Frenzy Berserker Help PLZ! [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Wardog442

2013-09-22, 08:42 PM

I have regretfully taken the path of the Frenzy Berserker (I have yet to select the prestige lvl, but I have already dumped 2 feats into Intimidating/Destructive Rage as pre-reqs for FB, and my DM wont let me change them so...).

Books for campaign: All Complete books, PHB 1, MIC, Spell Compendium, DM Master Guide 1, and Monster Manual 1.

Now I am trying to find solutions to my problems ahead in my current campaign.
My Build is: Human , 1 Lvl Barb, 6 Lvl Fighter. Feats: P.A., Cleave, Extra Rage, Destructive Rage, Intimidating Rage, Imp. Bullrush, Shock Trooper, Leap Attack. Skill Tricks (from Complete Scoundrel): Twisting Charge, Nimble Charge, Never Outnumbered. Current items are: Burning(1d6) Greatsword and Cloak of Resistance +2 which will eventually be +5.

Please do not ask why I took said build. Please try to help me find a solution to the current problems I am facing as a Frenzy Berserker, if any. Ive now (late i know) discovered all my present problems due too lack of knowledge of the game itself (Im new, this is my third campaign).

Problem 1: What can I do about flying creatures? Such as a mage that just flies 30 feet above me and is casting fireballs at us while I chop up my party (Frenzy). Is there any way I could fly to reach the mage? Or is my party and I screwed with this dilemma?

This is what worries me the most, later on I will reply more "problems". Before this thread gets bombed with things like: Why did you pick FB? :P. Well quite simple, I didnt know how vulnerable a FB is against a flying target, and sense my DM dosent let me change 2 pre req feats im screwed! And I will have to continue down the path of party slaughter. So please to all of you members of the community, help.:smalleek:

QuickLyRaiNbow

2013-09-22, 09:00 PM

Well, the easy solution to the flying problem is a magic item. wings of flying and winged boots are both in the dmg. The solution to killing your party is a little more complicated.

Sir_Thaddeus

2013-09-22, 09:57 PM

Items that allows flying are really common. Fireballs are actually the least of your worries as far as ranged threats go; fire resistance, save boosters, and evasion are easily acquired through items. Most ranged damage is fairly low, barring spells (for which save boosters can help) and precision damage (which is limited in range, and can be guarded against with various forms of immunity).

The bigger problem, which you will encounter eventually, is the risk of killing your party. Threads have been devoted to this, with greater optimization minds than mine contributing, so I'll just summarize briefly. One option is to allow your party mage to cast enchantment spells of various sorts on you; the downside is ensuring vulnerability to these also leaves you open to enemy enchantments, which could be worse than an uncontrolled frenzy. The best solution in my mind is to boost your will save; it's a flat DC (I think, AFB right now), and if you pump your will enough you could succeed on all but a nat 1. In the case of a nat 1, your party is encouraged to find strategies to protect against you for one round; it's a 1/400 chance of rolling a nat 1 two rounds in a row.

bekeleven

2013-09-22, 10:08 PM

After reading the frenzy ability, I don't see anything that prevents you from willingly failing a saving throw. So give a party member a wand of Calm Emotions and you're good to go.

Mjollnir075

2013-09-22, 10:21 PM

Does Frenzy prohibit you from switching weapons? If you get into a situation where a TPK is imminent, why not try switching to a Merciful Sap or something?

Also, the Frenzied Berzerker Handbook (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=10962.0) may be able to help.

Edit: When I linked to that handbook, I didn't realize that it wasn't finished. Still has some info on it, but not remotely close to finished.

Wardog442

2013-09-22, 10:41 PM

Yes killing my party is indeed a huge problem, but that is being handled, and quite simple at that. Simply boost my Will up as high as i can i get that. But the current situation is this. While Frenzy is activated i cannot by any mental use activate magical items or use pots. There for if the enemy is using a fly spell, i would have to break frenzy first, then use the fly pot/boots for example. Im trying to find a way where I can attack this flying mage without having to break my frenzy. And im not sure about changing weapons. Ive discussed this with my DM and I have to go with the full on intention of killing some one.

Zaq

2013-09-23, 03:49 AM

Easy. Every morning, get yourself a little distance from the party, blindfold yourself, and use up all your Frenzies for the day shadow-boxing (well, you get what I mean). Then enjoy all the OTHER benefits of FB, like crazy insane Power Attack multipliers for OMGWTFBBQ damage, and Bob's your uncle.

ShneekeyTheLost

2013-09-23, 03:53 AM

As far as dealing with ranged opponents, you can try a dip into Bloodstorm Blade. This basically lets you use your melee weapon as a thrown weapon. A four-level splash basically lets you apply any of your attacks as either ranged or melee, and all attacks are considered to be melee attacks even if they are thrown weapons.

Of course, this only compounds the problem with TPKing the party when you fail a will save...

Your problem here is that anything which makes you more dangerous to your opponents will also make you more dangerous to your allies.

Baron Malkar

2013-09-23, 04:00 AM

For defense against flying you could always get a harpoon and a spool of endless rope and go air-fishing. for murdering your party, you could ask your DM for a specific exception to your book list for the righteous wrath feat from BoED, to get rid of your inability to think when in a rage/frenzy.

Deox

2013-09-23, 09:04 AM

Firstly, FB isn't as terrible as many like to make it out to be. Zaq has a very strong mention - burn your frenzies at the beginning of the day and enjoy ridiculous power attack returns.

Secondly, the FB does not mean "OMG TPK CLASS!". When under the effects of a frenzy, you must first attack any immediate foes to the best of your ability. Once no more foes are present, simply make a Will save as a free action to voluntarily end it at any time during your turn(DC 20). Most barbarians are going to have a very strong Con modifier, so going for Endurance into Steadfast Determination will make passing that save a joke.

Next, the limitation on use of magic items is only prohibited for activation. If you are already under the effects of flight with an item, you do not suddenly drop out of the sky. You may continue to enjoy the effects granted.

In regards to changing weapons - changing weapons is a perfectly acceptable action while under the effects - so long as it continues to help you attack "... to the best of her ability".

littlebum2002

2013-09-23, 12:30 PM

Interesting you asked this question.

Not too long ago, I was trying to "optimize" a Frenzied Berserker. The most important things I came up with were:

1) Maximize your Will save. Get as many modifiers as you can, but make sure you get Steadfast Determination. With this feat, ending your frenzy early is trivial.

2) In case you can't end (Will save not quite 20 yet, or roll a natural 1, minimize your reflex save. It may not make sense to weaken your character, but it gives your allies a backdoor to end your frenzy if they need to. They can all have a Wand of Grease or other way of causing a reflex-save attack against you, to give you another round to end your frenzy before you start killing everyone. My Reflex save was +1, so everytime I failed to end a frenzy, I immediately had my weapon and the floor under me Greased.

If your DM starts to exploit this, just have your caster magically increase your reflex save, and dispel it later if they need to.

Once you have your berzerker "under control", then pimp him out.

3) Ignore AC. Don't spend 1 GP more than you have to on armor or other ways to defend yourself. Why? You're going to have Deathless Frenzy. You can't die until your Frenzy ends. What's the difference between having your cleric have to heal you from -80 HP and from -130 HP? Not much.

4) Extend rage. 5 extra rounds to each frenzy

5) Add the Berzerker ability (MIC) to your weapon. +1d8 to every single attack when you rage/frenzy. Awesome. MUCH better than the +1 bonus it replaces.

6) Torc of Heroic Sacrifice (MIC). Again, you're a bottomless pit of HP. If your wizard or Cleric gets hit for enough damage that they die, you hit a little button and take the damage for them. They live, and you're at -70 HP instead of -40. Big whoop.

7) Two things I didn't realize when I started: You can frenzy ON TOP of Rage, and your rage/frenzy lasts as long as your IMPROVED CON modifier, not your old one. With both stacked on top of each other, and with Extended rage, you're going to be raging for a LONG time.

Not as critical, but my suggestions: I personally dumped the Greatsword and instead got a Falchion (18-20 Crit) and got Improved Critical (made it 15-20 crit). Then I added Prismatic Burst (+30,000 GP). Every time you Crit. (30% of the time), you hit your opponent with Prismatic Spray. Yes, even opponents which are immune to criticals. Awesome.

Since I really didn't care about defense, I got the best magical enhancement I could think of for armor: elemental defense! It's gonna cost a bit, since you need expensive elemental resistance as a prerequisite, but it deals 1d6 of one element damage for 5 rounds, 3 times a day. Not too shabby. I picked Cold since it's the only element not represented in my Prismatic Burst.

Yes killing my party is indeed a huge problem, but that is being handled, and quite simple at that. Simply boost my Will up as high as i can i get that. But the current situation is this. While Frenzy is activated i cannot by any mental use activate magical items or use pots. There for if the enemy is using a fly spell, i would have to break frenzy first, then use the fly pot/boots for example. Im trying to find a way where I can attack this flying mage without having to break my frenzy. And im not sure about changing weapons. Ive discussed this with my DM and I have to go with the full on intention of killing some one.

Have a backup crossbow. When you see a ranged enemy, throw your sword at them. Your sword isn't made for throwing, but you don't care, you're "going with the full intention of killing them". Since you now have no weapon, you now pick up your backup crossbow and start firing.

If your DM gives you crazy rules to work with, use them to your advantage. Who says you need to pause to change weapons when you can just throw your old weapon at someone?

Wardog442

2013-09-23, 05:11 PM

Interesting you asked this question.

Not too long ago, I was trying to "optimize" a Frenzied Berserker. The most important things I came up with were:

1) Maximize your Will save. Get as many modifiers as you can, but make sure you get Steadfast Determination. With this feat, ending your frenzy early is trivial.

2) In case you can't end (Will save not quite 20 yet, or roll a natural 1, minimize your reflex save. It may not make sense to weaken your character, but it gives your allies a backdoor to end your frenzy if they need to. They can all have a Wand of Grease or other way of causing a reflex-save attack against you, to give you another round to end your frenzy before you start killing everyone. My Reflex save was +1, so everytime I failed to end a frenzy, I immediately had my weapon and the floor under me Greased.

If your DM starts to exploit this, just have your caster magically increase your reflex save, and dispel it later if they need to.

Once you have your berzerker "under control", then pimp him out.

3) Ignore AC. Don't spend 1 GP more than you have to on armor or other ways to defend yourself. Why? You're going to have Deathless Frenzy. You can't die until your Frenzy ends. What's the difference between having your cleric have to heal you from -80 HP and from -130 HP? Not much.

4) Extend rage. 5 extra rounds to each frenzy

5) Add the Berzerker ability (MIC) to your weapon. +1d8 to every single attack when you rage/frenzy. Awesome. MUCH better than the +1 bonus it replaces.

