[PF] Witches using hex while paralyzed

[kabreras]

All is in the title...

Hexes are SU and so dont require anything to activate but a trough, can a witch use her hexes while paralyzed by lets say a hold person ?

Just the trough of the paralyzed witch starting to flee flying with her hex is funny :p

[Frosty]

Well, a hex like evil eye you probably gotta look at someone. If you're paralyzed you can't turn your head...

[Keneth]

Su doesn't mean you don't need anything to active the ability. It's a standard action which may include any number of different motions depending on each respective ability. I'd say the vast majority of hexes are not "purely mental".

[Psyren]

Well, a hex like evil eye you probably gotta look at someone. If you're paralyzed you can't turn your head...

There's no facing in PF; if they're in range you get them. Many hexes (but not all of them) work fine while paralyzed.

[aeauseth]

There's no facing in PF; if they're in range you get them. Many hexes (but not all of them) work fine while paralyzed.

I'd have to agree. The SRD doesn't explicitly state so, but the default SU ability has no Verbal, Somatic, or Material component. It doesn't provoke AAO's or require concentration checks.

Cackle (Su) obviously doesn’t work because the hex specifically requires a verbal action.

Evil Eye (Su) should work just fine, although you might give players a 20-50% concealment bonus if they are actively trying to avoid her gaze. I'm thinking about the Witch lying face down on the ground for example. Or 100% concealment if you managed to blindfold her.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Not all hexes are Su. Most are, but some are Sp and some are Ex.

The Sp ones should definitely not work. The others would depend on if they need physical motion at all or not. Cackle shouldn't work, as you can't laugh. But Slumber should.

[Ravens_cry]

Not all hexes are Su. Most are, but some are Sp and some are Ex.

The Sp ones should definitely not work. The others would depend on if they need physical motion at all or not. Cackle shouldn't work, as you can't laugh. But Slumber should.
Hee hee, Slumber. So many things immune, but it steamrolls encounters when they are not. 'Snooze, you lose' taking to new heights of literalness!

[GreenZ]

Here is a list of not clear hexes and whether I would allow them to be used while paralyzed.

Aura of Purity - Yes, requires no movement and is simply a minutes per day passive.

Blight - No, as it not only takes a full round but also specifically requires that the 'the witch and her familiar must be in contact with the target'.

Cackle - Definitely no.

Beast of Ill-Omen - Yes, as it is pretty much a power the familiar uses rather than the witch herself.

Charm - No, as it mentions specifically 'beckoning and speaking soothing words.'

Disguise - No, as it says 'as if using Alter Self' which has verbal and semantic components.

Evil Eye - Yes, doesn't require movement nor speech.

Flight - No, all versions simply copy spells which require either verbal or semantic components.

Fortune - Yes.

Healing - No, as it acts like a cure spell which requires components.

Misfortune - Yes.

Peacebond - Yes.

Slumber - No, the hex is 'as per the sleep spell' which requires components.

Tongues - Yes.

Unnerve Beasts - Yes.

Ward - Yes.

Water Lung - Yes.

Agony - No, as it requires a 'quick incantation'.

Beast Eye - Yes.

Hag’s Eye - No, functions as 'Arcane Eye' which requires components.

Hoarfrost - Yes.

Ice Tomb - No, specifically because it is already powerful enough.

Infected Wounds - Yes.

Major Healing - No, functions as 'Cure Serious Wounds' which requires components.

Nightmares - Yes.

Retribution - Yes.

Speak in Dreams - No, functions as 'Dream' which requires components.

Vision - No, as it requires a touch.

Curse of Nonviolence - Yes.

Death Curse - Yes.

Dire Prophecy - Yes.

Eternal Slumber - No, as it requires a touch.

Forced Reincarnation - No, functions as 'Reincarnation' which requires components.

Lay to Rest - No, functions as 'Undeath to Death' which requires components.

Life Giver - No, functions as 'resurrection' which requires components and is touch.

Natural Disaster - No, functions as 'storm of vengeance' which requires components.

Ultimately, for me, it depends on if it acts like a spell or specifically requires movement in the description.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Su abilities do not have "components." When a hex says it works like a spell, it is to relate the effect the hex has to a piece of rules the reader might be familiar with already or can at least reference to see how it works / what happens. It doesn't mean, "slumber has verbal, somatic, and material components. If you lose your material component pouch and wish to Slumber, you're SOL."

Other than your "no, b/c it works like a spell" replies and Ice Tomb (which was just petty), your list sounds pretty good. I don't feel like going and checking each hex to be sure, but it sounds reasonable.

[Psyren]

Flight should work while paralyzed - you control yourself mentally after all, only winged creatures fall if paralyzed during flight. And even if you rule that they fall, the Feather Fall part of it is constantly active anyway.

[GreenZ]

StreamOfTheSky, may I turn you attention to the Lifegiver Grand Hex.


Life Giver (Su): Once per day the witch can, as a full round action, touch a dead creature and bring it back to life. This functions as resurrection, but it does not require a material component.

As the only hex to explicitly state that it doesn't need a material component; this implies, though not states, that all other SU abilities that 'act like' spells commonly have such components to them.



Psyren, 'At 1st level, the witch can use feather fall at will' it is in no way constantly active. And being paralyzed while using the minutes/level hex ability of flight would be similar to being paralyzed while under the effects of the Fly spell, the difference being that you cannot cast nor initially activate flight while paralyzed.

