hard to get more than once per encounter, though not impossible. Greater Invisibility is a solution, but that is a level 4 spell and so not available at lower levels. This is why Skirmish can be better — you just have to move.

The build I suggested above would get 7d6 skirmish at level 15, though you probably want to go with Spell Warp Sniper rather than straight Unseen Seer.

[Vistra]

Ray Sorcerers are more traditionally used in this role than Ray Wizards principally because spamming spells is more their style. Wizard is good for flexibility, skill points (due to being Int focussed) and also bonus feats which can be swapped for other options via ACFs.

How you trigger sneak attack is also an issue. You can do this via hiding but that's hard to get more than once per encounter, though not impossible. Greater Invisibility is a solution, but that is a level 4 spell and so not available at lower levels. This is why Skirmish can be better — you just have to move.

The build I suggested above would get 7d6 skirmish at level 15, though you probably want to go with Spell Warp Sniper rather than straight Unseen Seer.

Skirmish sounds like a great idea, however i'm partial to Whisper Gnome and my DM is imposing multiclass penalties. Also skirmish will not trigger off of mounted movement....

[ericgrau]

If you go sorcerer you need a trick to sneak in quicken later on. And I usually use wizards for blasty types and sorcerers for battlefield control types. Damage is really spell level dependent. Blasting sorcerers is a bad stereotype that needs to die. And it's always a bad idea to devote all their spell known to one thing even on a specialty build. Either class could work though. A wizard should still have enough spells per day in most campaign worlds, plus a slightly higher spell level for moar boom. A sorcerer's spontaneous metamagic helps for converting low level options into high level options, alongside your real high level options, so you have a lot to choose from mid-fight. And you usually don't need your move action. Especially not on a mount if you get one.

If you want a low level sneak attack trigger then try grease or acting before your target does. Foes with less than 5 ranks of balance attempting to balance are flat-footed. Foes that haven't acted yet are flat-footed. You can also UMD a wand of swift invisibility (an assassin spell IIRC).

In general you don't have to get only damage spells. Battlefield control can be good for reducing enemy numbers, and then you and the party finish off what remains. For example round 1 sneak attack against those who haven't acted, round 2 control spell, round 3 if the fight is almost over do some minor damage w/o sneak attack or something. If it looks like it's still going on for a bit then drop a grease and sneak attack for the next couple rounds. Web is good control b/c you can get it early to make up for delayed casting. It has a large area and works well even on a passed save. [Empowered] ray of enfeeblement is likewise nice for smaller enemy groups, with or without sneak attack (which adds hit point damage). Glitterdust is nice control against tight clusters because you can sneak attack blind foes. All depends on foe arrangement, or get all 3.

[Thanatosia]

If you go sorcerer you need a trick to sneak in quicken later on. And I usually use wizards for blasty types and sorcerers for battlefield control types. Damage is really spell level dependent.
Unless you are running core only, by the time you have the spell slots to make any real use of quicken, qualifying for Rapid Metamagic is pretty trivial.

[ericgrau]

Yeup, that was more of a reminder to get quicken by another means.

[nedz]

Skirmish sounds like a great idea, however i'm partial to Whisper Gnome and my DM is imposing multiclass penalties. Also skirmish will not trigger off of mounted movement....

The build I suggested wouldn't suffer multiclass penalties. You are right about mounts, though you could always dismount or cast fly.

[Vistra]

So my proposed build for this sneak attack gish would be something like

Rogue 3 / Wizard 5 / Arcane Trickster 7 / spell warp sniper 5

I like everything about this build except the fact that my familiar will blow due to my low HP and low BAB.

So I am considering an alternative to this build that will forgo the sneak attack, and just basically be a Archer Gish. With a much higher BAB, more powerful familiar, and great archery / ray spells.

Any suggestions on what would make a great mounted archer gish?

I was thinking fighter/wizard/abjurant champion/???

[nedz]

One option is to swap your familiar for some ACF and then take the Obtain Familiar feat. This will allow all of your spellcasting levels to stack for your familiar. You may have better uses for your feats though.

Ed: Also did you look at Unseen Seer ?
You could go
Rogue 2 / Wizard 3 / Unseen Seer 2 / spell warp sniper 5 / Unseen Seer +8
or similarly
Rogue 1 / Wizard 4 / Unseen Seer 2 / spell warp sniper 5 / Unseen Seer +8
which gives you more casting for the loss of Evasion.
Although AT gives you one more sneak dice, it takes longer to qualify for and so you don't really gain anything.

[Vistra]

One option is to swap your familiar for some ACF and then take the Obtain Familiar feat. This will allow all of your spellcasting levels to stack for your familiar. You may have better uses for your feats though.

Ed: Also did you look at Unseen Seer ?
You could go
Rogue 2 / Wizard 3 / Unseen Seer 2 / spell warp sniper 5 / Unseen Seer +8
or similarly
Rogue 1 / Wizard 4 / Unseen Seer 2 / spell warp sniper 5 / Unseen Seer +8
which gives you more casting for the loss of Evasion.
Although AT gives you one more sneak dice, it takes longer to qualify for and so you don't really gain anything.

I was really hoping to go wizard 5 for the bonus feat.

Any ideas for a good alternative that would forgo sneak attacking for a better BAB / HP?

Would replacing rogue levels with fighter and replacing spell warp sniper with Abjurant Champion be an effective archer gish? Would any levels of Duskblade help here or are they only useful as melee?

