Fort save or TPK

[EyethatBinds]

I'm not a very nice person.

My latest trap is a CR 10 according to the rules, using the Polymorph Any Object to deadly effect. The bait is a ring in a room about 20 foot square with mechanical hidden doors designed to lock when the magical trap is sprung. The party naturally investigates the ring sitting on a pedestal and the nearest person must make a fortitude save or be turned into Carbon Monoxide, which does not directly kill that person if they fail the save. The spell is set to a 10 minute timer to target another small sized creature or larger to do the same.

Now the room closes both doors, aiming for airtight, but ultimately it's not too vital as long as the doors are closed. Anyone besides the first person turned into the gas will then be forced to breathe in carbon monoxide in a concentration to turn the air in the room to 2% CO. This causes unconsciousness within 2 to 3 breaths and death in less than three minutes.

Since Polymorph Any Object can turn things into a larger mass than the original object, if the whole party is inside the room they'll probably be brought unconscious before they can realize what's happened. CO is odorless and colorless, so the most likely thing to conclude is that the first victim was teleported, turned invisible, or some other illusion was cast.

The spell will only last for 20 minutes as a humanoid has no relation to a cloud of gas. The spell reset would then turn one of the dead bodies in the room to carbon monoxide, killing the remaining character with only a few huffs.

I've probably put a bit too much thought into this and since this would lead to my players lynching me, I'm just going to post it as a hilarious means to end a game in a few minutes.

[Story]

Does anyone actually play with PAO?

Anyway, as long as you're bringing chemistry into the game, there's much nastier things you could turn into. But down that way lies madness and dead catgirls.

[faircoin]

Does anyone actually play with PAO?

Only in games where the DM thinks crusaders are OP, monks get too many class features, and monks w/ VoP is gamebreaking.

[Fax Celestis]

Why don't you cut out the middleman and make the trap just cast a targeted spell of drown?

[EyethatBinds]

Why don't you cut out the middleman and make the trap just cast a targeted spell of drown?

Lower save, players will know what hit them, and it's not quite as funny.

[ahenobarbi]

Minor creation antimatter rope to destroy continents!

[Hammerpriest]

Until you realize one of your players has a spell which lets them survive without oxygen, or an item. Which are fairly common items as well. But the real question is why TPK your party like that other than for ****s and giggles? Wouldn't that really PO your players?

[kabreras]

Did you see the stats of carbon monoxide anywhere in D&D rules ?
If not well there is no carbon monoxyde in D&D and you cant do it.
bringing 21th century chemistry knowledge in a medieval world is bad and totally idiot. The rules have enough ways to screw your players to not bring arbitrary stuff in that doesnt exist in the world.

[Sponson]

Did you see the stats of carbon monoxide anywhere in D&D rules ?
If not well there is no carbon monoxyde in D&D and you cant do it.
bringing 21th century chemistry knowledge in a medieval world is just plain stupid.

Precisely, rules in DnD are an abstraction of physics mixed with fantasy, and so cannot be used to model actual physics and chemical reactions. Technically, in DnD, trees don't produce air, and there are no rules for breathing (only mentions here and there that a certain race need not breathe). You simply being to suffocate in certain situations.

Suffocation rules exist in certain locations and events, and only in those locations and events (such as in a bag of holding). Filling a room with carbon monoxide does not produce suffocation. Filling a room with Aboleth Mucus, however, is totally different.

Also, if you house rule that carbon monoxide does indeed suffocate living creatures, then the problem arises as to how a wizard (who deals with magic, not science) could deduce the existence of c. monoxide. Then finally, why not simply PAO a player into an equivalent mass of Polonium or Plutonium and then effortlessly write rules for radiation poisoning? I'm sure that a solid mass of plutonium could slay even big T pretty indefinitely.

[Chronos]

You're asking the wrong question. When you ask "Can the DM kill the party?", the answer is always "Yes, of course he can.". The questions you should be asking are ones like "Is this a good challenge?", or "Is this interesting?". Remember, the players have put a lot of effort into their characters, and finding themselves in a position where they can lose all of that to a single die roll just isn't fun even if they do make their saves.

[Hammerpriest]

Also, this trap is shut down by any form of short range teleportation to leave the room such as Dimension hop, Dimension door, et al.