6) Torc of Heroic Sacrifice (MIC). Again, you're a bottomless pit of HP. If your wizard or Cleric gets hit for enough damage that they die, you hit a little button and take the damage for them. They live, and you're at -70 HP instead of -40. Big whoop.

7) Two things I didn't realize when I started: You can frenzy ON TOP of Rage, and your rage/frenzy lasts as long as your IMPROVED CON modifier, not your old one. With both stacked on top of each other, and with Extended rage, you're going to be raging for a LONG time.

Not as critical, but my suggestions: I personally dumped the Greatsword and instead got a Falchion (18-20 Crit) and got Improved Critical (made it 15-20 crit). Then I added Prismatic Burst (+30,000 GP). Every time you Crit. (30% of the time), you hit your opponent with Prismatic Spray. Yes, even opponents which are immune to criticals. Awesome.

Since I really didn't care about defense, I got the best magical enhancement I could think of for armor: elemental defense! It's gonna cost a bit, since you need expensive elemental resistance as a prerequisite, but it deals 1d6 of one element damage for 5 rounds, 3 times a day. Not too shabby. I picked Cold since it's the only element not represented in my Prismatic Burst.

Have a backup crossbow. When you see a ranged enemy, throw your sword at them. Your sword isn't made for throwing, but you don't care, you're "going with the full intention of killing them". Since you now have no weapon, you now pick up your backup crossbow and start firing.

If your DM gives you crazy rules to work with, use them to your advantage. Who says you need to pause to change weapons when you can just throw your old weapon at someone?

Lol throw the weapon at them, I like this, meaning my party wont be at risk sense i cant go Charge/Leap Attack Full PA with Shock Trooper and slice some 1 in 2. I thank you for the advise. Right Now i could possibly get Steadfast Determination by lvl 12 if I pick up Endurance at lvl 9, but I was thinking of getting Extra Frenzy (Insane I know). If you only have 1 charge and it gets used up by a pack of wolfs and not a boss, whats the point about being a FB? I wont have imp PA until lvl 5 FB nor Supreme PA until lvl 10 FB. =/ I thank all for you;re replies. Helps alot :)

littlebum2002

2013-09-23, 05:15 PM

Lol throw the weapon at them, I like this, meaning my party wont be at risk sense i cant go Charge/Leap Attack Full PA with Shock Trooper and slice some 1 in 2. I thank you for the advise. Right Now i could possibly get Steadfast Determination by lvl 12 if I pick up Endurance at lvl 9, but I was thinking of getting Extra Frenzy (Insane I know). If you only have 1 charge and it gets used up by a pack of wolfs and not a boss, whats the point about being a FB? I wont have imp PA until lvl 5 FB nor Supreme PA until lvl 10 FB. =/ I thank all for you;re replies. Helps alot :)

I thought you already had Extra Rage? That works on both rages and frenzies.

Segev

2013-09-23, 05:24 PM

Did you know that Fly (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fly.htm) is a touch-range spell, and your party wizard should likely be considering you his best offensive spell (and thus be willing to cast it on you in the face of flying enemies)?

Can you use Ride while frenzied? If so, look into a flying mount. Heck, look into getting a winged dire boar that you tame by whatever means necessary. Winged is a template, and Dire Boars get, if I recall correctly, their own version of rage/frenzy. Now you ride your flying foaming pig at them, and they have two outraged angry monstrosities in their faces.

Deox

2013-09-23, 05:29 PM

Ride is Dex based and thus prohibited.

Segev

2013-09-23, 05:31 PM

Pity. Getting the wizard to cast Fly on you it is, then!

littlebum2002

2013-09-23, 05:34 PM

Besides, if you have a mount, guess who the closest creature to you when you end your frenzy will be? Poor winged dire badger, we knew thee well.

Also, IMHO, there's not much worthwhile past level 5 FB. I think once you hit that you should start thinking of another prestige class, especially if you have Extra Rage.

Segev

2013-09-23, 05:39 PM

...I was going to make this suggestion just to help with a mount, but it would actually work for the whole party, done right.

Make a permanent magic item of Suggestion that causes the Frenzied Berserker to perceive his party members as himself. Since his requirement is that he attack the nearest "other creature," and the mental compulsion makes him think they aren't "other" to him, he won't ever attack party members. Unintentionally, at least.

Immabozo

2013-09-23, 05:58 PM

Your DM sounds like he goes strictly RAW. In that case, the answer is simple. Have your whole party have a bag of marbles. Or a wand of grease. You cannot make a balance check, as FB in rage cannot use dex based skills.

Also, Steadfast Determination for con to will saves will help (also, don't auto fail on a 1 for fort saves, very nice!) you should only fail on a 1 every time.

Bloodstorm blade will be a great idea. There is also the possibility of your allies having invisibility pots just in case.

Immabozo

2013-09-23, 06:00 PM

littlebum2002

2013-09-23, 06:06 PM

Immabozo

2013-09-23, 06:10 PM

That's a good point. Skip the Steadfast Determination so you don't need to waste 2 feats. If everyone in your party has a wand (or potion) of invisibility, they can use it if you ever fail your will save. Once you turn around and find out you don't have any more enemies, then your frenzy ends anyway.

Then you stub your toe...

Or even in the last round of combat. A wand of invis should be cheap, 50 charges? Last each person 50 fights. Could you use a twin spell wand on a wand?

Icewraith

2013-09-23, 06:21 PM

Give the FB a merciful weapon with a command-activated word the entire party knows. Since many magic items have different command words for "on" and "off", modify memory the FB so he doesn't know how to deactivate his merciful weapon, but does know how to activate it.

This gives you some breathing room to employ the invisibility trick or any other party failsafes you may care to design. You can also have a spellcaster Major Image something big and threatening on top of a bit of the local terrain, and force the FB to go over and hit it at least once before he gets a shot at saving vs the illusion. Come to think of it, you could also just drop illusions of plants or whatever over the rest of the party, gaining the benefit of effective invisibility and breaking the frenzy. Silent or Minor image ought to do it in this case.

Tvtyrant

2013-09-23, 06:31 PM

Barbarian 2/Warblade 4 with Mad Foam Rager and Iron Heart Surge sounds awesome as a base for Frenzied Berserker. Get hit with any ability and you can delay it and then get rid of it.

littlebum2002

2013-09-23, 06:53 PM

Barbarian 2/Warblade 4 with Mad Foam Rager and Iron Heart Surge sounds awesome as a base for Frenzied Berserker. Get hit with any ability and you can delay it and then get rid of it.

Replace the 2nd level of barbarian with Fighter for a bonus feat. Uncanny dodge is useless with deathless frenzy.

Plus, I think this character has already been built

Immabozo

2013-09-23, 06:56 PM

Barbarian 2/Warblade 4 with Mad Foam Rager and Iron Heart Surge sounds awesome as a base for Frenzied Berserker. Get hit with any ability and you can delay it and then get rid of it.

IHS away your rage/frenzy. I'm gonna go with no. That does not sound like "fighting to the best of your ability"

Tvtyrant

2013-09-23, 07:01 PM

IHS away your rage/frenzy. I'm gonna go with no. That does not sound like "fighting to the best of your ability"

I was actually referring to daze/stun/etc. You wouldn't be able to remove your rage because you are the one effecting yourself with it anyways.

Immabozo

2013-09-23, 07:36 PM

I was actually referring to daze/stun/etc. You wouldn't be able to remove your rage because you are the one effecting yourself with it anyways.

Ah, then yeah, I think that would work well!

ShneekeyTheLost

2013-09-24, 12:55 PM

littlebum2002

2013-09-24, 01:29 PM

The problem with all of these tactics is that it either builds in a weakness into the FB that opponents can then exploit, or it runs the risk of a TPK.

Sooner or later, you WILL roll a natural 1. Sure, you can guarantee a re-roll. Sooner or later, you're going to roll a pair of Natural 1's back to back. It won't happen every session, it might not even happen in a year of gaming. But as long as you keep playing the character, every time combat ensues, there's that risk of TPK. And eventually, inevitably, it'll happen, and you'll wipe the party.

Steadfast Determination lets you use your Con mod for your Will save. Fine. You will never fail a Fort save by virtue of rolling a natural 1. Also fine. But snapping out of the frenzy is a will save which you can still fail on a natural 1. Which will eventually happen.

Eventually, it will happen. And when it does, your party is dead, except maybe the Wizard if he was built sufficiently paranoid.

And there is nothing you can do to prevent it. You can make it less likely, but unless you cripple him to keep the party safe and build in a weakness that opponents can exploit, you can never truly eliminate that risk.

Why would failing 1 will save kill your entire party? Every round you have another will save. So even if you fail one, you only have one more round before you have another chance to end the frenzy. The absolute worst case scenario is that you kill one member of your party.

Segev

2013-09-24, 01:32 PM

The problem with all of these tactics is that it either builds in a weakness into the FB that opponents can then exploit, or it runs the risk of a TPK.

Sooner or later, you WILL roll a natural 1. Sure, you can guarantee a re-roll. Sooner or later, you're going to roll a pair of Natural 1's back to back. It won't happen every session, it might not even happen in a year of gaming. But as long as you keep playing the character, every time combat ensues, there's that risk of TPK. And eventually, inevitably, it'll happen, and you'll wipe the party.

Steadfast Determination lets you use your Con mod for your Will save. Fine. You will never fail a Fort save by virtue of rolling a natural 1. Also fine. But snapping out of the frenzy is a will save which you can still fail on a natural 1. Which will eventually happen.

Eventually, it will happen. And when it does, your party is dead, except maybe the Wizard if he was built sufficiently paranoid.

And there is nothing you can do to prevent it. You can make it less likely, but unless you cripple him to keep the party safe and build in a weakness that opponents can exploit, you can never truly eliminate that risk.

Er, no. Let's assume he's got it set up so he'd have to roll a nat 1 twice to fail the save. Can he really TPK his whole party in 1 round? The party just needs to have a contingency plan in place to get out of the way when he keeps going for a round too long.

The odds of him rolling a nat 1 a third time in a row and going for 2 rounds are vanishingly small.

...of course, you know what would work well? Get the party a means of manifesting Time Hop. They all leap forward several rounds, leaving your FB with nobody to fight. He comes out of it naturally before they return.

Icewraith

2013-09-24, 01:37 PM

What about moment of perfect mind and the bard feat that lets you use perform instead of concentration? You need some way to then use intimidate instead of a perform check, since perform is still cha-based last I checked. I'm not sure if there is such a thing, but it might work.

Alternatively you could try and get ranks in perform:strongman and get the dm to agree that the skill is STR-based (similar to using STR instead of CHA for intimidate, bending an iron bar into a circle is a STR-based intimidate check).