[nedz]

Well there's always Rogue 1 / Wizard 5 / Unseen Seer 2 / spell warp sniper 5 / Unseen Seer +8
But this trips over the XP penalty.:smallsigh:

There is the Sneak attack fighter (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#fighter) variant.
Full BAB, Sneak, but you will be lacking the skills for either US or AT.
The Thug Fighter (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#fighterVariantThug) variant has better skills, but not quite the right ones.

Ed: fixed link

[Vistra]

Well there's always Rogue 1 / Wizard 5 / Unseen Seer 2 / spell warp sniper 5 / Unseen Seer +8
But this trips over the XP penalty.:smallsigh:

There is the Sneak attack fighter (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#fighter) variant.
Full BAB, Sneak, but you will be lacking the skills for either US or AT.
The Thug Fighter (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#fighterVariantThug) variant has better skills, but not quite the right ones.

Ed: fixed link

Sadly 1-3 levels of a full BAB class will not really help much if the other 17 levels are low BAB. I'll need to do some more research. Right now Wizard/Fighter/Abjurant Champion looks like a decent Archer Gish. Have to consider if Duskblade will bring anything to the table, and also look at other med-full BAB PrC that will advance my spells.

I would like to end up with at least a 16 BAB and minimum of level 7 spells and also be a competent archer.

[ericgrau]

You don't really need a good BAB for rays. They're touch attacks. All you really need is precise shot. The whisper gnome's effective +2 to hit on ranged attacks doesn't hurt, and neither does the +1 from point blank shot. EDIT: Oh, archery. That would be harder. I think that may be spreading yourself a bit thin. And there's nothing at all special about getting 16 BAB for a 4th attack at a -15 penalty. It rarely hits. I'd be more bothered by the -4 to hit overall. It would be hard to be a good archer like that without a full 10 sneak attack dice. Damage not worth the turn you spend on it and all that jazz. It could be an ok low level backup but you don't need good BAB for that during the first 5 levels.


Well there's always Rogue 1 / Wizard 5 / Unseen Seer 2 / spell warp sniper 5 / Unseen Seer +8
But this trips over the XP penalty.:smallsigh:
Isn't rogue the favored class for whisper gnome meaning no xp penalty?

[Fouredged Sword]

I would go with a Strongheart halfling rogue 1 / sorcerer 4 / Unseen Seer X / Spellwarp Sniper 5 / Unseen seer X

You go from unseen seer to spellwarp sniper as soon as you get 3rd level spells.

You want sorcerer due to volley rules. A volley deals sneak attack damage on all hits if it takes a full round action to preform. A sorcerer can take a split ray spell (that is now a full round action due to sorcerer issues) and deal twice as many hits with a scorching ray, each dealing full sneak attack damage. Then you twin it for double THAT number of rays.

And you take hunters eye to add 1d6 sneak attack per 3CL to each of those rays.

By mid levels you should be throwing around 100d6 or so a round.

Also, hunter's eye is low enough level to persist, if that is the direction you want to go.

[nedz]

Isn't rogue the favored class for whisper gnome meaning no xp penalty?

You're right — I'd just assumed it was Bard.

[Vistra]

I would go with a Strongheart halfling rogue 1 / sorcerer 4 / Unseen Seer X / Spellwarp Sniper 5 / Unseen seer X

You go from unseen seer to spellwarp sniper as soon as you get 3rd level spells.

You want sorcerer due to volley rules. A volley deals sneak attack damage on all hits if it takes a full round action to preform. A sorcerer can take a split ray spell (that is now a full round action due to sorcerer issues) and deal twice as many hits with a scorching ray, each dealing full sneak attack damage. Then you twin it for double THAT number of rays.

And you take hunters eye to add 1d6 sneak attack per 3CL to each of those rays.

By mid levels you should be throwing around 100d6 or so a round.

Also, hunter's eye is low enough level to persist, if that is the direction you want to go.

Ok I like where your going with this, but is it possible to do with a wizard? I am very partial to whisper gnome, and the -2 to char is a bummer for going sorcerer.

Here is what I have planned so far, i'm open to suggestions

1 Rogue / 5 Wizard / 5 Spellwarp Sniper / 9 Arcane Trickster.

This is pretty much full caster progression (19th lvl) and 7d6 of sneak attack damage (1d6 from rogue + 2d6 from SwS + 4d6 from Arcane Trickster) so casting disintegrate would deal 17 X 2d6 damage + 7d6 = 41d6 damage

Now that I have a good idea of what this build will look like, can anyone help me out with Feat selection? What are some of the feats that will improve my rays? I'm pretty sure a lot of the archery feats such as Point Blank, Precise, and Rapid shot will all benefit me?

What are some others that would stand out for this build?

[nedz]

Fouredged Sword's trick only works with Sorcerers, and only then when they use Metamagic to extend the casting to be a full round action.

Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot are probably necessary but Rapid Shot only works with bows etc.

[Firebug]

The whole point of sorcerer (which Fouredged already explained) is that when you use a full action attack you are allowed to apply sneak attack damage to every single attack, otherwise you can only apply it to one of those attacks.