[OldTrees1]

Personally I think "Resetting Fort save or everyone else dies if they need to breath" is not a CR 10 trap. The only survivors would be those that were never threatened in the first place. It feels like old Tome of Horrors but without the clues and even that was updated to have both clues and saves in 3rd edition.

[John Longarrow]

EyethatBinds,
That is a pretty boring trap. It falls into the old shool "Just kill them" mind set, and DMs can do that easily all day. You don't even need to PoA them into CO.

Plus there are half a dozen ways players can avoid this, so it is very wonky.

If you wanted something that could actually be fun, leave a lesser artifact in the room. Looks like a pedistal with the illusion of a rose floating above it. Triggered when someone tries to touch the rose. Usable once per day.

Effect is you touch the rose, you get hit by a harm spell heightened to be a 10th level spell and and empowered. Once this hits the target they get true reincarnated.

This is an item from my game that is held in high esteem by a group of druids who are obsessed with living multiple lives, so they go ahead and use it every so often to become something new. For your game, make it 1 time per year and give the players a mission to go recover it. Let the players know touching it reincarnates them into something new, then let them try to be creative in moving it without touching it.

[Phelix-Mu]

If you wanted something that could actually be fun, leave a lesser artifact in the room. Looks like a pedistal with the illusion of a rose floating above it. Triggered when someone tries to touch the rose. Usable once per day.

Effect is you touch the rose, you get hit by a harm spell heightened to be a 10th level spell and and empowered. Once this hits the target they get true reincarnated.

This is an item from my game that is held in high esteem by a group of druids who are obsessed with living multiple lives, so they go ahead and use it every so often to become something new. For your game, make it 1 time per year and give the players a mission to go recover it. Let the players know touching it reincarnates them into something new, then let them try to be creative in moving it without touching it.

Very nice. I do like that kind of problem-solving challenge. Anything to inspire my normally "blow it up" players to sit down and think for a change.

[dascarletm]

Technically, in DnD, trees don't produce air, and there are no rules for breathing (only mentions here and there that a certain race need not breathe). You simply being to suffocate in certain situations.

Sigh... I hate it when people do this,

"The world actually is in turn base format!
People can only move in 5ft increments!
etc."
instead of seeing all the rules that abstract a fantasy world, as in it works just like our world with the exception of magic.

[limejuicepowder]

Precisely, rules in DnD are an abstraction of physics mixed with fantasy, and so cannot be used to model actual physics and chemical reactions. Technically, in DnD, trees don't produce air, and there are no rules for breathing (only mentions here and there that a certain race need not breathe). You simply being to suffocate in certain situations.

Suffocation rules exist in certain locations and events, and only in those locations and events (such as in a bag of holding). Filling a room with carbon monoxide does not produce suffocation. Filling a room with Aboleth Mucus, however, is totally different.

Also, if you house rule that carbon monoxide does indeed suffocate living creatures, then the problem arises as to how a wizard (who deals with magic, not science) could deduce the existence of c. monoxide. Then finally, why not simply PAO a player into an equivalent mass of Polonium or Plutonium and then effortlessly write rules for radiation poisoning? I'm sure that a solid mass of plutonium could slay even big T pretty indefinitely.

Are you one of those people who read a rule and conclude "I can do X because it doesn't explicitly say I can't"?

Role playing games are simulations. They lay out some rules on how to resolve certain actions, but often leave a lot to the imagination. Rules-heavy systems have lots of rules dictating even very situational occurrences, while rules-light systems give only the bare-bones and leave the rest to a judgment call. However, even the most rules-heavy system can't possible cover every situation: RL is just too complex. In neither case however should the players assume that because there isn't a rule for it that the action/reaction/situation/phenomena doesn't exist.

If one were to actually take that view, many game systems would become unplayable as basic things like movement and gravity aren't explicitly explained.

[Equinox]

... according to the rules ...Carbon Monoxide ...Which sourcebook is Carbon Monoxide from, again?

[Ravens_cry]

From The Temple of Compounded Evil, the lesser known sequel of The Temple of Elemental Evil.:smalltongue:

[WebTiefling]

Unless a campaign is "high tech", then things that come with a high tech world shouldn't be allowed.

The Forgotten Realms world doesn't know how to make things like steam engines, guns, computer chips, advanced metallurgy ... and things like specific molecules.

Bringing in things like carbon monoxide is just like bringing in knowledge of how to create modern rifles. It's wildly outside the world's knowledge.

