Practiced Manifester vs Practiced Spellcaster

[kirerellim]

Ok, this is kinda a complicated question, so I'll try and explain as best I can.

These two feats do a very similar thing. One increases spellcaster level by four, the other manifester level, neither above the hitdice. This makes both of these feats useful for gish characters. /But/ I noticed something interesting about the Practiced Manifester and was wondering if I am correct. If a character was 4 levels fighter, 4 levels sorcerer, and they took practiced spellcaster, their spells would hit harder, but they would gain spells as usual, in other words the highest spell they would learn at next level would be 3. For most manafester classes this is true as well. But I noticed something on Ardent class.

For example, an ardent who attains 5th level can learn any power from one of her mantles that costs 5 power points or less to manifest; she cannot learn a power from a mantle that costs more than 5 power points to manifest until she attains a level capable of manifesting a power with that cost.

I could be wrong, but does that mean that, say, a character with four levels in fighter and four in Ardent that took Practiced Manifester, when hitting level nine, would be able to manifest abilities that took 9 power points cause he or she would count as a manfester of ninth level?

[Segev]

That is what the RAW say. It is commonly accepted as usable, too, though some DMs may house rule it away. I believe we've been told by writers that the RAI was for it to be just like any other psionic class, but they screwed up editing and never bothered with errata. Absent said errata, though, that is the rule as written. If your DM doesn't object, go for it!

[Chronos]

Another difference is that, even on psions and wilders, Practiced Manifester will give you additional power points, since the points from a high ability score depend on your manifester level.

And psionics tends to be more dependent on manifester level than spells are on caster level, anyway, due to augmentation.

[Vaz]

No, it doesn't increase PP/day sadly. It allows as you said increased investiture, however.

Psyren, Segev and myself hammered out the argument that Overchannel could possibly work in a similar manner; that way an ECL 15 Ardent 10 (X5/Ard 10) could theoretically gain 9th level equivalent powers (17pp powers). It basically boiled down "what's the order of operation, oh there isn't any"; if you can apply Overchannel before the Manifestation, then you gain the +3 ML that allows it, and hence can learn such a power at ECL15.

However, the wording didn't fully support that wording, but it might be worth trying to "sneak" it in; especially if you try recommending it to your DM as a Fast Progression PrC type thing. ECL6 entry, requiring overchannel as the prerequisite. Throw on Linked Power and Metapower as bonus feats, alongside Dominant Mantle and Substitute Mantles ACF, and it's a decent 10 level PrC, even if without Expanded Knowledge it only knows 11 powers.

[Macrovore]

It would increase PP/day from a high ability score, because that's based on manifester level.

[Piggy Knowles]

No, it doesn't increase PP/day sadly. It allows as you said increased investiture, however.

Psyren, Segev and myself hammered out the argument that Overchannel could possibly work in a similar manner; that way an ECL 15 Ardent 10 (X5/Ard 10) could theoretically gain 9th level equivalent powers (17pp powers). It basically boiled down "what's the order of operation, oh there isn't any"; if you can apply Overchannel before the Manifestation, then you gain the +3 ML that allows it, and hence can learn such a power at ECL15.

However, the wording didn't fully support that wording, but it might be worth trying to "sneak" it in; especially if you try recommending it to your DM as a Fast Progression PrC type thing. ECL6 entry, requiring overchannel as the prerequisite. Throw on Linked Power and Metapower as bonus feats, alongside Dominant Mantle and Substitute Mantles ACF, and it's a decent 10 level PrC, even if without Expanded Knowledge it only knows 11 powers.

I've heard the Overchannel argument, and I don't buy it. Overchannel says you can increase your ML while manifesting a power; it doesn't say you can manifest higher level powers than you currently have access to. Ardent's power selection mechanic allows you to select any power you can manifest, so PM will apply, as your improved ML allows you to manifest higher level powers. But Overchannel just lets you raise your ML for a particular power. It doesn't overall increaee your ML, so ardent power selection won't be affected.

[Vaz]

My bad, i'd remembered Powers Known as Power Points. Darn sleepdeprived addledness.


Edit; after the discussion, I follow your reading too, Piggy. It is one of those 'Extra Spell' things though, some allow, some don't, and if you don't ask, well...

[Piggy Knowles]

True, especially since Overchannel is a no-brainer choice for most dedicated manifesters.

[kirerellim]

Cool that's what I though, should be able to makes mean gish with psionics then lol

[Segev]

I've heard the Overchannel argument, and I don't buy it. Overchannel says you can increase your ML while manifesting a power; it doesn't say you can manifest higher level powers than you currently have access to. Ardent's power selection mechanic allows you to select any power you can manifest, so PM will apply, as your improved ML allows you to manifest higher level powers. But Overchannel just lets you raise your ML for a particular power. It doesn't overall increaee your ML, so ardent power selection won't be affected.

Except that it increases your ML while manifesting that power. You can manifest a power if you can spend the pp to meet its costs.

