Free Floating Fighter Feats

[MukkTB]

What tier would a fighter be if every morning he got to reassign his bonus class feats? Lets assume he had to make a legal build, and that if he left one unassigned he could later in the day spend 15 minutes to pick one.

I'm thinking this is a strong tier 3, but I don't know how powerful this would actually be.

[DR27]

JaronK did that here. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1977.0)


The Adaptive Feats are something I really like for Fighters, just because they're supposed to be feat strong and, well, adaptable. And they're a strong source of power, since you can pull off so many tricks with them and have exactly what you need. I was actually thinking about giving Fighters an initiator level equal to their class level so they could use Adaptive Feats (or just bonus feats) to get high level manuevers... once per encounter.

It's a pretty cool concept, unsure if it's actually T3 though.

[Emperor Tippy]

A fighter who could reselect all of his feats on the fly and at will might break into tier 3 but is still probably tier 4.

[Flickerdart]

The thing with a given fighter is that with all their feats all they can do is hit things. Given the opportunity to change those feats daily would allow the fighter to hit things in different ways but it would not fundamentally change the character's role or scope of contribution. Unlike a wizard, who can prepare spells daily as well but might prepare, say, teleport, dominate person, and fireball, a fighter is limited to basically one thing.

To add to the pile of issues, prerequisites are a thing. The fighter can't grab a whole bunch of juicy style or tactical feats at a time, because the ridiculous numbers of prerequisites and limits on weapons used mean he's limited to basically one or two.

Giving the fighter some sort of Arsenal ability that allowed him to swap his weapon's everything at a moment's notice ("A dragon? Good thing I got my trusty bow right here! When it lands, I will draw my sword and strike it down!") and assign his feat slots based on the weapon he is currently wielding might get him to tier 3, but just barely, because he still has no skills or any non-combat stuff.

[TheIronGolem]

What tier would a fighter be if every morning he got to reassign his bonus class feats? Lets assume he had to make a legal build, and that if he left one unassigned he could later in the day spend 15 minutes to pick one.

I'm thinking this is a strong tier 3, but I don't know how powerful this would actually be.

I did this for my Pathfinder game a while back. It helped. I don't think it puts the fighter anywhere close to Tier 3, but it does at least give newer players (who tend to gravitate to Fighter for its simplicity) an easy on-the-fly respec as they start to figure out what does and doesn't work for them.

I think it's a pretty good thematic fit, too, since the Fighter is supposed to be the general man-at-arms who can kill you with anything from a broadsword to a paperclip.

They could still use a special-ability menu, though. Edit: Also, lots of feats need to be collapsed together and/or have silly prerequisites removed (Combat Expertise, I am looking sternly in your direction...)

[lsfreak]

If a fighter was not limited to fighter feats, he'd be T3. As it is, he's pretty much stuck to T4 for the reasons Flickerdart laid out. With all feats, it's going to be Incarnum feats, Binder feats, Hidden Talent, and similar that are pushing it to T3 territory; basically, if you can leech off a bunch of T3 classes as a class feature, it does wonders to push you into T3 territory.

[Flickerdart]

If a fighter was not limited to fighter feats, he'd be T3. As it is, he's pretty much stuck to T4 for the reasons Flickerdart laid out. With all feats, it's going to be Incarnum feats, Binder feats, Hidden Talent, and similar that are pushing it to T3 territory; basically, if you can leech off a bunch of T3 classes as a class feature, it does wonders to push you into T3 territory.
Eh...maybe, maybe not. T3s are there not only because of versatility, but also power, and the feat-accessible portions of Incarnum, Initiating, Psionics, and Binding tend to be fairly light on the power side of things because you don't get "native" perks like chakras, refreshing, large PP pools for augmentation, and all the best vestige abilities.

[tyckspoon]

Eh...maybe, maybe not. T3s are there not only because of versatility, but also power, and the feat-accessible portions of Incarnum, ... chakras,

Actually if you have enough feats you can do a pretty good impression of a meldshaping class (assuming you accept that taking an Open X Chakra feat also grants you a bind slot to use that chakra, because it's a fairly useless feat otherwise.) You get a lot less Essentia and your access to the chakra binds is slower, but you can get enough to imitate most of the really noteworthy optimization standards of an Incarnate.

[prufock]

I also did that here (http://dndfulcrum.wikispaces.com/Fighter), so it's a common idea for a fix. With the other class features I piled onto it, I think it might hit tier 3 (that was my goal, anyway). I also felt it important to expand the fighter's feat list, rewriting some of the ACFs (Dungeoncrasher, Counterattack, etc) into fighter-only feats. Now that I look at it, Hit-and-Run Tactics should also have just been a fighter-only feat, without the armor restriction.

[Jeff the Green]

An interesting idea I had is that you can assign a feat as an immediate action, but once you do so it's fixed until you rest. So do you assign all your feats in the morning to have full use for them throughout the day? Leave them all open and assign them as needed? Assign a few in the morning (Power Attack, Leap Attack, Shock Trooper) and leave a few for whatever power you might need during the day?

Still T4 for fighter feats (and probably you'd assign them all in the morning anyway) and maybe T3 for everything. For the latter, you'd also want some kind of ability to rapidly shape soulmelds/ready maneuvers/bind vestiges.

[Red Fel]

Being able to switch out the feats themselves is pretty powerful, though. Contrast that with the Warblade class feature Weapon Aptitude, which won't let you swap out the feats themselves, but lets you swap out their focus (e.g. Weapon Focus (Longsword) for Weapon Focus (Greataxe)), provided that you have the weapon in question, and an hour to train per feat, and that all prerequisite feats be similarly retrained at the same time.

I think the flexibility would be nice, but given the previous example, I think retraining on the fly like that is... well, dangerously close to OP, which is a shame, because Melee Should Have Nice Things.

[TheIronGolem]

Being able to switch out the feats themselves is pretty powerful, though. Contrast that with the Warblade class feature Weapon Aptitude, which won't let you swap out the feats themselves, but lets you swap out their focus (e.g. Weapon Focus (Longsword) for Weapon Focus (Greataxe)), provided that you have the weapon in question, and an hour to train per feat, and that all prerequisite feats be similarly retrained at the same time.

I think the flexibility would be nice, but given the previous example, I think retraining on the fly like that is... well, dangerously close to OP, which is a shame, because Melee Should Have Nice Things.

I don't think you're comparing apples to apples here. Warblades get maneuvers galore and Fighters get maneuvers ga-nothin'.

[Flickerdart]

Being able to switch out the feats themselves is pretty powerful, though...
I think the flexibility would be nice, but given the previous example, I think retraining on the fly like that is... well, dangerously close to OP, which is a shame, because Melee Should Have Nice Things.
Being able to switch out useful feats for other useful feats is powerful. Given that the best feats (metas, Natural Spell, Font of Inspiration) support and augment class features, the fighter is still out of luck.

[Gnaeus]

I feel like we had this discussion before.

I think a fighter who can switch out feats more or less at will is a T3. Mostly on the strength of Martial Study/Martial Stance (Then we argued for a couple of pages about whether you can retrain martial study and whether it can only give the same maneuver every time, so YMMV). If you essentially have all maneuvers at an initiator level of half your class level, you are in some ways better off than an actual initiator class.

If ToB is not allowed, or only allowed under retraining restrictions, or only one shift per day in the AM, its pretty much Tier 4. Not even really a strong tier 4. Fighter feats have very, very little by way of out of combat utility, and unless you are switching your gear and stats as well, most days you will have the same build, so it isn't really much better than just a fighter.



I think the flexibility would be nice, but given the previous example, I think retraining on the fly like that is... well, dangerously close to OP, which is a shame, because Melee Should Have Nice Things.

Not really even close. What you wind up is a fighter who can use any L1 maneuver at F2, any L2 maneuver at F6, and any L3 maneuver at F10, while at the same time being good at melee, combat maneuvers, and archery, whichever he is using at the time. He is not clearly superior at many levels to a Warblade (who has less maneuvers but higher level, as well as skill points and class features), and is clearly inferior to any well built T1-2 caster.

[Red Fel]

Fair points. Allow me to clarify. I should not have said it would make Fighter "dangerously close to OP," because, frankly, nothing does. It would make Fighter dangerously close to OP by current Fighter standards, while only slightly elevating him relative to other classes. I agree it would give him much-needed flexibility, but it would also substantially change how the class is played.

I also acknowledge that the comparison with Warblade is not an apt one, because, in effect, maneuvers function as mini-feats that can be switched out with preparation. However, the class feature is the closest thing I could find to being able to switch out feats, apart from the not-uncommon house rule that people can retrain their feats over a several month period between sessions.