If you're running a "modern" campaign where technology is at least up to the 1880s or thereabouts, then sure, go for carbon monoxide traps.

If you're running a campaign where the world's technology is around 1000 AD, then *BLEEP* NO you shouldn't use carbon monoxide traps!!

[Deophaun]

Lower save, players will know what hit them, and it's not quite as funny.
Spellcraft checks are a thing, you know?

[Phelix-Mu]

For a more interesting variation of this Fort save or die:

- The trap still uses PaO. It's an ancient trap. Long ago, they decided to transform the target into some kind of spores.

- Now, the ancient trap is somewhat on the fritz. A target may become any of the following on failed Fort save:

1.) Sentient spores. These spores "infect" the other party members. The target now exists in a kind of limbo; the infection is....let's go with some kind of inhaled Fort save to resist, non-poisonous...it's basically a fungal symbiote. PCs that are infected can "hear" the spore-PC in their minds, due to a low-level telepathy field with the host. The campaign now must find a way to extract the spore-PC. If no one is infected, the the spores must be detected (Scent?) and captured for the person to be returned to normal.

2.) Green slime. The target becomes a form of awakened green slime.

3.) Woodling template/some plant-themed template. The target gains the template.

4.) The target gains 1d4 plant grafts (Magic of Eberron), each exacting only half the normal penalty. They can be removed, but the parts they replaced will be missing until the use of regenerate or similar magic.

Still pretty malicious, but a more interesting set of outcomes than "mwahaha, you're all DEAD."

[kabreras]

Unless a campaign is "high tech", then things that come with a high tech world shouldn't be allowed.

The Forgotten Realms world doesn't know how to make things like steam engines, guns, computer chips, advanced metallurgy ... and things like specific molecules.

Bringing in things like carbon monoxide is just like bringing in knowledge of how to create modern rifles. It's wildly outside the world's knowledge.

If you're running a "modern" campaign where technology is at least up to the 1880s or thereabouts, then sure, go for carbon monoxide traps.

If you're running a campaign where the world's technology is around 1000 AD, then *BLEEP* NO you shouldn't use carbon monoxide traps!!

Exactelly that.

Do not bring your 21th century knowledge in a world that only have 9th century knowledge...

[nyjastul69]

Also realize that a pedestal with a single ring on it in an otherwise empty room has trap written all over it. Your players may simply avoid the room if at all possible.

[Abaddona]

Or if you do bring modern knowledge - let the players know beforehand and don't be surprised when they weaponize it.
To be precise: making something like that out of the blue is like changing rules mid-play.
What's worse - when players start using those rules they can derange whole campaign.

[dascarletm]

Unless a campaign is "high tech", then things that come with a high tech world shouldn't be allowed.

The Forgotten Realms world doesn't know how to make things like steam engines, guns, computer chips, advanced metallurgy ... and things like specific molecules.

Bringing in things like carbon monoxide is just like bringing in knowledge of how to create modern rifles. It's wildly outside the world's knowledge.

If you're running a "modern" campaign where technology is at least up to the 1880s or thereabouts, then sure, go for carbon monoxide traps.

If you're running a campaign where the world's technology is around 1000 AD, then *BLEEP* NO you shouldn't use carbon monoxide traps!!

I disagree.

Technological advances are vastly different than having carbon monoxide be a thing. Carbon monoxide existed back then, even if what it was wasn't known. It could easily be called something else, for example:
Sweet oil of vitriol, or Ether, or more accurately diethyl ether, existed long before its true nature was discovered, ~1275.

A computer, and a chemical that has existed long before humankind stepped out of the primordial waters is vastly different.

[Icewraith]

Instead of polymorphing a person into carbon monoxide, go with something recognizable and bury the party under a cave-in of dead catgirls.

You even still get to use the suffocation rules.

[John Longarrow]

dascarletm,

While I can appreciate the point, that also leaves steam turbines on the table for the PCs though. Hero made his steam engine before the Romans marched on Acre.

[John Longarrow]

Instead of polymorphing a person into carbon monoxide, go with something recognizable and bury the party under a cave-in of dead catgirls.

You even still get to use the suffocation rules.