[avr]

It might be that they called out the life-giver hex in particular because the absence of an expensive material component is a major difference from the spell.

[lsfreak]

It might be that they called out the life-giver hex in particular because the absence of an expensive material component is a major difference from the spell.

Yea, it can safely be thought of as clarifying text. If in no way it's elsewhere stated that they have components, they do not, because Su abilities don't have components.

[TuggyNE]

As the only hex to explicitly state that it doesn't need a material component; this implies, though not states, that all other SU abilities that 'act like' spells commonly have such components to them.

As a general rule, the presence of potentially redundant clarifying text in no way proves the existence of a specific rule that that is an exception to; it's only if the text goes out of its way to explain that it is an exception that this should be assumed. (In this case, of course, it is an exception to the spell — but it's not an exception to the actual most specific general rule, which is that Su abilities do not require components.)

… Have I confused you enough yet?

[GreenZ]

avr

Undeath to Death, which Lay to Rest functions as, and Reincarnate, which Forced Reincarnation explicitly casts on a person, also both have costly material components but lack any text waiving their material components.



lsfreak and TuggyNE

I can understand what you mean, but where does it state that Su abilities that function as spells do not have the same components? All I can find on Su abilities is this paragraph. :smallconfused:


Supernatural abilities are magical and go away in an antimagic field but are not subject to spell resistance, counterspells, or to being dispelled by dispel magic. Using a supernatural ability is a standard action unless noted otherwise. Supernatural abilities may have a use limit or be usable at will, just like spell-like abilities. However, supernatural abilities do not provoke attacks of opportunity and never require Concentration checks. Unless otherwise noted, a supernatural ability has an effective caster level equal to the creature’s Hit Dice. The saving throw (if any) against a supernatural ability is: 10 + ½ the creature’s HD + the creature’s ability modifier (usually Charisma).



Please understand, I am not trying to be contradictory, this is simply how I always believed Pathfinder worked; abilities that function as spells take on every aspect of the spell unless stated otherwise, including their components.

[Karoht]

Please understand, I am not trying to be contradictory, this is simply how I always believed Pathfinder worked; abilities that function as spells take on every aspect of the spell unless stated otherwise, including their components.
Because if it worked that way, Genies would have to pay for their wishes, as the component is money.

[GreenZ]

Genies have Spell-like abilities, including Wish; these are not Supernatural abilities that function as spells; the rules specifically state that Spell-like abilities do not have components.


Usually, a spell-like ability works just like the spell of that name. A spell-like ability has no verbal, somatic, or material component, nor does it require a focus. The user activates it mentally. Armor never affects a spell-like ability's use, even if the ability resembles an arcane spell with a somatic component.

There is no such clause for Supernatural abilities that function as a spell.

[Karoht]

Genies have Spell-like abilities, including Wish; these are not Supernatural abilities that function as spells; the rules specifically state that Spell-like abilities do not have components.

There is no such clause for Supernatural abilities that function as a spell.So there isn't.
Wow. That seems a bit odd.

[Ravens_cry]

As a general rule, the presence of potentially redundant clarifying text in no way proves the existence of a specific rule that that is an exception to; it's only if the text goes out of its way to explain that it is an exception that this should be assumed. (In this case, of course, it is an exception to the spell — but it's not an exception to the actual most specific general rule, which is that Su abilities do not require components.)

… Have I confused you enough yet?

Specific beats general, this is how D&D works.

[Psyren]

Okay, so I did look at this, and it's definitely something I'd like to see cleared up in the FAQ, but from what I can determine supernatural abilities in PF are not automatically componentless. Instead, the PRD merely says this:


The supernatural ability's description includes information on how it is used and its effects.

Which seems to be kicking it back to the DM's court to decide.

Now, I can see why they might have gone this route - some supernatural abilities should involve making sounds (e.g. Cackle) and therefore are not purely mental. And some require touching the target, which would imply a somatic component.

That doesn't mean though that I think hexes need the same components as a spell in all cases, nor do I think it means they need material components.

But this one could definitely use some dev attention.

[lsfreak]

For the record, it's listed as traits of Su abilities both under Pact Magic and Shadow Magic in ToM that Su abilities do not have components. Specifically, the ToM chart clarifies that it SUPERCEDES the DMG material, and that Su abilities do not have somatic components. Though it does fail to mention material components. EDIT: While this is 3.5, they use the same description for Su abilities at base.

My thought is that this is poor editing; afaik there's no - or very precious few - Su abilities in the Core 3.5 rules that reference spells. There was no need to originally make Su lack components in the same manner as SLAs because they used a completely different ruleset; Su were "SLA but MORE." And then things got royally screwed once Su abilities references spells directly came about.

[avr]

Undeath to Death, which Lay to Rest functions as, and Reincarnate, which Forced Reincarnation explicitly casts on a person, also both have costly material components but lack any text waiving their material components.

The Lay to Rest hex which calls Undeath to Death is a spell-like ability, not Su. Forced Reincarnation calls Reincarnate in an odd fashion -

The witch causes a creature within 30 feet to die and be immediately reincarnated into a new body. A Will save negates this effect. Those that fail are slain and immediately brought back to life with the spell reincarnate.
which to me does not imply that the witch actually casts reincarnate or similar.

But yeah, PF doesn't seem to have explicit rules on components used in Su abilities. That being so I'd default to 3.5 which does have rules and says that such abilities don't.