How valuable are feats that grants spells to a sorcerer?

[CyberThread]

Those feats you get from dragon magazine, which grants spells per caster level and such like 1. Fire palm 2: cone of flame 3:fireball yadda yadda yad



How valuable are such feats for sorcerers ?

[holywhippet]

It sort of depends on how you are building your sorcerer. If the feats offer spells that are quite different from what you normally have, like direct damage spells when you mostly have disabling spells, then it can be quite useful for when you run into an enemy that is immune to your disabling spells for example.

In general, for classes with limited spell acquisition like sorcerers and bard, anything that will give you access to new spells is a good thing.

[Psyren]

About as valuable as Expanded Knowledge is to a Psion.

[CyberThread]

Well am looking at Cali****e elementalist : Air Specificly.


Basically, 0--mage hand; 1st--shocking grasp; 2nd-- levitate; 3rd--lightning bolt; 4th--shout; 5th--telekinesis; 6th-- chain lightning; 7th--reverse gravity; 8th--Bigby's clenched fist; 9th--Bigby's crushing hand.


And to top it off, If I reach the maximum allowed caster level on a spell, I can add another damage die to the affect. So Shocking grasp would be 6d6 instead of 5d6 , chain lightning would be 21d6 instead of 20d6 and the like.


Fire version grants

0--flare; 1st--burning hands; 2nd--pyrotechnics; 3rd--fireball; 4th--wall of fire; 5th--dismissal; 6th--control weather; 7th--delayed blast fireball; 8th--incendiary cloud; 9th--meteor swarm.


So am a little tempted as both have very good spells and equally resisted.

[Emperor Tippy]

About as valuable as Expanded Knowledge is to a Psion.

More valuable, a Psion can trade gold for more powers known and, if worse comes to worse, spend 50 XP per level and 10 minutes of time to use Psychic Reformation and totally respec.

For a thousand XP and 10 minutes of time a level 20 Psion can reselect all of his powers known, all of his feats, and reassign all of his skill points.

That makes Expanded Knowledge significantly less valuable for a Psion than more spells known are for a Sorcerer (who can't do the same thing natively, and by RAW can't reselect spells with Pyschic Reformation anyways).

[Chronos]

Most of the sorcerer feats also grant nine spells known, instead of the one a psion gets from Expanded Knowledge.

[holywhippet]

That makes Expanded Knowledge significantly less valuable for a Psion than more spells known are for a Sorcerer (who can't do the same thing natively, and by RAW can't reselect spells with Pyschic Reformation anyways).

They can't do the exact same thing but a sorcerer can, on every even numbered level from 4 onwards, swap out one of their spells for another spell of the same level.

[Psyren]

More valuable, a Psion can trade gold for more powers known and, if worse comes to worse, spend 50 XP per level and 10 minutes of time to use Psychic Reformation and totally respec.

For a thousand XP and 10 minutes of time a level 20 Psion can reselect all of his powers known, all of his feats, and reassign all of his skill points.

That makes Expanded Knowledge significantly less valuable for a Psion than more spells known are for a Sorcerer (who can't do the same thing natively, and by RAW can't reselect spells with Pyschic Reformation anyways).

That's fair; psions do have more options for learning additional powers known.

Regarding your PsyReform point though, I will mention that WotC has okayed Limited Wish to perform a similar function for sorcerers. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sg/20050520a)

[Snowbluff]

Regarding your PsyReform point though, I will mention that WotC has okayed Limited Wish to perform a similar function for sorcerers. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sg/20050520a)

Huh. That's an interesting idea for an article. Thanks for the reading material, Psyren.

[Psyren]

Huh. That's an interesting idea for an article. Thanks for the reading material, Psyren.

No problem!

I found that article due to another thread asking for additional uses for Limited Wish (And that search also led me to another one I have bookmarked - additional uses for Prestidigitation (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20010707) :smallbiggrin:)

[Larkas]

How valuable are such feats for sorcerers ?

Approximately 1000*(Spell Level)^2 gp.

So, if a feat gives you a spell of each spell level, 285,000 gp. If it gives you a cantrip too, then 285,500 gp.

That's based on the price of a Knowstone, by the way.

[DeAnno]

I'd say if you're randomly looking for a feat to take (ie not feat starved of necessary feats), one of them or another will usually be among the best options. Usually about 1/3 of the spells are ones you could've convinced yourself to take, 1/3 are useful at times anyways, and 1/3 suck, which is still like 4.5 spells known.

