[3.5] Teleport in Combat

[A.A.King]

So, a couple of days ago I asked fir build tips about a Rogue / Spellcaster who would teleport behind you. Still trying to think about it made me realise I don't really know anything about the rules for teleportation in combat

1) Does it Provoke Attacks of opportunity if all of a sudden you're somewhere else
2) Does it help with setting up precision damage? I mean how more sudden can a "Sudden Strike" be then when all of a sudden someone appears from behind you?

And a more general question is, how good is it as a strategy. Have people experience with playing someone whose defining strategy is (in-combat) teleportation. Shadowpounce is nice but difficult to get and without it you need swift/immidiate action teleportation which I haven't found easy to get either. And in the end, it seems to come online pretty late.

So, is in-combat teleportation an useful/decent strategy to focus on are you waisting too many resources on something with only cripples you?

[Zero grim]

well 3.5 doesn't have facing so that's something to consider, if your target can see you before and after you teleport then there's not much reason for them to be flat-footed, their not going to lower their guard in less time it takes them to blink.

teleporting into or out of a hiding spot would work nicely, so teleporting under the table the target is next to then stabbing them in the knees would work for a sudden strike.

teleporting into someone's threatened area as far as I know doesn't trigger AoO teleporting out might depending if it was a spell or if it was a spell like ability.

Id save the teleport for two scenarios, assassination and fleeing, unless you have a lot of teleporting or at will teleporting its probably not worth using it just for sudden strike/sneak attack, your better of with invisibility or cover.

P.S if your using teleporting to fight why not just get a bomb teleport with it to your target then teleport away before it has a chance to go off?

[A.A.King]

Thanks man, pretty much what I thought. Figured there wouldn't be any rulling for the sudden strike/sneak attack thing although if you are behind someone at blinking speed then I don't think he could react fast enough to protect his weak spots. But with no facing in the game I should have known there is no way for that to be in the rules, oh well

[Urpriest]

Thanks man, pretty much what I thought. Figured there wouldn't be any rulling for the sudden strike/sneak attack thing although if you are behind someone at blinking speed then I don't think he could react fast enough to protect his weak spots. But with no facing in the game I should have known there is no way for that to be in the rules, oh well

You can't attack a "blinking speed", that's the thing. You land, and then you take a normal action to attack, at the same speed anyone else would. If you could attack fast enough for nobody to notice, you could do it without teleporting.

[Scow2]

Although the rules don't cover it, it doesn't mean it doesn't/isn't allowed to happen. "Rules" are guidelines meant to help put world events into mechanical effect.

Are you the DM, or the player? If you're the DM, go ahead with it. If you're a player, suggest working out a change/patch to the rules to allow the concept to function, and know that enemies can do the same against you.

The complete removal of all references of tables/DMs being able to bend/change the rules to fit different situations and empower players (As opposed to full genre-changing shifts or nerfs to game-breaking things) and rabid adherence to Mechanics over Events and Crunch over Fluff are the greatest sins D&D 3rd Edition's revision has blighted Tabletop Gaming with.

[A.A.King]

Although the rules don't cover it, it doesn't mean it doesn't/isn't allowed to happen. "Rules" are guidelines meant to help put world events into mechanical effect.

Are you the DM, or the player? If you're the DM, go ahead with it. If you're a player, suggest working out a change/patch to the rules to allow the concept to function, and know that enemies can do the same against you.

The complete removal of all references of tables/DMs being able to bend/change the rules to fit different situations and empower players (As opposed to full genre-changing shifts or nerfs to game-breaking things) and rabid adherence to Mechanics over Events and Crunch over Fluff are the greatest sins D&D 3rd Edition's revision has blighted Tabletop Gaming with.

So true but for now this is just an idea I want to check out. The "teleporting behind someone to make them flatfooted" is just one of the things needed to sort out. Finding a decent way to provide the teleport is another. I can't really build a character diving strategy around something that I can do only 5 times a day, especially if I'd want to do it 2 in a row (which frankly, I want to do). So yeah, I'll definetly ask my DM to bend/change the rules a little but for now I'd just like to know what other people think about this strategy. If other people have played such a character.

[Absol197]

So true but for now this is just an idea I want to check out. The "teleporting behind someone to make them flatfooted" is just one of the things needed to sort out. Finding a decent way to provide the teleport is another. I can't really build a character diving strategy around something that I can do only 5 times a day, especially if I'd want to do it 2 in a row (which frankly, I want to do). So yeah, I'll definetly ask my DM to bend/change the rules a little but for now I'd just like to know what other people think about this strategy. If other people have played such a character.

Have your spellcaster side be wizard, and use the PHBII alternate class feature Abrupt Jaunt. 10-ft. teleport as an immediate action 3 + Int modifier times per day. See if your DM would be willing to let you sacrifice spell slots for additional uses. If your DM is okay with it, see if you can be a sorcerer instead (and have the ability keyed off Cha), so you have more spell slots to burn on the ability.