With a twinned split ray Scorching Ray (assuming Complete split, not Tome and Blood split) you are getting 8 rays. Each of those 8 rays, does 4d6 damage base, + 7d6 sneak attack damage from class levels. Plus another 6d6 sneak attack from Hunter's eye. So 21d6 damage x 8 or 168d6 damage. Fouredged was not joking when he was talking about 100's x6's.

I actually prefer a little more gish and spellthief instead of rogue.
Gray Elf Trickster Spellthief 1/ Elf Generalist Wizard 3/ Wilderness Rogue 1/ Unseen Seer 2/ Dragonslayer 1/ Spellsword 1/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Unseen Seer 6(more) . For a large amount of skill points and list, 16 Base attack (for the 4th iterative attack, assuming Fractional Base Attack), 9th level spells at 24th caster level (28th for arcane divination spells). You can steal up to 9th level spells from another caster, and hold . Proficiency with all Martial Weapons, Shields and Armor ignoring 10% arcane spell failure (+1 Githcraft Mithril Fullplate of Twilight is ~15k gold for 10% arcane spell failure). Shield spell gives an additional +5 AC and is freely quickened and extended (along with all other abjurations 3rd level and lower). Permanent Nondetection (ie, opponents have to beat a caster level check DC 39 to magically tell if you are lying, or scry on you, or detect your alignment, or even if your gear glows magical). 5d6 Sneak Attack (+ another 9d6 from a persisted Hunter's Eye, + another 8d6 melee sneak attack if you wanted to Polymorph any Object yourself into a Kelvezu Demon(plus at-will con poison, 15 natural armor, look human-ish)). Also immune to fear.. For this build you need Dragon 353 (For the trickster spellthief variant, you can go without it if you don't mind), and Dragonomicon (for Dragonslayer). A few of the complete books as well and races of the wild for the elf wizard. This doesn't have the sorcerer for volley fire, but that is easily swapped out (especially if you go battle sorcerer for the extra base attack). You just need a decent Int for the required skills.

[Vistra]

The whole point of sorcerer (which Fouredged already explained) is that when you use a full action attack you are allowed to apply sneak attack damage to every single attack, otherwise you can only apply it to one of those attacks.

With a twinned split ray Scorching Ray (assuming Complete split, not Tome and Blood split) you are getting 8 rays. Each of those 8 rays, does 4d6 damage base, + 7d6 sneak attack damage from class levels. Plus another 6d6 sneak attack from Hunter's eye. So 21d6 damage x 8 or 168d6 damage. Fouredged was not joking when he was talking about 100's x6's.

I actually prefer a little more gish and spellthief instead of rogue.
Gray Elf Trickster Spellthief 1/ Elf Generalist Wizard 3/ Wilderness Rogue 1/ Unseen Seer 2/ Dragonslayer 1/ Spellsword 1/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Unseen Seer 6(more) . For a large amount of skill points and list, 16 Base attack (for the 4th iterative attack, assuming Fractional Base Attack), 9th level spells at 24th caster level (28th for arcane divination spells). You can steal up to 9th level spells from another caster, and hold . Proficiency with all Martial Weapons, Shields and Armor ignoring 10% arcane spell failure (+1 Githcraft Mithril Fullplate of Twilight is ~15k gold for 10% arcane spell failure). Shield spell gives an additional +5 AC and is freely quickened and extended (along with all other abjurations 3rd level and lower). Permanent Nondetection (ie, opponents have to beat a caster level check DC 39 to magically tell if you are lying, or scry on you, or detect your alignment, or even if your gear glows magical). 5d6 Sneak Attack (+ another 9d6 from a persisted Hunter's Eye, + another 8d6 melee sneak attack if you wanted to Polymorph any Object yourself into a Kelvezu Demon(plus at-will con poison, 15 natural armor, look human-ish)). Also immune to fear.. For this build you need Dragon 353 (For the trickster spellthief variant, you can go without it if you don't mind), and Dragonomicon (for Dragonslayer). A few of the complete books as well and races of the wild for the elf wizard. This doesn't have the sorcerer for volley fire, but that is easily swapped out (especially if you go battle sorcerer for the extra base attack). You just need a decent Int for the required skills.

Wow, that is a lot of damage! Probably overkill? I'm thinking (this crazy trick aside) that Wizard may be the better class for this build?

[Firebug]

... Of course if you allowed some 3.0 material (that wasn't updated to 3.5 but should have been) check out Acid Orb (not Orb of Acid) from Tome and Blood. You can split it up to 15 times (at 1d6 damage each) and it requires a ranged touch attack for each. With the above extra 17d6 sneak attack.... and twin spell.... 540d6 .... Chunky salsa.

[Psyren]

With a twinned split ray Scorching Ray (assuming Complete split, not Tome and Blood split) you are getting 8 rays. Each of those 8 rays, does 4d6 damage base, + 7d6 sneak attack damage from class levels. Plus another 6d6 sneak attack from Hunter's eye. So 21d6 damage x 8 or 168d6 damage. Fouredged was not joking when he was talking about 100's x6's.

Actually... this won't work. Rules Compendium:


Multiple Hits

Some weaponlike spells can strike multiple times in the same round. When the caster receives a bonus on damage rolls or some form of extra damage (such as precision damage) with such spells, the extra damage applies only on the first attack, whether that attack hits or not.

Scorching Ray will do sneak attack, but only with the first ray - all the rest will not, including if you twin/split/etc it.