I think the focus, however, remains the same: Fighters, unlike most other classes, are highly dependent on feats to determine what they can do. Writing those decisions in stone can cripple a fighter if done badly, but this helps define the character's abilities. I don't think that swapping out Fighter feats would be a bad thing, but I do think it would change the class dramatically.

And really, if you want to do that, you could just play a martial adept.:smallcool:

[Helcack]

My friends and I homebrewed that fighters get 1 feat/level levels 1-10 then like normal after that and we gave them BAB equal to 1+1/3 level rounded down so at level 3 they had 4 BAB and level 6 they had 8 etc. etc. It actually ended up making it so people played fighters and that the fighters in the party were powerful enough to be tier 3(in my opinion at least)

[Flickerdart]

My friends and I homebrewed that fighters get 1 feat/level levels 1-10 then like normal after that and we gave them BAB equal to 1+1/3 level rounded down so at level 3 they had 4 BAB and level 6 they had 8 etc. etc. It actually ended up making it so people played fighters and that the fighters in the party were powerful enough to be tier 3(in my opinion at least)
The fighter's problem isn't that he doesn't have enough feats, nor is it that he can't hit things well enough. His problem is that feats and hitting is all he's got, and that's why he's teetering between T4 and T5.

[3Power]

The solution to non magic classes has always been magic. Give the fighter a sword that let's him slash out a wave of fire in a 30 ft cone 5/day with damage comparable to fireball, boots that let him fly at will and armor that grants health regeneration and the wizard seems a little less powerful.

The tiers are the way they are because the people who decided them decided on arbitrary rules that they were confined to. (Wizards are on top because every class is presumed to be at level 20 and it's presumed that the wizard knows exactly what challenges he's gonna face each day).

[MukkTB]

ok lets reword it. Lets say the fighter can use his bonus feats on anything. What tier then?

[Emperor Tippy]

The tiers are the way they are because the people who decided them decided on arbitrary rules that they were confined to. (Wizards are on top because every class is presumed to be at level 20 and it's presumed that the wizard knows exactly what challenges he's gonna face each day).

Pick a level, and develop any level appropriate challenges that you want and find a DM to run in and my wizard will dominate those challenges more often than not.

Wizard 1 can and will slaughter Fighter 1 if the Wizard is built right, regardless of the Fighter's build. At least most of the time.

[Emperor Tippy]

ok lets reword it. Lets say the fighter can use his bonus feats on anything. What tier then?

Tier 4 with some builds breaking into Tier 3 (mostly because of faking other classes with feats). And that is almost solely because of Martial Study and the Incarum feats.

[Flickerdart]

The tiers are the way they are because the people who decided them decided on arbitrary rules that they were confined to. (Wizards are on top because every class is presumed to be at level 20 and it's presumed that the wizard knows exactly what challenges he's gonna face each day).
I don't know why you think this. The only place such a claim appears is in posts by deniers of the tier framework. The actual posts by JaronK that details how tiers work emphasizes that tiers are build, level, context, and optimization agnostic.

[Phelix-Mu]

There was a discussion months ago about trying to make the highest tier non-magical character class concept possible. The result of the discussion was more or less that, even with a stupidly large array of abilities cherrypicked from every mundane source around, it's difficult to break into tier 2. I was using stuff like d12 HD, full BAB, all good saves, maneuvers, and, pertinently, a bonus feat at every level that could be reassigned each day (like Chameleon).

Working backwards, you can then strip away coolness, and you will likely find that anything resembling the existing fighter won't pop up until you are way near the bottom of tier 3 or in 4.

As noted, the problem is that feats are great for making builds, but being able to mix and match a handful of feats on-command is not that useful. Cool, and it probably does increase some combat abilities and effectiveness at killing things. But, overall versatility is still a problem. Flight, teleportation, unbeatable stealth, illusions, all of these and more can only be weakly imitated by feats, if that.

[JaronK]

The tiers are the way they are because the people who decided them decided on arbitrary rules that they were confined to. (Wizards are on top because every class is presumed to be at level 20 and it's presumed that the wizard knows exactly what challenges he's gonna face each day).

How do you reconcile this claim with the fact that the system itself explicitly states it's focused mostly on levels 6 to 15?

Also, who specifically do you believe are the "people who decided them?" What other arbitrary rules do you think they were confined to?

Jaronk

[137beth]

How do you reconcile this claim with the fact that the system itself explicitly states it's focused mostly on levels 6 to 15?

Also, who specifically do you believe are the "people who decided them?" What other arbitrary rules do you think they were confined to?

Jaronk

Why do I get the sense that 95% of complaints about the tier system are based on complete misunderstandings/misinformation?

I mean, most complaints about the tier system seem to be either
a)it assumes level 20 (it doesn't)
b)it assumes single class characters only (it doesn't)
c)it assumes very high optimization/cheese (it doesn't)

[Dusk Eclipse]

Because 95% of the people who complain about the tier system haven't even read the thing, the hear tier and automatically assume it is something like Tiers in fighting games.

[3Power]

Pick a level, and develop any level appropriate challenges that you want and find a DM to run in and my wizard will dominate those challenges more often than not.

Wizard 1 can and will slaughter Fighter 1 if the Wizard is built right, regardless of the Fighter's build. At least most of the time.

"If the wizard is built right." Sure. Anything can dominate an encounter if it's built for it. But you don't always know what you're facing, in which case you have to go with a general build, and if you're going with a general build, why not just go sorcerer? They get more spells per day, and still have access to the entire wizard selection via (*gasp*) magic items like scrolls. And yet, sorcerer is a tier below wizard, just because a wizard has the potential to pick the exact right spells each morning from their conveniently filled-with-every-spell-in-the-game spell book.


The actual posts by JaronK that details how tiers work emphasizes that tiers are build, level, context, and optimization agnostic. Except that's not really true, is it? The wizard is assumed to always have the right tool for the job, while the fighter has nothing but basic magic items. Which goes back to the point I was originally making - that magic items are the solution to perceived imbalances.


How do you reconcile this claim with the fact that the system itself explicitly states it's focused mostly on levels 6 to 15? I see no mention of that, but I would claim that focus exists to make the wizard look even better by removing the early levels where they suck to high heaven.


Also, who specifically do you believe are the "people who decided them?"You apparently.

[Emperor Tippy]

"If the wizard is built right." Sure. Anything can dominate an encounter if it's built for it. But you don't always know what you're facing, in which case you have to go with a general build, and if you're going with a general build, why not just go sorcerer? They get more spells per day, and still have access to the entire wizard selection via (*gasp*) magic items like scrolls. And yet, sorcerer is a tier below wizard, just because a wizard has the potential to pick the exact right spells each morning from their conveniently filled-with-every-spell-in-the-game spell book.
I was talking about a general wizard build with no advance knowledge of what the encounter is.

And the Wizard is better than the Sorcerer because any time that he can make, at a minimum, educated guesses about what he will face he can tailor his spell list to that situation.

Is a wizard adventuring in the arctic likely to run into foes that are immune to fire magic? No, but he is far more likely to run into foes that are resistant or immune to cold. So he prepares fewer cold based spells and more fire based spells.

A wizard going into a city to search for information? Those fireballs are less useful and preparing spells useful in social situations is generally a good idea.

A Sorcerer can't do all of that. He is forced to always choose generally applicable spells, to always face a situation where a number of spells are less than useful, to rarely face a situation where he has exactly the right spell.

Hell, take a simple situation. Any decently built Wizard or Sorcerer is going to have Teleport or Greater Teleport (if not both) in their spell book/spells known. Does that Teleport do absolutely anything for a Sorcerer who is adventuring in a city protected by a Weirdstone? No, it's a wasted spell known. The Wizard on the other hand can just not prepare his usual teleport that day and instead prepare something else.

Or even better, the wizard is spending the day back at home with no plans for adventuring that day so he only fills, say, a third of his spell slots with spells that he actually plans on casting that day (most of which are lower level). But then an emergency comes up, so he spends 15 minutes in meditation and fills those other 2/3rds of his spell slots with whatever is best to deal with the problem.

Your Sorcerer that is built for dungeon diving and adventuring has very little magic that is of any use when he isn't dungeon diving and adventuring.

Hell, as a Wizard I regularly leave anywhere from a half to a third of my post buff routine spell slots empty in the morning. That gives me enough to handle an emergency encounter or two but in the far more likely event that I have some notice of what I will be facing I can spend 15 minutes to get those specialized spells ready that I would otherwise never have prepared.

And an encounter is over? I can just spend 15 minutes meditation and refill on any expended spells.

[gooddragon1]

I was talking about a general wizard build with no advance knowledge of what the encounter is.

And the Wizard is better than the Sorcerer because any time that he can make, at a minimum, educated guesses about what he will face he can tailor his spell list to that situation.

Is a wizard adventuring in the arctic likely to run into foes that are immune to fire magic? No, but he is far more likely to run into foes that are resistant or immune to cold. So he prepares fewer cold based spells and more fire based spells.