Any time you don't want to frenzy, you use moment of perfect mind and your best Strongarm Alchemist impression to break/stop/avoid the effect. The technique HAS been in your family for generations, after all.

Edit: Considering the FB has supreme Cleave and usually Pounce via lion totem barbarian, it's better than most at scoring TPKs.

Immabozo

2013-09-24, 01:40 PM

Another option, dip 1 level of cleric (maybe cloistered?) and get luck domain to re-roll a failed save 1/day. Maybe there is another domain that can do something similar. So failing that save can be re-rolled, maybe up to twice per day. At four (average) encounters per day, being prepared to save half your end-of-rage will saves to roll again, maybe a third time, with all party members prepared for the possibility, maybe with per day items of invisibility, or potions, or wands of grease, etc

Your odds of going nuts on the party are slim.

littlebum2002

2013-09-24, 02:32 PM

I have a question for the OP: how much do you like your DM? Would you be OK with playing a fun trick on him? If so, here's what you need:

4th level Frenzied Berzerker (enough to get Deathless Frenzy)

A cursed sword. There is a cursed sword in the SRD called a "berserking sword". One you hold it, you go berserk until either a) you are dead, or b) everything else is.

Locked gauntlets to lock the sword in your hand

A cleric who can raise you from the dead

A wizard who has some magical means of making sure that sword does NOT leave your hand, ever.

Here's what you do. Get to the final Big Bad Evil Guy. Make sure he's in a room with a door that can be closed. Have someone cast "hold person" on you. Have the party put the sword in your gauntlet, lock it, then cast whatever spells they can think of to keep it locked forever. Then they throw you in the room with the BBEG, dispel "hold person" and lick the door behind you.

Here's what happens. The sword makes you go berserk. It is similar to your "frenzy" feature except you have even less control over yourself. Immediately you will see the BBEG and attack him with full power. He will, of course, attack you back. This will trigger your "frenzy" power. But you have deathless frenzy. So you can't die until your frenzy is over, and your frenzy can't end unless everything in the room is dead. So you just keep hacking away at the BBEG until he's dead, no matter how strong he is.

So your party just stands outside the door and waits for quiet. Once they hear that the fighting has stopped, they enter to find a dead BBEG and a dead frenzied berserker who died at about -6000 HP or so.

Then you tell your DM that's what he gets for making you have a berserker.

Immabozo

2013-09-24, 02:41 PM

Icewraith

2013-09-24, 02:48 PM

Deadline

2013-09-24, 03:08 PM

So your party just stands outside the door and waits for quiet. Once they hear that the fighting has stopped, they enter to find a dead BBEG and a dead frenzied berserker who died at about -6000 HP or so.

Or, you know, the BBEG disintegrates the frenzied berserker, or uses any number of save-or-die effects. Or save-or-lose effects.

Or a bag of marbles.

Lanson

2013-09-24, 03:50 PM

Or a bag of marbles.

I AM THE ULTIMATE FURY! YOUR PUNY SPELLS DO NOTHI*yelps like a kicked animal, slides across room on marbles*

littlebum2002

2013-09-24, 03:58 PM

BBEGs can cast Greater Invisibility or posess the Elusive Target tactical feat, cast brilliant aura on the Berserker's weapon and turn into a construct or undead (or be undead), teleport the Berserker outside the room and back into the party, disintegrate the door, use Major image to trick the FB into defenestrating himself, waves of exhaustion the FB, Hide, Forcecage, ability drain (and then raise the FB as a [nasty undead template] minion under his control)...

Yeah, if you want to get your FB killed or turned against the party in a supremely unpleasant manner, by all means try this on a remotely intelligent DM.

Or, you know, the BBEG disintegrates the frenzied berserker, or uses any number of save-or-die effects. Or save-or-lose effects.

Or a bag of marbles.

Yes, yes, all of the above. I planned this as a trick against a "brute force" BBEG. Like you said, it certainly won't work on a wizard.

But it would work in any other situation, wouldn't it? Couldn't this be used to kill a Tarresque, if it didn't need Wish to stay dead?

Deadline

2013-09-24, 04:00 PM

But it would work in any other situation, wouldn't it? Couldn't this be used to kill a Tarresque, if it didn't need Wish to stay dead?

Well, any situation where the opponent couldn't afford a bag of marbles, or had animal intelligence, yes.

Immabozo

2013-09-24, 04:33 PM

Well, any situation where the opponent couldn't afford a bag of marbles, or had animal intelligence, yes.

Well, that's supposing the FB could hit the Terrasques AC, could deal enough per round, consistently, to overcome regen and then there is also the whole swallow whole thing.

Icewraith

2013-09-24, 04:40 PM

I believe the FB is at a significant disadvantage if swallowed, aren't you considered grappled and have to cut your way out with a light piercing or slashing weapon? No 2h power attacking in that situation...

littlebum2002

2013-09-24, 04:44 PM

Shouldn't it help if he swallowed you whole?

That way, you can attack him from the inside, where there should be considerably less armor, if any at all. Since you can't die, you can just keep hacking away in there until he falls down, at which point your wizard runs in and finishes him off.

Immabozo

2013-09-24, 05:08 PM

ShneekeyTheLost

2013-09-24, 05:38 PM

Why would failing 1 will save kill your entire party? Every round you have another will save. So even if you fail one, you only have one more round before you have another chance to end the frenzy. The absolute worst case scenario is that you kill one member of your party.

If you can only attack one target a round, then you should just be ignored anyways as not even being a realistic threat to your opponents. I'm assuming, since we are talking Frenzied Berserker, that he's got Spirit Lion Totem for Pounce and enough reach to hit everyone.

Plus, he was worried about flying opponents. I suggested Bloodstorm Blade. If he's got that, then the only person in the party with half a chance of surviving is the Wizard, and then only if he employs optimal tactics.

littlebum2002

2013-09-24, 08:05 PM

If you can only attack one target a round, then you should just be ignored anyways as not even being a realistic threat to your opponents. I'm assuming, since we are talking Frenzied Berserker, that he's got Spirit Lion Totem for Pounce and enough reach to hit everyone.

Plus, he was worried about flying opponents. I suggested Bloodstorm Blade. If he's got that, then the only person in the party with half a chance of surviving is the Wizard, and then only if he employs optimal tactics.

And if you're powerful enough to kill 5 enemies of your level in one round then it's worth any disadvantage it may bring. You don't even need a party: just their the berserker in the room and everyone should be dead after the first round.

ShneekeyTheLost

2013-09-25, 05:33 AM

And if you're powerful enough to kill 5 enemies of your level in one round then it's worth any disadvantage it may bring. You don't even need a party: just their the berserker in the room and everyone should be dead after the first round.

Until you fall over dead from your wounds once you finish off your opponents...

ZeroNumerous

2013-09-25, 05:41 AM

Easy way to deal with a Frenzy Berserker?

Let a party member cast Dominate Person on you every day. Willingly fail your saving throw. You must now obey them. Every day. Whether Frenzied, Raging, whatever else: You must do what they say.

Gather the whole party up, then have the Dominating party member give the order: "Act as you see fit, unless it would otherwise cause harm to one of the X individuals present and visible before you currently."

You are now a "free" person who can no longer harm your party members despite Frenzy. The only problem is a Dispel, but that's fixed by just recasting Dominate.

If you ever receive a new saving throw due to being "forced to do something against your nature" simply choose to fail it if succeeding would put the party in danger.

TiaC

2013-09-25, 05:59 AM

As to flight, become a dragonborn. 100gp and it even boosts your con.

ShneekeyTheLost

2013-09-25, 07:05 AM

Segev

2013-09-25, 07:12 AM

Until it gets repressed by Frenzy

Non-rhetorical question: do the RAW of Frenzy state that it overrides/suppresses Dominate X, Compulsion, or Mind-Affecting Effects?

littlebum2002

2013-09-25, 07:26 AM

Non-rhetorical question: do the RAW of Frenzy state that it overrides/suppresses Dominate X, Compulsion, or Mind-Affecting Effects?

No, but once your frenzy compels you to attack your own teammates, you're going to fight any sort of domination to do otherwise. It's another level of security, but definitely not infallible. And since you've pumped your will save to end the frenzy, you're going to have a decent chance of shaking it.

That's the problem with Frenzy. You need to pump your Will to exit it, which also makes you less susceptible to efforts from your team to suppress you. Which is why you need to dump your Reflex save and have your team carry Wands of Grease.

Frenzy is very powerful, but it needs to be handled correctly. However, if your team is smart about it, they can reduce their chances of being killed to be negligible. And even if you DO happen to make a TPK, which you shouldn't if you've been smart, just carry a Wand of Raise Dead and invest in UMD.

Segev

2013-09-25, 07:49 AM

No, but once your frenzy compels you to attack your own teammates, you're going to fight any sort of domination to do otherwise. It's another level of security, but definitely not infallible. And since you've pumped your will save to end the frenzy, you're going to have a decent chance of shaking it.I think, if you're using the "Dominate the Berserker to keep him from becoming a liability" strategy, you actually tank his Will Save. Sure, he'll fail the one to drop out of the Frenzy, but he'll also fail the one to resist the Domination, even if the DM rules that "not attacking your friends is against your nature." The same luck-based re-roll effects can be used to guarantee a FAILED save, so you have the same two-roll threshold, and you have a third "bonus" roll at the beginning that has a small chance of working on a nat 20 (the original "drop out of Frenzy" roll).

Although, if you can make Concentration checks while Frenzying, a dip of PsyWarrior or a taking of Wild Talent coupled with acquisition of Moment of Mental Clarity (or whichever ToB Maneuver it is that lets you substitute a Concentration check for a Will save) will guarantee you make that one will save you care about. Expending your Psionic Focus lets you take 15 on any 1 Concentration check. Use that with the Maneuver, guarantee you aren't going to roll a "1," and you even know precisely what your Will save bonus has to be to succeed.

Which is why you need to dump your Reflex save and have your team carry Wands of Grease. Given that you probably should be getting Fly cast on you by your party wizard, this won't help. You really need it, because otherwise you're shut down by a level 1 wizard on the enemy side of any fight. Or even a level 1 commoner kid with a bag of marbles. So this isn't a good tactic for your party, either. They need something else to keep you in line, if you can't use the ToB/Psi combo suggested above.

The "dominate the tank" trick actually has other applications, too, by the by: it means that even with a crappy will save, the tank can't be taken over by enemy casters easily. They have to succeed an opposed CL check with the friendly caster.

Frenzy is very powerful, but it needs to be handled correctly. However, if your team is smart about it, they can reduce their chances of being killed to be negligible. And even if you DO happen to make a TPK, which you shouldn't if you've been smart, just carry a Wand of Raise Dead and invest in UMD.Honestly, I don't think 1 round of Frenzy will result in a TPK unless the FB is going to one-round-win every fight the party gets into, single-handedly.

