stp erudite PO [3.5/3.0]

[Somensjev]

as the title says, i need some practical optimisation for a spell-to-power erudite, all 3.5 and 3rd edition books are allowed.

i want at least the first six levels of a build (if presenting a build) or just some general tips.

there's only two things certain about my character, no LA/RHD, taking leadership at 6th level

thank you in advance for any replies :smallbiggrin:

[Vaz]

Grey Elf Spell to Power Erudite 6

Feats; Linked Power, any others you can knock yourself out on.

[Silva Stormrage]

Ya you are going to need to give more info here. STP Erudite can do pretty much anything. Are you going as a minion master? Are you going for Battlefield control? Buffer? Debuffer? Blaster? All at once? What powerlevel are you looking for?

Are you sacrificing both of your starting feats so you can learn arcane spells of the same level as your max psionic powers? If so I would still suggest spending a feat to get a psicrystal back.

Some practical tips that should help. Learn spells from bards, often time they will be lower level and cost much less pp's. Hideous Laughter as a 1st level power is awesome, same with cure light wounds.

For your cohort get some character with means of switching spells a lot, such as a wizard/mage of the arcane order or a Warlock who can craft the items you need.

[bekeleven]

Spell to power erudite is TO. If you are optimizing it you are already not table-friendly.

If you're trying to PO it I can only hope your group is a Wizard/Incantatrix/Halruaan Elder, a Druid/Planar Shepard, and a DMM Archivist/RKV.

[OldTrees1]

Spell to power erudite is TO. If you are optimizing it you are already not table-friendly.

If you're trying to PO it I can only hope your group is a Wizard/Incantatrix/Halruaan Elder, a Druid/Planar Shepard, and a DMM Archivist/RKV.

Come now, by limiting the spells converted, it can be reduced from TO to PO.

[Vaz]

Not taking Leadership would make me feel a lot better about that.

Wu Jen/Wyrm Wizard cohorts can get very broken between Body Outside Body and Linked Power Psychic Reformation.

[DMVerdandi]

Use shadow evocation and conjuration spells later, for really great flexibility. instead of picking one or two spells from those schools, use those instead. In fact [shadow] spells kick unlimited amounts of butt. Keep them close to your heart.

As far as weapons and armor go, try to invest in some full plate perhaps, and maybe a semi-ranged weapon. As you get stronger, it's best to just use weapon spells.

At some time, pick up Persistent power. It is awesome to have powers running all day, and the flexibility of the pp system just makes it fantastic.

Work out with the DM that you want some stable sources to get magic from, and that you should be able to walk into guilds that have mages and get their spells for a cost, learn from fellow erudites in their own guild, or perhaps just do the research, but making spells scarce isn't cool...


Don't be a munchkin. All of the psionic/arcane cheese that is pullable? Don't do it. Stay away from cheese. Play smart, and play well, and you will be rewarded.
The best way to play the erudite is straight up.



Finally, try to get something done with the unique powers per day clause.
11 is a bit much, but 99x9 is crazy too. The best way to get out of it is to simply homebrew a solution. Make a feat that changes the rate to 1/level max 15. That will make you a solid contender without any real problems.

Just enough to not be stuck at 11, and not be overwhelmed with 20. 1/level if you want it to be easier.

Or have a bonus UPD feat which gives one at a time. That may be more balanced.

Finally, find a path.
Erudite can do the superhero thing so well, having a small set of go to powers, with one or two being random, just for the hell of it.
It will make life for the other players easier too. Sure you can batman/god better than a wizard ever could, BUT, that just makes you the guy who has the answer for everything.

Life could be so much more fulfilling as the erudite who is obsessed with geology, so he has earth based spells as his mainstay.
Or the illusionist/telepath who makes turns people into playthings with the power of his brain.

Doing one thing well, allows for others to do other things.

Hope that was good advice.

[Somensjev]

Ya you are going to need to give more info here. STP Erudite can do pretty much anything. Are you going as a minion master? Are you going for Battlefield control? Buffer? Debuffer? Blaster? All at once? What powerlevel are you looking for?

Are you sacrificing both of your starting feats so you can learn arcane spells of the same level as your max psionic powers? If so I would still suggest spending a feat to get a psicrystal back.