A wizard going into a city to search for information? Those fireballs are less useful and preparing spells useful in social situations is generally a good idea.

A Sorcerer can't do all of that. He is forced to always choose generally applicable spells, to always face a situation where a number of spells are less than useful, to rarely face a situation where he has exactly the right spell.

Hell, take a simple situation. Any decently built Wizard or Sorcerer is going to have Teleport or Greater Teleport (if not both) in their spell book/spells known. Does that Teleport do absolutely anything for a Sorcerer who is adventuring in a city protected by a Weirdstone? No, it's a wasted spell known. The Wizard on the other hand can just not prepare his usual teleport that day and instead prepare something else.

Or even better, the wizard is spending the day back at home with no plans for adventuring that day so he only fills, say, a third of his spell slots with spells that he actually plans on casting that day (most of which are lower level). But then an emergency comes up, so he spends 15 minutes in meditation and fills those other 2/3rds of his spell slots with whatever is best to deal with the problem.

Your Sorcerer that is built for dungeon diving and adventuring has very little magic that is of any use when he isn't dungeon diving and adventuring.

Hell, as a Wizard I regularly leave anywhere from a half to a third of my post buff routine spell slots empty in the morning. That gives me enough to handle an emergency encounter or two but in the far more likely event that I have some notice of what I will be facing I can spend 15 minutes to get those specialized spells ready that I would otherwise never have prepared.

And an encounter is over? I can just spend 15 minutes meditation and refill on any expended spells.

This is why I don't like playing casters (especially preparing casters). I like to play D&D casually and want to 'get up and go' not play chess. I just don't like thinking too hard about decisions unless I am forced to. Now is a wizard more powerful? Of course. But I'm playing the game to have fun and preparing spells is like walking over broken glass barefoot for me.

[TuggyNE]

And an encounter is over? I can just spend 15 minutes meditation and refill on any expended spells.

This is somewhat prone to misinterpretation, but I assume you mean that you fill some of your previously unexpended slots with enough additional spells to handle the next encounter or so, rather than refilling expended slots with the same spells again (which would not be possible normally).

[Flickerdart]

This is why I don't like playing casters (especially preparing casters). I like to play D&D casually and want to 'get up and go' not play chess. I just don't like thinking too hard about decisions unless I am forced to. Now is a wizard more powerful? Of course. But I'm playing the game to have fun and preparing spells is like walking over broken glass barefoot for me.
You can pull Wizard spells from a hat every day and still be very useful. Behold:

Hat the Wizard is n 8th level Transmuter, banning Enchantment and Evocation. He has an Intelligence of 22, but it was 18 when he started, so he knows nine 1st level spells, four 2nd level spells, four 3rd level spells, and four 4th level spells. They are as follows:

1: Grease, Mage Armor, Obscuring Mist, Enlarge Person, Ray of Enfeeblement, Shield, Protection from Evil, Summon Monster I, Silent Image
2: Glitterdust, Web, Alter Self, Invisibility
3: Dispel Magic, Haste, Stinking Cloud, Fly
4: Black Tentacles, Solid Fog, Polymorph, Dimension Door

Because of his high Intelligence and specialization, Hat's slots per day are 7/6/5/4. Let the dice fall where they may!

1: Shield, Shield, Grease, Mage Armor, Prot. Evil, Silent Image, Enlarge Person (only choice that fulfils his specialization obligation)
2: Alter Self, Invisibility, Glitterdust, Web (how nice, we got one of each here)
3: Stinking Cloud, Stinking Cloud, Dispel Magic, Fly
4: Polymorph, Solid Fog, Solid Fog, Dimension Door

Today, Hat the Wizard is very well protected from danger, and can help his party by attacking Will saves, Reflex saves, Fort saves, no saves at all, and various buffs to boot. You'll be hard-pressed to think of an encounter where Hat can't contribute in some way (even if it's casting Invisibility and Fly on himself and employing the better part of courage).

[TheIronGolem]

The solution to non magic classes has always been magic. Give the fighter a sword that let's him slash out a wave of fire in a 30 ft cone 5/day with damage comparable to fireball, boots that let him fly at will and armor that grants health regeneration and the wizard seems a little less powerful.

There are several problems with that idea:

"Make non-casters into baby casters" is a poor way of fixing non-casters, because it misses the point of why they need to be fixed.
The magic that the fighter can access through his magic items will almost never be as powerful or as versatile as the magic that the casters access directly.
Exceptions to #2 exist (like artifacts), but then you reach a point where the magic item is what's really doing the work, and the guy holding it is almost incidental. He's just a delivery platform for more magic.
Where do most magic items come from? Casters*. So if the CR's are high enough that the fighter needs magic items to effectively fight, that's another way of saying he needs the blessing of casters to do his job. And to forestall the usual response: No, the reverse isn't also true. At this level, casters have long since outgrown the need for "meatshields", if indeed they ever needed them.
The casters have magic items, too. Usually better ones that act as force multipliers on the casters' own magic (which, as previously noted, was better than the fighter's borrowed magic to begin with).


*Pathfinder, to its credit, makes this somewhat less true with the Master Craftsman feat.

[Emperor Tippy]

This is somewhat prone to misinterpretation, but I assume you mean that you fill some of your previously unexpended slots with enough additional spells to handle the next encounter or so, rather than refilling expended slots with the same spells again (which would not be possible normally).

Pretty much.

Take something like Dispel Magic. Any wizard should always have one at the ready but the majority of the time you aren't going to need it. So you buy a few scrolls at the highest useful CL (10 in the case of Dispel) for those situations (or a wand, my preferred choice) and prepare one. If you use it then you spend fifteen minutes and fill another slot with one (unless you have some reason not to in the specific situation in question) and go on about your day.

If you prepare none then you are using up finite resources (Wands or Scrolls) when you need the odd Dispel but if you prepare more, well how often have you needed to throw out Dispel Magic multiple times in a given fight? It's certainly not all that common.

Now take a Sorcerer. What Sorcerer isn't going to have Dispel Magic or Greater Dispel Magic on their spells known list? The Sorcerer only gets around 45 spells known, and only 24 of those are the same or higher level as Dispel Magic.

Is Dispel Magic a spell that any well built Sorcerer should have as a Spell Known? Certainly, but it is still 1/24th of a finite resource devoted to a small fraction of the situations that you will face.

Or take Invisibility. For sneaking and scouting Invisibility works just fine and is only a third level spell but you want Greater Invisibility for combat, it's a great buff and tool. So does the Sorcerer take both, devoting even more of his finite resources to situationally useful spells. Or does he just take Invisibility and loose out on a great combat defense and attack buff? Or does he just take Greater Invisibility and concede using a higher level spell slot with a shorter duration for scouting? Or does he buy the Ring and devote a good chunk of his WBL to a situationally useful item. And then you get into Mass Invisibility (it's a better idea to devote the feat to Chain spell) and Invisibility Sphere.

With every spell it's one more chunk of a finite resource used up on something that is often totally or partially worthless and yet is useful often enough that acquiring it through scrolls of wands quickly becomes quite expensive.

A wizard uses a non finite resource for all of this. Is the wizard facing a situation where he needs to use more 6th level spell slots than normal for a specific purpose? Well then he just prepares a Dispel Magic instead of his usual Greater Dispel Magic and keeps his GDM scroll on hand on the off chance that he runs into an enemy that needs such strong magic.

[3Power]

Wow, it's almost like you completely ignored my argument. Let's break this down, shall we?


Is a wizard adventuring in the arctic likely to run into foes that are immune to fire magic? No, but he is far more likely to run into foes that are resistant or immune to cold. So he prepares fewer cold based spells and more fire based spells.
And is thus completely boned when he runs into an ice devil (immune to fire). Meanwhile, my sorcerer, who prepared for the same ice-immunity situation by buying a wand of fireballs (MAGIC ITEM), can still spend 4 of his 6 3rd level spells casting resist energy(cold) on the party, not to mention magic circle vs evil and, oh, haste, to deal with this unexpected threat. Meanwhile, Mr. Wizard is stuck with a bunch of useless 3rd level spell slots.


A wizard going into a city to search for information? Those fireballs are less useful and preparing spells useful in social situations is generally a good idea.Wow! It sure would be nice if a Sorcerer's primary spellcasting stat gave him bonuses to social interactions. Would also be nice if there was some sort of 1st level sorcerer spell that could charm the kind of person I might find in town.

I hope the wizard prepared just enough charm persons by the way. It would suck if he had too little and didn't get the info he needed. Or too many and thus got his butt handed to him when a bunch of ghosts suddenly attacked and he didn't have any magic missiles prepared.

