[PF] Unarmed Barbarian!!!

[Mr.MeowMeowmers]

Hey lads!

So one of my mates wants to build the following:

A dwarfen barbarian....
who fights with his fists!!!

The problem we both encounter:
We don't seem to find a way for this dwarf to do any appropriate damage, or be useful in anyway.
But still he can't let go of this angry little badass so now he asked me, to ask you guys for help!!

Cheers!

PS:
Corerulebook
Advanced Race Guide
Advanced Players Guide

Campaign will be urban.

[Kymme]

Barbarian (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian) w/ natural attack rage powers (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian/rage-powers) ?/Martial Artist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo---monk-archetypes/martial-artist) Monk (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk) 5

That's my go to for things like that.

[Zonugal]

What level is he starting at?

[Ninjaxenomorph]

Sadly, a lot of the things you will want (like using a grappled opponent as a weapon) is from Ultimate Combat.

[Beowulf DW]

Cestus. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons/weapon-descriptions/cestus)

Additionally, there's the Brutal Pugilist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian/archetypes/paizo---barbarian-archetypes/brutal-pugilist) which should help out with grappling. Using the Body Bludgeon Rage Power could yield interesting results with that archetype.

[Prax4788]

to bad complete champion wasn't on your list. fist of the forest is basically what your looking for

[Beowulf DW]

The limitation in books really doesn't make sense when everything's online.

[grarrrg]

The limitation in books really doesn't make sense when everything's online.

Except for, you know, 3.5 stuff...

to bad complete champion wasn't on your list. fist of the forest is basically what your looking for

[Mjollnir075]

Yeah, the whole "No Ultimate Combat" puts a serious hamper in our efforts here. However, if you can somehow get access to PFSRD, you'll be golden.

I have statted up an npc follower for my players in our PF game that focused on unarmed strikes. We are playing gestalt rules, but you could use this as a starting point.

12 Invulnerable Rager Barbarian// 12 Martial Artist Monk.
Feats include Boar Style feats (for piercing unarmed strikes and move action intimidation), Hamatula Strike/Hamatula Grasp (fer grapplin'), Intimidating Prowess.. ect.

Pretty much, stick your fingers in someones stomach, grab em by the ribs, then scream at them till they crap themselves while you continue to pound on them.

[Mr.MeowMeowmers]

Sadly, no ultimate combat for anyone :/

And so far we're starting at level 1.

So needed is maybe something like a guide for further progression!

Our ideas so far :

Dwarf level 1 Barbarian ( Brutal Pugilist)
First feat: Improved unarmed strikes.

Then on level 2 a dip into unarmed fighter.

then back to barbarian and get ragepower : brawler and these things.

Legit?

Cheers lads!

[Kymme]

Given that you'd be starting at level 1, working through 5 levels of Martial Artist Monk might not be worth it. You would lose your d12 hid die for five levels, as well as taking a hit to your rage-ness. What you get in return, however, is the ability to cancel enemy damage reduction (vital for an unarmed character) as well as immunity to fatigue.

[Unbalanced]

I've also wanted to work out an effective unarmed rager character for ages, and it just seems like D&D 3.5 and PF systems both are just not set up for it very well.
Without going for monk, your unarmed damage progress, or rather lack thereof, is just such a massive problem. It sucks.

[Mr.MeowMeowmers]

So it looks like theres no real Chance to make our little dwarven fella strong enough without using weapons hm?

We dont really like the thought of a dwarven monk, kinda wanted some little bearded angry lad who charges people and beats the living hell out of them, like no matter what he fights, its kinda like a bar brawl haha!

So would it be better to maybe build a grappler?
A dwarf barbarian grappler? Is that possible and viable?

Or should we just give him an axe and be a stereotype?
Since it looks like then he would only need powerattack, cleave and loads of strength!

Cheers lads!

[Ninjaxenomorph]

The problem is your best options are in Ultimate Combat.

[Mr.MeowMeowmers]

CURSE MY OWN STUPIDITY AND SHORT ATTENTION SPAN!!

GM just told me: Ultimate Combat is good to go!

So feel free to hit me as hard as possible and help with the creation of this dwarven barbarian fistfighter!!


Cheers lads!!

And sorry for that mistake :/

[prototype00]

Besides Barbarian is he willing to mix in other stuff, like say, Druid?

Just that in Pathfinder, the Cave Druid allows you to turn into an ooze.

There is a medium ooze that does 7d8 damage (the carnivorous crystal). With Barbarian and Druid, you can vital strike/furious focus for 112 points of guaranteed damage at around lvl 10 (you will probably need something that makes you immune to fatigue.)

Just a thought.

prototype00

[Mr.MeowMeowmers]

Not too fond of mixing too many things.
That druid thing sounds interesting tho, but still he'd love to keep it simple.
Fist A --> Face B.
If possible, it should hurt!

Also he would play a fighter with the unarmed fighter archetype.
Might this one be better at punching people, than a barbarian?

