Stacking templates over class lvs

[Deca4531]

I have been building a character that is focused around extreme str and con over the utility of class lvs. but am I really ending up with less? my build gives me in the area of 50 to 60 str and 40 to 50 con (around 12th lv). I may not be able to pick a lock but I can tear down most walls. I don't have healing spells but my health regen and hp pool doesn't really need it.

now this isn't meant to be a cheese character, I just like high stats over class ability's, but is it considered ill advised to play a character like this? would I be loosing more than I think than if I was say a fighter or barbarian? I know most melee classes are pretty low on the tier compared to casters but I think the raw power can make up for the utility I loose.

[Chronos]

Con, at least, certainly reaches a point of diminishing returns. It gives you extra hit points to go with each of your hit dice, but that doesn't do you much good if you don't have very many hit dice. Even with a ton of con, you're going to eventually reach a point where you have a lot fewer HP than a conventional character, at which point you risk getting killed.

[danzibr]

Can you state your build? In general class levels are better, but if it's your aim to get uber high Str then class levels aren't... quite as better, so to speak. For example, for a beat stick, Half-Minotaur will probably be better than a level of Barbarian or whatever 9 times out of 10. However, there's gotta be some sort of balance, as Chronos was getting at. Getting 50 Con is really cool at ECL 12, but if 11 of your ECL is from LA, you'd probably be better off with a bit less Con and a bit more HD.

[Deca4531]

the main template I use is were-wolverine, mixed with some breeding templates and environment templates, then stack things like broodguard and lolth-touched. in total I think I end up with a 5 or 6 LA and a d12 HD.

I was doing a little math on it, and im not sure if im 100% on point but I ended up with this
using a base of a d10 HD (average of 5) and 18 con

5+4 x 12lvs = 108HP
5+15 (for a 40con) x 8lv (allowing for a 4LA) = 160HP

now that's mid lv, at max lv we have
5+4x20lvs=180HP
5+15x15(even steeper LA)=300HP

this is taking base stats before any magic or items that either character could obtain

[Tulya]

Generally speaking, yes, you end up with fewer capabilities than other characters by stacking these templates, and what you gain tends to be easily replicated with magic. Polymorph by itself provides a party with all the pure-strength bruising it could ever need. At least until the magic shuts off, in which case you're still a rampaging behemoth with all of your extraordinary capabilities, while polymorphed party members are often rendered fragile monkeys (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0627.html).

(Unless they have anti-antimagic contingencies in place, but that's probably not as common in practice as it is discussed on these boards.)

[Hammerpriest]

Isn't a d10 hit die average of 5.5? In addition, remember to max the first hit die of any character. (So the 5+15 x 8 would actually be 10 + 8(15) + 7(5.5) = 168.5.)

And I always recommend every caster wear a pre-shrunken tinfoil hat to stop AMF from ripping away their buffs and casting ability. A non-prepared wizard is a dead one.

[Deadline]

It's worth noting that ECL (Effective Character Level) is calculated as such: Class levels + Level Adjustment + Racial HitDice.

So a 1st level Barbarian (Natural Lycanthrope) Were-Badger is effectively a 5th level character. 1 Class Level + 3 Level Adjustment + 1 Racial HitDice (you add the animal hitdice for lycanthropes) = 5

[Deca4531]

Isn't a d10 hit die average of 5.5? In addition, remember to max the first hit die of any character. (So the 5+15 x 8 would actually be 10 + 8(15) + 7(5.5) = 168.5.)

ok so a 12th lv fighter would be 10(starting HD)+ (5.5x11=60.5)+48(4con x12)=118.5

[Deca4531]

It's worth noting that ECL (Effective Character Level) is calculated as such: Class levels + Level Adjustment + Racial HitDice.