What's that? I need some other random spell? Good thing I bought it as a scroll (MAGIC ITEM). What's that? Ah but I can't scribe it in my spellbook to have it forever? Gee, guess I'll have to buy a second scroll of this rarely-if-ever-cast spell then. Oh well. How many spells do you have in that spellbook anyway? I thought they had a limited number of pages? Be a shame to lose all your class abilities if it got wrecked too. If my scrolls got wrecked, at least I'd still have my most useful spells available.


Hell, take a simple situation. Any decently built Wizard or Sorcerer is going to have Teleport or Greater Teleport (if not both) in their spell book/spells known. Does that Teleport do absolutely anything for a Sorcerer who is adventuring in a city protected by a Weirdstone? No, it's a wasted spell known. The Wizard on the other hand can just not prepare his usual teleport that day and instead prepare something else.
I guess my sorcerer will have to content himself with spending his 5th level slots on such useless spells as Overland flight, Shadow Evocation, and Persistent Image instead. Oh, or I could sacrifice two 5th level spell slots to cast a 6th level spell. (Because sorcerers have a feat for that). Or, in my particular case, sacrifice a spell slot of that level to breathe fire for 15d6 damage (at level 15) in a 30 ft cone. Yeah, not needing teleport REALLY hurt my options there. On the other hand, let's flip it around. Mr Wizard thought he needed teleport. Turned out he didn't. That means he only had 3 base spells available to him for that level that day. The sorcerer still has 6 base spells and they can each do one of 8 things (4 5th level spells, 3 6th level spells, breath weapon). A sorcerer who doesn't need a spell that day is a sorcerer who uses that slot for something else. A wizard who doesn't need a spell that day, actually reduces the amount of magic available to him.



Or even better, the wizard is spending the day back at home with no plans for adventuring that day so he only fills, say, a third of his spell slots with spells that he actually plans on casting that day (most of which are lower level). But then an emergency comes up, so he spends 15 minutes in meditation and fills those other 2/3rds of his spell slots with whatever is best to deal with the problem.
Wow, how convenient. An emergency that gives you 15 minutes to respond. What if the emergency is your home being invaded by hordes of orcs? And how is not being immediately ready to assist better than not having the absolute perfect spell to assist with?


Your Sorcerer that is built for dungeon diving and adventuring has very little magic that is of any use when he isn't dungeon diving and adventuring.
For those rare occasions, I have scrolls. Scrolls a wizard has to buy anyway to even have access to all those spells.

Also, I think if you actually take a look at the spell lists, you'll find there are very few spells that have any use in say, a town, unless you find a specific use for them. (Lifting boxes with floating disc, for instance). Most of them are divination.


Hell, as a Wizard I regularly leave anywhere from a half to a third of my post buff routine spell slots empty in the morning. That gives me enough to handle an emergency encounter or two but in the far more likely event that I have some notice of what I will be facing I can spend 15 minutes to get those specialized spells ready that I would otherwise never have prepared. Assumes you have time.

And an encounter is over? I can just spend 15 minutes meditation and refill on any expended spells.Assumes you have time.

See what I mean? Tiers are built on assumptions. If the wizard knows what's coming and if he has the perfect spell for it and if he has enough preparation time to be able to cast it, then he is top tier

Even though the sorcerer is at any given time more flexible than the wizard. Even though every spell the wizard possesses can be cast via scroll. Even though the sorcerer does more in a day than the wizard could ever hope to dream of. Even though the wizard's class abilities are tied to a single mundane item.

Oh, and not to get too too hung up on the whole scroll thing, even though "magic items invalidate tiers" has been my point from the beginning. A sorcerer who buys a scroll ready to cast at a moment's notice > a wizard that bought the spell once, scribed it into his spellbook, and didn't prepare it when he needed it any time.

[gooddragon1]

You can pull Wizard spells from a hat every day and still be very useful. Behold:

Hat the Wizard is n 8th level Transmuter, banning Enchantment and Evocation. He has an Intelligence of 22, but it was 18 when he started, so he knows nine 1st level spells, four 2nd level spells, four 3rd level spells, and four 4th level spells. They are as follows:

1: Grease, Mage Armor, Obscuring Mist, Enlarge Person, Ray of Enfeeblement, Shield, Protection from Evil, Summon Monster I, Silent Image
2: Glitterdust, Web, Alter Self, Invisibility
3: Dispel Magic, Haste, Stinking Cloud, Fly
4: Black Tentacles, Solid Fog, Polymorph, Dimension Door

Because of his high Intelligence and specialization, Hat's slots per day are 7/6/5/4. Let the dice fall where they may!

1: Shield, Shield, Grease, Mage Armor, Prot. Evil, Silent Image, Enlarge Person (only choice that fulfils his specialization obligation)
2: Alter Self, Invisibility, Glitterdust, Web (how nice, we got one of each here)
3: Stinking Cloud, Stinking Cloud, Dispel Magic, Fly
4: Polymorph, Solid Fog, Solid Fog, Dimension Door

Today, Hat the Wizard is very well protected from danger, and can help his party by attacking Will saves, Reflex saves, Fort saves, no saves at all, and various buffs to boot. You'll be hard-pressed to think of an encounter where Hat can't contribute in some way (even if it's casting Invisibility and Fly on himself and employing the better part of courage).

The problem for me is that there are too many decisions to be made. Even if you have a set spell list you have to figure out what to use and when. Though I do think that multiple offerings of resource management (from none to total) is one of the good points of 3.5 I prefer to stick to the none aspect as much as possible. If you've ever played the LoD mode of dota imagine taking all passives and no actives. That's what I like to play.
-Drunken Brawler x2 20%
-Juggernaut Critical x2 36%
-Chaos Knight Critical x3 11%
-Mortred Critical [Ult] x4 15%

Item build:
7 blades of attack (2 become phase boots with 1 purchase of boots)
Into 5 crystalis (10% for 1.75x crit each)
Super Secret late game: 5 buriza (20% for 2.5x crit each)

It's critical for success.

[3Power]

"Make non-casters into baby casters" is a poor way of fixing non-casters, because it misses the point of why they need to be fixed. I just am advocating giving the more limited classes the ability to do more. The biggest danger with people who run more generic characters is boredom. Even having a magic item that say, self buffs a fighter with enlarge person as a swift action is one more option in combat than they had before.

The magic that the fighter can access through his magic items will almost never be as powerful or as versatile as the magic that the casters access directly. As it should be. Casters should be powerful, but they should not be the only person on the team doing stuff.

Exceptions to #2 exist (like artifacts), but then you reach a point where the magic item is what's really doing the work, and the guy holding it is almost incidental. He's just a delivery platform for more magic.
The martial classes have always been like that though.

Where do most magic items come from? Casters*. So if the CR's are high enough that the fighter needs magic items to effectively fight, that's another way of saying he needs the blessing of casters to do his job. And to forestall the usual response: No, the reverse isn't also true. At this level, casters have long since outgrown the need for "meatshields", if indeed they ever needed them.I'm aware of the irony, I just don't care about it.

The casters have magic items, too. Usually better ones that act as force multipliers on the casters' own magic (which, as previously noted, was better than the fighter's borrowed magic to begin with).
In my experience, caster magic items either make up for their natural shortcomings, (Low AC, for instance), buff their spell-casting ability, or allow them to cast additional spells at a weaker level. (Wands, Scrolls, Staves) The thing is, none of these things really change what the wizard is doing, and I think it's good that it stays that way. What I'm advocating is giving the fighter items that let him do stuff he wouldn't otherwise be able to do.


Now take a Sorcerer. What Sorcerer isn't going to have Dispel Magic or Greater Dispel Magic on their spells known list? The Sorcerer only gets around 45 spells known, and only 24 of those are the same or higher level as Dispel Magic.

Is Dispel Magic a spell that any well built Sorcerer should have as a Spell Known? Certainly, but it is still 1/24th of a finite resource devoted to a small fraction of the situations that you will face. Magic is encountered often enough in D&D that I have no problem spending 1/24th of a resource on a universal method of countering it. Even if I cast dispel magic twice in one day, I still have the same spells per day as a generalist wizard left over to cast other things with


Or take Invisibility. For sneaking and scouting Invisibility works just fine and is only a third level spell but you want Greater Invisibility for combat, it's a great buff and tool. So does the Sorcerer take both, devoting even more of his finite resources to situationally useful spells. Or does he just take Invisibility and loose out on a great combat defense and attack buff? Or does he just take Greater Invisibility and concede using a higher level spell slot with a shorter duration for scouting? Or does he buy the Ring and devote a good chunk of his WBL to a situationally useful item. And then you get into Mass Invisibility (it's a better idea to devote the feat to Chain spell) and Invisibility Sphere.Even if I spend a higher level spell slot on greater invisibility, it's a spell slot the wizard doesn't get. So if I "waste" greater invisibility in a context that doesn't require combat, I'm still better off than the wizard. Oh, and it might be getting a little old, but if I specifically needed invisibility's duration: scroll, or potion, or maybe wand if it came up often enough. That being said, neither wizards nor sorcerers should be scouting, so the rogue should really be buying his own invisibility potions.