[Firebug]

Continue reading, Under Precision Damage:

Precision damage applies on any attack that meets the requirements of the ability that grants the damage. This includes multiple attacks made during a full attack. If conditions somehow change between multiple attacks, attacks that not longer meet the ability’s requirements can’t deal precision damage.

A form of attack that enables an attacker to make multiple attacks during an action other than a full-round action, such as the Manyshot feat (standard action) or a quickened scorching ray (swift action), allows precision damage to be applied only to the first attack in the group.

So again, if you take a full-round action to cast a spell, you can sneak attack on all of the attacks that qualify (ie, target is denied dex).

[MesiDoomstalker]

Continue reading, Under Precision Damage:


So again, if you take a full-round action to cast a spell, you can sneak attack on all of the attacks that qualify (ie, target is denied dex).

While this is all technically RAW, like everything that has the 'technically' qualifier, it's something you should point out to your DM first to make sure he doesn't fix/nerf it so your not throwing triple digit d6's.

[Firebug]

Oh, I agree. It definitely falls under the "Don't be a D" rule for me. But when you can shatter reality anyway... whats a few more d6 damage?

I mean, I considered dropping 7 ranged touch attacks with 3d6 sneak attack on my Rogue 1/Wizard 5/Assassin 1/Arcane Trickster 2, but I decided it didn't fit the power level of the game. "Core 3.5" with Tome and Blood/Defenders of the Faith supplements only. I decided Animate dead would be more fitting and useful since my party needs a few more meat shields to soak some damage.

[ericgrau]

Continue reading, Under Precision Damage:


So again, if you take a full-round action to cast a spell, you can sneak attack on all of the attacks that qualify (ie, target is denied dex).
That doesn't mean that a full round action works. It only means that anything is not a full round action doesn't work. Various full round actions besides a full attack could still fail on the trick. And I would think from the earlier paragraph and from complete mage that any volley spell attack does not work for applying SA multiple times, regardless of action type.

I didn't realize that quicken doesn't work either. That's news to me.

Besides Complete Mage and probably Rules Compendium, here is additional confirmation on the volley rule: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040309a
It likewise nixes effects like twin spell or any such trick from applying sneak attack multiple times.

[Psyren]

Oh, I agree. It definitely falls under the "Don't be a D" rule for me. But when you can shatter reality anyway... whats a few more d6 damage?

It's the difference between the DM designing every battle to specifically counter you or not, that's what it is. When you can basically one-shot anything that isn't sneak-immune, expect a lot of oozes, constructs and undead to start slipping into your campaign.

[Vistra]

So if i'm understanding everyone correctly, can I only apply my SA damage once per round in any given situation? Ex. Casting scorching ray will only allow me to apply SA once? Quicken also?

[TuggyNE]

So if i'm understanding everyone correctly, can I only apply my SA damage once per round in any given situation? Ex. Casting scorching ray will only allow me to apply SA once? Quicken also?

Once per (non-full-round) action. Casting scorching ray followed by Quickened scorching ray will get you two sneak attacks, whether you shot two rays or six (or eight, or 12, or 16, or however many). Casting Empowered scorching ray as a sorcerer without Rapid Metamagic or similar, however, will get you as many sneak attacks as you have rays, if my understanding is correct.

[nedz]

Once per (non-full-round) action. Casting scorching ray followed by Quickened scorching ray will get you two sneak attacks, whether you shot two rays or six (or eight, or 12, or 16, or however many). Casting Empowered scorching ray as a sorcerer without Rapid Metamagic or similar, however, will get you as many sneak attacks as you have rays, if my understanding is correct.

This is RAW as I understand it too, but you may want to run it past your DM.

Note: Twin Spell is better than Empowered, because More rays = More sneak dice and Empowered doesn't apply to your sneak damage.

You do need a reliable way of triggering sneak though.

[Vistra]

Alright guys, you've all been super helpful. I appreciate it.

Campaign starts tonight and my build is almost in order. Just a few more questions.

- Do you guys think that Wizard or Sorcerer is a better base for this build?

- I'm still stuck on feat selection. Craven for added SA bonus looks great, as does Point Blank Shot and Precise shot. But what are some of the magic feats I want to increase my rays potency?

[Fouredged Sword]

Twin will let you cast more spells a round. Quicken will do the same.

Cloud on knives is a great spell for you. It is a free action attack each round that gets the sneak attack extra damage.

Fell weaken and Fell shaken are also feats I like. They apply no save debuffs to damage spells, and because a sneak attack ray specialist can get a lot of damage out of a low level spell, they can add riders to low level ray spells using higher level slots.

[Baron Malkar]

If you use the magelord (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050202a&page=2) prc you can prepare spells like the wizard but spontaneously convert those spells into your rays and get the metamagic casting time increase of the sorcerer.

[nedz]

Wizard is better for skills, since it's Int based. Also there's an ACF which allows you to swap Scribe Scroll for a Fighter feat. (Combat Wizard (UA, p 59): Lose scribe scroll and wizard bonus feats, get bonus feats as a fighter — also here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wizard))

Sorcerer is better for Damage and Spamming spells, though a Focussed Specialist Wizard can match this. It's also good for Cha based skills should you want to be the party face.

[Fouredged Sword]

Also, note that as a sorcerer, if you avoid spells with saves and focus on attack roll spells, you can put much less of a focus on charisma. Having a starting charisma of 13-14 and then boosting it to 19 with items is possible. This frees up point buy for dex, int, and con. As you are likely to be using lower level slots and spamming the same spell over and over, memento morri are the way to go for more spell slots.