So a 1st level Barbarian (Natural Lycanthrope) Were-Badger is effectively a 5th level character. 1 Class Level + 3 Level Adjustment + 1 Racial HitDice (you add the animal hitdice for lycanthropes) = 5

well like I said I don't take a class lv, just joe shmow get affected with a lot of horrible, evil sh*t. and lycan still grants me the HD of the creature. so a werebrear without a class still has 5HD and 2LA (for afflicted) for ECL 7.

[Hammerpriest]

Another thing that was mentioned before is that if your build doesn't have a specific purpose even in combat, you're just going to be a big ball of HP, and LA in fights without meaningfully contributing. Sure you'll pass any fort save, and your obscene Strength bonus means you'll always hit with a two handed weapon, (consider picking up Pounce, Power Attack, Shock Trooper etc. if you're at a loss for what to do.) but you still run head long into the lack of versatility commonly faced by most melee characters. More melee class levels won't solve this, but they could help give another option, or make you that much better at whatever it is you want to focus on.

Edit: Also, run a calculation assuming 1st level of any martial non RHD PC is using Barb 1. Max the d12 and picks up improved trip and pounce with the spirit lion and wolf totem make it a go to for any martial. Not a huge difference but that's generally what I'd do if playing a martial.

[Deca4531]

Another thing that was mentioned before is that if your build doesn't have a specific purpose even in combat, you're just going to be a big ball of HP, and LA in fights without meaningfully contributing. Sure you'll pass any fort save, and your obscene Strength bonus means you'll always hit with a two handed weapon, (consider picking up Pounce, Power Attack, Shock Trooper etc. if you're at a loss for what to do.) but you still run head long into the lack of versatility commonly faced by most melee characters. More melee class levels won't solve this, but they could help give another option, or make you that much better at whatever it is you want to focus on.

Edit: Also, run a calculation assuming 1st level of any martial non RHD PC is using Barb 1. Max the d12 and picks up improved trip and pounce with the spirit lion and wolf totem make it a go to for any martial. Not a huge difference but that's generally what I'd do if playing a martial.

Well im not saying I don't have a purpose or focus, I was more asking if I loose anything that any other melee class would loose. I know my damage alone would trump what most combinations of feats could do, and as the party tank little is able to be much of a threat to me (the templates give me something like 7 or 8 regen a round and a DR of about 15). but outside of combat I imagen I wouldn't be much use other then the equivalent of a pack of horses or a crane/bull dozer.

[Hammerpriest]

Well, I'm not so sure about damage superiority. With a STR of 50 you get a whopping +30 to hit and damage but that's at ECL 12. By then, Uberchargers are racking up crazy plusses in addition to multipliers on their damage allowing them to surpass your damage output should they be able to charge. And, this is something that hinges on getting pounce, so unless you have a template that grants that, you'd need at least one class level minimum, maybe more.

Also, what's your reflex/will save?

[Deca4531]

Generally speaking, yes, you end up with fewer capabilities than other characters by stacking these templates, and what you gain tends to be easily replicated with magic. Polymorph by itself provides a party with all the pure-strength bruising it could ever need. At least until the magic shuts off, in which case you're still a rampaging behemoth with all of your extraordinary capabilities, while polymorphed party members are often rendered fragile monkeys (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0627.html).

(Unless they have anti-antimagic contingencies in place, but that's probably not as common in practice as it is discussed on these boards.)

This spell functions like alter self, except that you change the willing subject into another form of living creature. The new form may be of the same type as the subject or any of the following types: aberration, animal, dragon, fey, giant, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, ooze, plant, or vermin. The assumed form can’t have more Hit Dice than your caster level (or the subject’s HD, whichever is lower), to a maximum of 15 HD at 15th level. You can’t cause a subject to assume a form smaller than Fine, nor can you cause a subject to assume an incorporeal or gaseous form. The subject’s creature type and subtype (if any) change to match the new form.

Upon changing, the subject regains lost hit points as if it had rested for a night (though this healing does not restore temporary ability damage and provide other benefits of resting; and changing back does not heal the subject further). If slain, the subject reverts to its original form, though it remains dead.