He might - might - be able to insta-gib one PC in that round of misbehavior, if he targets a weakened-by-the-fight ally or picks exactly the wrong, poorly-defended PC who probably has no business in the party anyway.

littlebum2002

2013-09-25, 08:05 AM

Given that you probably should be getting Fly cast on you by your party wizard, this won't help. You really need it, because otherwise you're shut down by a level 1 wizard on the enemy side of any fight. Or even a level 1 commoner kid with a bag of marbles. So this isn't a good tactic for your party, either. They need something else to keep you in line, if you can't use the ToB/Psi combo suggested above.

True, but Wand of grease can also be used to make you drop your weapon. And if you're flying, that would be even worse, because now you need to spend time going to pick it up, which would probably give you another chance at a save.

Honestly, I don't think 1 round of Frenzy will result in a TPK unless the FB is going to one-round-win every fight the party gets into, single-handedly.

He might - might - be able to insta-gib one PC in that round of misbehavior, if he targets a weakened-by-the-fight ally or picks exactly the wrong, poorly-defended PC who probably has no business in the party anyway.

That was the point I was trying to make earlier, but he didn't grasp the sarcasm. If your character is honestly powerful enough to one-hit-kill an entire party of people your own level, it's worth any possible disadvantage that might come with it, since you would basically be the strongest character ever created in D&D.

Segev

2013-09-25, 08:27 AM

An acquaintance once tried to prove that there was no point at which D&D 3.5 broke, even at epic, because a DM "just has to know how to handle the party and challenge them appropriately." To demonstrate how to the DM he felt was not performing up to snuff, he and a friend of his worked together to design an epic game where any material in 3.5 was allowed. His friend would DM; the acquaintance, the DM-to-be-taught, myself, and another friend built the PCs.

I built a Warmage with some careful selection of advanced learning spells. Probably wouldn't have helped demonstrate brokenness of 3.5 at epic levels, but I mostly wanted all of the blasting just to play around with it. However, my character's favorite offensive spell had a somatic component of pointing, and a verbal of "go kill them." My friend who was not the DM-to-be-taught built a Frenzied Berserker with some shenanigans to get a bare minimum of monk levels and Exotic Weapon Master. Through a combination of tricks, he had about 10 attacks/round, and with his exotic monk weapon of choice could do, on average, enough damage to solid adamantine to have an effective burrow speed of 20 feet.

I forget how I obtained the spell, but one of my means of ensuring he got where he needed to be and NOT where we didn't want him was to use Telekinesis to pick him up and MOVE him to the enemy. If he lost control and wanted to attack us, well, I was his source of 3D movement and, unless he broke out of my Telekinetic grip, he couldn't even move to come to us.

Ultimately, the only way the DM-who-said-epic-wasn't-broken-with-the-right-DM could avoid having this berserker just win every encounter was to ad hoc instant-teleport powers onto every monster we faced, as at-will abilities.

Goggalor

2013-09-25, 08:34 AM

The way my group dealt with my frenzying problem was that at character creation (we started at level 12, I believe), I bought a weapon with a Command Word activated Merciful enchantment (I believe that's the one where you do subdual instead of regular damage) where the command word was in an extinct language (backstory of my character knowing one of the other characters before the adventure who was learned in the language). Everyone else was taught the word just in case and it was only used in cases where I failed my will save. Now, might that be used later by the BBEG through divination and/or other crafty methods? Yup, but it is another fail safe.

Additionally, if you are looking to help keep yourself up, you may want to look at the Wrathful Healing enchantment (+3 enhancement, Enemies & Allies, p. 20). It heals you for 50% of the damage that the weapon deals, which will be significant when you are PA-ing away.

littlebum2002

2013-09-25, 08:35 AM

I forget how I obtained the spell, but one of my means of ensuring he got where he needed to be and NOT where we didn't want him was to use Telekinesis to pick him up and MOVE him to the enemy. If he lost control and wanted to attack us, well, I was his source of 3D movement and, unless he broke out of my Telekinetic grip, he couldn't even move to come to us.

This is a pretty funny picture. You've got this guy foaming at the mouth trying to kill everyone he sees, and you basically just pick him up, point him at an enemy, let him hack and slash until enemy is dead, then carry him to the next enemy.

Kinda like holding an angry alligator by the tail and just pointing its mouth at anyone you want bitten.

The way my group dealt with my frenzying problem was that at character creation (we started at level 12, I believe), I bought a weapon with a Command Word activated Merciful enchantment (I believe that's the one where you do subdual instead of regular damage) where the command word was in an extinct language (backstory of my character knowing one of the other characters before the adventure who was learned in the language). Everyone else was taught the word just in case and it was only used in cases where I failed my will save. Now, might that be used later by the BBEG through divination and/or other crafty methods? Yup, but it is another fail safe.

Or you could have a Druid and put the command word in Druidic. That way, there's absolutely no way a non-Druidic BBEG can use the word. At least, that's my understanding of Druidic (that no one else can learn it)

Additionally, if you are looking to help keep yourself up, you may want to look at the Wrathful Healing enchantment (+3 enhancement, Enemies & Allies, p. 20). It heals you for 50% of the damage that the weapon deals, which will be significant when you are PA-ing away.

Meh. Not worth +3 enchantment if you ask me. You're deathless, so all your Cleric needs to do is make sure you stay above -150 HP so he can Heal you when your frenzy is over, and you should be OK. I don't think it's worth wasting a +3 enchantment on a weapon just so you can stay about -150 HP.

At 15th level, a Berserker should have at LEAST 120 HP, if not more. So, assuming you have someone who can cast Heal, you have effectively 270 HP. So no, I wouldn't waste 32,000 GP on a weapon to heal someone with 270 HP. If your Cleric can't keep this guy above -150 HP you need a new Cleric. I mean, I know using a Cleric as a walking band-aid isn't optimal, but this is asking the bare minimum of that person, I think it's worth it to free up that massive weapon enchantment for something powerful.

ShneekeyTheLost

2013-09-25, 08:47 AM

Telekineses has a cap of 375 lbs. INCLUDING GEAR. It's going to be hard to fit a beatstick in under that weight limit, particularly if size-increasing abilities are used. It also permits a Will save.

Also, most devious means of bypassing Dominate? Protection from Evil. Suppresses mind-controlling effects. Besides, if your own beatstick isn't protected against mind-controlling effects, then he's an even bigger TPK risk, because anyone can just slap a dominate on him and wipe the party.

Segev

2013-09-25, 09:12 AM

In all honesty, I don't recall it being brought up as a problem. So either we'd managed to work it in under that, or the supposedly-cheese-proof DM missed it (and I did, too, because I sure wasn't trying to sneak anything past him). ^^;

The Will save is made when you first use it to grab somebody; if they voluntarily fail it then, they don't get another later (unlike Dominate).

But, for making sure it's RAW-legal... hrm. I'll have to think about this a bit.

littlebum2002

2013-09-25, 09:48 AM

Also, most devious means of bypassing Dominate? Protection from Evil. Suppresses mind-controlling effects. Besides, if your own beatstick isn't protected against mind-controlling effects, then he's an even bigger TPK risk, because anyone can just slap a dominate on him and wipe the party.

This is a good point, and this is why I don't like the Will saves to end the Frenzy either. Having a Berserker with a low will score is REALLY dangerous.

The Telekenesis would have worked for me. He was a halfling Barbarian from the Talenta plains. Scrappy little sonofagun. His lack of optimalness was replaced by awesomeness.

littlebum2002

2013-09-26, 06:00 PM

ShneekeyTheLost

2013-09-26, 06:13 PM

I just thought of something: I KNOW there are spells out there that let you re-roll a failed will save. Im pretty sure there's one for clerics and one for bards, there may even be more.

So, assuming you pumped your will save up to +18, then you should only have a 1 in 20 chance of failing it. When you do, your caster gives you another chance, and therefore you only have a 1 in 400 chance of wigging out for a round.

That is true, but I already took this into consideration when making my statement. If you'll go back, you'll notice how I took for granted that you would be able to get a re-roll.

This does not change my ultimate position that it is inevitable that if you play your character long enough, eventually you will roll a Natural 1 or string of Natural 1's necessary to proceed to TPK.

For that matter, any Mastermind-type villian will recognize this inherent flaw and exploit it by sending in Tucker's Kobolds to start trying to set him off with minimal damage on a series of Natural 1's from concealment so the FB doesn't actually see them, meaning the only people left to attack that round are the rest of the party. I could see either Tarquin or Redcloak doing just that, in point of fact. And when that happens... proceed to TPK.

Segev

2013-09-26, 07:09 PM

The key phrase is "long enough." Technically, if he plays his character "long enough," he'll die of old age IRL. The question is whether that's likely in actual play.

And in truth, it isn't, especially since his party can probably be prepped to deal with one or two such instances. He's deadly and dangerous when backed up by them, but he's just one guy when he faces no threats OTHER than his own party, even if he's a dangerous guy.

ShneekeyTheLost

2013-09-26, 08:37 PM

The key phrase is "long enough." Technically, if he plays his character "long enough," he'll die of old age IRL. The question is whether that's likely in actual play.Even unlikely things happen. The first law of combat is always Murphy's. The problem here is that you are playing Russian Roulette with the whole party.

And in truth, it isn't, especially since his party can probably be prepped to deal with one or two such instances. He's deadly and dangerous when backed up by them, but he's just one guy when he faces no threats OTHER than his own party, even if he's a dangerous guy.

Anything built in as a weakness that the party can exploit can also be used by opponents to negate his ability to contribute in combat.

He's just one guy who can dish out over a thousand damage per swing, has enough extra attacks and reach and attack bonuses to hit and kill the whole party (unless the Wizard had a properly worded Contingency to get the heck out of dodge in time), and will do precisely that if he fails the will save(s), which will happen on a Natural 1 (or sufficiently long string of them).

The only character who might survive is the Wizard, simply because a properly paranoid and built wizard is effectively impossible to kill without resorting to Pun-Pun, and can even defeat Salient Divine Abilities with sufficient preparation.

littlebum2002

2013-09-26, 09:06 PM

Anything built in as a weakness that the party can exploit can also be used by opponents to negate his ability to contribute in combat.

Except that the party knows his weakness and his enemies don't. So if every enemy you run into just happens to have a grease spell prepared, then you know the GM is cheating.

Also, you're claiming that a frenzied berserker has to be optimized. Why? Forget Pounce. Even an unoptimized Berserker is stronger than an optimized Barbarian. So just hold his power back a little, he'll still be a crazy strong melee fighter, but the potential for TPK is minimized.