[Vistra]

Ok you guys are really starting to sway me toward Sorcerer. I don't know much about magic in 3.5 as I've usually played martial characters.

So what is it that sorc's have the advantage over wizards? I hear metamagic come up lots but have no idea what it is?

Also sorc's cast spontaniously? How does this benifit this build?

Lastly do I get more rays to cast as a sorcerer?

If I do go with the sorcerer my stats using the 25 point buy would look like this, (please let me know if I should make adjustments) this is after Whisper Gnome Racials

Str 8
Dex 16
Con 13
Int 12
Wis 8
Cha 14

AND if I do go with a specilized focused wizard I have to give up 3 schools for more spells per day in my chosen school?? Is this how this works?

If so what 3 schools should I give up for this build? I need lots of rays and stealth abilitys right? Also buffs?

[Fouredged Sword]

Ok, sorcerer VS wizard - The basics

Sorcerers cast spells from a pre-selected list. This is called spontanious casting. It is good if you want to use a small selection of spells over and over again. They get a good number of spell slots, and they can cast any spell of a given level OR LOWER from any given spell slot.

This means that they also suffer from the penalty of having any spell they cast using metamagic as a full round action.

Wizards have a spellbook that can contaim any number of spells written in it. At the start of the day they must memorizes a particular set of spells that they can cast for the day. This makes their day to day list vary flexible, but their casting for the day fixed to a set number of each spell.

Sorcerers must be very careful about the spells they pick as spells known. Wizards have to be very careful about the spells they fill their spell slots with.

Metamagic feats are a type of feat that allows you to alter a spell in some fashion to do more that it's normal ability. Things like empower raise the damage of a spell, or split ray divides a ray into twice as many rays that each deal half damage. A sorcerer can apply these at will, but must spend a full round to cast them. A wizard must apply these when he prepares his spells, but does not suffer increased casting time. Normaly these feats change the spell slot a spell takes. This means that you must use a higher level spell slot to power the spell.

Some of them are very good. Some are not so good.

Note, Wizard is generally considered more powerful that sorcerer. Sorcerer can be easier to play for a beginner, just read the handbooks and be careful selecting your spells known.

[Vistra]

Ok, sorcerer VS wizard - The basics

Sorcerers cast spells from a pre-selected list. This is called spontanious casting. It is good if you want to use a small selection of spells over and over again. They get a good number of spell slots, and they can cast any spell of a given level OR LOWER from any given spell slot.

This means that they also suffer from the penalty of having any spell they cast using metamagic as a full round action.

Wizards have a spellbook that can contaim any number of spells written in it. At the start of the day they must memorizes a particular set of spells that they can cast for the day. This makes their day to day list vary flexible, but their casting for the day fixed to a set number of each spell.

Sorcerers must be very careful about the spells they pick as spells known. Wizards have to be very careful about the spells they fill their spell slots with.

Metamagic feats are a type of feat that allows you to alter a spell in some fashion to do more that it's normal ability. Things like empower raise the damage of a spell, or split ray divides a ray into twice as many rays that each deal half damage. A sorcerer can apply these at will, but must spend a full round to cast them. A wizard must apply these when he prepares his spells, but does not suffer increased casting time. Normaly these feats change the spell slot a spell takes. This means that you must use a higher level spell slot to power the spell.

Some of them are very good. Some are not so good.

Note, Wizard is generally considered more powerful that sorcerer. Sorcerer can be easier to play for a beginner, just read the handbooks and be careful selecting your spells known.

So if i'm reading this right, using any metamagic as a sorcerer takes a full round action. If i'm mounted (which I plan to be on my familiar) then I can take a full round action and still move (with my mounts movement). So this might compensate for having to take a full round action.

So we talked about this before, and has it been ruled that sorcerers cannot use multiple sneak attack die on spells such as scorching ray, even if it were metamagic?

Also, how do those stats look? Would you switch any?

Thanks again for all your help. I'm starting to get a grip on casters thanks to you guys.

[Fouredged Sword]

I would be very tempted to drop your dex a little to boost your con. Con is very, very important. I do not recommend any character for play with less than a 14 con. It would be better to start with a 14 con and a 15 dex than a 16 dex and 13 con.

Oh, and if we are only doing a 1 level dip in rogue, consider spellthief instead. There is a feat that you can take after a spellthief dip (Master Spellthief, complete scoundrel) that allows you to cast in light armor. That is very nice for an arcane spellcaster.

[Firebug]

Master Spellthief does not allow you to cast your wizard/sorcerer spells in light armor. It allows you to cast stolen spells in light armor.

But the important part of Master Spellthief is that it allows you to increase your caster level. You determine your caster level for spellthief spells (and max level of spell you can steal) and your caster level for wizard/sorcerer spells by adding together your caster level for Spellthief and Wizard (actually any other arcane classes you have*). Which means, if you take practiced spellcaster (possibly twice, once for Spellthief and once for Wizard), you can increase your caster level beyond your character level. Note: this is just caster level, not spells known or per day.

*If you do something like Spellthief 1/Wizard X/ Assassin 1/ Ultimate Magus x/ Other classes that give their own spell lists/progessions and you are using Bloodlines (or many feats dedicated to Practiced Spellcaster) you can get some pretty high caster levels pre-epic.

