The Culture PLUS Warhammer 40K-what happens?

[Leliel]

So, the old Culture vs. 40K debate got me thinking-what if it wasn't that the two universes were fighting, but rather, they were never separate?

As in, the Imperium has the Culture's level of technology...and the Chaos Gods are actually Sublimed Minds (their Greater Demons are the true citizens, Princes were adopted into the collective, and normal daemons are drones), the Eldar are still reeling from their attempted Sublimation that broke the race in to, Orks are capable of rapid advancement to the other factions' levels if need be, Necrons are...largely the same, since they're at the Culture's level of tech already and are mainly gearing up for their full power around the time the setting takes place, and the Tau managed to steal a Mind somehow and are trying to reverse-engineer it with promising results.

So, what happens?

EDIT: From later in the thread, to explain my setting core:

Basically, most of the ideology of the Imperium is the same, except in their attitudes towards mutants (there's a difference between "trans human" and "vile product of Chaos" and only because the latter have corruptive thought engrams that make them loyal to the Ruinous Powers), and science (anything is cool, except Sublimation and attempting to use Chaos for similar reasons). Chaos is less likely to exploit any loophole to infest a world since it's less.corruptive (again, Sublimed Minds, not Basic Fact Of Sapient Existence), but far more restrained and clever (plan, make sure we can win this, then start yelling about new additions to the Skull Throne) and far less easy to eradicate once they're entrenched (since they're lucid enough to build their power base in conquests rather than go on to the next one immediately).

Eldar are pretty much the same, ideology wise (normal and Dark), and the Greenskins start primitive, but their genetic memories allow a particular tribe to undergo extremely rapid development if unchecked, until the Warboss can convert himself to a Mind (as much of a contradiction in terms that can sometimes be). Thankfully, it's unstable, making "bomb back to Stone Age" a basic goal when it comes to them. Necrons are also the same ideologically, though whether they're old or new is up to the poster.

The Tau and their clients aren't quite there yet, but somewhere along the way they got their hands on a dead Mind, and now have reverse-engineered the tech to at least stand up to them, and are making rapid progress to building one of their own.

[Renegade Paladin]

Lots of death and destruction assuming all their outlooks remain the same. If the Imperium of Man as we know it has the Culture's level of technology, they launch a crusade and start destroying everything not Imperial.

Of course, if we consider the implications of the Imperium having Culture-level technology, they don't have to have their status quo outlook anymore, since they can resurrect the God-Emperor.

Edit:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=265821

The OP can correct me if I'm wrong, of course, but I'm pretty sure that's the old Culture vs. 40k debate he was talking about, so linking to it doesn't tell him anything since he was asking a different question. :smalltongue:

[Closet_Skeleton]

'Imperium but with better tech' doesn't work as a premise because humanity in the 40K setting had better tech and lost it and fell into superstition and oppression. If the Imperium had better tech, the Adeptus Mechanicus would hide it and the oppressed masses would never see it even if it got released.

Orks have all the tech they need since fighting is all they want to do.



Of course, if we consider the implications of the Imperium having Culture-level technology, they don't have to have their status quo outlook anymore, since they can resurrect the God-Emperor.

The Inquisitor book made it pretty clear that if the Imperium had that tech it would either cause a civil war that would destroy the Imperium or would be swept under the rug and destroyed before anyone noticed.

If the Imperium's leadership had unanimously decided that the Emperor needed to be Resurrected they would have done so within a thousand years of his death, no technology boost needed. But the reason d'etre of the Imperium is not creating a new golden age, its maintaining the status quo regardless of the truth that its status quo is not indefinitely maintainable.

Even if you remove the faction that want the Emperor to stay out of the picture, the Thorians who want the Emperor reincarnated in a new body would try and stop anyone resurrecting the Emperor's old body and even if they get wiped out some jealous faction might decide that if the Emperor is going to be resurrected it should be them pressing the button and that they're willing to go to civil war to ensure that.

That's assuming the existence of the tech ever gets through endless bureaucracy and people find out about it.

[Tavar]

Wait, what? The Imperium has always had the ability to resurrect the Emperor?

Also, much of humanities history can be explained by their use if the warp fir travel. If they don't gave that...

[Closet_Skeleton]

Wait, what? The Imperium has always had the ability to resurrect the Emperor?

They've always had things they could have tried, but factional infighting/distrust and the horrible consequences of failure makes them impractical. The faction of the Inquisition closest to resurrecting the Emperor is the Thorians and they get set back centuries by their enemies in the Inquisition all the time.

Defunct fluff literally had a group of people who could resurrect the Emperor any time they wanted if they all somehow got to Terra and willingly sacrificed themselves (of course they weren't willing, couldn't even get to Terra and didn't even know they had that ability).

But one of the other faction's theories is that the Emperor has a natural reincarnation or resurrection power anyway and its his lifesupport system that is keeping him from using it because he has to be fully dead to use it. So if that's theory is correct then yes, they could have done it at any time all along. But you have to kill the Emperor to test that and if you're wrong all of existence might be screwed.



Also, much of humanities history can be explained by their use if the warp fir travel. If they don't gave that...

Warp travel is fine. The Warp isn't inherently a place filled with daemons and perils, those are mostly a result of humanity's psychic unconscious messing with the warp. Its humanity's incomplete psychic evolution that leads to daemonic possession and ruins everything. Stop travelling in the warp and there wouldn't be any ability to deal with psykers on a galaxy wide level and chaos would be even more powerful.

[Leliel]

Yeah, I didn't make this thread to be lectured about canon. I know canon, I'm a fan. This is a thought experiment, I don't need to care for the sake of this discussion, that's the point of the experiment.