Besides, I REALLY doubt that any game where someone is this new to role playing expects you to be fully optimized to the point of having gotten a Spirit Lion barbarian for the pounce.

Third, your logic makes it sounds like every single party that has a Frenzied Berserker in it is doomed to a TPK. Yet I have heard of many parties using them, and have not heard of one TPK. I've heard people worrying about it, or joking about it, and I've heard of him perhaps occasionally attacking a member or two, but I think actual TPKs by berserkers are rare. So either you're being overly paranoid, or they've all thought of strategies you haven't thought of yet.

Immabozo

2013-09-26, 09:30 PM

One strategy, secrecy. If your secret is know by only 4 people, that is a super high DC check for gather info. Night impossible to make without severe cheese or DM Fiat, or magic. But how far is someone going to go on their scrying? If you talked about a flaw in your character around level 6 when you began the FB PrC and then start ruffling the BBEG's feathers around level 12, and face him at 16, how far is his scrying gonna search or pry into that?

Especially with non-obvious fail safe's in place. Dip cleric for luck domain and re-roll 1/day, buff from 3 different spells that allow 1/CASTING re-roll, then maybe the constant item of suggestion that says his party are all "extensions of himself" or however it is phrased, for another will save he has to fail before going nuts of the party. Everyone having rings/potions of invis is more visible, but not a dead give-away.

If you have infinite monkeys typing on an infinite amount of typewriters, for an infinite amount of time, you will eventually have one type out "Great Expectations", but I wouldn't hold my breath on it if I were you. Yes, FB has a downside, but with so many possibilities to minimize it, with 5 saves in a row that I just laid out, even before the other contingencies are required, that are completely invisible to an onlooker, there is little reason to shy away from the class for that reason.

littlebum2002

2013-09-26, 09:57 PM

I've got it.

Get your will save to +18 by any means necessary.

Get "dumb luck" gear feat from Complete Scoundrel. It let's you treat a natural 1 on a will save as a natural 20.

Congratulations. You have broken Frenzied Berserker. You will never turn on your party. And you don't have to rely on your party for it.

Immabozo

2013-09-26, 11:14 PM

I've got it.

Get your will save to +18 by any means necessary.

Get "dumb luck" gear from Complete Scoundrel. It let's you treat a natural 1 on a will save as a natural 20.

Congratulations. You have broken Frenzied Berserker. You will never turn on your party. And you don't have to rely on your party for it.

wow, that amazing gear! Mixed with steadfast determination's no auto-fail fort saves on a 1, you will be sitting pretty on saves!

ShneekeyTheLost

2013-09-27, 07:57 AM

Except that the party knows his weakness and his enemies don't. So if every enemy you run into just happens to have a grease spell prepared, then you know the GM is cheating.Except that any reasonable BBEG of the Mastermind Flavor will be observing the party and their tactics, and what happens when the Big Guy goes out of control.

Also remember that by this time, your characters are well over level 11, Legend Lore alone is more than enough to pull this information up. Hell, a simple Bardic Knowledge check is enough.

Think back on the Avengers. Loki specifically triggered Hulk on that installation. Why? Because the Hulk is famous, or infamous if you prefer, for his temper.

Why should a level 15+ Frenzied Berserker be any less famous?

Also, you're claiming that a frenzied berserker has to be optimized. Why? Forget Pounce. Even an unoptimized Berserker is stronger than an optimized Barbarian. So just hold his power back a little, he'll still be a crazy strong melee fighter, but the potential for TPK is minimized.What is the point in being able to do lots of damage to a single target when you have a few dozen others on the field? It would turn a viable beatstick into a completely worthless joke.

Besides, I REALLY doubt that any game where someone is this new to role playing expects you to be fully optimized to the point of having gotten a Spirit Lion barbarian for the pounce.At my table, it's considered standard fare for any melee build.

Third, your logic makes it sounds like every single party that has a Frenzied Berserker in it is doomed to a TPK. Yet I have heard of many parties using them, and have not heard of one TPK. I've heard people worrying about it, or joking about it, and I've heard of him perhaps occasionally attacking a member or two, but I think actual TPKs by berserkers are rare. So either you're being overly paranoid, or they've all thought of strategies you haven't thought of yet.Heresay is notoriously unreliable. Try again.

The numbers do not lie. Eventually, he's going to go off. Eventually, you will trigger your frenzy. Eventually, you WILL either a) stop playing the character, or b) TPK.

The feat Dumb Luck may only be used once per day. All it does is add another iteration to the requirement. It delays the inevitable, it doesn't negate it.

Segev

2013-09-27, 08:46 AM

Thing is, the party's "handle him if he goes out of control" can be as simple as "hide until he calms down." Or "go away until..."

If enemies use this tactic, they're ceding initiative to the party or simply giving up the field to them.

So no, things aren't symmetrical here. The party can Time Hop forward a few rounds, or initiate "Plan Hide-in-the-portable-hole," or teleport away, or hide behind a Silent Image...

If the enemy Time Hops, he avoids the FB, sure, but he also gives the party time to set things up for his return. If the enemy hides in a portable hole, the PCs just have to close it up and take it with them, never letting him out. If he teleports away, the party can either wait for him to return, or can go about their business because they got rid of the opposition. If the enemy hides behind a Silent Image, the rest of the party can do things to make it clear it's an illusion, or just attack the guy anyway.

Most of these tactics are rare-use and only work if the sole hazard is the FB while he's in a frenzy. Do them while there's a party backing him up, and they either fail miserably or backfire completely.

Deox

2013-09-27, 09:20 AM

At my table, it's considered standard fare for any melee build.

That's your table, not all.

The numbers do not lie. Eventually, he's going to go off. Eventually, you will trigger your frenzy. Eventually, you WILL either a) stop playing the character, or b) TPK.

True either A or B will happen. The player may stop playing the character because he's bored of it, the character dies, or any other multitude of reasons. It's not as simple as stated.

It delays the inevitable, it doesn't negate it.

The guy is going to freak out, yes. There still is the issue of how some (myself included) play the FB: burn your frenzies each morning so you can't flip out. Sometimes, because of RP reasons, the character will not go through his morning 'ritual'. Even so, as written, you can't frenzy more than once in an encounter. Break / remove it once, you're set. There are slews of ways to negate the 'inevitable'.

Have you just had poor experiences with the FB that have left a foul taste?

Der_DWSage

2013-09-27, 10:10 AM

I'm wondering the same thing as Deox-it's possible to have the FB go berserk and kill the whole party, sure. It's also possible that the BBEG will cast Dominate Person on the Shock Trooper Fighter and have -him- slaughter the party, that the entire party will roll a 1 on a fortitude save vs. Circle of Death, or any other various tactics. This is all about mitigating the risk of that happening, rather than just going 'Nopenopenope. Not worth touching.'

He's already a Frenzied Berserker. It's not about getting a better build-it's about mitigating the risks therein.

On that note:Make sure the Cleric has an Immediate Action defense of some kind to get him away from the FB if all hell breaks loose, and that he carries plenty of diamonds.

littlebum2002

2013-09-27, 10:41 AM

You need 2 extra luck reroll feats to get dumb luck. One of those is survivors luck, which lets you reroll a save. You can use this as many times a day you want to, as long as you have enough reroll feats. You have 3 of these: any prerequisite, survivors luck, and dumb luck. That means you need to get 4 natural 1's in a day to go berserk in your own party. That's a 1/16,000 chance.

I honestly hope you are smart enough to know there are MUCH more likely ways to TPK a party. If you honestly come on here and claim that a 1/16000 chance of TPK is too high, then I have no interest in continuing this discussion.

You also claim that a berserker can kill 5 people of his own level in a single turn. I would adj exactly how he would do this. I also asked previously why you would need any other party members in the room if you have 1 member who can completely destroy 5 people of his own level IN ONE ROUND. You answered because he would, somehow, be killed in that one round. So I guess I should ask by exactly what means an enemy wound inflict 300 HP damage in one round to put your berserker below the -149 HP where he can be healed in 1 round.

You have made some incredibly absurd claims. Forgive me fit asking you to prove them.

I also think it's funny that you would never consider giving up Pounce, even though it keeps you from getting Frenzied Berzerker which is MUCH more powerful. It's funny how trying to be "optimal" is actually keeping you from actually being optimal.

Standard fare at MY table is doing something different every time. I would quit the game if I had to take the exact same character path every time I played. How boring.

Immabozo

2013-09-27, 11:14 AM

I also think it's funny that you would never consider giving up Pounce, even though it keeps you from getting Frenzied Berzerker which is MUCH more powerful. It's funny how trying to be "optimal" is actually keeping you from actually being optimal.

Standard fare at MY table is doing something different every time. I would quit the game if I had to take the exact same character path every time I played. How boring.

Boredom aside, how does giving up pounce make you more optimized?

Feilith

2013-09-27, 11:41 AM

You also claim that a berserker can kill 5 people of his own level in a single turn. I would adj exactly how he would do this. I also asked previously why you would need any other party members in the room if you have 1 member who can completely destroy 5 people of his own level IN ONE ROUND. You answered because he would, somehow, be killed in that one round. So I guess I should ask by exactly what means an enemy wound inflict 300 HP damage in one round to put your berserker below the -149 HP where he can be healed in 1 round.

Properly built a FB can do it pretty easily, but it requires the party to be stupid. The casters standing in the back (most commonly standing in their marching order because, hey why move if I don't have to?) and within 5 ft of eachother. The FB charges and "Attacks them to the best of his ability" this means, at lv 15 a shock trooper power attack with all of his AC dumped into it at a 5:1 ratio Improved power attack and leap attack, now his AC should be reliably be somewhere in the 20s if not 30s by now which means 100-150 extra damage on a full BaB swing. Then greater cleave through the casters(2-3) now the other front line fighter has one round to hack you to bits before you decimate him.

Lesson: Don't all stand in a pack if you're casters, and have the cleric with calm emotions stand in the far far back

Just proving that it is possible, and probable if the ranged don't expect a gigantic cleave to rip through them

ShneekeyTheLost

2013-09-27, 11:59 AM

Have you just had poor experiences with the FB that have left a foul taste?

It is bad game design that the 'balancing feature' of a class is a possible TPK. You are using table drama as a means of trying to balance an otherwise unbalanced class. The solution is to balance the class, not to cause table drama.

As far as optimization goes, Frenzied Berserker is completely unnecessary. Even without it, you can get per-hit damage numbers high enough to one-shot any opponent you manage to hit, up to and including Big T (or at least deal enough damage to Big T that your wizard can Wish him gone). Pounce simply means you get to kill more things.