[Fouredged Sword]

Nope, it clearly states



In addition, you do not incur a chance of arcane spell failure for arcane spells cast OR stolen from other classes, but only if you are wearing light armor."


- Complete Scoundrel, PG 79, bolded part my emphasis.

You can cast a spell from another class OR cast a spell stolen from another class.

[Firebug]

Fair enough, I glossed over the 'or'. That makes it even more likely that I'll argue my restrictive DM to allow books other then Core 3.5 + Defenders of the Faith and Tome and Blood only.

[nedz]

Nope, it clearly states

- Complete Scoundrel, PG 79, bolded part my emphasis.

You can cast a spell from another class OR cast a spell stolen from another class.

Actually the text which follows that line makes this even more explicit.

Also Practiced Spellcaster does not allow you to increase CL beyond your HD which limits that trick, even if you choose to apply it first.

On the other hand Practiced Spellcaster would be a useful feat for the OP to consider in most gish type builds.

[Fouredged Sword]

Now RAW you could cast in full plate as long as you first put on leather armor. You would suffer slightly more armor check penalty, but so long as you are wearing light armor armor you don't suffer arcane spell casting failure chance. :smalltongue:

But RAW is silly

[Firebug]

Actually the text which follows that line makes this even more explicit.

Also Practiced Spellcaster does not allow you to increase CL beyond your HD which limits that trick, even if you choose to apply it first.

On the other hand Practiced Spellcaster would be a useful feat for the OP to consider in most gish type builds.

Right, so a Spellthief 1 /Wizard 5 chooses Practiced Spellcaster(Spellthief). His Spellthief caster level is now 5* and Wizard caster level is currently 5. He then acquires Master Spellthief for his 6 level feat. His Spellthief Caster Level is now 10, and Wizard Caster level is also 10.

*Assuming Trickster Spellthief, regular version doesn't actually have a caster level until level 4.

[nedz]

This benefit can't increase your caster level to higher than your Hit Dice.
Both CLs are capped at 6.

[Firebug]

At no point is the benefit from Practiced Spellcaster increasing your caster level beyond your HD because the player gets to choose the order of operations. For an example: Unseen Seer's Divination Power. It decreases your caster level for non-arcane divinations but also increases your caster level for arcane divinations. Practiced Spellcaster is suggested very often to offset the penalty and is common used between the decreasing of all caster levels and increasing of divination only, leading to divinations being a higher caster level then your HD.

[ericgrau]

Ok, sorcerer VS wizard - The basics

Sorcerers cast spells from a pre-selected list. This is called spontanious casting. It is good if you want to use a small selection of spells over and over again. They get a good number of spell slots, and they can cast any spell of a given level OR LOWER from any given spell slot.
This is bad misinformation, especially for a new player. They have roughly the same number of spells prepared, and only a little more per day too. There's only a small difference there. And intentionally limiting yourself to the same kind of spells to cast over and over again is a Bad idea with a capital B. You can't even accomplish that because you have the same 5 round fights that a wizard does, and both of you have more than 5 spells per day.

The bigger difference is you can't swap your spells out, which only happens with 24 hours of planning. New players rarely put in 24 hours of planning. The actual difference this makes for a new player is it lets them correct mistakes, which you can't do on a sorcerer. It's better to start out on a wizard for this reason, because you can change your selection as you learn. Or have someone else build your sorcerer, or put in a TON of planning. There is also an advantage where unlike a wizard you don't have to prepare duplicates of a spell in case you do want to cast something twice. So then you can devote your other spells known to non-damage things. If you want to do non-damage things too then the sorcerer can have the advantage.

Otherwise there's not much difference between the two for a new player. And telling someone to pick all of the same kinds of spells or to try to spam anything in a game where time is limited is equally 50 kinds of messed up bad advice on either class. In fact besides getting secondary options on both, you want to devote your low level spells to between combat things because on both you have so many options and so many spells per day. Neither is severely limited in either; both classes are way overloaded on both options and spells per day in fact.

So pick your flavor. Just don't limit yourself to casting a damage spell over and over again when both have way too many options and spells per day to make that necessary. You can boom and be tricky too.

[Vistra]

Well although i am partial to the idea of a Sorcerer rather then a Wizard, I am not willing to part with my beloved Whisper Gnome race.

To me the -2 they get to Charisma is enough of a reason to choose Wizard over Sorcerer?

Unless of course a Ray weilding sneak attack arcane trickster relies less on Charisma and I could get away with a starting stat array of

9 str
14 dex
14 con
12 int
8 wis
14 cha

(or 16 dex and 12 con)

What do you guys think?

[Fouredged Sword]

You could drop that cha to a 12 or 11 and put a point into it as you level if you really wanted. You would have a hard time making saves stick, but your no-save rays wouldn't even notice. I think someone determined that a sorcerer can keep enough int going to get all his spells at all levels starting with a casting stat of 11. You get wealth and stat boosts fast enough to keep up with stat = max spell level your whole career.

Wizard is considered the more powerful class for a reason though. They can get extra spell slots for 2/3rds the cost (pearls of power are cheaper that the spontaneous equivalent) and they have much greater access to spells.

A specialist removes all spells from the opposing schools from their spell list. Note the sorc/wis list is organized by school. A specialist gets 1 extra spell slot to use with his school spells, but gives up 2 schools (except divination, who gives up 1)

A focused specialist is like a specialist, but gives up 3 schools and one generic spell slot, but in return gets 3 spells slots to dedicate to his school spells.