Arguing any other way basically says that Ardents can't manifest a power until they know it, and can't know a power until they can manifest it, creating a Catch-22 that never lets them learn powers at all.

It works thusly: I'm an Ardent 2/Fighter 4 with Overchannel and Practiced Manifester. My ML without Overchannel is 6. I can Overchannel to bump my ML up to 7. With an ML of 7, I can manifest powers that cost up to 7 pp, or 4th level powers.

It doesn't matter whether I can "normally" spend 7pp in a round; when I Overchannel, I can. Therefore, I can manifest a power that costs 7pp. Therefore, I can, as an Ardent, learn a 4th level power.

There's no "you have to manifest the power before your ML bumps up" order of operations. While manifesting it with Overchannel, I have an ML of 7 and can manifest it. I can manifest it just as well as I can manifest a power of 3rd level. It just costs me hp on top of the pp.

[Piggy Knowles]

Well, no. Because it specifically says that the boost is just while manifesting a power.

Overchannel doesn't boost your overall ML. It specifically says that while you are manifesting a power (that you already know), you can boost your ML.

If I'm a sixth-level ardent with Overchannel, I am NOT capable of manifesting fourth-level powers, because I can only use Overchannel while manifesting one of my existing powers (none of which are fourth level). The requirement of ardent's power selection isn't "capable of manifesting a power augmented to cost X pp," it's that you have to be capable of manifesting a power of that level.

[rot42]

Even if your table plays Ardents like all the other manifesting classes, you still get on time access to the augments that work like spell chains (e.g. Dominate Monster) to ease the pain of multiclassing.

[Psyren]

Except that it increases your ML while manifesting that power. You can manifest a power if you can spend the pp to meet its costs.

We danced this dance before, you and I (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15851464) :smalltongue:

I said it there and I'll say it here - you can't manifest while manifesting a power, so the increase from Overchannel doesn't help Ardents learn anything. They're either not Overchanneling, so their ML is lower, or they are, but they still aren't able to manifest whatever it is they're trying to learn because they're manifesting something different at that time.

[Chronos]

I said it there and I'll say it here - you can't manifest while manifesting a power, so the increase from Overchannel doesn't help Ardents learn anything.
Yo dawg, we heard you like manifesting.

[Segev]

We have, indeed, Psyren. I'll just repeat for those who've missed it before: You don't need to "manifest while manifesting."

While you're manifesting your level 4 power, you Overchannel, and are ML 7.

If you say "you can only do this with existing powers," then you can't learn powers at all as an Ardent: They either can learn powers they could manifest if they knew them, or they have to already know the power before they can learn it.

All it asks is, "Could you manifest the power if you knew it?" If so, you can learn it. Since, if you knew a level 4 power, you could Overchannel as you manifest it in order to be of sufficient ML to manifest it, you could manifest it if you knew it. Therefore, you can learn it as an Ardent.


And yeah, there's no point rehashing it. I just wanted to make the argument as clear as I can. If people disagree, so be it. I just like it if they disagree with what I'm actually saying rather than something other than what I've said.

[Psyren]

If you say "you can only do this with existing powers," then you can't learn powers at all as an Ardent: They either can learn powers they could manifest if they knew them, or they have to already know the power before they can learn it.

This is wrong simply due to the leveling sequence in PHB 58. "Choose a class" is step 1 - That's when you go from Ardent 6 to 7 for example, and your ML increases. That then makes you legal to pick a 4th-level power at Step 8, "Select Spells." And since you aren't manifesting anything else at the time, you're perfectly legal to pick a new power since you are able to manifest it.

There; now I'm free not to rehash anything more.

[Vaz]

I thought you gained level up bonus LAST, after feats, skills, etc?

Just want to reiterate that i follo Psyrens reading; you cannot manifest a 7pp power without having a manifester level of 7 (actually, if you remove the example text, that limitation disappears, IIRC there is no wording in Ardents entry limiting them to spending no more than their ML in PP: ie if you have enough pp, ignoring that Example means you can get 17pp powers by level 4ish). You can only overchannel when you manifest a power.

read it like a series of checks

ie;
7pp power requires ML7 to manifest. Does ardent have ML7? No, unless Overchanneling.
Overchannel occurs when manifesting a power only.
You can only manifest a power provided you can spend enough pp on it.

As an order of operation, you manifest first then you can turn overchannel on. Hence a ML of 6 limits you to spending 6pp or less to manifest a power, which means that you don't get the ability to manifest 7pp powers.

[Eldest]

I thought you gained level up bonus LAST, after feats, skills, etc?

Just want to reiterate that i follo Psyrens reading; you cannot manifest a 7pp power without having a manifester level of 7 (actually, if you remove the example text, that limitation disappears, IIRC there is no wording in Ardents entry limiting them to spending no more than their ML in PP: ie if you have enough pp, ignoring that Example means you can get 17pp powers by level 4ish). You can only overchannel when you manifest a power.

read it like a series of checks

ie;
7pp power requires ML7 to manifest. Does ardent have ML7? No, unless Overchanneling.
Overchannel occurs when manifesting a power only.
You can only manifest a power provided you can spend enough pp on it.