Or what about a barb/fighter who simpyl focusses on grappling?
I mean, like he's ALL about grappling. Whenever, whomever.

Stuff like that possible?

Cheers lads!

[Drelua]

The only thing Unarmed Fighter is really good for is a one level dip to get a free style feat. For an actual unarmed Fighter, go with the Brawler archetype, they're much more effective and it sounds like it fits the character's flavor a lot better. They basically just get right in your face and beat the hell out of you. I did the math a while ago, and they're damage works out to be about the same as a monks at most levels thanks to they're increased weapon training bonus, and that's before figuring in their probably higher strength score. Use a spiked gauntlet or a cestus if you want to be able to roll an actual die for your damage.

[Unbalanced]

Even allowing Ultimate Combat, I still don't see any real viable option for a raging, unarmed/cestus/spiked gauntlet wielding, dwarven, drunkard, who attacks any and all opponents head on, and from level 1 through to 20 is an effective and brutal combatant...

I'd love the idea to work, I really would, but it just doesn't really seem to :(

[Mergy]

I fail to see why everyone is so down about this. A barbarian will do great damage no matter what his weapon choice is, and going with unarmed strikes opens up some natural attack options that will all get powered up by an amulet of mighty fists.

So one punch might not be too interesting. What about punch/punch/bite/gore? What about kick/shoulder/claw/claw/bite? What if he pounces too? Another thing that Unarmed Strike opens up is Grappling, and barbarians are great at that, especially with Strength Surge.

I wouldn't multiclass: rage powers are too good for that. Brutal Pugilist is an option, but I would strongly caution you to make use of armour for the excellent brawling property from Ultimate Equipment.

1 Improved Unarmed Strike
2 Reckless Abandon
3 Power Attack
4 Animal Fury
5 Improved Grapple
6 Lesser Beast Totem
7 Greater Grapple
8 Beast Totem
9 Extra Rage Power: Strength Surge
10 Greater Beast Totem

There you go. Enjoy your ball of wolverine-like punching fury. Other Rage powers he might be interested in include Strength Surge, Brawler (although low priority) and Greater Brawler for yet another unarmed strike. Charge your enemies and full attack them. Look into the lockjaw spell (druids or rangers) to get a grab attack on your bite, prevent them from escaping with Strength Surge, and then pin and tie them up in a round!

Alternatively, punch and claw them to pieces. Up to you.

At low levels you'll still want to carry a weapon of course. As soon as you get to Improved Grapple however, there is now some serious advantage to keeping your hands empty. That coincides nicely with the time you're likely to get an amulet of mighty fists (furious of course!) or the brawling armour enhancement.

[Ohiohi]

**** it and homebrew a little... let's say, a 1d6/1d8 as unarmed damage, maybe at the place of all weapon proficiencies or shield proficiency... or a particular rage power that turns your fists in 1d6/1d8, +??? to overcome DR(maybe with a progression based on the level of the PC, like the monk's)...
not too unbalanced, 'cause the monk reach 2d10 of damage and a lot of properties to overcome DR

[Mergy]

**** it and homebrew a little... let's say, a 1d6/1d8 as unarmed damage, maybe at the place of all weapon proficiencies or shield proficiency... or a particular rage power that turns your fists in 1d6/1d8, +??? to overcome DR(maybe with a progression based on the level of the PC, like the monk's)...
not too unbalanced, 'cause the monk reach 2d10 of damage and a lot of properties to overcome DR

Enhancement bonuses pull this off. 16000 gp for a +1 furious amulet of mighty fists will also count as cold iron and silver. 64000 for a +3 furious amulet that will go through all DR period.

The dice damage increases are one of the worst ways to increase damage. 1d3 > 1d6 is a 1.5 damage increase per hit. Even 2d10 is only 11 damage per hit; while an extra 9 damage over regular unarmed strikes would be impressive, the barbarian is going to make up for that with Power Attack and higher strength anyway.

[Ohiohi]

Enhancement bonuses pull this off. 16000 gp for a +1 furious amulet of mighty fists will also count as cold iron and silver. 64000 for a +3 furious amulet that will go through all DR period.

The dice damage increases are one of the worst ways to increase damage. 1d3 > 1d6 is a 1.5 damage increase per hit. Even 2d10 is only 11 damage per hit; while an extra 9 damage over regular unarmed strikes would be impressive, the barbarian is going to make up for that with Power Attack and higher strength anyway.

so there's no real problem, right? :) with improved unarmed strike and some magic items you're ok with it, even if your character isn't a minmaxed killer. I'd love to see one of those little dwarves kicking some giant asses!

[Ninjaxenomorph]

Uh, no. You have to actually have a + whatever weapon to penetrate DR like that.

[Mergy]

I'm pretty sure that an amulet provides the necessary enhancement bonus to do the same. +1 furious while raging = +3; +3 furious while raging = +5.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

+2 Keen does not equal + 3 for bypassing types of DR.