Some practical tips that should help. Learn spells from bards, often time they will be lower level and cost much less pp's. Hideous Laughter as a 1st level power is awesome, same with cure light wounds.

For your cohort get some character with means of switching spells a lot, such as a wizard/mage of the arcane order or a Warlock who can craft the items you need.


for my cohort i was considering either a wizard, psion/ardent, or a southern magician cleric i also want to boost my leadership score, so i can have followers, probably at least 2 level 3 or 4 followers (so i can get all three of those classes)

i dont really want to outshine my party, but my DM has a bad habit of sending overpowered monsters at us (not extremely overpowered, but more than we're supposed to handle)

i want healing/utility spells but i also want a few spells to deal damage/incapacitate enemies, just in case :smallwink:


edit: would it be worth it to start at a higher age? like venerable or something?

[Somensjev]

no more replies? (sorry for double posting)

[Psyren]

Your first priority is to sit with your DM and figure out how many Unique Powers per Day you get at each level. Find out which reading he's using.

Read a wizard handbook and a psion handbook and you're set.

Also, keep in mind that (a) when you manifest spells, they still have verbal and somatic components (so don't get tied up) and (b) you can ignore material components, even costly ones, simply by spending 2 more PP.

Be sure to grab the Soul Crystal power from MoI - that will not only let everyone in the party cast your buffs (even the personal range ones), but it will also let you access any powers in your repertoire without running out of UPD.

But yeah, as others have said, there is almost no way to optimize this thing without becoming a god in human flesh. That's what T0 means unfortunately. Psionic Artificer, Arcane Swordsage, Planar Shepherd, Illithid Savant etc. have the same problem.

[faircoin]

etc

What else is considered T0? Beholder mage? Wizard into incantatrix? Wizard into dweomerkeeper?

[Psyren]

What else is considered T0? Beholder mage? Wizard into incantatrix? Wizard into dweomerkeeper?

I'd say Wyrm Wizard is another, and maybe Tainted Scholar/Tainted Sorcerer.

Definitions vary (and some say there is no "T0" at all, just more T1s.) My own definition is either a base T0 class (StP Erudite) or a T1 class with a +2 or better PrC applied to it (Wizard into Incantatrix or Druid into PS for instance.)

[Somensjev]

Your first priority is to sit with your DM and figure out how many Unique Powers per Day you get at each level. Find out which reading he's using.

Read a wizard handbook and a psion handbook and you're set.

Also, keep in mind that (a) when you manifest spells, they still have verbal and somatic components (so don't get tied up) and (b) you can ignore material components, even costly ones, simply by spending 2 more PP.

Be sure to grab the Soul Crystal power from MoI - that will not only let everyone in the party cast your buffs (even the personal range ones), but it will also let you access any powers in your repertoire without running out of UPD.

But yeah, as others have said, there is almost no way to optimize this thing without becoming a god in human flesh. That's what T0 means unfortunately. Psionic Artificer, Arcane Swordsage, Planar Shepherd, Illithid Savant etc. have the same problem.

i honestly dont mind if i'm a god in human flesh, as long as i still seem human, hence being a support caster

any possible roleplay reasons to go down in power (such as avoiding certain schools, disciplines, domains)?

[Psyren]

i honestly dont mind if i'm a god in human flesh, as long as i still seem human, hence being a support caster

It's more an issue of whether your party/DM will mind than you.



any possible roleplay reasons to go down in power (such as avoiding certain schools, disciplines, domains)?

You can justify literally anything through RP so that's pretty much up to you. From a practical standpoint I would avoid Enchantment spells and rely on Telepathy powers instead - the ability to charm people without chanting gibberish first is pretty useful.

[Somensjev]

It's more an issue of whether your party/DM will mind than you.



You can justify literally anything through RP so that's pretty much up to you. From a practical standpoint I would avoid Enchantment spells and rely on Telepathy powers instead - the ability to charm people without chanting gibberish first is pretty useful.

my DM is fine with anything i can get from RAW :smalleek: , so there's no problem there

now, if i may ask another question, what might be some interesting roleplaying ways to nerf a grey elf stp erudite :smallwink:

[Story]

I'd say Wyrm Wizard is another, and maybe Tainted Scholar/Tainted Sorcerer.