A wizard uses a non finite resource for all of this. Is the wizard facing a situation where he needs to use more 6th level spell slots than normal for a specific purpose? Well then he just prepares a Dispel Magic instead of his usual Greater Dispel Magic and keeps his GDM scroll on hand on the off chance that he runs into an enemy that needs such strong magic. Whereas the sorcerer always has as many Dispel Magics as he needs. No more, no fewer. And I'll say it again, but a single spell cast by a sorcerer at a higher than necessary level, is still a spell a wizard wouldn't be able to cast.

[Emperor Tippy]

Wow, it's almost like you completely ignored my argument. Let's break this down, shall we?

And is thus completely boned when he runs into an ice devil (immune to fire). Meanwhile, my sorcerer, who prepared for the same ice-immunity situation by buying a wand of fireballs (MAGIC ITEM), can still spend 4 of his 6 3rd level spells casting resist energy(cold) on the party, not to mention magic circle vs evil and, oh, haste, to deal with this unexpected threat. Meanwhile, Mr. Wizard is stuck with a bunch of useless 3rd level spell slots.
So your Sorcerer dropped at least 11,500 GP (or about 10% of ECL 13 WBL) on a rod to deal with the likelihood of running into cold immune, fire weak enemies. And you consider this a benefit?

And no, my wizard has a brain so he just spends a 4th level slot and a standard action on Mass Resist Energy, possibly from a scroll.


Wow! It sure would be nice if a Sorcerer's primary spellcasting stat gave him bonuses to social interactions. Would also be nice if there was some sort of 1st level sorcerer spell that could charm the kind of person I might find in town.
So the only spell you can think of that would be useful in a social situation or intelligence gathering in a city is Charm Person?


I hope the wizard prepared just enough charm persons by the way. It would suck if he had too little and didn't get the info he needed. Or too many and thus got his butt handed to him when a bunch of ghosts suddenly attacked and he didn't have any magic missiles prepared.
Why wouldn't the wizard have Magic Missile's on hand? A wand of Arcane Thesis Invisible Fell Drain Easy Meta Co-operative Chain Enlarged Magic Missile is a must have for any decent wizard and only costs 750 GP to purchase. Two uses of Psychic Reformation and a week of downtime and the wizard can create pretty much all he will ever need on his own.

Granted, for dealing with Ghost your Orb of Force is a better choice. Or an Anti-Magic Field so that they can do nothing to you. Or any number of other anti ghost tactics.


What's that? I need some other random spell? Good thing I bought it as a scroll (MAGIC ITEM). What's that? Ah but I can't scribe it in my spellbook to have it forever? Gee, guess I'll have to buy a second scroll of this rarely-if-ever-cast spell then. Oh well. How many spells do you have in that spellbook anyway? I thought they had a limited number of pages? Be a shame to lose all your class abilities if it got wrecked too. If my scrolls got wrecked, at least I'd still have my most useful spells available.
Nothing I have listed is "rarely if ever used". And again, you are spending limited resources to deal with these problems.

Eidetic Spellcaster if it is a real concern, but I use Blessed Books and just store them in safe places, like inside my stomach. Or in my gloves. Or in the stomach of the Ice Assassin of the Great Wyrm Red Dragon that is charged with guarding those books and is stored in my stomach.


I guess my sorcerer will have to content himself with spending his 5th level slots on such useless spells as Overland flight, Shadow Evocation, and Persistent Image instead.
Spells that are, again, less than useful in a number of situations although should still be on a Sorcerers list of spells known.


Oh, or I could sacrifice two 5th level spell slots to cast a 6th level spell. (Because sorcerers have a feat for that).
Versatile Spellcaster is nice but all it does it let you cast one of your limited number of spells again.


Or, in my particular case, sacrifice a spell slot of that level to breathe fire for 15d6 damage (at level 15) in a 30 ft cone.
I'm sorry but that just isn't all that impressive, either in AOE or damage dealt.


Yeah, not needing teleport REALLY hurt my options there. On the other hand, let's flip it around. Mr Wizard thought he needed teleport. Turned out he didn't. That means he only had 3 base spells available to him for that level that day. The sorcerer still has 6 base spells and they can each do one of 8 things (4 5th level spells, 3 6th level spells, breath weapon). A sorcerer who doesn't need a spell that day is a sorcerer who uses that slot for something else. A wizard who doesn't need a spell that day, actually reduces the amount of magic available to him.
And a Sorcerer who picks a spell that he doesn't need often permanently limits himself. A wizard misread the situation, he shrugs and moves on. A Sorcerer misread the situation, he is pretty much screwed.

And Teleport doesn't need to be used every day to be worthwhile to have prepared.


Wow, how convenient. An emergency that gives you 15 minutes to respond. What if the emergency is your home being invaded by hordes of orcs? And how is not being immediately ready to assist better than not having the absolute perfect spell to assist with?
No, because anything that could break into a wizards base of operations and into his inner sanctum within 15 minutes is powerful enough that the wizard should just run, or the wizard is such an idiot that his dying isn't any great loss.

And a horde of Orc's? When my home is, say, a fortress buried two hundred miles under the moons surface with no point of entry except teleportation (or the ability to move through solid stone), which is blocked with a Weirdstone controlled by a Simulacrum that has a permanent Telepathic Bond with me and is only deactivated when I order it.


For those rare occasions, I have scrolls. Scrolls a wizard has to buy anyway to even have access to all those spells.
Or he walks into the mage's guild and pulls out the spell book with the specific spell that he wants in it and just copies it into his spell book.


Also, I think if you actually take a look at the spell lists, you'll find there are very few spells that have any use in say, a town, unless you find a specific use for them. (Lifting boxes with floating disc, for instance). Most of them are divination.

Assumes you have time.
Assumes you have time.
That shows a distinct lack of imagination, or a lack of knowledge about the numerous and varied spells that exist in the game (no real problem, a Sorcerer would be insane to take most of them thanks to their situational usefulness).


See what I mean? Tiers are built on assumptions. If the wizard knows what's coming and if he has the perfect spell for it and if he has enough preparation time to be able to cast it, then he is top tier
Except they really, really, aren't.


Even though the sorcerer is at any given time more flexible than the wizard.
Except the Sorcerer isn't.


Even though every spell the wizard possesses can be cast via scroll.
For an investment of gold and time.


Even though the sorcerer does more in a day than the wizard could ever hope to dream of.
Except really, really, not.


Even though the wizard's class abilities are tied to a single mundane item.
Except that they really aren't.


Oh, and not to get too too hung up on the whole scroll thing, even though "magic items invalidate tiers" has been my point from the beginning.
Except that they really don't.


A sorcerer who buys a scroll ready to cast at a moment's notice > a wizard that bought the spell once, scribed it into his spellbook, and didn't prepare it when he needed it any time.
Stupid and ill-prepared wizards aren't really worthy of discussion, seeing as that tends to be a major roleplay failure as wizards are universally super intelligent.

[fluke1993]

3Power:

The problem with buying magic items to solve a specific problem is that all your doing is throwing gold at the problem. Magic items are at their best when used to enhance what you can already do. Wings of flying allow a fighter to hit far more than he can without them and his magic sword allows him to do it harder than he previously could. A casters +4 X item raises his saves and allows him to cast more spells per day. These are items that are useful in MANY situations. When you buy items re-actively you risk ending up with dead weight in your backpack after the problem is solved.

I'm not saying that buying scrolls of acid resist when going up against a black dragon is a bad idea (in fact, given the amount you stand to gain from the fight it's probably a very good one) but the cost of what you suggest prevents it from being effective in the long run.

Second If you give the fighter the same abilities as the wizard (no matter how you do it) then they are essentially the same thing. And if I wanted that, I would go play 4e. I do believe that there is an imbalance between the fighter and the wizard BUT I don't believe that bringing the fighter up to the wizards level (again regardless of how you do it) is the proper way to solve it.

Third nobody is trying to argue that the sorcerer isn't a powerful class, it's one of the strongest on the list and in raw power will beat the wizard every time. The wizard shines because it can rework it's entire power base with a single nights rest. As far as the spell book goes, any wizard who get's it destroyed after about 5th level doesn't deserve the title. Also keep in mind that any sort of item trick the sorc can pull off the wizard can probably do better given it's higher number of feats. If the sorc is relying on ye olde magic emporium for versatility he needs even more prep time than the wizard probably would. Finally if it comes down to scroll battles the wizard is usually going to win because he is capable of crafting them far better than the sorc can.