[Unbalanced]

I've worked out the beginning of this build, which is definitely not optimized, but I think would be fun. I usually play spellcasters, so this is all a bit foreign to me, but I think I worked it all out correctly.
Both hands are equipped with a cestus but you'd normally carry a shield. Maybe, in rage, he has a tendency to drop the shield and go into "bash everything" mode. Up to the player.

Dwarf - Barbarian
STR 17
DEX 12
CON 17 (after all racial mods)
INT 10
WIS 10
CHA 8


CLASS SKILLS: Acrobatics, climb, craft, handle animal, intimidate,
knowledge (nature), perception, ride, survival, swim.


Level 1-
Attack: +5 (BAB +1, Str +3, Weapon focus, cestus +1) or +1/-4 (with shield bash) or +1/-3 (if shield is dropped)
Damage: 1D4+3 (with cestus) or 1D4+3/1D4+1 (with shield bash or shield dropped)
AC: 18 (breast plate +6, steel spiked shield, light +1, dex +1)
Saves: Fort +2(+3), Ref +0(+1), Will +0(+0)
Barbarian: Fast movement, rage
Rage: 7 rounds/day
Feat: Weapon focus, cestus

Level 2-
Attack: +6 (BAB +2, Str +3, Weapon focus, cestus +1) or +2/-3 (with shield bash) or +2/-2 (if shield is dropped)
Damage: 1D4+3 (with cestus) or 1D4+3/1D4+1 (with shield bash or shield dropped)
AC: 18 (breast plate +6, steel spiked shield, light +1, dex +1)
Saves: Fort +3(+3), Ref +0(+1), Will +0(+0)
Barbarian: Rage power (fiend totem, lesser), uncanny dodge
Rage: 9 rounds/day

Level 3-
Attack: +7 (BAB +3, Str +3, Weapon focus, cestus +1) or +3/-2 (with shield bash) or +3/-1 (if shield is dropped)
Damage: 1D4+3 (with cestus) or 1D4+3/1D4+1 (with shield bash or shield dropped)
AC: 18 (breast plate +6, steel spiked shield, light +1, dex +1)
Saves: Fort +3(+3), Ref +1(+1), Will +1(+0)
Barbarian: Trap sense +1
Rage: 11 rounds/day
Feat: Power attack

Level 4-
+1 STR
Attack: +9 (BAB +4, Str +4, Weapon focus, cestus +1) or +5/+0 (with shield bash) or +5/+1 (if shield is dropped)
Damage: 1D4+4 (with cestus) or 1D4+4/1D4+2 (with shield bash or shield dropped)
AC: 18 (breast plate +6, steel spiked shield, light +1, dex +1)
Saves: Fort +4(+3), Ref +1(+1), Will +1(+0)
Barbarian: Rage power (guarded life)
Rage: 13 rounds/day

[Mergy]

+2 Keen does not equal + 3 for bypassing types of DR.

That's great, but the furious enhancement increases the weapon's bonus by +2 while the wielder is raging. Therefore, a +1 furious amulet becomes a +3 amulet while raging; this bypasses cold iron and silver.

This does also mean the final amulet can be +3 furious keen! :)

[Ninjaxenomorph]

Ah, I guess it would, but ONLY when raging. What's the enchancement cost?

[Mergy]

4000 to start for the furious enhancement; remember that an amulet of mighty fists doesn't need a +1 to start putting other things onto it. Upgrading to +1 furious comes to 16,000; to compare, a +3 weapon is 18,000.

It comes out to more expensive than if you had acquired a +1 furious greatsword (8,350), but it's not a bad deal if you can stack up enough natural and unarmed attacks.

Since this chap will be a dwarf, he could alternatively look into a dwarven boulder helmet from the ARG.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

So, its worth a +2, but becomes +3 when raging? Also, it was errata'ed that AoMF costs the same as a magic weapon.

[Mergy]

Yup, +2 for the cost of a +1. When does a barbarian not rage anyway?

Pathfinder's amulet had errata bringing the cost down from 5000 to 4000. It scales at double the price of a magic weapon. I don't think it's been brought down lower than that.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

Huh, guess I was accidentally reading the creation costs, my bad.

[Unbalanced]

... And then what if he doesn't have the facility to get any of these items? :smallconfused:

[Mergy]

Then his GM is being a dink.

[Unbalanced]

Not necessarily... But that's a different debate for a different time.

I still think its doable, but not in a way to really excel and put everyone else to shame.

[Mergy]

A player comes up to you and says "I want to make a punching and kicking feral dwarf barbarian."

You can of course say that the type of character isn't appropriate for the world or campaign setting. What is not okay (in my opinion, of course), is to okay that concept and then not allow the player to achieve it through restricting items.

Furious might be out, depending on what books the GM wants. In which case the amulet of mighty fists is 4000; 16,000; 36,000; 64,000; 100,000. If the GM says no amulet of mighty fists, then build a different character.