Being able to deal 1,000 damage or 100,000 damage per hit is irrelevant if none of your opponents have more than 1,000 hit points. You just waste more effort on a single attack instead of clearing the whole battlefield in one round.

littlebum2002

2013-09-27, 01:52 PM

Boredom aside, how does giving up pounce make you more optimized?

Because Frenzied Berserker>Pounce. According to the claim, Pounce makes FB too able to make a TPK, so I say eliminate Pounce and get FB.

Maybe I'm wrong though. Maybe barbarian with pounce>FB. But in my opinion, it isn't. Of course, FB with pounce is optimal, but if a 1/16,000 chance of a TPK is too high, then I'd pick FB over Pounce

It is bad game design that the 'balancing feature' of a class is a possible TPK. You are using table drama as a means of trying to balance an otherwise unbalanced class. The solution is to balance the class, not to cause table drama.

As far as optimization goes, Frenzied Berserker is completely unnecessary. Even without it, you can get per-hit damage numbers high enough to one-shot any opponent you manage to hit, up to and including Big T (or at least deal enough damage to Big T that your wizard can Wish him gone). Pounce simply means you get to kill more things.

Being able to deal 1,000 damage or 100,000 damage per hit is irrelevant if none of your opponents have more than 1,000 hit points. You just waste more effort on a single attack instead of clearing the whole battlefield in one round.

So why is a FB with a 1/16,000 chance of TPK worse than a regular melee with a 1/20 chance of being Dominated and committing TPK? Unless you think every melee build should spend all those feats preventing him from being Dominated, and if you do, why not just go FB anyway?

Gnaeus

2013-09-27, 02:20 PM

That was the point I was trying to make earlier, but he didn't grasp the sarcasm. If your character is honestly powerful enough to one-hit-kill an entire party of people your own level, it's worth any possible disadvantage that might come with it, since you would basically be the strongest character ever created in D&D.

No.

A well built charger with FB should easily be able to one shot everything it can charge-pounce. It is entirely reasonable that such a character (with leap attack, shock trooper, valorous weapon, etc) can do several hundred points of damage per hit, and can make full attacks on a charge, and to hit bonuses like +35/+35/+30/+25. It is not even close to the strongest character ever created in D&D, because it is virtually useless in any situation where a ton of damage does not help.

Now, a high level wizard can survive this, through rediculousness like not actually being there but adventuring through an astral projection, or Contingency if Evocation was not a banned school (Teleport me away if Bob runs towards me). A lower level wizard maybe, with tricks like Greater Mirror Image or (but if the FB rolls the wrong number, scratch one wizard) or abrupt jaunt. Any PC which relies on defenses like HP and AC? Dead as dreams. Along with any other PC who is standing next to him with similar defenses.

And the other problem is that this happens at the END of the fight. So if Mr. Wizard had already cast his GMI to keep from dying earlier and had it dispelled or beaten down, or if everyone was clumped up to beat down some enemy, or if some people were already disabled and awaiting curing from the cleric, TPK is a very real possibility. Especially if the FB has taken enough damage that he will fall over when the rage ends.

Ahh, the swordsages.

Gnaeus

2013-09-27, 02:23 PM

Maybe I'm wrong though. Maybe barbarian with pounce>FB. But in my opinion, it isn't. Of course, FB with pounce is optimal, but if a 1/16,000 chance of a TPK is too high, then I'd pick FB over Pounce

So, having a character who can overkill several enemies at once is not as good as having a character who can overkill a single enemy by a wider margin and who ALSO may kill a party member? Curious.

So why is a FB with a 1/16,000 chance of TPK worse than a regular melee with a 1/20 chance of being Dominated and committing TPK? Unless you think every melee build should spend all those feats preventing him from being Dominated, and if you do, why not just go FB anyway?

You mind blank the fighter so he can't be dominated. you can't mind blank the FB so that he can't frenzy.

ShneekeyTheLost

2013-09-27, 02:27 PM

Because Frenzied Berserker>Pounce. According to the claim, Pounce makes FB too able to make a TPK, so I say eliminate Pounce and get FB.

Maybe I'm wrong though. Maybe barbarian with pounce>FB. But in my opinion, it isn't. Of course, FB with pounce is optimal, but if a 1/16,000 chance of a TPK is too high, then I'd pick FB over PouncePounce makes you viable. Otherwise you can only hit one opponent per turn. That's pathetic. You can still one-shot-KO things without FB, all the extra damage you are generating is being wasted.

So why is a FB with a 1/16,000 chance of TPK worse than a regular melee with a 1/20 chance of being Dominated and committing TPK? Unless you think every melee build should spend all those feats preventing him from being Dominated, and if you do, why not just go FB anyway?

It's called 'Protection from Evil'. It's a first level spell which suppresses (makes effectively immune to) domination effects. By the time you hit level 15, you should be getting Mind Blank online from one of several sources. Assuming you aren't immune to mind-affecting through one of many templates, class abilities, or buffs from other party members.

It is pathetically easy to be immune to mind-affecting. It is something I consider mandatory for ANY character, melee or not.

Gnaeus

2013-09-27, 02:33 PM

Also, in my experience, many players choose FB in a passive aggressive attempt to kill all the other players while retaining plausible deniability. The ones for whom this is not the reason either take one of the other routes to obscenely high damage, or just make it so that they can't fail will saves via some ability that protects them from natural 1s on saves.

littlebum2002

2013-09-27, 09:14 PM

Pounce makes you viable. Otherwise you can only hit one opponent per turn. That's pathetic. You can still one-shot-KO things without FB, all the extra damage you are generating is being wasted.

It's called 'Protection from Evil'. It's a first level spell which suppresses (makes effectively immune to) domination effects. By the time you hit level 15, you should be getting Mind Blank online from one of several sources. Assuming you aren't immune to mind-affecting through one of many templates, class abilities, or buffs from other party members.

It is pathetically easy to be immune to mind-affecting. It is something I consider mandatory for ANY character, melee or not.

Protection from Evil can be dispelled, and the subject dominated. It's difficult, but certainly less difficult than rolling 4 natural 1's in a single day, correct?

If a 1/16,000 chance is too high for you, then why are you running around with a character that can be Dominated and y turned against you, with a much higher probability of doing so?

Wings of Peace

2013-09-27, 09:32 PM

It took a lot of soul searching to decide I wanted to reply despite the title having PLZ in it (I'm a petty person).

You're going to need flight eventually as you've recognized. There's just no way around that and you'll either need an item of it or a party caster to use it on you at the appropriate times. Other people have suggested items that are good for that.

I would also see if your party caster can craft a contingent spell set to trigger were you attack a member of the party while frenzying that casts something like grease to force a balance check that you won't be able to pass.

Immabozo

2013-09-27, 10:12 PM

I would also see if your party caster can craft a contingent spell set to trigger were you attack a member of the party while frenzying that casts something like grease to force a balance check that you won't be able to pass.

An accurate statement, seeing as Frenzy says no dex based skills, of which, balance is one.

You know, all this arguing is stupid. There is NOTHING in D&D with absolutely no answer to it. It's all about slimming down on the number of those answers and the possibilities or probability that it will be answered. 1/16,000 of a chance is low enough to not cause any worry.

But you know, in minimizing this flaw, you strengthen other potential weaknesses. You'r will save will be high, so getting dominated is less likely. You are more likely to see through illusions, etc.

Midnight_v

2013-09-28, 01:14 AM

@above post....
Back when we made the consolidated handbook... there was a build called the "Friendly Berserker" it is the ONLY WAY, to 100% never turn on your party. .

Frenzyied berseker + cumberous will = Friendly berserker

Cumberous will (http://dndtools.eu/feats/savage-species--47/cumbrous-will--495/)

Now how that works is this: You get a plus 6 on the save (and of course you already have iron will so +8 to will saves regardless) but what happens is this:

Last enemy goes down.
Will save to end rage (or next round start commiting bro i-cide)
pre save Activate cumberous will (and lets say you fail) You're then shaken

Next round comes up: Free action before you attack
Activate cumbrous will a second time. (ANNND YOU roll a 1). (because by this point you have -2 saves AND +8 from feats)

Your frienzied berskerer is now frightened (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#frightened). and must flee from the source of his fear if possible. (the source being I'm terrified of killing my boys... )

You've now mastered your rage.

"Would you like me to teach you to master your fear, as well?" the ancient barbarian king said over his shoulder with a harruph that turned into a chuckle as he began to walk upward into the night sky.

Seriously though, the problem with that is that he doesn't have SS listed on his allowed books. If he had all the tools at his disposal then sure. So he's kinda stuck running the risk.

In my opinion... if thats all you have to work with, you should seriously consider going BEAR WARRIOR (http://dndtools.eu/classes/bear-warrior/) instead.

Deox

2013-09-28, 02:21 AM

The solution is to balance the class, not to cause table drama.

While I can see the point, I'll disagree. Depending on optimization levels (and intelligence of the party), this entire worry of turning on friends could be entirely unfounded.

Being able to deal 1,000 damage or 100,000 damage per hit is irrelevant if none of your opponents have more than 1,000 hit points. You just waste more effort on a single attack instead of clearing the whole battlefield in one round.

Damage itself can be irrelevant, depending on the group.

On topic again, isn't there a tabard that could help in this? Valor or something? Don't recall exactly..

AMFV

2013-09-28, 03:13 AM

My recommendation would be to dip cleric and take the Pride domain, it lets you reroll nat 1s on a save, with no use limit per day at all. And then you get another juicy domain power too, so it's pretty much a win-win. Since your odds of rolling 2 natural 1s is pretty miniscule and that'd take 4 natural 1s to kill more than one member of your party, and even that becomes increasingly unlikely, in fact you could then take the Dumb Luck feat reducing the odds of that to miniscule at which point you should be able to avoid killing one party member in over 1,000 combats statistically.

ShneekeyTheLost

2013-09-28, 09:04 AM

Protection from Evil can be dispelled, and the subject dominated. It's difficult, but certainly less difficult than rolling 4 natural 1's in a single day, correct? You use your action to dispel, I use my action to turn you into a greasy stain.

Think about it, you just forced a wizard to blow his turn doing something as silly as dispelling That's a win right there.

If a 1/16,000 chance is too high for you, then why are you running around with a character that can be Dominated and y turned against you, with a much higher probability of doing so?
Because you need to Dominate THEN SURVIVE as I still rip your face off THEN realize you need to Dispel, THEN successfully LAND your Dispel (if your buddy is high enough level caster, then you can have a 0% chance of this working, since it is a skill check rather than a saving throw).

Remember, Dispel Magic caps out at +10, and even Greater Dispel caps out at +15. Just have your effective CL at 35 and neither one can touch your ProEvil on your beatstick.

Or, yanno, Necropolitian. Immunity to mind-affecting by template. Dominates never work. EVER.