Finally there's only so much that magic items can do. your argument that a wizard is boned if he's caught with his pants down is invalid because any (and I do mean any) class is just as boned. Taken by surprise by a black dragon? Those potions of acid resist are gonna do you aren't gonna do you any good because you never bought them. Or lets say you do buy them but you are instead attacked by a shadow dragon? If you catch anyone unawares wizard or fighter, sorcerer or commoner, that person is far more likely to end up with a lump of mangled flesh where their everything used to be.

tl;dr magic items don't invalidate the tier system because everyone has equal access to magic item shennanigins

[3Power]

So your Sorcerer dropped at least 11,500 GP (or about 10% of ECL 13 WBL) on a rod to deal with the likelihood of running into cold immune, fire weak enemies. And you consider this a benefit? At will fireballs in a pinch are nice. And it's not like it exists only for this one purpose.



And no, my wizard has a brain so he just spends a 4th level slot and a standard action on Mass Resist Energy, possibly from a scroll. Good for you. That way your party will take only 35 damage from his at will cone of colds, not 45.


So the only spell you can think of that would be useful in a social situation or intelligence gathering in a city is Charm Person?The only one that comes up often enough to worth adding to my spell list. The rest? Scrolls.


Eidetic Spellcaster if it is a real concern, but I use Blessed Books and just store them in safe places, like inside my stomach. Or in my gloves. Or in the stomach of the Ice Assassin of the Great Wyrm Red Dragon that is charged with guarding those books and is stored in my stomach.The usual solution, of course.


Spells that are, again, less than useful in a number of situations although should still be on a Sorcerers list of spells known.They're just as less than useful on a wizard's prepared spell lists.


I'm sorry but that just isn't all that impressive, either in AOE or damage dealt.Every spell level now has a free damage spell, I'm happy enough with that.


And a Sorcerer who picks a spell that he doesn't need often permanently limits himself. A wizard misread the situation, he shrugs and moves on. A Sorcerer misread the situation, he is pretty much screwed. The sorcerer contents himself knowing that someday teleport will come in handy. The wizard lives in fear that he will have it and not need it, or need it and not have it.


No, because anything that could break into a wizards base of operations and into his inner sanctum within 15 minutes is powerful enough that the wizard should just run, or the wizard is such an idiot that his dying isn't any great loss. Remember what I said about assumptions? It's nice that your wizard has a super fortress. It's not a class feature.


Or he walks into the mage's guild and pulls out the spell book with the specific spell that he wants in it and just copies it into his spell book. Assumption. Not a class feature


That shows a distinct lack of imagination, or a lack of knowledge about the numerous and varied spells that exist in the game (no real problem, a Sorcerer would be insane to take most of them thanks to their situational usefulness). I've gone down the core spell list. Very little sticks out. I've noticed you've given no examples.


Except the Sorcerer isn't.Negation is the lowest form of debate.


For an investment of gold and time. Only slightly more than a wizard would pay to get his spells in a default setting.


Except really, really, not.
18 more spells. Eight. Teen.


Except that they really aren't. Negation


Stupid and ill-prepared wizards aren't really worthy of discussion, seeing as that tends to be a major roleplay failure as wizards are universally super intelligent. Assumption :smallbiggrin:

Have a nice day.

[gooddragon1]

I'm not entirely sure about this but imo...
What Lycanthromancer was to psionics, Tippy is to magic. He had to have extensive knowledge of the system to create stuff like the tippyverse and some of the other things he's done. Just imo anyways. So arguing with him about it should be done with the assumption that he's got a good idea of the subject.

[Emperor Tippy]

At will fireballs in a pinch are nice. And it's not like it exists only for this one purpose.
You are throwing fireballs. The only caster I can think of in play in the past 2 years that has thrown 50+ fireballs was built solely around fireballs and used them for everything.


Good for you. That way your party will take only 35 damage from his at will cone of colds, not 45.
Um, a cast level of 11+ means energy resist 30.


The only one that comes up often enough to worth adding to my spell list.
Because you are a Sorcerer.


The rest? Scrolls.
Do you know how much it costs do buy a scroll of each 5th level Arcane spell in the PHB excluding Permanency? A bit over 54,000 GP. Or half the total WBL of an ECL 13 character. So just how much of your wealth are you sinking into scrolls and wands?


The usual solution, of course.
Actually pretty close to it.


They're just as less than useful on a wizard's prepared spell lists.
Except that they aren't on the wizards prepared spell list unless he has a good reason to expect to need them. Does the ability to breath underwater matter in an adventure in the Desert? No, but when crossing the ocean on the other side of that desert it becomes quite valuable while a spell that protects from sandstorms becomes worthless.


The sorcerer contents himself knowing that someday teleport will come in handy. The wizard lives in fear that he will have it and not need it, or need it and not have it.
No, the wizard recognizes that he is in a dangerous profession that kills in excess of 99% of those who take it up and that it is better to retreat than to die. That anything that minimizes catastrophic risks is a good idea. That the ability to be pretty much anywhere in the world on 6 seconds notice is an amazing power that one who is smart will always have available.


Remember what I said about assumptions? It's nice that your wizard has a super fortress. It's not a class feature.
Yeah, it kinda is. A whole host of spells exist for no reason than to make or secure a fortress and base of operations. All spells that no Sorcerer in their right mind is probably going to take.

A wizard worth his Int score is always prepared.


Assumption. Not a class feature
No, it actually is a class feature. Made it into the SRD and everything.


I've gone down the core spell list. Very little sticks out. I've noticed you've given no examples.
Core contains less than 10% of the spells in the game.


Negation is the lowest form of debate.
Most of what you said really isn't worthy of debate. A Sorcerer's flexibility is based entirely on what spells known he has. A Sorcerer can do a limited number of things well but outside of his area or two of capability he is, at best, highly limited. He has no real strategic or tactical flexibility, and a level 17+ Wizard can re-choose and prepare all of his prepared spells with one standard action at no cost.


Only slightly more than a wizard would pay to get his spells in a default setting.
Far more. Copying a 9th level spell into a vanilla spellbook costs 1,350 GP (450 GP into a Blessed Book) per the RAW while a Sorcerer has to pay 3,850 per scroll used.


18 more spells. Eight. Teen.
Unless the Wizard is a domain wizard, in which case it is only 9 more. Or a regular specialist. A Focused Specialist has the same number. This is without touching any of the ways a wizard can negate the need for spell slots, or the ways to get unlimited spell slots.


Negation
When one makes blatantly false statements one can expect a response of little more than "you're wrong". Spell books are relatively trivial to protect and, if destroyed, regain.


. Assumption :smallbiggrin:
It's not an assumption to point out that you are pretty much totally wrong, it's self evidently true from your posts in this thread and you have yet to provide any evidence, proof, or real argument in favor of your position.

People bitch about Schrodinger Wizard's but they have nothing on Schrodinger's Items.

[Fyermind]

Advice to 3power:
I know you don't want to hear it, but trying to argue with Tippy is a bad idea. The kind of game Tippy assumes is a very high op game where characters function very efficiently. Tippy is very knowledgeable about this style game. There are three ways to end an argument with Tippy:
1) Admit that Tippy is right.
2) Claim that the game you are playing is not the game Tippy is playing for explicit reasons and that the high OP tactics Tippy uses definitely won't work.
3) Continue arguing until one of you passes away from old age.

I can count on no hands the number of times I have found where Tippy has claimed something possible or true and has been proven otherwise.

Fun facts for everyone:
Sorcerers and wizards are both quite powerful and when played at the level of optimization that I have seen them at render the games I find enjoyable obsolete. When claims are made about how much better wizards are than sorcerers my reaction tends to be "yeah and they still both look pretty much the same from down here." If you tend to play games like I do where full casters are rare and when they exist carefully pull punches, you may very well feel that sorcerers are stronger than wizards.

Spontaneous casting from an unlimited list is superior to prepared casting from an unlimited list. Sorcerers don't have an unlimited list. Their list is limited enough that it has been agreed by a lot of people with way too much time to work on it over the course of the past eight years or so that wizards are better equipped to handle problems. Having read a lot of these arguments, I am inclined to agree.

[Red Fel]

I'm going to have to side with Tippy on this one.

The Tier system measures versatility. That's it. It's what options a given character has in a given scenario.

Based on that sole criteria - versatility - here's where you fall out.

Wizards, given enough spellbook space, can have any spell, and prepare what they need. At higher levels, they may have to choose from more spells, but they will also have better tools to determine appropriate spells. Thus, they are outrageously versatile.

Sorcerers have limited spells, but can use them from slots rather than preparing them. So they gain the versatility of choosing on the fly, but - and this is key - they lose the broad selection that Wizards get. They have power, but less selection, hence their tier.

