A New Discussion on Godless Clerics

[arythmic]

There is another thread that touched on the topic of playing a godless cleric:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=233200

Looks like the OP got his own issue answered, but all I really got out of it was reinforcement that for various reasons, a godless cleric is indeed NOT a silly proposition.

For my own purposes, what I want to talk about here is more mechanical... Technically speaking, what actually happens if your cleric has no god? (note this means, in the words of the books, "does not worship a particular deity," and could imply worship to all or multiple deities in general - I don't see any reason why my cleric couldn't be polytheistic but that's possibly a more advanced level of the discussion...)

A friend and I were discussing the creation of a godless cleric because a new campaign is coming up in a week's time. The issue arises because there don't seem to be any printed/published works that really touch on the concept. The PHB rather immediately and readily acknowledges that a cleric doesn't need to have a god. Various sources in my research lightly warn that this may have consequences, and then that's the end of it. I've never found an exploration of what those consequences are.

In the other thread, someone said:

"Deityless Clerics gain more flexibility. They lose out on some stuff specific to the characteristics of an individual god."

And to that I say: Ya? Like WHAT? And more importantly, HOW does one determine this?

What I see is that the printed materials state that as a cleric, you don't have to worship a particular god. I get most of the why's and character building concepts so i'll revist that stuff after I understand the mechanics, and now i'm looking at "ok, so now what?" The books pretty much subtly let you do all the math yourself. It took a lot of re-reading and semantic analysis to conclude that one paragraph implies "you don't get to do this if you don't have a god" - but there's a HUGE margin for error, and those calculations could simply be wrong.

I stumbled upon this issue because I felt like my cleric wanted to be in the domains of "Healing" and "Protection" whilst maintaining a Chaotic Neutral alignment - However, could find no god to suit his purposes - only one god has the "Healing" domain, and no gods have both. With no god, a cleric easily can be CN and have both "Healing" and "Protection" domains. There was a homebrew deity on d&d wiki with both domains, but was Neutral Good, so no go - AND I'm only interested in commercially published materials, not homebrew. Whether they are 3, 3.5, or other derivative OGL based works is fine.

So far I've come up with the following:

Consequences of not having a god if you're a NEUTRAL cleric:
1. You cannot do spontaneous spell conversion.
2. You cannot turn or rebuke undead.
3. ?

Does everyone agree with the above 2? are there more? do I have to analyse and do the math on every single spell and mechanic to determine what other consequences there may be? Has anyone ever come up with a guide to running a cleric without a god? or is that the one thing that although the PHB tells you straight off you can do it, no one but me and the OP in the other thread has ever wanted to?

Please be aware that while my friend Google directed me here, I'm off Googling elsewhere while I patiently await everyone's interesting ideas - but if anyone could short-circuit my efforts and direct me straight to any answers it would be much appreciated! :)

[Emperor Tippy]

So far I've come up with the following:

Consequences of not having a god if you're a cleric:
1. You cannot do spontaneous spell conversion.
Um, where are you getting that from? Any good cleric (regardless of deity or the lack thereof) can spontaneously covert to cure spells. Any evil cleric can spontaneously convert to harm spells. A neutral cleric without a deity or with a neutral deity gets to choose whether he can convert to cure or harm spells (it is a permanent choice).
This is right there in the cleric class right up in the PHB or SRD.

2. You cannot turn or rebuke undead.
See point 1. This is totally wrong under the rules.

[Urpriest]

There is a list of spells that don't work if you don't have a deity, the War domain's weapon proficiency doesn't work, and you lose access to deity-specific stuff like Initiate feats and several PrCs. Still often worth it, but there are some good optimization tricks in that stuff.

[Togath]

There is a list of spells that don't work if you don't have a deity, the War domain's weapon proficiency doesn't work, and you lose access to deity-specific stuff like Initiate feats and several PrCs. Still often worth it, but there are some good optimization tricks in that stuff.

I'm pretty sure the war domain works just fine, letting you choose any weapon rather than a specific one.

[arythmic]

Um, where are you getting that from?

Whoops. I guess I need to expound upon that. I may have to go edit my post because I see where I was in error...

I'm referencing only the 3.5 SRD here: (although the same is true in both 3.0 and 3.5)

1. Any good cleric can turn or destroy undead creatures, regardless if they have a god or not.
2. Any evil cleric can instead rebuke or command such creatures, regardless if they have a god or not.
3. A neutral cleric "who worships a good deity" can turn or destroy undead.
4. A neutral cleric "who worships an evil deity" can rebuke or command such creatures.
5. A neutral cleric of a neutral deity must choose.

A neutral cleric with NO deity at all is not explicitly called out here as having either ability. Therefore, as this is the only remaining possibility, and it is not explicitly defined, we have interpreted this to imply they do not have the ability.

Spontaneous Casting is the same way.

I will have to edit my post to correct my mistake. Since my desire was to create a neutral cleric, my 2 conclusions about what happens if you're a godless cleric were born out of that - i will state that they only apply to neutral clerics, not all clerics.