A ray specialist could focus on evocation or conjuration. I would keep necromancy as it has some nice rays. Give up enchantment, and maybe abjuration. Illusion has some nice sneaky spells, but you have the skills to get away with just using hide to hide, they would hurt to lose them, but not too much.

Really you could lose evocation as well. Conjuration has the orb spells, and they are some of the best rays out there.

You don't NEED to specialize though. You will have plenty of slots soon enough.

Note the spontaneous divination ACF. It is worth the feat you get at 5th level.

I also recommend Unseen Seer over Arcane Trickster. You get to add divination from other classes to your spell list, and that includes hunter's eye for more sneak attack damage. You are likely to take practical spellcaster anyway, so you will ignore the hit to caster levels for non-divination spells and still get the bonus to divinations.

[ericgrau]

Well although i am partial to the idea of a Sorcerer rather then a Wizard, I am not willing to part with my beloved Whisper Gnome race.

To me the -2 they get to Charisma is enough of a reason to choose Wizard over Sorcerer?

Unless of course a Ray weilding sneak attack arcane trickster relies less on Charisma and I could get away with a starting stat array of

9 str
14 dex
14 con
12 int
8 wis
14 cha

(or 16 dex and 12 con)

What do you guys think?
The comment that you don't need charisma for rays is correct; there's no save DC. If you really like sorcerer now then play sorcerer, even if you go whisper gnome. Some but not all alternate non-damage spells may suffer a little, but a -1 to the save DC won't kill the ones that do have a save. Either class is fine regardless of style and spells used. More importantly whisper gnome gives you +2 to hit, +1 touch AC and great stats overall. I doubt you'll find a better race for a ray caster even for a sorcerer (or for a wizard).

[Vistra]

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[Fouredged Sword]

Also, one of the books somewhere has an explanation of how sneak attack interacts with spells that deal things like negative levels or ability damage. It boils down to them dealing HP damage from the sneak attack + the normal effect.

Look these up, as they make great spells when you can combine a great debuff like negative levels with some extra damage from your sneak attack.

[Vistra]

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[Fouredged Sword]

You give up the bonus feats you get a wizard 5, 10, 15 and 20, but in return can spontaneously cast ALL DIVINATION SPELLS ON YOUR LIST the way a cleric can spontaneously cast cure sells.

It is worth it.

Also, the caster level loss from unseen seer can be offset by practical spellcaster, and you want to take that anyway to offset the caster levels lost to rogue levels. With practical spellcaster you just get +2Cl to all divination spells.

Also, conjuration is the best specialization. Look up the abrupt jaunt ACF to trade your familiar for the ability to teleport a short distance even on other peoples turns. It is great for avoiding attacks.

[Vistra]

You give up the bonus feats you get a wizard 5, 10, 15 and 20, but in return can spontaneously cast ALL DIVINATION SPELLS ON YOUR LIST the way a cleric can spontaneously cast cure sells.

It is worth it.

Ok i'm obviously a noob, I still am not sure what impact this would have on this build?

How would this build be taking advantage of this?

[ericgrau]

Probably nothing specifically. He brought up a couple of old power build tricks. Advantage power, disadvantage same as every other online power wizard build.

[Fouredged Sword]

Divinations tend to be situational. Need to detect undead? Did you know that at the start of the day? No? Too bad.

The problem is having the right one at the right time. Spontaneous divination fixes this completely. For the cost of exactly one wizard bonus feat (the one you would gain at 5th level), you gain the ability to cast divination spells spontaneously, all of them.

It is low cost, and divination are very useful, IF you have the right one at the right time.

[Aracor]

Divinations tend to be situational. Need to detect undead? Did you know that at the start of the day? No? Too bad.

The problem is having the right one at the right time. Spontaneous divination fixes this completely. For the cost of exactly one wizard bonus feat (the one you would gain at 5th level), you gain the ability to cast divination spells spontaneously, all of them.

It is low cost, and divination are very useful, IF you have the right one at the right time.
It's worth noting that the errata makes it clear you have to KNOW the divination. Contrary to some suggestions, it does NOT give you the ability to cast any divination from any obscure book regardless of which class list it's on, you need to have it in your spellbook.

[Vistra]

Alright, i've got my build in mind thanks to you guys (Spellthief 1 / Sorcerer 4 / Unseen Seer x / Spellwarp Sniper x)

I'm having a hell of a time trying to pick out the right feats with so many options. My first idea was to trade my familiar for an ACF (maybe spellshield), and then take the Obtain Familiar feat along with Improved Familiar. I really like the idea of sneaking around on my Worg. But this takes up a lot of feats. Bad idea? I'll also need Point Blank Shot, and Master Spellthief.


Aside from that i'm having trouble deciding what (if any) Metamagic feats I shoudl select. Empowerd? Splitting? Twin? Or even the Occular Spell feat looks great.


Others worth mentionening are Arcane Thesis (scorching ray?), Versatile Spellcaster, Craven, Practiced Spellcaster......the list goes on.

Please help me select the best for a sneak attacking ray caster.

[ericgrau]

Well precise shot is almost required in a party on any level before 13ish. Other than that ya there are a lot of good competing metamagic choices. You probably don't need more than 1-3 until high level because of spell level limits.