Honestly, the idea seems awesome: a fighter wielding some small, quick blade, flashing to different sides of the opponent to confuse and disorient them every couple of attacks. As a DM, I would take pains to make sure it worked. Especially because if you're multiclassing to get the ability, your sneak attack won't be as good as a full rogue. I would make it only effective on the first attack after the teleport, though.

In fact, if I were DMing it, I would say sacrificing spell slots for the ability gives you the ability to make 1 teleport per level of the spell slot, which you can space between attacks (all must be spent on the same turn, however). This means by focusing on your casting, you can teleport more and get more sneak attacks, but you also lower your BAB and sneak attack damage, which is a balancing factor.

Just my 2 cp.


~Phoenix~

EDIT: In fact, I'm going to steal this and use it for my current campaign! What a bad-ass and memorable villain! Even if he probably will be basically an advanced mook!

[A.A.King]

Well glad you like the idea. Please let me know how it goes, sounds like it could annoy the hell out of your players the first time though xD

"Okay, my guy won initive so he gets to go first. He teleports here, stabs you, then teleports there, stabs you again, next he teleports to the other side of the room and stabs the caster, next he teleports away. Go search for him"

[XmonkTad]

Back during the "build a monk that could defeat all the elder evils" challenge, I tried building a blink strike monk. I never posted it because I didn't like it, but the core of the idea was this:
Sun School [tactical] CWar (Lets you attack after teleport)
Shape Soulmeld Blink Shirt MoI (Lets you teleport all day)

Because this was originally a monk build, I used the sidewinder monk varient from Dragon Mag which gives sneak attack and flurry of blows (which you need to qualify for Sun School). This can let you pull off blink strikes all day from level 1.

[sketchtb]

If you're going caster, summon something prior to teleporting and bam, you're flanking...

[A.A.King]

Back during the "build a monk that could defeat all the elder evils" challenge, I tried building a blink strike monk. I never posted it because I didn't like it, but the core of the idea was this:
Sun School [tactical] CWar (Lets you attack after teleport)
Shape Soulmeld Blink Shirt MoI (Lets you teleport all day)

Because this was originally a monk build, I used the sidewinder monk varient from Dragon Mag which gives sneak attack and flurry of blows (which you need to qualify for Sun School). This can let you pull off blink strikes all day from level 1.

Sounds nice but doesn't Blink Shirt have the same restrictions as Dimmension Door, the fact that you can't act afterwards? I know that Sun School gets rid of that problem atleast long enough to attack once but how about after that? Could you still teleport away?



If you're going caster, summon something prior to teleporting and bam, you're flanking...

True, but your team can also flank for you right? I mean, I'd rather attack on my own then summon something which outshines me in combat.

[Fax Celestis]

You also probably want to look at these feats:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/dimensional-agility
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/dimensional-assault
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/dimensional-dervish
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/dimensional-savant
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/dimensional-maneuvers

[Talionis]

Jade Phoenix Mage can quicken spells after attacking with a maneuver. Add to that a variety of teleportation maneuvers, desert wind has one that is a counter to an attack. Shadow hand has Shadow Blink and Shadow something that allows you to teleport as a swift and move action.

Add Sun School Feat from Complete Warrior that allows you to attack each time you teleport next to an enemy.

[Gray Mage]

D&D does have facing (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/combatFacing.htm#sneakAttacks) as a variant. Under it you can sneak attack by being behind a foe, but then apparently flanking won't work for SA anymore.

[DR27]

Really, this sounds like a swordsage specialized in shadow hand (using assassin's stance, maybe cloak of deception, shadow blink/shadow jaunt), with some Tiger Claw. If you don't think that's good enough, Dimensional Jaunt/Sun School(Flash of Sunset).

[XmonkTad]

Sounds nice but doesn't Blink Shirt have the same restrictions as Dimmension Door, the fact that you can't act afterwards? I know that Sun School gets rid of that problem atleast long enough to attack once but how about after that? Could you still teleport away?


I don't think you can teleport away, no. After the attack you can't take any more actions. In my silly monk build, I solved this problem with Tattooed Monk (lion) from CWar using smite attacks with Overpowering Smite (CChamp) to "trip" them. That plus stunning fist and AoO abuse lets you make attacks when they try and stand up.

If you are going more wizard based (enlightened fist?) you could use scry and fry to one-shot your target with shivering touch outside of initiative being rolled?

[Scow2]

You also probably want to look at these feats:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/dimensional-agility
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/dimensional-assault
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/dimensional-dervish
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/dimensional-savant
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/dimensional-maneuversWhee! Almost half a dozen feats just to be able to do one thing! And you have to be level 17 to get even half of them!

Isn't 3.-4/Nopefinder wonderful?