[Spuddles]

Not having a deity means not being saddled with your deity's baggage- you don't have to love cats or hold a rivalry with followers for no reason other than your deity's whimsy.


There is a list of spells that don't work if you don't have a deity, the War domain's weapon proficiency doesn't work, and you lose access to deity-specific stuff like Initiate feats and several PrCs. Still often worth it, but there are some good optimization tricks in that stuff.


I'm pretty sure the war domain works just fine, letting you choose any weapon rather than a specific one.

In the 3.0 cleric splatbook, clerics without deities had spiritual weapons and weapons of the deity take the form of specific weapons, based on their alignment.

[arythmic]

There is a list of spells that don't work if you don't have a deity, the War domain's weapon proficiency doesn't work, and you lose access to deity-specific stuff like Initiate feats and several PrCs.

This is the stuff I'm looking to understand...

Since I originally wanted my cleric to have both the "Healing" and "Protection" domains, I would have to be godless, but in that event, I could be good and not lose spontaneous casting and undead related abilities. I'd only have to give up the neutral alignment for a good one instead. Or maybe there would be other consequences too? This is what I'm trying to get to the bottom of so I can decide what I want to do and how I want to run it.


There is a list of spells that don't work if you don't have a deity

Can you point me to that list? I want to read it. Or, if you only meant it metaphorically, how do I know which spells exhibit this phenomenon? So far, randomly picking level 1 and 2 cleric spells, I haven't found any evidence that one won't work without a god.

I imagine there's something there that I'm missing. I just have to find it.

As far as the other stuff, can you point me to where it's stated? If I find that, I'll start looking around, putting 2 and 2 together, and at some point my understanding will reach critical mass and I won't need further help...

Thanks!

[Big Fau]

In Forgotten Realms, not worshipping a Deity prevents you from being Raised. This can be quite bad for some.

[angry_bear]

Unless otherwise stated in the setting, there are no mechanical downsides to being a cleric, druid, or paladin without a deity. There are in game reasons, a group of villagers may be more, or less receptive seeing a divine caster who's deity they recognize. You'll have access to your religious order, and their resources, but that's all at the DM's discretion rather than actual rules for most settings.

[Cruiser1]

So far, randomly picking level 1 and 2 cleric spells, I haven't found any evidence that one won't work without a god.
The Clr 2 spell Substitute Domain (CC) allows you to temporarily swap one of your domains for another that your deity offers. That spell doesn't do anything if you have no deity. It's an interesting tradeoff of having no deity (you can pick any two domains you want, but they're fixed) vs. having a deity (you are limited in domain choices, but can change them among that set of choices).

[arythmic]

Unless otherwise stated in the setting, there are no mechanical downsides to being a cleric, druid, or paladin without a deity.

So how would you interpret the situation i presented earlier:


1. Any good cleric can turn or destroy undead creatures, regardless if they have a god or not.
2. Any evil cleric can instead rebuke or command such creatures, regardless if they have a god or not.
3. A neutral cleric "who worships a good deity" can turn or destroy undead.
4. A neutral cleric "who worships an evil deity" can rebuke or command such creatures.
5. A neutral cleric of a neutral deity must choose.

A neutral cleric with NO deity at all is not explicitly called out here as having either ability. Therefore, as this is the only remaining possibility, and it is not explicitly defined, we have interpreted this to imply they do not have the ability.

Spontaneous Casting is the same way.

Thanks for your perspective...

Also,

"Aura (Ex)
A cleric of a chaotic, evil, good, or lawful deity has a particularly powerful aura corresponding to the deity’s alignment (see the detect evil spell for details). Clerics who don’t worship a specific deity but choose the Chaos, Evil, Good, or Law domain have a similarly powerful aura of the corresponding alignment."

This would imply:
1. A cleric who has no deity and does not choose the Chaos, Evil, Good, or Law domain has no Aura.
2. A cleric who worships a specific NEUTRAL deity does not get an Aura, even if they choose the Chaos, Evil, Good, or Law domain.

Right now the only downside I see with this is that if you are a level 11 or higher so that your aura (if you had one) would be overwhelming, and someone of half your level or less casts Detect <whatever would reveal your hypothetical aura> then studies for 2 rounds, they would NOT be stunned for 1 round and have their spell end. (because you dont actually have the aura.)

[arythmic]

The Clr 2 spell Substitute Domain (CC) allows you to temporarily swap one of your domains for another that your deity offers.

Interesting. I'll have to consider that one closely...

So my list is growing.

Things affected by a cleric having no deity (given the right circumstances):
1. Spontaneous Casting
2. Affecting Undead
3. Aura
4. War Domain Weapon Proficiency and Focus
5. Domain Substitution
6. ?

[Spuddles]

The real cheese with substitute domain is via pantheon worship. This gets you access to a ton of different domains. Faiths & Pantheons or Deities & Demigods is full of pantheons. It's a great way to get access to diametrically opposing domains. Eberron also has RAW pantheon worship, I believe.