Definitions vary (and some say there is no "T0" at all, just more T1s.) My own definition is either a base T0 class (StP Erudite) or a T1 class with a +2 or better PrC applied to it (Wizard into Incantatrix or Druid into PS for instance.)

Wyrm Wizard? Really? IIRC, all it does is let you grab an extra off list spell in exchange for losing a level. Even if you managed to get Miracle or something, you're still not much better off then a regular Wizard, and possible a lot worse.

[OldTrees1]

my DM is fine with anything i can get from RAW :smalleek: , so there's no problem there

now, if i may ask another question, what might be some interesting roleplaying ways to nerf a grey elf stp erudite :smallwink:

I once was forced to play an Oracle rather than a Dread Necromancer since the group moved from 3.5 to pathfinder. I decided I would restrict my spell selection to only necromancy themed spells.

So I would suggest you choose to forbid a few schools of magic (both in spells and in powers).

[Vaz]

Psionics has almost utter monopoly on Time control, with exceptions notable like Haste and Timestop, which Psionics gets faster or better access too, while tricks like the Save Game are due to uniqe Psionic powers.

Oddly enough, getting more actions (inherent via Time abuse) means you become more powerful, but if you are using your Anticipatory strike to aid the party rather than simply Anticipatory Strike/linked power syncronicty greater metamophosis into a Pit Fiend, you're going to do fine.

Do you have a theme, as yet?

Do you want to be an Evoker, Summoner, Enchanter, etc? Anything you don't want? Animate Dread Warrior, for example.

As an aside, Persistent Power is either 3rd party, or 3rd edition. Without the DM saying your Metamagic feats can apply to the powers you manifest, you're stumped.

@Story; wyrm wizard is one of the ways to break it. You have Psyref; choose a new divine spell to make Arcane. If you remember than ANY arcane spell can be crafted as a Divine Scroll, hence learned by an Archivist and then made a Divine Spell it can be learned as a wyrm wizard spell. This makes it trivially easy to gain every spell under your command

With Linked Metapower, you only need to manifest the first power, and the second one you choose yourself bypasses it. Hello linked metapower catfall. For +1pp, you get the ability to manifest ANY power/spell as a swift action, provided you have some way of gaining psionic focus (Metamorphic transfer into a choker+psionic meditation). Immediate action gives you linked power Catfall, which on your turn manifests into that lesser spirit binding to bring in an 8 HD Silveraith ANYTHING at ECL7.

Also bear in mind you bargain bin basement access to spells via Archivist>Wyrm Wizard. Ie 5th level equivalent Plane Shift.

[Silva Stormrage]

The problem with going for RAW straight power with STP Erudite is that it gets ludicrous really fast.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/spells/mentalPinnacle.htm gives you infinite pp's

Syncronchity + Linked Power gives you almost unbeatable action economy

And Psionics is great at time manipulation as Vaz stated.

Playing a STP Erudite to it's RAW maximum involves either reducing the rest of the party to cheerleaders or the DM needing a lot of fiat to make them more useful.

[OldTrees1]

@Silva Stormrage
Since the RAW maximum for a StP Erudite is TO, the OP is obviously asking how much do they need to hold back to merely be PO rather than TO.

Avoiding both Mental Pinnacle and Linked Power is a start.

[Silva Stormrage]

@Silva Stormrage
Since the RAW maximum for a StP Erudite is TO, the OP is obviously asking how much do they need to hold back to merely be PO rather than TO.

Avoiding both Mental Pinnacle and Linked Power is a start.

Oh I know I was just stating that since he said his dm is fine with anything he can get with RAW. I was pointing out the dangers of that line of logic (Being that you basically make yourself omnipotent).

[OldTrees1]

Oh I know I was just stating that since he said his dm is fine with anything he can get with RAW. I was pointing out the dangers of that line of logic (Being that you basically make yourself omnipotent).

Oh. I apologize, I misunderstood.

I must admit I am unfamiliar with the other excessively powerful options that StP has. Would you list some more things that would be wise to avoid?

[Psyren]

Oh. I apologize, I misunderstood.

I must admit I am unfamiliar with the other excessively powerful options that StP has. Would you list some more things that would be wise to avoid?

Check the psionic tricks handbook in my sig - it can do just about anything a psion can.

[bekeleven]

Do you have a theme, as yet?