[Fouredged Sword]

Energy subsitution is a good metamagic. It takes the number of ray spells you need to take and lowers it to one per level. You can simply change the energy type to whatever the enemy isn't immune to. You simply take the best ray spell at each level and go with that.

I like to trade the sorcerer familiar for the ACF that lets you apply metamagic a number of times per day without increasing the casting time. Also, arcane preparation and quicken can be very useful.

Extend and persist are nice spells. Persisted hunter's eye lasts all day, as well as persisted listening lorecall. Persisted cloud of knives will give you a free attack to sneak attack with each round.

Fell drain and fell weaken are great debuff metamagics that can be applied to any ray.

[Vistra]

Energy subsitution is a good metamagic. It takes the number of ray spells you need to take and lowers it to one per level. You can simply change the energy type to whatever the enemy isn't immune to. You simply take the best ray spell at each level and go with that.

I like to trade the sorcerer familiar for the ACF that lets you apply metamagic a number of times per day without increasing the casting time. Also, arcane preparation and quicken can be very useful.

Extend and persist are nice spells. Persisted hunter's eye lasts all day, as well as persisted listening lorecall. Persisted cloud of knives will give you a free attack to sneak attack with each round.

Fell drain and fell weaken are great debuff metamagics that can be applied to any ray.

since I plan on being mounted most of the time, the full round action to cast metamagic won't really hurt me all that bad. (I don't see any reason this build couldn't work while mounted on my Worg familiar most of the time?)

I do like the idea of presistant Hunter's Eye and Cloud of Knives. I'll look into them.

What about Quicken? It allows me to cast two rays on my turn and both grant sneak attack?

[Fouredged Sword]

Quicken allows you to cast a spell as a swift action. This is a sperate action from any other spell cast, so it triggers a second sneak attack.

Sorcerer's cannot quicken spells be default, and must take the arcane preparation feat to get around the problem with metamagic making spells a full round action.

[nedz]

Quicken allows you to cast a spell as a swift action. This is a sperate action from any other spell cast, so it triggers a second sneak attack.

Sorcerer's cannot quicken spells be default, and must take the arcane preparation feat to get around the problem with metamagic making spells a full round action.

Actually there are a number of ways of doing this.

Metamagic Specialist ACF PHB 2: lose familiar. Zpply metamagic rapidly 3 + Int bonus times per day.
Rapid Metamagic feat CMage
Arcane Fusion line of spells: Cast two spells in one.
Arcane Preparation Feat CMage
Arcane Spellsurge spell Dragon Magic

[Vistra]

Hey I just noticed the feat Occular Spell. Wouldn't this essentially allow me to get an extra action / sneak attack? Similar to Quicken Spell?

I'm thinking this would be good feat to take at 1st level. being able to cast a max of 3 rays, in a single round would be awesome!

Would each of these get SA?

-beginning of day store two scorching rays

-1st round cast scorching ray normally, and unleash my two stored spells

Is this correct?

Edit: Just read, that its a full round action to unleash them, so it would only be two rays in one round. Still this is similar (better?) then quicken spell because it doesn't take up a higher spell slot.

[Fouredged Sword]

You can get two sneak attacks this way. Note that it is a full round action to discharge both eye rays, and it takes two castings to charge both eyes. Still, it is a cheep quicken that can be used as a sorcerer, you just have to take several rounds to prep it earlier in the day.

[Vistra]

You can get two sneak attacks this way. Note that it is a full round action to discharge both eye rays, and it takes two castings to charge both eyes. Still, it is a cheep quicken that can be used as a sorcerer, you just have to take several rounds to prep it earlier in the day.

Alright, what's your opinion on Ocular Spell VS Split Ray? To me Ocular Spell seems more powerful / useful?

[Daebu]

Alright, what's your opinion on Ocular Spell VS Split Ray? To me Ocular Spell seems more powerful / useful?

Too late to grab some Dragonblood? Spellwarped Wings of Flurry is NASTY. Every time you hit them with a touch attack Ray, they're Dazed (NO SAVE). *Bloodlines is particularly nasty way to get Dragonblood since it will raise your caster level by 3. Even better, it will raise your CL by SIX if you're using the Master Spellthief feat.

Make sure to grab Hunter's Eye with one of your Unseen Seer spells. It's from the Ranger spell list, and will add numerous SA dice to your attacks. At level 15, Persist it.

*Bloodlines are from UA, and do not add to your ECL. They do cost xp, however due to the way xp works you will recover and catch back up over time.

[Vistra]

I have another question about changing the size of my familiar.

I thought I remembered reading somewere that there was an item called Dire Saddle (something like that) that would allow my small familiar to grow to medium so I could ride it.

Any idea if this item exists? Or any other way to reliably resize my small familiar to act as a mount when needed?

[ericgrau]

On the matter of multiple sneak attacks per round, I've seen differing information posted referring to Complete Mage, Rules Compendium and explanation articles from a 3.5 designer (https://www.google.com/#q=site:www.wizards.com+sneak+attack+ray&safe=off). I'm inclined to go with 1 sneak attack per volley explanation, meaning both multi-ray spells and multi-ray feats only give one sneak attack in a round. But that's open to debate (except volley spells clearly don't work in all 3). Look at the 3 sources and talk to your DM too. Not that such things aren't strong for damage even without extra sneak attack.