Dealing with enemy summons

[bekeleven]

I'm looking for all the ways to shut a summoner down. So far I have:


Banishment/Dismissal (will save on summoned creature)
Dispels (opposed caster level check)
Corral Based on alignment (protection/magic circle, beat SR)
Mind control (Suggestion, Dominate Monster, will save on summoned creature)


Are there any others? I'm particularly looking for novel mechanics, something along the lines of:


Dispelling with no checks at all
Any way of controlling enemy summons specifically designed to work against summons. A "control summoning" spell?
Dispelling based on HD of creatures
Any other mechanics I haven't mentioned

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Magic Circle Against Evil/Law/Chaos/Good makes it so summoned creatures are not even capable of attacking your party. You can even use Persistent Spell on that. Another option is to use Summon Nature's Ally for a Unicorn, which projects a supernatural Magic Circle Against Evil that enemy summons can't even push through with SR.

[Psyren]

Dispelling with no checks at all

Dispelling always has checks, however, you can counterspell with the same spell they're using to autosucceed.



Any way of controlling enemy summons specifically designed to work against summons. A "control summoning" spell?

Distort/Perfect Summons (from BoVD/BoED, respectively) let you interfere with a summoner by creating a zone where they can only bring in the opposite-alignment version of whatever they were trying to summon, and the creature attacking them instead.



Any other mechanics I haven't mentioned


An easy one you haven't mentioned is disrupting their spell. Summons often take a long time to cast (1 round), and so you can pummel them with a spell or ranged attack to force an impossible Concentration DC.

[Snowbluff]

Dispelling always has checks, however, you can counterspell with the same spell they're using to autosucceed.


*cough*Truenamer. *cough*

There are also opposing spells, like slow and haste.

[Tvtyrant]

I rarely find summons to be a problem. Most summoned monsters are so far below CR that they cannot influence the outcome of a fight.

Where they are a problem I suggest using the tricks suggested by Psyren.

[Psyren]

*cough*Truenamer. *cough*

That does require a check; it just happens to be a Truespeak check rather than a dispel check. :smalltongue:



There are also opposing spells, like slow and haste.

Indeed, though I'm not aware of any of those for the SM/SNA line.

[Snowbluff]

That does require a check; it just happens to be a Truespeak check rather than a dispel check. :smalltongue:
*nods* To the cheat machine! Max Truespeech!



Indeed, though I'm not aware of any of those for the SM/SNA line.

Conjuration doesn't have many opposing spells, methinks.

[bekeleven]

Magic Circle Against Evil/Law/Chaos/Good makes it so summoned creatures are not even capable of attacking your party. You can even use Persistent Spell on that. Another option is to use Summon Nature's Ally for a Unicorn, which projects a supernatural Magic Circle Against Evil that enemy summons can't even push through with SR.

Magic circles are one of the 4 categories I listed.

Also, the unicorn's SR resist is pretty weak. As a supernatural ability, the effective caster level is equal to the creature's hit dice - 4.

[Psyren]

As a supernatural ability, the effective caster level is equal to the creature's hit dice - 4.

Where'd you get that? Supernatural abilities have a CL equal to the creature's HD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#supernaturalAbilities), not HD - 4.

[bekeleven]

Where'd you get that? Supernatural abilities have a CL equal to the creature's HD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#supernaturalAbilities), not HD - 4.

Let me rephrase.

The effective caster level is equal to the creature's hit dice: 4.

And I'm not collecting this knowledge because I am afraid of summoners but rather because I wish for summoners to be frightening.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Supernatural abilities are magical and go away in an antimagic field but are not subject to spell resistance... (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#supernaturalAbilities)

As I said, there's zero chance of an enemy summon using SR to get through a Unicorn's magic circle.

[bekeleven]

Supernatural abilities are magical and go away in an antimagic field but are not subject to spell resistance... (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#supernaturalAbilities)

As I said, there's zero chance of an enemy summon using SR to get through a Unicorn's magic circle.

Well, now I have a new use for dragonblood sorc substitution levels. Good catch.

[Tvtyrant]

Let me rephrase.

The effective caster level is equal to the creature's hit dice: 4.

And I'm not collecting this knowledge because I am afraid of summoners but rather because I wish for summoners to be frightening.

Making summoners frightening is easy; make summoning a swift action. The summoner can now debuff/control while summoning without wasting slots on metamagic (or feats) and use his army to destroy the enemy.

[eggynack]

And I'm not collecting this knowledge because I am afraid of summoners but rather because I wish for summoners to be frightening.
What kinda level and type of summoner are we talking about here? I tend to prefer the druidic burly animal/elemental/rashemi elemental method, but the wizard into malconvoker with rapid summoning method is pretty sweet as well.

[bekeleven]

What kinda level and type of summoner are we talking about here? I tend to prefer the druidic burly animal/elemental/rashemi elemental method, but the wizard into malconvoker with rapid summoning method is pretty sweet as well.
I am designing a tier 3 full-casting base class built around summoning spells. I want it to have all the power of Summon Monster 9, none of the power of gate, and have no simple or single-spell mechanical counters.

The thing is that even if you dumb down summoning on a tier 1 class (Malconvoker and paragnostic apostle instead of incantatrix and halruaan elder), it's still tier 1. Sorc 20 built around summoning dips to tier 4, while a Sorc 5/Mindbender1/Malconvoker9/Paragnostic Apostle4/XX 1 still feels tier 2.

I'm looking for that tier 3 sweet spot. So I constructed a full casting class, gave it no spells that require saves (except enlarge, reduce, and dispel lines), and loaded it with every conjuration(summoning) spell in the game plus a bunch of buffs and a few teleports. Now I'm working on the mechanical hard counters.

[Sith_Happens]

You mean like Dread Necromancer or Beguiler? Because each of those classes does have certain encounters they're just sort of boned against. It comes with the territory of being a themed caster.

[rot42]

The Throat bind for the Planar Ward soulmeld (Magic of Incarnum 83) gives passive banishment checks when the meldshaper is struck by an extraplanar creature; this falls under category 1, but is also unusual. AMF will hurt a summoner by denying part of the battlefield with no check. Summoners are particularly vulnerable to any tactic that runs down the round clock.

[Vaz]

If you want power;

Neraph Wu Jen 6/Malconvoker 9 with Infernal Bargainer.

Have fun bringing in 28HD Creatures via Greater Spirit Binding at ECL15.

[danzibr]

You mean like Dread Necromancer or Beguiler? Because each of those classes does have certain encounters they're just sort of boned against. It comes with the territory of being a themed caster.
Hehe, made me laugh.

[mabriss lethe]

Warlocks get a Dark Invocation from Complete Mage called Steal Summoning. Three guesses what it is supposed to do.