Do you want to be an Evoker, Summoner, Enchanter, etc? Anything you don't want? Animate Dread Warrior, for example.

If you start with a theme you can take an OP class and dial it back.

If you start with saying "I want to play a T0 class, with a wizard cohort via leadership", you are starting at the wrong end of sensible.

[NaYoN]

Is there a way to get around the no 9th level spell/discipline power restriction?

Also, is it more useful to get a psycrystal or a mantle (magic) as your second level 1 feat?

[Vaz]

Alongside the Ardent, it is also the only one that is able to do the Psionic Save Game Trick without outside help; (Forced Dream power allows a Psicrystal to reset each turn to the start of it's turn; Imbue with Spell Ability allows you to give the Psicrystal the ability to use Status on party, have a Psionic Contingency Anticipatory Strike in effect on the Psicrystal set to go off when the Psicrystal returns on the readied Mass Time Hop sends the Psicrystal into the future 20 Hours. Complete your adventuring day, Psicrystal pops out of time Hop, and its antipatory strike lets it act straight away; it's first action is to contact the party via it's Status. If none occurs, it activates its reset switch to turn back the hands of time to 20hours. For the cost of 15xp).

X 10/Ardent 2/Cleric 3/Psychic Theurge 5 with Practised Manifester gets the Ardent there, but a StP Erudite can do it on it's own. Alternatively, Ardent 5/Ur-Priest 2/Psychic Theurge 8/X5 with Practised Manifester gets the Psion there, and still have power left over a 5 level PrC or your choice.

Theoretically, a Psion 15/Cleric 1/Psychic Theurge 4 can do it as well, but it requires more MAD; Int 19/Wis 14, and forces you into a particular build. The Ardent build allows you to combine it with many other Prestige Classes that don't progress Psionic Ability without too much loss.

@Above; Sanctum spell I think might be able to get you 9th level spell to power, I'm not sure. But what limit's that, I'm not sure where you're getting that from?

Depends what you're doing with your feats. If you have feats left over, then the Magic Mantle is available (although, why?), but I find the Psicrystal is just too useful. Share Power (Shapechange) say hello.

[NaYoN]

Depends what you're doing with your feats. If you have feats left over, then the Magic Mantle is available (although, why?), but I find the Psicrystal is just too useful. Share Power (Shapechange) say hello.

Sorry, I meant Favored Discipline, and you choose "spells" as your favored discipline (because StP lets you treat spells as a discipline), which lets you learn arcane spells of the highest level of power you can learn, not 1 lower.

[Emperor Tippy]

Alongside the Ardent, it is also the only one that is able to do the Psionic Save Game Trick without outside help; (Forced Dream power allows a Psicrystal to reset each turn to the start of it's turn; Imbue with Spell Ability allows you to give the Psicrystal the ability to use Status on party, have a Psionic Contingency Anticipatory Strike in effect on the Psicrystal set to go off when the Psicrystal returns on the readied Mass Time Hop sends the Psicrystal into the future 20 Hours. Complete your adventuring day, Psicrystal pops out of time Hop, and its antipatory strike lets it act straight away; it's first action is to contact the party via it's Status. If none occurs, it activates its reset switch to turn back the hands of time to 20hours. For the cost of 15xp).

X 10/Ardent 2/Cleric 3/Psychic Theurge 5 with Practised Manifester gets the Ardent there, but a StP Erudite can do it on it's own. Alternatively, Ardent 5/Ur-Priest 2/Psychic Theurge 8/X5 with Practised Manifester gets the Psion there, and still have power left over a 5 level PrC or your choice.

Theoretically, a Psion 15/Cleric 1/Psychic Theurge 4 can do it as well, but it requires more MAD; Int 19/Wis 14, and forces you into a particular build. The Ardent build allows you to combine it with many other Prestige Classes that don't progress Psionic Ability without too much loss.

@Above; Sanctum spell I think might be able to get you 9th level spell to power, I'm not sure. But what limit's that, I'm not sure where you're getting that from?

Depends what you're doing with your feats. If you have feats left over, then the Magic Mantle is available (although, why?), but I find the Psicrystal is just too useful. Share Power (Shapechange) say hello.

Anything that a spell to power erudite can do a regular psion can do better, thanks to abusing a spell to power erudite and a wyrm wizard.