There are MANY ways to be immune to mind-affecting. There is NO way to GUARANTEE that you won't TPK the party.

littlebum2002

2013-09-28, 01:22 PM

Immabozo

2013-09-28, 01:34 PM

There are MANY ways to be immune to mind-affecting. There is NO way to GUARANTEE that you won't TPK the party.

You are killin me smalls. I understand that you are a only-the-most-optimized-build power player, like much of this board, but for many others, taking precautions to minimize the possibility of failure is enough. This thread has come up with many options.

Dip Cleric, get Pride and Luck domains re-roll a nat 1 infinite times per day (but must take second result), re-roll 1 roll per day, "Dumb Luck" gear to treat a nat 1 as a nat 20, Cumbrous will for +6 to will saves for a shaken status (with making yourself frightened shenanigans), steadfast determination for con to will, there are several buffs to re-roll a missed save, all in addition to the usual +1-5 resist cloak most adventurers (at least at my tables) like.

Con should be around 22 with rage, easily raised higher, for a +6
Cumbrous Will for a +6 (and prereq for +2)
Cloak of resistance +3 (average)
And 2+buffs number of times you can re-roll a save, plus will from class levels, plus the gear to let you treat a nat 1 as a nat 20.

I guarantee, you will reach the end of your natural life, before you roll a 1 that you cannot change, benefit from, or re-roll.

littlebum2002

2013-09-28, 03:20 PM

Someone mentioned a Merciful weapon. Would that work? All you need to do is have a different word to "start" the nonlethal damage and to "end" it. Once you fail your save, someone in your party says the word to start nonlethal damage. You don't know the word to end it, so you only attack with nonlethal damage. Once you make your save, you revive your party, and one of them walks off to say the secret word to turn off the feature.

If that's not OK, just poke out your eardrums.

Midnight_v

2013-09-28, 06:48 PM

Cumbrous will for +6 to will saves for a shaken status (with making yourself frightened shenanigans

I genuinely resent that. Its not shenanigans, it's not a gimmick, its just how fear stacking works. MORE, importantly, it so cool in story, because here you have a guy whose deathly afraid of losing control of himself in his battle with personal demons. . .

of course smaller minded people wouldn't realize that because they want core fighter 20 only, NO OPTIMIZATION, final destination.
or some such nonsense, like they live in fear of the gods almighty tier system.

Immabozo

2013-09-28, 07:13 PM

I genuinely resent that. Its not shenanigans, it's not a gimmick, its just how fear stacking works. MORE, importantly, it so cool in story, because here you have a guy whose deathly afraid of losing control of himself in his battle with personal demons. . .

Please, if you will, define shenanigans. Onelook.com defines it as "silly, dishonest, or immoral behavior" please not, and emphasis on that very important or. I think it is silly, but good silly. It would cause me as a player at the table to laugh when I first saw it. I love the idea. Don't take it so hard.

ShneekeyTheLost

2013-09-28, 07:36 PM

Right, but there are ways to make that chance so infinitesimally small that it's absurd to even worry about it. A 1/16,000 chance which restarts itself every new day? Compared to the amount of extra power you get? No brainer. Take a level in cleric and your chance becomes 1/320,000

Compared to WHAT extra power? There is zero difference between doing 1k damage and 100k damage per swing. Once something gets to -10, it is DEAD, excess damage is WASTED.

Congratulations, you just installed a TPK button, then spent most of your resources trying to reduce the odds of pressing that button, for nothing. Have a nice day.

Scumbaggery

2013-09-28, 08:19 PM

This has devolved from a help thread to a whizzing contest on who is right about FB and TPK's :smallfrown:

Lilapop

2013-09-29, 07:56 AM

"Dumb Luck" gear to treat a nat 1 as a nat 20,

Seen this referenced in this thread multiple times, but all I can find is the feat itself. What book is the item from?

On Cumbrous Will: Yes, shaken + shaken = frightened. But iirc, it only works that way if you have two separate sources of shaken - using the same one twice only resets the duration (which is pointless in this case).

Immabozo

2013-09-29, 01:37 PM

Seen this referenced in this thread multiple times, but all I can find is the feat itself. What book is the item from?

On Cumbrous Will: Yes, shaken + shaken = frightened. But iirc, it only works that way if you have two separate sources of shaken - using the same one twice only resets the duration (which is pointless in this case).

As far as I know it is an item enchantment from Comp Scoundrel, not a feat, but I am not sure.

As far as the TPK, Captain Optimization is going to have a problem with it, yes, but the FB damage is not wasted. 1 hit kills are rare at my tables. Even if you were 1 hit killing things and totally insta-gibbing them, that +3 enchantment that healed + to heal damage done would still work.

ShneekeyTheLost

2013-09-29, 02:57 PM

As far as the TPK, Captain Optimization is going to have a problem with it, yes, but the FB damage is not wasted. 1 hit kills are rare at my tables. Even if you were 1 hit killing things and totally insta-gibbing them, that +3 enchantment that healed + to heal damage done would still work.It is fairly trivial to one-hit kill things when you aren't spending 2/3 of character resources (particularly feats and class dips) to try and reduce the odds of a TPK. Heck, by my count you're saving some four or five feats by not going FB (because you no longer need to mitigate the TPK button) which you can then spend on feats like Leap Attack, Headlong Rush, pick up a Valorous weapon...

FB costs you too much for what you get out of it. By the time you get done with all the 'try not to kill everyone' crap, you could've easily outstripped its performance.

littlebum2002

2013-09-29, 07:25 PM

It is fairly trivial to one-hit kill things when you aren't spending 2/3 of character resources (particularly feats and class dips) to try and reduce the odds of a TPK. Heck, by my count you're saving some four or five feats by not going FB (because you no longer need to mitigate the TPK button) which you can then spend on feats like Leap Attack, Headlong Rush, pick up a Valorous weapon...

FB costs you too much for what you get out of it. By the time you get done with all the 'try not to kill everyone' crap, you could've easily outstripped its performance.

Maybe so, but it's FUN. And believe it or not, some of us still play d&d to have fun.

EDIT: I'm sorry, that comment was out of line. We just have different ideas of fun. Your idea of fun is to optimize and see just how strong of a character you can create, and that's fine. My idea of fun is to try something new every time, and that's fine too. I should not have insinuated that optimization means not having fun, because I can see why it would be.

Anyway, would the idea of a merciful weapon with a secret word actually work? I don't see why it wouldn't. If so, I'd like to have the FB I'm playing get one as a nice backup plan.

ShneekeyTheLost

2013-09-29, 09:59 PM

Maybe so, but it's FUN. And believe it or not, some of us still play d&d to have fun.

I fail to see what is 'fun' about setting up possible table drama. Seriously, there's no point in the class, everything is completely reproducible without the possible TPK button.

It's like "Hey guys, I want to play this class. It doesn't make things die any faster, but it gives me a chance to kill all of your characters off... but it's totally not my fault because it's in the class description"

Immabozo

2013-09-30, 12:26 AM

Lilapop

2013-09-30, 03:09 AM

As far as I know it is an item enchantment from Comp Scoundrel, not a feat, but I am not sure.
Its a [Luck] feat from CScoundrel, page 77. Found that one already, but I'm kinda interested in an item with an effect like that.
Homebrewing it: Whats the usual price for an item that gives you a feat? 8k, like gloves of balanced hands?

Segev

2013-09-30, 07:58 AM

I've rarely seen the levels of damage outlined by Shneeky as evidence that the FB doesn't do qualitatively more damage than non-FB builds; when I have, it's been with FB in the build.

And there are purposes behind that excessive amount of damage; sometimes, you're facing things that you need to keep down for longer (regeneration is a pain when you lack the proper damage source), and I am still fond of doing so much damage to solid objects that you have an effective burrow speed.

littlebum2002

2013-09-30, 11:44 AM

I fail to see what is 'fun' about setting up possible table drama. Seriously, there's no point in the class, everything is completely reproducible without the possible TPK button.

It's like "Hey guys, I want to play this class. It doesn't make things die any faster, but it gives me a chance to kill all of your characters off... but it's totally not my fault because it's in the class description"

I think it's definitely necessary to have this character approved by the table before you play him. I wouldn't just up and take the prestige class without asking everyone first. But if you're starting a new character at high level, and everyone is OK with the extra challenge of protecting themselves from their ally AS WELL as the bad guys, then it can be a fun build.

But everyone has to understand that there is a definite possibility the game will end with their bodies lying under a suddenly not-mad Berserker trying to figure out how to use a Raise Dead scroll.

Wardog442

2013-10-02, 02:56 PM

I think it's definitely necessary to have this character approved by the table before you play him. I wouldn't just up and take the prestige class without asking everyone first. But if you're starting a new character at high level, and everyone is OK with the extra challenge of protecting themselves from their ally AS WELL as the bad guys, then it can be a fun build.

But everyone has to understand that there is a definite possibility the game will end with their bodies lying under a suddenly not-mad Berserker trying to figure out how to use a Raise Dead scroll.

I just got to lvl 8 last Saturday night when we finished playing. This following Saturday when we play I will have 1 Frenzy Charge. There are many many ways one can by pass the TPKs. I'm currently still working on my Will saves, i will probably have enough to upgrade my Cloak of Resistance from +2 to +4 with the money we've collected. We have a Dervish Dancer that built him quite tanky, he told me he was getting a feat that makes it so all PA do nothing against him or something along those lines. Secondly lets assume all else fails and we have a flying Wizard thats going to go invis next round(While im still in Frenzy) My turn I trow my weapon at him (assuring I dont have a secondary in my bag). Wallah! A full PA charge with an unarmed attack will do ****! And yes I am suppose to have a secondary non-magical weapon in my bags for the case that I need to DPS. Bu for now I can relly on this. Im currently LvL 8, at LvL 9 ill get Endurance so that at LvL 12 ill have Steadfast. I thank all for you're posts. Very helpful :)

Immabozo

2013-10-02, 03:43 PM

I just got to lvl 8 last Saturday night when we finished playing. This following Saturday when we play I will have 1 Frenzy Charge. There are many many ways one can by pass the TPKs. I'm currently still working on my Will saves, i will probably have enough to upgrade my Cloak of Resistance from +2 to +4 with the money we've collected. We have a Dervish Dancer that built him quite tanky, he told me he was getting a feat that makes it so all PA do nothing against him or something along those lines. Secondly lets assume all else fails and we have a flying Wizard thats going to go invis next round(While im still in Frenzy) My turn I trow my weapon at him (assuring I dont have a secondary in my bag). Wallah! A full PA charge with an unarmed attack will do ****! And yes I am suppose to have a secondary non-magical weapon in my bags for the case that I need to DPS. Bu for now I can relly on this. Im currently LvL 8, at LvL 9 ill get Endurance so that at LvL 12 ill have Steadfast. I thank all for you're posts. Very helpful :)

Why would you throw your weapon? That sounds like a sub par action and definitely not "fighting to the best of your ability. Perhaps get returning enchantment on your weapon and then flying enemies you can still (somewhat uselessly) attack.

