Throwing and Melee (Pathfinder)

[Valdras]

So, a recent session went down in shambles because one player, who is "more experienced" than the rest of us, tried to throw a weapon from one hand, and attack with the other hand, using two weapon fighting.

Is this even possible? I've never seen anything that said that you could do this.

He also said he should be able to throw a dagger as part of the charge, and then stab with it when he finished the charge, is this possible? If so, does someone have a link to the d20pfsrd they can so me to back this up or deny it? My group is heavy on needing proof.

Also, is a Dagger a thrown weapon? and therefore can benefit from ranged feats, like say point blank shot, and rapid fire, again while two weapon fighting, and most likely needing quick draw...

Thanks for the reply either way :)

[Baroncognito]

So, a recent session went down in shambles because one player, who is "more experienced" than the rest of us, tried to throw a weapon from one hand, and attack with the other hand, using two weapon fighting.

Is this even possible? I've never seen anything that said that you could do this. There isn't really anything that says you can't do it, but there's also nothing that really says you can. There's a feat Stabbing Shot (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/stabbing-shot-combat)

I'd be inclined to say that it's not a problem, but unless he has point blank master with the thrown weapon, he would be provoking attacks of opportunity for doing so.


He also said he should be able to throw a dagger as part of the charge, and then stab with it when he finished the charge, is this possible? I don't believe it is. I've never seen a feat or class ability that gives you a ranged attack and then a charge action.


Also, is a Dagger a thrown weapon? and therefore can benefit from ranged feats, like say point blank shot, and rapid fire, again while two weapon fighting, and most likely needing quick draw...

Yes, a dagger is a thrown weapon. It can benefit from ranged feats, but you don't get the Point Blank Shot +1 attack and +1 damage while stabbing a guy in melee range. You have to throw them.

[Firest Kathon]

He also said he should be able to throw a dagger as part of the charge, and then stab with it when he finished the charge, is this possible? If so, does someone have a link to the d20pfsrd they can so me to back this up or deny it? My group is heavy on needing proof.

So he wants to throw a dagger and then stab with the same dagger? That would be hard to pull off - he throws away the dagger after all. As DM, I would require a steal (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Steal) combat maneuver to get back the dagger, so a standard action by default, in addition to the full-round action for the charge and the standard action for the stabbing.

If he has two daggers, it still wouldn't work. A charge is a full-round action, which ends in a melee attack:

Charging is a special full-round action that allows you to move up to twice your speed and attack during the action. [...] After moving, you may make a single melee attack.
So unless he has a way to throw the dagger as a swift (or free) action, he can't do it in the same round.

[SkarnerDaBest]

As DM, I would require a steal (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Steal) combat maneuver to get back the dagger, so a standard action by default, in addition to the full-round action for the charge and the standard action for the stabbing.

I agree with this option. Seems like the most sensible way to do things.

Daggers count as melee AND throwable. They have range increments and all the fun stuff that goes with them.

[Fax Celestis]

The charge thing is weird, and no.

However, he can combine melee and thrown attacks with TWF.

[Barstro]

Given how poorly thrown weapons seems to compare to melee or ranged, I have trouble coming up with reasons to not allow it. Other than the fact that it physically cannot be done, of course.

[Averis Vol]

If I'm reading what you're saying right, then the first case is a yes. It is a free action to pass a weapon from one hand to the other, so you can in theory twf with a single weapon. This really isn't over powered considering the bad state that twf is in, it's just a slight decrease in gold spent on weapons.

In 3.5 there's a feat called hurling charge. If you combined this with a whisperknives improved returning then yes, you could do this. Unfortunately this is pathfinder and that is a very specific build, so that one is a no go.

as to the third; yes. a dagger is a thrown weapon, but also as a specific case it is a melee weapon, so you can TWF throw with them.

[blueblade]

TWF rules explicitly mention 'a 2nd weapon'. I don't see how he could do this with the same weapon:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#twoWeaponFighting

If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon.

[Shyftir]

If I'm reading what you're saying right, then the first case is a yes. It is a free action to pass a weapon from one hand to the other, so you can in theory twf with a single weapon. This really isn't over powered considering the bad state that twf is in, it's just a slight decrease in gold spent on weapons.

In 3.5 there's a feat called hurling charge. If you combined this with a whisperknives improved returning then yes, you could do this. Unfortunately this is pathfinder and that is a very specific build, so that one is a no go.

as to the third; yes. a dagger is a thrown weapon, but also as a specific case it is a melee weapon, so you can TWF throw with them.


So if you have hurling charge you can throw your dagger then charge. When you reach your opponent you are no longer duel-weilding. So not only can he do it, (with the right feats.) He actually is more likely to hit his charge attack then if he doesn't do it that way.

Assuming pathfinder 3.5 transparency, and that he isn't trying to use the same weapon that he threw.

[Averis Vol]

So if you have hurling charge you can throw your dagger then charge. When you reach your opponent you are no longer duel-weilding. So not only can he do it, (with the right feats.) He actually is more likely to hit his charge attack then if he doesn't do it that way.

Assuming pathfinder 3.5 transparency, and that he isn't trying to use the same weapon that he threw.

I would allow it, though the text of the feat (it requires quickdraw, thats kind of important) says

"If you charge an opponent, you may make a ranged attack with a thrown weapon as well as a melee attack with another weapon that you draw during the charge. You may use this feat only if you have a throwing weapon in hand at the start of your turn. Both attacks must be made at the same opponent, and both receive the bonus on attack rolls for making a charge attack."

So you could say, have a dagger out, throw it at 10 feet, draw another dagger, then stab.

By strict RAW. Were it me I would allow for two daggers to be out, one gets thrown, then he passes the other dagger to his main hand to avoid TWF penalties.

[SkarnerDaBest]

I think Averis Vol has it down here. That sounds exactly right.

Your player wanting to use the same dagger he threw is jsut getting greedy in either a combat sense, or even on a flashy roleplaying sense, hell, maybe both. in order to do what he said he wanted to do, go with what Averis said above.

[Baroncognito]

Well, I'm kind of wrong. Apparently Hurling Charge (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian/rage-powers/paizo---rage-powers/hurling-charge-ex) is in pathfinder, but it's a rage power. And it doesn't allow you to make a ranged attack and then charge, it allows you to, mid-charge, make a ranged attack with a throwing weapon.

[Valdras]

Sorry if I wasn't clear, he was using two daggers, not just the one.

[Norfire]

Hate to bring this back from the dead but I want to add something for future searchers that come accross this.

In your scenario the player stabs with one dagger and throws the other. This is allowed but it also provokes an attack of opportunity, as throwing the dagger is a ranged attack.

As for the charge I agree that without proper feats it's pure greed and should not be allowed. A charge is a full round action requiring a minimum of 10ft movement and ends in a single attack. No attacks before or during the movement of the charge.

Another thing for any dm/gm/storyteller don't let the rules ruin a good game. Make a quick "fair" ruling on the actions and continue the game. Once the game is over look into the rules and find the answer. If you were right in your ruling show the player in private where the rule is. If your wrong announce in front of the table before next game that you were, state the correct rules and have a fun game.