[Psyren]

Is there a way to get around the no 9th level spell/discipline power restriction?

Yes, but it requires one of the following:

1) Epic levels
2) Knowing another StP Erudite (or Psion) who known the 9th-level spell-powers you're trying to learn.
3) Your DM letting you treat "magic" as a discipline.

[NaYoN]

Yes, but it requires one of the following:

1) Epic levels
2) Knowing another StP Erudite (or Psion) who known the 9th-level spell-powers you're trying to learn.
3) Your DM letting you treat "magic" as a discipline.

Let's say the DM is willing to let me treat magic as a discipline (the StP wording kind of alludes that anyway), in that case is taking that as a favored discipline worth losing the psicrystal? That's my biggest question, personally.

[Psyren]

Definitely. You can always get the crystal back later if you really feel you want it - Psicrystal Affinity doesn't have to be taken at first level, Erudites simply get one for free.

[NaYoN]

So if I choose Favored Discipline: Arcane Spells, can I learn an arcane spell for my "learn 2 powers when you level up", considering arcane spells now count as non-discipline powers for me; or do I still have to learn them from an outside source?

Also, 2nd level spells are 2nd level spells regardless of the class, right? So a 2nd level Bard spell can be learned like a 2nd level Wiz spell, even though Bard spells scale differently, right?

[Story]

If you're going to choose low level arcane spells, do it in style with Trapsmith.

[Psyren]

So if I choose Favored Discipline: Arcane Spells, can I learn an arcane spell for my "learn 2 powers when you level up", considering arcane spells now count as non-discipline powers for me; or do I still have to learn them from an outside source?

Yes, but let me restress - this reading requires a lot of favor from the DM to pull off.



Also, 2nd level spells are 2nd level spells regardless of the class, right? So a 2nd level Bard spell can be learned like a 2nd level Wiz spell, even though Bard spells scale differently, right?

Yes. StP Erudite specifically says "arcane spell," so Bard spells are fair game, and there's nothing special about the levels of those spells.

[NaYoN]

Yes, but let me restress - this reading requires a lot of favor from the DM to pull off.



I convinced the DM by having a background where I was in a Wizard cult and masquerading as one, thus I needed the ability to keep up appearances. My character didn't even know he wasn't an actual Wizard for a while.

[OldTrees1]

So if I choose Favored Discipline: Arcane Spells, can I learn an arcane spell for my "learn 2 powers when you level up", considering arcane spells now count as non-discipline powers for me; or do I still have to learn them from an outside source?

Also, 2nd level spells are 2nd level spells regardless of the class, right? So a 2nd level Bard spell can be learned like a 2nd level Wiz spell, even though Bard spells scale differently, right?

The alternate Erudite class feature Favored Discipline does not grant the ability to learn spells and is mutually exclusive with the alternate class feature Convert Spell to Power. (They both replace the same thing)

Sidenote: Some spells are different spell levels for different classes. Lesser Geas is a 4th level Wizard spell but a 3rd level Bard spell.

[Psyren]

The alternate Erudite class feature Favored Discipline does not grant the ability to learn spells and is mutually exclusive with the alternate class feature Convert Spell to Power. (They both replace the same thing)

Actually, they both replace "the bonus feat you get at 1st-level." But Erudites get two bonus feats at 1st-level.

Whether FD interacts with StP is a different issue. But you can, for instance, be a Favored Discipline Mantled Erudite.

[NaYoN]

Another question regarding erudites in general.

You learn two non-discipline powers per level, and you can do the psicraft check + 20 XP/level thing to learn discipline powers from others. How about learning more non-discipline powers? I can't seem to find a way to learn more non-discipline powers other than the 2 you get each level. Is this correct, or am I missing something?

[Psyren]

The method whereby they can learn from stones and the minds of others should apply to the general powers too. After all, there would be no point in specifying that the psicraft check requires the power to be "on his class list or on any of the select discipline lists" to prevent automatic failure if that wasn't the case.

But lets say you want to go for a very technical reading, and say that only discipline powers can be learned from external sources. Well, technically every power belongs to a discipline (even Psionic Wish), so they can still learn it. The only place in the entry the phrase "discipline-only" is mentioned is when setting the "1 level below maximum" prohibition.