As an order of operation, you manifest first then you can turn overchannel on. Hence a ML of 6 limits you to spending 6pp or less to manifest a power, which means that you don't get the ability to manifest 7pp powers.

In regards to the leveling up, taking your skills before you took your class wouldn't work, since you'd have to have the class to figure out what was a class skill and what wasn't. Same with feats: you would want to take Weapon Supremacy on a Fighter 18, correct? Well, if you take the feat first, then you aren't actually a Fighter 18 yes, you're a Fighter 17 who hasn't decided what their next level will be. So no Weapon Supremacy for you.

[mattie_p]

In regards to the leveling up, taking your skills before you took your class wouldn't work, since you'd have to have the class to figure out what was a class skill and what wasn't. Same with feats: you would want to take Weapon Supremacy on a Fighter 18, correct? Well, if you take the feat first, then you aren't actually a Fighter 18 yes, you're a Fighter 17 who hasn't decided what their next level will be. So no Weapon Supremacy for you.

The first step in gaining a level is to select a class. As soon as you gain enoughe xperience to be level 18, and you choose a level of fighter, you are a level 18 fighter. You can legally select weapon supremacy with your feat at that level.

[Psyren]

The first step in gaining a level is to select a class. As soon as you gain enoughe xperience to be level 18, and you choose a level of fighter, you are a level 18 fighter. You can legally select weapon supremacy with your feat at that level.

That's what Eldest was saying; Vaz thought you gained the level last.

[mattie_p]

That's what Eldest was saying; Vaz thought you gained the level last.

Ah, my bad. I didn't get the hypothetical tone. Call it a reading fail.

[Vaz]

Nope. I had it correct.

You gain Class Features last. 58-59 PHB.

A) Attain a new level;
1- Choose Class (Ardent 6)
2- Base Attack Bonus
3- Base Save Bonus
4- Ability Score if multiple of 4
5- Hit Points
6- Skill Points
7- Feats (Overchannel)
8- Spells (presuming this means Powers as well, there is no mention of levelling up that I could find in the XPH)
9- Class Features (+1 Manifester Level).

Having said that, like multiclass penalties, this ruling tends to get ignored. However, like I said, by strict RAW, ignoring the example (as it's just an example, and going by previous examples, many are incorrect, like the infamous Walker in the Waste), an Ardent can manifest ANY power they know because they're not limited to Manifester Level like the Psion, PsyWar, Lurk, Divine Mind or Erudite are.

[Segev]

Where does it say they're not limited to the manifester level cap on how many pp they can spend on a power?

[Psyren]

Nope. I had it correct.

9- Class Features (+1 Manifester Level).

No, you still don't. Manifester level is not an Ardent class feature, it's a general rule.


Manifester Level
The variables of a power’s effect often depend on its manifester level, which is equal to your psionic class level.

The moment you choose Ardent (step 1) your ML increases. It does not happen at step 9.

[Vaz]

Where does it say they're not limited to the manifester level cap on how many pp they can spend on a power?

If you read the wording on the Psion etc it states they're limited to ML for max PP expenditure. The only mention of it in Ardent is the example. I couldn't find mention of it anywhere else.

As to Psyren, cheers! Got slightly worried then.

[Fax Celestis]

We danced this dance before, you and I (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15851464) :smalltongue:

I said it there and I'll say it here - you can't manifest while manifesting a power, so the increase from Overchannel doesn't help Ardents learn anything. They're either not Overchanneling, so their ML is lower, or they are, but they still aren't able to manifest whatever it is they're trying to learn because they're manifesting something different at that time.

Actually, you can, but the interrupting power needs to be an immediate action.

[Segev]

If you read the wording on the Psion etc it states they're limited to ML for max PP expenditure. The only mention of it in Ardent is the example. I couldn't find mention of it anywhere else.

As to Psyren, cheers! Got slightly worried then.

I could have sworn it was mentioned in generic manifestation rules for any power-user, too.

[Vaz]

I couldn't find it in a cursory search. I didn't really have the time to dedicate to it unfortunately.

[olentu]

I couldn't find it in a cursory search. I didn't really have the time to dedicate to it unfortunately.

Is that the can not spend more PP then your manifester level restriction. I believe that is noted on page 41 of the expanded psionics handbook. It is also mentioned to some degree in a few other places but I am too lazy to track them all down.

[mattie_p]

It is in the SRD as well.


Manifester Level (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#manifesterLevel)
The variables of a power’s effect often depend on its manifester level, which is equal to your psionic class level. A power that can be augmented for additional effect is also limited by your manifester level (you can’t spend more power points on a power than your manifester level).

[Vaz]

Phooey :(.

Thought i'd just found myself a goshdarned new exploit.