And Melee simply lacks the options. Giving Melee a magic item gives him slightly more function, but doesn't change how the class is played. A melee who can fly is still a melee; a melee who can use a Scroll of Fireball is still a melee, but one with a cute trick; a melee with an artifact is just an artifact on wheels. A fighter is not a wizard simply by having a spellbook's worth of rods, scrolls, and the skills to use them.

That's why things are in their tiers. And it makes sense. Arguing from personal experience does not invalidate the overall versatility - or lack thereof - of these classes as designed.

Now would you stop running headfirst into that wall? You're only going to embarrass yourself. I assure you the wall doesn't notice.

[3Power]

tl;dr magic items don't invalidate the tier system because everyone has equal access to magic item shennanigins But with enough magic item shenanigans tiers don't matter.


Um, a cast level of 11+ means energy resist 30. Derp. 10 is still more than 0 though.


Do you know how much it costs do buy a scroll of each 5th level Arcane spell in the PHB excluding Permanency? A bit over 54,000 GP. Or half the total WBL of an ECL 13 character. So just how much of your wealth are you sinking into scrolls and wands?How much are you sinking into the huge fortresses you can somehow afford? Even then, a wizard still has to buy those scrolls (minus the ones he gets for free at level up), a fact you seem to be continually ignoring.


Actually pretty close to it.
Hahahaha no.


Except that they aren't on the wizards prepared spell list unless he has a good reason to expect to need them. Does the ability to breath underwater matter in an adventure in the Desert? No, but when crossing the ocean on the other side of that desert it becomes quite valuable while a spell that protects from sandstorms becomes worthless.
Neither would be on a sorcerer's spell list. He would get scrolls instead. A wizard would buy the same scrolls and likely scribe them into his spellbook. (Since it seems you think it would be worth it) Then, yes, the wizard would be able to cast it on every occasion they had to deal with sandstorms or going underwater, whereas a sorcerer would be content with just the scrolls. As such, when the wizard falls into a pit trap dropping him into a rising pool of water, he is boned since he can't study for 15 minutes to learn the water breathing spell. Whereas the sorcerer can simply cast his scroll. Of course, the wizard could have bought a scroll too, but then he would have paid twice, wouldn't he? Once for the spellbook, and once for emergencies.


No, the wizard recognizes that he is in a dangerous profession that kills in excess of 99% of those who take it up and that it is better to retreat than to die. That anything that minimizes catastrophic risks is a good idea. That the ability to be pretty much anywhere in the world on 6 seconds notice is an amazing power that one who is smart will always have available.
Then what's the problem with the sorcerer having it?


Yeah, it kinda is. A whole host of spells exist for no reason than to make or secure a fortress and base of operations. All spells that no Sorcerer in their right mind is probably going to take.

A wizard worth his Int score is always prepared.
The wizard still has to buy all the relevant spells. And no, it's still not a class feature.


No, it actually is a class feature. Made it into the SRD and everything. Sorry, but there is nothing in the srd that says that every city has a mage guild you can walk into with wizards with every spell in the game that will let you copy their spells for free. Are there rules for paying wizards to copy their spells? Yes. If your DM gives these random mages every spell in the game he is babying you.


Core contains less than 10% of the spells in the game. And yet they're some of the most used, funny how that works.


Most of what you said really isn't worthy of debate. A Sorcerer's flexibility is based entirely on what spells known he has. A Sorcerer can do a limited number of things well but outside of his area or two of capability he is, at best, highly limited. He has no real strategic or tactical flexibility,A sorcerer with all his spells has better flexibility than a wizard with a 3rd of hers every day of the week. You underestimate what can be done with a hammer when you carry around a bunch of single use tools


and a level 17+ Wizard can re-choose and prepare all of his prepared spells with one standard action at no cost.
Lolwut?



Far more. Copying a 9th level spell into a vanilla spellbook costs 1,350 GP (450 GP into a Blessed Book) per the RAW while a Sorcerer has to pay 3,850 per scroll used. Assumes the wizard has the spell you want. Otherwise you pay more when you buy the scroll. You also lose the scroll's spontaneity, in either case. Unless you pay twice what I do anyway to have the best of both worlds.


Unless the Wizard is a domain wizard, in which case it is only 9 more. Or a regular specialist. A Focused Specialist has the same number. This is without touching any of the ways a wizard can negate the need for spell slots, or the ways to get unlimited spell slots.Because DM's are incapable of smelling cheese. Also, specialists are less versatile, and that's your crowning reason for being supposedly better than sorcerers.


When one makes blatantly false statements one can expect a response of little more than "you're wrong". Spell books are relatively trivial to protect and, if destroyed, regain.
Expensive though. 10000 gold for ink alone just to fill one. That's not even counting scroll or mage fees.


It's not an assumption to point out that you are pretty much totally wrong, it's self evidently true from your posts in this thread and you have yet to provide any evidence, proof, or real argument in favor of your position.I've provided plenty, you're just plugging your ears and humming. I think we're done here.


Advice to 3power:Don't really need comments from the peanut gallery.


Spontaneous casting from an unlimited list is superior to prepared casting from an unlimited list. Sorcerers don't have an unlimited list. Their list is limited enough that it has been agreed by a lot of people with way too much time to work on it over the course of the past eight years or so that wizards are better equipped to handle problems. Having read a lot of these arguments, I am inclined to agree. Unfortunately, those arguments are rife with logical fallacies and unfair assumptions, as I have demonstrated. That the wizard is superior when he is capable of predicting what he is going to face is a given. Assuming such, 100% of the time, is a fallacy. The sorcerer, on the other hand, has spell slots that can be used to cast any spells known of a given level on the fly, and more spell slots in general (and particularly far more spell slots than a wizard with a third of hers) has far more versatility when going in to face the unknown.


Sorcerers have limited spells, but can use them from slots rather than preparing them. So they gain the versatility of choosing on the fly, but - and this is key - they lose the broad selection that Wizards get. They have power, but less selection, hence their tier.
What you keep ignoring is that most of the selection is crap anyway. Sorcerers choose the spells that will constantly be used and by scroll for the occasional niche spell. Wizards really gain no advantage having a niche spell in their spellbook. They'd be better off preparing another fireball and keeping it as a scroll.

[3WhiteFox3]

Don't really need comments from the peanut gallery.

Take it to PMs then, you're posting in a public forum open to anyone who wants to post. By definition there is no peanut gallery, because your argument would need to be only between Tippy and you. Arguing in a public place, means the public will share there own opinions and being dismissive of other comments that are just trying to help certainly don't help your argument at all.

[3Power]

Take it to PMs then, you're posting in a public forum open to anyone who wants to post. By definition there is no peanut gallery, because your argument would need to be only between Tippy and you. Arguing in a public place, means the public will share there own opinions and being dismissive of other comments that are just trying to help certainly don't help your argument at all. Other people joining the discussion is appreciated. Telling other people to stop discussing is not. That goes for your post too. "Take it to PM" is not constructive.

[Augmental]

Other people joining the discussion is appreciated. Telling other people to stop discussing is not. That goes for your post too. "Take it to PM" is not constructive.

It sure doesn't sound like you appreciate other people joining the discussion, considering:


Don't really need comments from the peanut gallery.

[Red Fel]

What you keep ignoring is that most of the selection is crap anyway. Sorcerers choose the spells that will constantly be used and by scroll for the occasional niche spell. Wizards really gain no advantage having a niche spell in their spellbook. They'd be better off preparing another fireball and keeping it as a scroll.

This, I think, sums up the entire thread, and puts a neat little bow on it.

The thread started with the notion that fighters might be able to float their feats around, in order to make them more versatile and less dedicated one-trick ponies.

This somehow veered into the eternal debate between melee and casters, which in turn became a debate as to whether use of scrolls, rods, and similar items was a substitute for spellcasting.

Then this last paragraph - that Wizards "gain no advantage having a niche spell" and are "better off preparing another fireball" - pretty much states that casters are also one-trick ponies.

Ignoring for a moment the astonishing tunnel-vision of that statement, (no small feat) I think that 3Power's point, in essence, must be that casters are clearly not overpowered relative to fighters, since after all, they are essentially fireball engines, and what else could they ever need to prepare that they couldn't do with scrolls? We don't need spellcasters at all. Scrolls will save us. Resurrection? Scrolls! Plane shift? Scrolls! Try hard enough, I'm sure you could find someone who'd sell you scrolls of epic spellcasting!

... Oh, dear, I've gone into full-blown sarcasm mode, haven't I?

Basically, 3Power, your thesis, as I understand it, is that scrolls and the like can effectively and productively duplicate what spellcasters can do. But that does not change the fact that spellcasters can do it inherently. You are putting a bandage on a sucking chest wound when you say that, by using an item, any other class can work its way towards the general vicinity of Casterville. (It's located in the Nation of Awesome, and it has a Population of Win.)