The subject gains the Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores of the new form but retains its own Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. It also gains all extraordinary special attacks possessed by the form but does not gain the extraordinary special qualities possessed by the new form or any supernatural or spell-like abilities.


it order to = high power like that your looking at already being at decently high lvs already, and I don't see anything in the spell to allow for augmenting the creature. so at 7th lv (wizard) you could turn a party member into a werebear but they would lack the added DR, AC, stat and perks of what the other templates can give you.

[John Longarrow]

Deca4531

For lycantropes, you get a 1st level in a class before you add the template. Your con boost for being a were only applies to the HPs you get for that racial HD.

For this example were going to use an average human that got bit by a werewolf.

werewolf get +4 to Con and 2 HD.
1st level = Fighter, HD = d10, 10 HP.
1st Racial HD, HD = D8, HP =4.5 +2 (+4 to con gives +2 HP) = 6.5
2st Racial HD, HD = D8, HP =4.5 +2 (+4 to con gives +2 HP) = 6.5

As an ECL 5 character (afflicted), they have on average 23 HPs.
When they take their next level in fighter, they don't get a bonus for CON since they only get that bonus only applies to racial HD. If they were to take a level in Animal (DM allowing) then they would get it.

P.S. what are all of the other templates you are adding? Only character I've put together like this was a 1/2 troll mongrel folk. Still not sure how her mom got that troll drunk...

[Deca4531]

Well, I'm not so sure about damage superiority. With a STR of 50 you get a whopping +30 to hit and damage but that's at ECL 12. By then, Uberchargers are racking up crazy plusses in addition to multipliers on their damage allowing them to surpass your damage output should they be able to charge. And, this is something that hinges on getting pounce, so unless you have a template that grants that, you'd need at least one class level minimum, maybe more.

Also, what's your reflex/will save?

I don't have my character notes with me at the moment so I cant say for sure what my will and reflex are, but I know my reflex was comparable to the rest of the party (save for the rogue) and my will was kind of low before any magical enhancement.

and yes I do gain pounce and rend from the template as well as 2 claws and a bite.

[Karnith]

it order to = high power like that your looking at already being at decently high lvs already, and I don't see anything in the spell to allow for augmenting the creature.
Well, you can get stats like those of a War Troll (MMIII) or a Bladerager Troll (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20070705b&page=3) (MMV), or (depending on the size of the person you're transforming) the attack modes of a Hydra (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/hydra.htm) through Polymorph. So it's pretty easy to get great stuff through Polymorph, even at low levels.

They might not compare to what you can get from a powerful race or template, of course, but Polymorph can be obscenely strong.

so at 7th lv (wizard) you could turn a party member into a werebear but they would lack the added DR, AC, stat and perks of what the other templates can give you.
Well, actually, no, he couldn't do that because you can't use Polymorph to turn into a templated creature, and because you can't cause a creature to turn into something with more HD than it has at the time of casting (and since lycanthrope adds HD, you could never turn something into a lycanthrope version of itself).

[Deca4531]

Deca4531

For lycantropes, you get a 1st level in a class before you add the template. Your con boost for being a were only applies to the HPs you get for that racial HD.

For this example were going to use an average human that got bit by a werewolf.

werewolf get +4 to Con and 2 HD.
1st level = Fighter, HD = d10, 10 HP.
1st Racial HD, HD = D8, HP =4.5 +2 (+4 to con gives +2 HP) = 6.5
2st Racial HD, HD = D8, HP =4.5 +2 (+4 to con gives +2 HP) = 6.5

As an ECL 5 character (afflicted), they have on average 23 HPs.
When they take their next level in fighter, they don't get a bonus for CON since they only get that bonus only applies to racial HD. If they were to take a level in Animal (DM allowing) then they would get it.