As far as fluff goes, pantheon worship makes more sense in many cases than the bizarre monolatry that pervades DnD fluff.

[137beth]

Yea, Golarion doesn't allow non-theistic clerics at all, nor does it allow pantheon-worship for clerics, because...James Jacobs decided he didn't like pantheons for clerics:annoyed:

[arythmic]

Just found another one:

Without having a deity, you can't use the True Believer feat (unless, i guess, you choose a deity while taking the feat)

http://dndtools.eu/feats/complete-divine--56/true-believer--2974/

[arythmic]

A neutral cleric with NO deity at all is not explicitly called out here as having either ability. Therefore, as this is the only remaining possibility, and it is not explicitly defined, we have interpreted this to imply they do not have the ability.

This would seem to conflict with the statement in the SRD cleric section: "Any cleric, regardless of alignment, has the power to affect undead creatures by channeling the power of his faith through his holy (or unholy) symbol (see Turn or Rebuke Undead)."

however if you "see Turn or Rebuke Undead" it says "some neutral clerics" can, implying that there are also some neutral clerics who can't.

I'm guessing that means the intent was so that neutral clerics with no god cant turn undead, but i dont know, and i guess the DM would be responsible for a ruling. perhaps "channeling the power of his faith" implies having a god in this case.

[TuggyNE]

This would seem to conflict with the statement in the SRD cleric section: "Any cleric, regardless of alignment, has the power to affect undead creatures by channeling the power of his faith through his holy (or unholy) symbol (see Turn or Rebuke Undead)."

however if you "see Turn or Rebuke Undead" it says "some neutral clerics" can, implying that there are also some neutral clerics who can't.

Some neutral clerics can turn. Some can rebuke. The two sets are disjoint, but since it's plain from the earlier statement that the union of Turn-capable and Rebuke-capable clerics is the same as the set of all clerics, all neutral clerics must either be able to turn, or be able to rebuke.

[Alleran]

In Forgotten Realms, not worshipping a Deity prevents you from being Raised. This can be quite bad for some.
Technically, you can still be returned to life. It just takes a Wish or Miracle to do it instead.


Yea, Golarion doesn't allow non-theistic clerics at all, nor does it allow pantheon-worship for clerics, because...James Jacobs decided he didn't like pantheons for clerics
IIRC, his decision was that clerics are priests of a specific deity, and so they worship one deity in particular as far as Golarion is concerned. Pantheon-worship, ideal-worship and similar stuff is in the Oracle's ballpark (or Paladins, Inquisitors etc.).

[Urpriest]

Can you point me to that list? I want to read it. Or, if you only meant it metaphorically, how do I know which spells exhibit this phenomenon? So far, randomly picking level 1 and 2 cleric spells, I haven't found any evidence that one won't work without a god.


I don't know of any comprehensive list. Curmudgeon tends to list a fair number whenever this topic comes up, so if he drops by this thread he might have an answer (in addition to clearing up the RAW issue of whether you get turning as a neutral godless cleric).

For the most part, they're splatbook spells otherwise like Spiritual Weapon. While Spiritual Weapon has explicit exceptions for godless clerics, most such spells don't because the very idea that someone would play differently than the most cliched expectations was anathema to 3.5's designers.

[Chronos]

And even Spiritual Weapon doesn't say what a neutral cleric of no deity gets.

[arythmic]

Well folks... "A cleric may not be neutral unless his deity’s alignment is also neutral."

Would this then imply that a neutral cleric must then have a deity in the first place, so that deity can then have a neutral alignment, to then even allow the cleric to be neutral to begin with?

This would seem to challenge the notion that there can exist a neutral cleric who has no god.

That would make a lot of other things make some more sense, and i'm afraid we may have brought this issue full-circle...

Thoughts?

[TuggyNE]

Well folks... "A cleric may not be neutral unless his deity’s alignment is also neutral."

Would this then imply that a neutral cleric must then have a deity in the first place, so that deity can then have a neutral alignment, to then even allow the cleric to be neutral to begin with?

No. That section, like many sections in the Cleric class writeup, does not explicitly deal with the possibility of deity-less Clerics at all. Here's the entirety of the SRD text:
Alignment
A cleric’s alignment must be within one step of his deity’s (that is, it may be one step away on either the lawful-chaotic axis or the good-evil axis, but not both). A cleric may not be neutral unless his deity’s alignment is also neutral.

If you read that in isolation, it looks like there are no deity-less Clerics at all, which is clearly wrong. Instead, based on the other rules for the class, you should insert the required exceptions yourself when reading: "…one step of his deity's (or cause's; that is…" and "unless his deity's (or cause's) alignment is also…" respectively.

[Spuddles]

Some neutral clerics can turn. Some can rebuke. The two sets are disjoint, but since it's plain from the earlier statement that the union of Turn-capable and Rebuke-capable clerics is the same as the set of all clerics, all neutral clerics must either be able to turn, or be able to rebuke.

.: set theory