Especially worth mentioning is it can be tricky to get a 4th 9th level spell known without spending a lot of money, and there are some decent 9ths on those lists iirc.

[Spuddles]

I would spend at least one feat on such a feat. Dont forget, every even lvl from 4th on, you can trade out a useless bloodline spell for a better one.

Personally, I view sorcerer builds taking one of two forms- metamagic optimization, and spells known optimization. Both are extremely feat hungry, so are somewhat mutually exclusive. Just be aware that with proper spell selection and feats like split ray, empower, sculpt spell, quicken spell, heighten spell, and fell drain, you can effectively get one spell to act as several different spells. Just make sure you have a way to get around those pesky casting times.


More valuable, a Psion can trade gold for more powers known and, if worse comes to worse, spend 50 XP per level and 10 minutes of time to use Psychic Reformation and totally respec.

For a thousand XP and 10 minutes of time a level 20 Psion can reselect all of his powers known, all of his feats, and reassign all of his skill points.

That makes Expanded Knowledge significantly less valuable for a Psion than more spells known are for a Sorcerer (who can't do the same thing natively, and by RAW can't reselect spells with Pyschic Reformation anyways).

What makes you say sorc can't use psy reform RAW? Psi-magic transparency allows references in power descriptions to count as spells unless there's a specific exception.

[Emperor Tippy]

What makes you say sorc can't use psy reform RAW? Psi-magic transparency allows references in power descriptions to count as spells unless there's a specific exception.


Psionics-Magic Transparency

Though not explicitly called out in the spell descriptions or magic item descriptions, spells, spell-like abilities, and magic items that could potentially affect psionics do affect psionics.

When the rule about psionics-magic transparency is in effect, it has the following ramifications.

Spell resistance is effective against powers, using the same mechanics. Likewise, power resistance is effective against spells, using the same mechanics as spell resistance. If a creature has one kind of resistance, it is assumed to have the other. (The effects have similar ends despite having been brought about by different means.)

All spells that dispel magic have equal effect against powers of the same level using the same mechanics, and vice versa.

The spell detect magic detects powers, their number, and their strength and location within 3 rounds (though a Psicraft check is necessary to identify the discipline of the psionic aura).

Dead magic areas are also dead psionics areas.

By RAW the above is all that transparency means. SR=PR, Dispel Magic=Dispel Psionics, Detect Magic=Detect Psionics, Dead Magic Area= Dead Psionics Area.

So please point out where Psychic Reformation allowing a Sorcerer to repick his spells known is allowed under transparency.

[Juntao112]

You might be able to use Limited Wish's "Produce any other effect whose power level is in line with the above effects" clause.

[CyberThread]

Lets not sidetrack this thread please, can you take your topic to a new thread before it sidetrack this one?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

This trick (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=267805#4) costs you only one feat and gets you as many spells as you want.

[CyberThread]

that is rather brilliant, and I know that feat already, a fun one that takes planning.

[Psyren]

You might be able to use Limited Wish's "Produce any other effect whose power level is in line with the above effects" clause.

Precisely - and a 4th-level power is almost certainly in line with a 4th-level spell. You could get Schism via Limited Wish if you wanted.

[Vizzerdrix]

I've never taken a blood line feat. I'd rather use those feats for Necrotic Cyst, Cerebrosis or to get into MotAO.

[Grod_The_Giant]

9 spells for one feat sounds like a good deal to me.

[Chronos]

I've never taken a blood line feat. I'd rather use those feats for Necrotic Cyst, Cerebrosis or to get into MotAO.
Which are also examples of "those feats that give you a bunch of spells known". Nobody said we were talking specifically about bloodline feats (though those are the bulk of them).

[Roguenewb]

I wish there was a custom bloodline feat. I've done Bloodline plus Apprentice(spellcaster) to trade them out faster, but thats basically 2 feats for 9 extra spells of your choice, a good use for 2 flaws I think.

[JaronK]

The real answer boils down to "it depends on the spells you get." Getting really amazing spells, well that would be very amazing, especially if Sorcerers don't normally get anything like them. If it's similar to something you would have taken anyway, it's not so great (still valuable, because now you can take something else). Often the spells gained this way are just not very good, so it doesn't matter.

JaronK