P.S. what are all of the other templates you are adding? Only character I've put together like this was a 1/2 troll mongrel folk. Still not sure how her mom got that troll drunk...

hmm, I haven't read anything about con mod only applying to RHD. I know it would only effect you while transformed. can you so me where you found this?

also, as I said before, I don't have my notes with me at the moment but the templates I remember were Magebred, dungeon born, feral(or savage I forget) creature, broodguard and a few others that can be used depending on the games starting lv and ending lv.

[John Longarrow]

Away from books, but it is in the description in the Monster Manual

[Deca4531]

Well, actually, no, he couldn't do that because you can't use Polymorph to turn into a templated creature, and because you can't cause a creature to turn into something with more HD than it has at the time of casting (and since lycanthrope adds HD, you could never turn something into a lycanthrope version of itself).

lol I meant to say "Direbear" I know you cant poly someone into a lycan, my bad.

[Karnith]

hmm, I haven't read anything about con mod only applying to RHD. I know it would only effect you while transformed. can you so me where you found this?
It's in the Lycanthrope template description. Per the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lycanthrope.htm#creatingALycanthrope):
Hit Dice and Hit Points
Same as the base creature plus those of the base animal. To calculate total hit points, apply Constitution modifiers according to the score the lycanthrope has in each form.
So your Animal Hit Dice from being a Were-Wolverine will get the benefit of the +8 Constitution from Wolverine form, but your normal (class) HD will not.

[Deca4531]

It's in the Lycanthrope template description. Per the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lycanthrope.htm#creatingALycanthrope):
So your Animal Hit Dice from being a Were-Wolverine will get the benefit of the +8 Constitution from taking Wolverine form, but your normal (class) HD will not.

I think I may have misunderstood the post. I interpreted him as meaning my the con bonus from lycan template only applied to the HD gained from the animal and not any following ones.

[Chronos]

Quoth Karnith:

So your Animal Hit Dice from being a Were-Wolverine will get the benefit of the +8 Constitution from Wolverine form, but your normal (class) HD will not.
It doesn't say anything like that.

[Deca4531]

It doesn't say anything like that.

yeah I didn't think that sounded right, I have never seen a mechanic in the game that caused con to apply to HD A and B but not C and D. obviously your human form will not get these bonuses but in form that con should apply to EVERY HD I have, class or racial.

[Karnith]

It doesn't say anything like that.
Reading it again, it would seem that I was paying too much attention to the examples and wasn't paying enough attention to the actual description.

yeah I didn't think that sounded right, I have never seen a mechanic in the game that caused con to apply to HD A and B but not C and D. obviously your human form will not get these bonuses but in form that con should apply to EVERY HD I have, class or racial.
Actually, changing into an Alternate Form (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#alternateForm) would not normally change your HP total, even if your Constitution score changed. With that line in the HP section of the Lycanthrope template description, it might, of course.

[Deca4531]

Reading it again, it would seem that I was paying too much attention to the examples and wasn't paying enough attention to the actual description.

Actually, changing into an Alternate Form (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#alternateForm) would not normally change your HP total, even if your Constitution score changed. With that line in the HP section of the Lycanthrope template description, it might, of course.

the template for lycan specifically states

"Hit Dice and Hit Points

Same as the base creature plus those of the base animal. To calculate total hit points, apply Constitution modifiers according to the score the lycanthrope has in each form. "

so it seems fairly clear.

[Karnith]

I am aware (now), but all of the example lycanthrope characters have their HP calculated as I described earlier. The FAQ also supports this conclusion. Hence my confusion.

[Deca4531]

I am aware (now), but all of the example lycanthrope characters have their HP calculated as I described earlier. The FAQ also supports this conclusion. Hence my confusion.

Hmm, after looking over the examples it seems I have had it wrong all these years. I assumed that you would have your class and the animal HD even when not in animal or hybred form, but not the bonus con. after looking over the description for Lycan (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lycanthrope.htm) that you retain full HD and con no matter your current form.