At this point, I'm not entirely clear on what's even being debated anymore, but I'm reasonably confident it's not fighter feats.

[Augmental]

At this point, I'm not entirely clear on what's even being debated anymore, but I'm reasonably confident it's not fighter feats.

I think it's a Wizard vs. Sorcerer argument.

[Emperor Tippy]

How much are you sinking into the huge fortresses you can somehow afford?
Nothing or a couple thousand GP depending upon exact level, more if I have money to blow and want to get super fancy.


Even then, a wizard still has to buy those scrolls (minus the ones he gets for free at level up), a fact you seem to be continually ignoring.
Because scrolls don't have to be bought for the vast majority of spells. There are Wizard's guilds, there is trading spells with wizards in town, there is buying spells from other wizards, there are spell books captured in combat when you face wizards, there are entire libraries when you face the BBEG wizards and kill him. And that is without shenanigans (that are rules legal) that get you spell books with whatever spells you want in them for free.


Hahahaha no.
Um yes. The two most common spell book defenses are Hoard Gullet and Familiar Pocket. Spell books are often stored inside the wizard.


Neither would be on a sorcerer's spell list. He would get scrolls instead.
More gold burnt.


A wizard would buy the same scrolls and likely scribe them into his spellbook. (Since it seems you think it would be worth it)
Nope, plenty of other methods to get the spells.


Then, yes, the wizard would be able to cast it on every occasion they had to deal with sandstorms or going underwater, whereas a sorcerer would be content with just the scrolls.
Burning gold with every casting. Cast it once and you are even with a wizard who learned it from a scroll, every time after that makes you worse off than the wizard.


As such, when the wizard falls into a pit trap dropping him into a rising pool of water, he is boned since he can't study for 15 minutes to learn the water breathing spell. Whereas the sorcerer can simply cast his scroll. Of course, the wizard could have bought a scroll too, but then he would have paid twice, wouldn't he? Once for the spellbook, and once for emergencies.
Or the wizard just casts Alter Self and is good, because that works just fine for emergencies but not so well for consistent underwater adventuring or the like, and can't be used on fellow party members.


Then what's the problem with the sorcerer having it?
Nothing, a Sorcerer should have it as one of his spells known. It is also worthless any time the Sorcerer is in a location that blocks teleportation magic. In such a location the Wizard just prepares a different spell while the Sorcerer runs around with yet another spell known expended on something that is a useless irrelevance.


The wizard still has to buy all the relevant spells. And no, it's still not a class feature.
Only if the wizard is lazy, and yes copying spells from other wizards is a class feature.


Sorry, but there is nothing in the srd that says that every city has a mage guild you can walk into with wizards with every spell in the game that will let you copy their spells for free. Are there rules for paying wizards to copy their spells? Yes. If your DM gives these random mages every spell in the game he is babying you.
Every spell in the game? No. Most of the spells in the game? Yes. At least if its an established mage's guild.


And yet they're some of the most used, funny how that works.
Mostly for easy of access and really powerful spells.


A sorcerer with all his spells has better flexibility than a wizard with a 3rd of hers every day of the week. You underestimate what can be done with a hammer when you carry around a bunch of single use tools
No, because I build wizards that are perfectly able and willing to resort to overwhelming force if it is the most effective means of accomplishing the goal. Most of the time though, it's not.

Why do you think the Sorcerer is tier 2? Because of the power of that hammer. What makes the Wizard tier 1 is that he also has the screw driver, the wrench, and all the rest of the tool box. He might take a bit of time scrabbling around in the tool box to find the right tool for the job but the results he gets tend to be far better than the man with only a hammer.


Lolwut?
What? One round to repick all of a wizards spells for the day with no other cost is easy at level 17+.


Assumes the wizard has the spell you want. Otherwise you pay more when you buy the scroll. You also lose the scroll's spontaneity, in either case. Unless you pay twice what I do anyway to have the best of both worlds.
A wizard always has the spell you want. Especially when one has easy access to every city and town in the entire world (or even multiverse).


Because DM's are incapable of smelling cheese.
Which isn't accounted for in the tier list unless it is extreme cheese.



And I regularly state that a Focused Specialist is Tier 2, just like the Sorcerer. It is still more versatile than the Sorcerer though, precisely because it is more adaptable.

[quote]Expensive though. 10000 gold for ink alone just to fill one. That's not even counting scroll or mage fees.
"A wizard can fill the 1,000 pages of a blessed book with spells without paying the 100 gp per page material cost."
It saves you in excess of 85,000 GP. And is a great way to make a profit. You can sell a filled Blessed Book for in excess of 50,000 GP.


I've provided plenty, you're just plugging your ears and humming.
No, you really haven't.


Unfortunately, those arguments are rife with logical fallacies and unfair assumptions, as I have demonstrated. That the wizard is superior when he is capable of predicting what he is going to face is a given. Assuming such, 100% of the time, is a fallacy. The sorcerer, on the other hand, has spell slots that can be used to cast any spells known of a given level on the fly, and more spell slots in general (and particularly far more spell slots than a wizard with a third of hers) has far more versatility when going in to face the unknown.
There are degrees of unknown. Facing the total unknown should pretty much never happen in game.


What you keep ignoring is that most of the selection is crap anyway. Sorcerers choose the spells that will constantly be used and by scroll for the occasional niche spell. Wizards really gain no advantage having a niche spell in their spellbook. They'd be better off preparing another fireball and keeping it as a scroll.
...wizards should virtually never prepare fireball, nor should Sorcerer's. If you are going direct damage in the first place it is still one of the weakest of the direct damage spells.

I think we get to the heart of why you take issue with the Tier list. It doesn't judge on blasting power, it judges on ability to successfully overcome level appropriate challenges.. Fireball is rarely an effective means to overcome a level appropriate challenge.

[EugeneVoid]

This is fun to read. :smallwink:

[Phelix-Mu]

I was originally very skeptical of the tier system. In a very low-op game, its relevance is passing, and there are plenty of tables of all kinds where fun can be had without referring to it.

But the simple fact, I've realized, is that it is simply a good analysis of 3.x and it's approach to class loadouts.

In my opinion, the tier system doesn't say that every tier of op-level x is always going to win every battle under every circumstance, or have the appropriate spell or whatever. What it says is that, statistically speaking, the tier 1 character is going to meet/exceed/bypass said challenge in the game more often and more decisively than a tier 2 character. Also, that any challenge can be equally met/exceeded/bypassed by the tier 1 more often than lower tiers.

Basically, if you copy a tier 1 character a thousand times, and throw each copy independently at the same challenge, they will statistically do better than lower tier characters of equal optimization (and possibly better than lower tier characters of greater op). Moreover, out of a thousand different challenges, the tier 1 will succeed more often and more decisively.

Finally, after a point fairly low in a campaign, tier 1s can alter game dynamics. This is actually fairly true of any spellcaster played to a certain op-level, but tier 1s do it better.

To the other side of the argument, I do agree that wealth levels (and by extension, magic item levels) play a huge role in character viability. I don't think anyone would argue otherwise. But a tier 1 can buy and benefit from most anything that a lower tier can get, and a tier 1 usually has access to greater money resources or cheap items.

As I said, I was originally skeptical. But in the end, the tier system really provides a useful piece of analysis of how the classes in the game tend to interact with the game.

[Flickerdart]

I was originally very skeptical of the tier system. In a very low-op game, its relevance is passing, and there are plenty of tables of all kinds where fun can be had without referring to it.
Even in a low-op game, tiers have their place - the good spells options are often appealing fluff-wise (a spell that lets you be a dragon? sold!) while extremely poor melee options are presented as very strong (why would I take Power Attack and have to deal with a penalty when I can just take Weapon Spec for free damage?).

[Phelix-Mu]

Even in a low-op game, tiers have their place - the good spells options are often appealing fluff-wise (a spell that lets you be a dragon? sold!) while extremely poor melee options are presented as very strong (why would I take Power Attack and have to deal with a penalty when I can just take Weapon Spec for free damage?).

I guess my point was more that many low-op games are played out in ignorance of the system. So, while evidence of the tiers may be found in such games, and knowledge of them might enhance some aspects, many tables aren't aware of it or don't acknowledge it, and I'm sure people still manage to have fun.

Higher op-levels will probably find that disparities in tiers will impact enjoyment of the game. But maybe not. It takes all kinds, after all.

[magwaaf]

What tier would a fighter be if every morning he got to reassign his bonus class feats? Lets assume he had to make a legal build, and that if he left one unassigned he could later in the day spend 15 minutes to pick one.

I'm thinking this is a strong tier 3, but I don't know how powerful this would actually be.

oh yeah... after playing PF for so long i forgot fighters arent awesome in 3.5 lol.

i suppose if you could go anr redo your feats at higher levels to fit with what you aredoing at higher levelwould make them more interesting