But I am glad we helped

littlebum2002

2013-10-03, 10:50 AM

Why would you throw your weapon? That sounds like a sub par action and definitely not "fighting to the best of your ability. Perhaps get returning enchantment on your weapon and then flying enemies you can still (somewhat uselessly) attack.

But I am glad we helped

The idea was, IIRC, that his DM decided "changing from a melee weapon to a ranged weapon in the middle of battle to attack a flying enemy" was not fighting to the best of his ability (somehow). I then pointed out that, if there WAS a flying enemy, and you couldn't switch to a ranged weapon, the optimal (I.E. only) course of action would be to throw your weapon at it. Then, lacking a weapon, the next course of action would be to use your backup ranged weapon and start firing.

Of course, it doesn't make sense, but it's stemming from a DM ruling that didn't make sense either.

Immabozo

2013-10-03, 12:48 PM

The idea was, IIRC, that his DM decided "changing from a melee weapon to a ranged weapon in the middle of battle to attack a flying enemy" was not fighting to the best of his ability (somehow). I then pointed out that, if there WAS a flying enemy, and you couldn't switch to a ranged weapon, the optimal (I.E. only) course of action would be to throw your weapon at it. Then, lacking a weapon, the next course of action would be to use your backup ranged weapon and start firing.

Of course, it doesn't make sense, but it's stemming from a DM ruling that didn't make sense either.

using the turn to switch to your bow is better than throwing your weapon. I dont get it

Wardog442

2013-10-07, 12:34 AM

using the turn to switch to your bow is better than throwing your weapon. I dont get it

"During a frenzy, the frenzied berserker must attack those she perceives as foes to the best of her ability. Should she run out of enemies before her frenzy expires, her rampage continues. She must then attack the nearest creature (determine randomly if several potential foes are equidistant) and fi ght that opponent without regard to friendship, innocence, or health (the target’s or her own)" (Complete Warrior p. 37).

Following this rule (and how we see it in our story), I as a Frenzy Berserker can tell who my enemy is, even if it is flying. If assuming I do not have a range weapon, I just throw it to the flying target; I'm in a flying rage, pissed out of my mind, why would a raging maniac not throw stuff (for example his weapon) at the person he is pissed at? I see this fully logical. Then after Frenzy continues, the FB could act as under the influence of a blood lust, where I, as FB LOVES to fight, having an unquenchable thirst for battle. I then turn on my friendly units and think nothing of them as fighting opponents, kinda like Zaraki Kenpachi from Bleach (A maniac that fights, because he loves to fight, and **** everything else). Now assuming this goes as planned, I would then turn on my friendlies a lot quicker (sense I do not have a way to do range attacks) thus trying to kill friendlies the most effitient way to my disposition. Here I would go for grapples with my crazy STR bonuses. So this is still a problem, even if I dont do dmg, but atleast I avoid direct TPK's (Icould basically grapple some one while the flying mage kills us all, being the reason why we were wiped, but im still no a TPK :).
Of course this only works against flying non-invisible enemies.

littlebum2002

2013-10-07, 06:40 AM

LOL, I could totally imagine a DM getting mad bc you outsmarted him.

"I can't switch to a ranged weapon? OK, then, in a rage of fury, I throw my sword at him as hard as I can. Then, looking for another weapon, I find my Composite Longbow. I grab it and I..."

"In your fury, you throw it at him as well. Now what?"

Segev

2013-10-07, 07:14 AM

I believe the correct response to this...
"I can't switch to a ranged weapon? OK, then, in a rage of fury, I throw my sword at him as hard as I can. Then, looking for another weapon, I find my Composite Longbow. I grab it and I..."

"In your fury, you throw it at him as well. Now what?"

...is...

"In terror at my fury, he kills himself rather than face what I will do to him. If you can god-mode my PC, I can god-mode your NPCs; nothing in the rules says my character behaves as you dictated."

ShneekeyTheLost

2013-10-07, 10:31 AM

I believe the correct response to this...

...is...

"In terror at my fury, he kills himself rather than face what I will do to him. If you can god-mode my PC, I can god-mode your NPCs; nothing in the rules says my character behaves as you dictated."

Unfortunately for you, the rules in Frenzy do explicitly state precisely that.

One of my several problems with the class.

Immabozo

2013-10-07, 11:46 AM

"During a frenzy, the frenzied berserker must attack those she perceives as foes to the best of her ability. Should she run out of enemies before her frenzy expires, her rampage continues. She must then attack the nearest creature (determine randomly if several potential foes are equidistant) and fi ght that opponent without regard to friendship, innocence, or health (the target’s or her own)" (Complete Warrior p. 37).

Following this rule (and how we see it in our story), I as a Frenzy Berserker can tell who my enemy is, even if it is flying. If assuming I do not have a range weapon, I just throw it to the flying target; I'm in a flying rage, pissed out of my mind, why would a raging maniac not throw stuff (for example his weapon) at the person he is pissed at? I see this fully logical. Then after Frenzy continues, the FB could act as under the influence of a blood lust, where I, as FB LOVES to fight, having an unquenchable thirst for battle. I then turn on my friendly units and think nothing of them as fighting opponents, kinda like Zaraki Kenpachi from Bleach (A maniac that fights, because he loves to fight, and **** everything else). Now assuming this goes as planned, I would then turn on my friendlies a lot quicker (sense I do not have a way to do range attacks) thus trying to kill friendlies the most effitient way to my disposition. Here I would go for grapples with my crazy STR bonuses. So this is still a problem, even if I dont do dmg, but atleast I avoid direct TPK's (Icould basically grapple some one while the flying mage kills us all, being the reason why we were wiped, but im still no a TPK :).
Of course this only works against flying non-invisible enemies.

Well my post was in response to an older post specifying a ranged weapon.

How about just getting a ranged weapon?

Segev

2013-10-07, 03:13 PM

Unfortunately for you, the rules in Frenzy do explicitly state precisely that.

One of my several problems with the class.

Actually, no. Nowhere does the class state that the DM can dictate that you use a less-than-effective means to do harm to your enemies. That is, actually, something that your character is specifically barred from doing. He must attempt to do harm to his enemies to the best of his abilities.

The class does not remove capacity to use ranged weapons.

If the character has a bow in hand and arrows available for knocking and firing, it is indisputably more effective to knock and fire arrows at the target than it is to throw the bow at him.

Therefore, even if you choose to read some "DM gets to take over if you're not doing it right" clause into the rules (which I don't recall seeing, though I'm AFB so it might be there and I'm forgetting), it would be expressly against the rules for the DM to have your character throw the bow when your character could instead fire arrows with it.

So, no. "[T]he rules in Frenzy do" not "explicitly state precisely that." Quite the contrary.

littlebum2002

2013-10-07, 03:26 PM

The idea of the DM making you throw your ranged weapon was meant to be a joke. I should have written it in blue I guess.

But good point about the ranged weapon. Imagine what the DM would say if you failed the Will save to end your frenzy, and all you did was flail your sword about in the general direction of your party members who were 20 feet above you, instead of whipping out your bow. I doubt he/she would let that fly. So yeah, I think you should really explain to your DM that switching weapons should be allowed and even encouraged.

Kennisiou

2013-10-07, 03:40 PM

Honestly, dude, it sounds like your DM needs some rules refreshers. Many of the problems you're bringing up are not issues with Frenzied Berzerker (although that thing about attacking friends is true, remember you can make a will save every round to end your frenzy and there are lots of ways for you to make the will save easier to make). In fact, given the books you mentioned having access to, Frenzied Berzerker is probably the strongest prestige for your build, with maybe Bear Warrior beating it out.

My main suggestions are, one, if you are underestimating the power of intimidation/intimidating rage, don't. Intimidating rage is great. Intimidation is so powerful that as far as I'm concerned in campaigns where barbs have intimidating rage access Charisma is their fourth core stat (in campaigns where they can have imperious command as well, it's tied with dex in third, and if both that feat and BoeD's Righteous Wrath are allowed then I'm honestly more likely to prioritize Cha over Dex). Free demoralization is great. Also, don't underestimate the usefulness of destructive rage. Sundering is very powerful and can completely remove weapon-based enemies ability to be effective, and sundering a foe's weapon does indeed fall under "attacking those she perceives as foes to the best of her ability" because removing their ability to fight back is an incredibly effective attack. Seriously, they wouldn't require destructive rage as a prerequisite if the main feature of the class destroyed your ability to use it. You talked about both of those feats being "wasted" but as someone who's played barb pretty frequently let me tell you they're two of the feats I'm always the most excited to take.

Also, dude, don't be afraid to take barbarian levels. They're honestly a lot better than fighter levels since more rages is super helpful (except those first two when you really need the bonus feats).

If you're worried about will saves then iron will, wis+ gear, and save-boosting gear can all help. Or you can get gear that just outright makes you immune to charming/domination effects. While I know "just get this item" isn't always a campaign-appropriate answer because it's rare for DMs to just allow players access to random shops that just carry all the magic items they'll need, but with the massive variety of gear that can help you, you shouldn't have troubles finding something.

Edit: Okay, disregard most of what I said. Someone earlier mentioned something that pretty much perfectly solves the problem of the berserker killing their party and does it without costing a ton of money or requiring a lot of items. As was pointed out, there's nothing in the description that says the berserker can't choose to fail a save while frenzied. Just give your party's cleric/bard/healer/use magic devicer a wand of calm emotions. If the frenzy goes on after the encounter's over, they just wand the berserker to calm him and he fails his save on purpose. For a lot less than cost of most of the gear that's being suggested you could pretty easily just get a couple of these wands.

Ortesk

2013-10-07, 06:09 PM

I'm late to the party but i've played FB/pouncing barb a few times, and i've never hurt an alli. Have a wizard cast suggestion, hold person ect if you cant get your will save up. have someone spam grease spells. As for healing, you can not rely on a cleric (since your likely to cut them in half) buy a +1 wrathful healing greatsword. profit. I had one and was never below 80 percent hp, did i take some hella blows? yes sir, but doing 2200 damage (1100 is healing me) and taking 200 a round =win. pick up robillars gambit and combat reflexes, now just never die. FB is an amazing class, and haters who talk it down are same who say warblades are broken, ie melee cant do nice things. Also buy an intelligent sword which makes your blade merciful when enemies die if you really are scared. your beat them into next year, but there live (i think it costs like 10k to do so, afb so may be off)