So please, just ignore it and ask yourself what would happen if the scenario outlined was the truth, canon be damned.

[deuterio12]

I'm glad forced to agree with "Imperium=technological supression". It's the only way to explain why there's so many 40k worlds in feudal stasis for millenia. This is, we could invent machine guns and planes and rocket ships by ourselves, any lost colony world would eventually rediscover high tech as long as left to follow its own devices.

That a chaos marine can be thrown from the Horus Heresy 10 000 years into the future and his wargear is still considered top tier stuff is more than proof enough that the High Lords of Terra and the Inquisition have been working around the clock to curb any kind of scientific progress.



Orks have all the tech they need since fighting is all they want to do.

Nonsense! You can never haz enuff dakka!

For example, the orks started building their stompas and gargantz only after meeting with imperial titans. You can always make a bigger choppa/shoota, it's all a matter of making the orks envious of something.

[Closet_Skeleton]

So please, just ignore it and ask yourself what would happen if the scenario outlined was the truth, canon be damned.

The scenario outlined is far to vague to say really. The first sentence just doesn't work, the Imperium with any other level of tech either isn't the Imperium or the tech difference is imperceptible to 99.99% of its inhabitants. The infrastructure and mentality would also have to change for a tech change to be relevant since the Imperium is already so under-performing.

You could do 'how would the other 40k races behave if the Imperium was replaced by The Culture' but a straight up hybrid of the Imperium and the Culture would be 'the tiny number of elites have more ways to have fun with their unequal privileges' and that would be the only difference.

[Leliel]

The scenario outlined is far to vague to say really. The first sentence just doesn't work, the Imperium with any other level of tech either isn't the Imperium or the tech difference is imperceptible to 99.99% of its inhabitants. The infrastructure and mentality would also have to change for a tech change to be relevant since the Imperium is already so under-performing.

You could do 'how would the other 40k races behave if the Imperium was replaced by The Culture' but a straight up hybrid of the Imperium and the Culture would be 'the tiny number of elites have more ways to have fun with their unequal privileges' and that would be the only difference.

Huh. Thought I was clearer than that.

I'm saying that the Imperium has that level of technology, as does Chaos, the Necrons, and the Eldar, with the Tau getting there and the Orks capable of it if a particular Waaggh puts their minds to it. With some concessions made to the Cultureverse (the Chaos Gods are not truly psychic conglermerations of emotions, but Sublimed Minds who exist entirely in the Warp) so that the setting makes internal sense (no daemonic possession of anything resembling an AI without the daemon actually hacking said AI to insert itself, for instance).

[Leliel]

And now I realize I'm still not being clear. Agh.

Basically, most of the ideology of the Imperium is the same, except in their attitudes towards mutants (there's a difference between "trans human" and "vile product of Chaos" and only because the latter have corruptive thought engrams that make them loyal to the Ruinous Powers), and science (anything is cool, except Sublimation and attempting to use Chaos for similar reasons). Chaos is less likely to exploit any loophole to infest a world since it's less.corruptive (again, Sublimed Minds, not Basic Fact Of Sapient Existence), but far more restrained and clever (plan, make sure we can win this, then start yelling about new additions to the Skull Throne) and far less easy to eradicate once they're entrenched (since they're lucid enough to build their power base in conquests rather than go on to the next one immediately).

Eldar are pretty much the same, ideology wise (normal and Dark), and the Greenskins start primitive, but their genetic memories allow a particular tribe to undergo extremely rapid development if unchecked, until the Warboss can convert himself to a Mind (as much of a contradiction in terms that can sometimes be). Thankfully, it's unstable, making "bomb back to Stone Age" a basic goal when it comes to them.

The Tau and their clients aren't quite there yet, but somewhere along the way they got their hands on a dead Mind, and now have reverse-engineered the tech to at least stand up to them, and are making rapid progress to building one of their own.

[Tavar]

::snip::

Ah, that was my point: the main issue is that they don't know what will happen if the Emp is killed/if any resurrection or healing method will work. I thought you were saying that they know of a method that will work, could implement it without issue, and don't because they do not wish to.


Warp travel is fine. The Warp isn't inherently a place filled with daemons and perils, those are mostly a result of humanity's psychic unconscious messing with the warp. Its humanity's incomplete psychic evolution that leads to daemonic possession and ruins everything. Stop travelling in the warp and there wouldn't be any ability to deal with psykers on a galaxy wide level and chaos would be even more powerful.
The reason the first Age of Man fell was because the war was disrupted, separating humanity. Without warp, that never happens.


Huh. Thought I was clearer than that.

I'm saying that the Imperium has that level of technology, as does Chaos, the Necrons, and the Eldar, with the Tau getting there and the Orks capable of it if a particular Waaggh puts their minds to it. With some concessions made to the Cultureverse (the Chaos Gods are not truly psychic conglermerations of emotions, but Sublimed Minds who exist entirely in the Warp) so that the setting makes internal sense (no daemonic possession of anything resembling an AI without the daemon actually hacking said AI to insert itself, for instance).

Here's the issue: you're basically saying what would the USA look like if cat's had evolved into the dominant life form.

[Leliel]

You're probably right.

And that was actually part of the idea: Let's change a basic foundation of the setting, see what happens.

I didn't think the first post through, is what I'm saying.

[Tavar]

You're other posts aren't stellar: if a change that fundamental happened, then the factions shouldn't be in evidence in anything relating their canon form.

[Leliel]

You're other posts aren't stellar: if a change that fundamental happened, then the factions shouldn't be in evidence in anything relating their canon form.

...Good point.

I'll request a lock, and think of a better way to engage this.