Hmm... Party with a necromancer and a room full of dead cat girls...
Heheheheheh Muhhhawaawawwawawwa!!!![/

[bekeleven]

1.) Sentient spores. These spores "infect" the other party members. The target now exists in a kind of limbo; the infection is....let's go with some kind of inhaled Fort save to resist, non-poisonous...it's basically a fungal symbiote. PCs that are infected can "hear" the spore-PC in their minds, due to a low-level telepathy field with the host. The campaign now must find a way to extract the spore-PC. If no one is infected, the the spores must be detected (Scent?) and captured for the person to be returned to normal.
You may want to look into Gas Spores from Lords of Madness.

[Lord Vukodlak]

CO gas is not an object or a creature it does not meet the definition for either and thus it is impossible to create via polymorph any object.

Ill Regardless of how fast it kills in real life, the PC's get a saving throw to avoid going unconscious and then hold their breath. If a PC can fall two hundred feet land on solid rock, stand up dust himself off and walk away you can't say he couldn't make a fortitude save to avoid passing out from high CO concentration.

[WebTiefling]

I disagree.

Technological advances are vastly different than having carbon monoxide be a thing. Carbon monoxide existed back then, even if what it was wasn't known. It could easily be called something else, for example:
Sweet oil of vitriol, or Ether, or more accurately diethyl ether, existed long before its true nature was discovered, ~1275.

A computer, and a chemical that has existed long before humankind stepped out of the primordial waters is vastly different.

It's not the existence of carbon monoxide - it's the ability of anyone to know about (in the FR setting). Carbon monoxide is a very difficult gas to separate out from the air. (it's very different in that regard from your example of "Ether") It wasn't until the 1800s that humans figured out what carbon monoxide is, and the FR is operating at a technology level between 500 BC and 1000 AD.

They might know that sitting in a small, airtight room with a fire will kill you after a long time, but they haven't the foggiest clue that the deadly part is the invisible, tasteless, odorless, 1-part-in-a-thousand molecule.

Since they don't know it exists, they sure as heck shouldn't be able to transform a person into that "something".

[Ravens_cry]

If a DM pulled this, I'd start mixing my suspiciously large supply of sulphur, charcoal and potassium nitrate together in a suspiciously specific ratio, because that's centuries less anachronistic knowledge than carbon *bleeping* monoxide!

[kabreras]

If a DM pulled this, I'd start mixing my suspiciously large supply of sulphur, charcoal and potassium nitrate together in a suspiciously specific ratio, because that's centuries less anachronistic knowledge than carbon *bleeping* monoxide!

Items that you happend to have in your spell component pouch :D

[WebTiefling]

If a DM pulled this, I'd start mixing my suspiciously large supply of sulphur, charcoal and potassium nitrate together in a suspiciously specific ratio, because that's centuries less anachronistic knowledge than carbon *bleeping* monoxide!

Word! :smallcool:

[dascarletm]

dascarletm,

While I can appreciate the point, that also leaves steam turbines on the table for the PCs though. Hero made his steam engine before the Romans marched on Acre.

Maybe, maybe not. If a pc tried to build a steam engine, that could or could not be seen as metagaming. Which may be something encouraged/allowed or not allowed depending on the group involved. If an INT 32 character is smart enough to advance the technology of the world, or at least build something more advanced than the current standard is up to DM adjuration.
Though according to my reasoning using carbon monoxide would be a similar metagame. My reply to WebTiefling may address that.


It's not the existence of carbon monoxide - it's the ability of anyone to know about (in the FR setting). Carbon monoxide is a very difficult gas to separate out from the air. (it's very different in that regard from your example of "Ether") It wasn't until the 1800s that humans figured out what carbon monoxide is, and the FR is operating at a technology level between 500 BC and 1000 AD.
FR may or may not be the setting. It wasn't specifically said in the OP and I don't recall it being brought up later in the thread, so I don't know.
Regardless, while the fact that CO is difficult to separate from air in real life, which probably led to it not being discovered till later, FR, and any DnD setting is not running on your claimed technology level.

Any DnD setting is running on a level not model-able by RL standards. It has magic that can do most anything. If magic can be used, then the difficulties in separation techniques we know to be true do not stand. Heck, I can magic most anything to appear out of thin air. :smalltongue:



They might know that sitting in a small, airtight room with a fire will kill you after a long time, but they haven't the foggiest clue that the deadly part is the invisible, tasteless, odorless, 1-part-in-a-thousand molecule.

Since they don't know it exists, they sure as heck shouldn't be able to transform a person into that "something".


True, molecular theory doesn't exist, thus the trap maker wouldn't know about it. However, a situation could arise similar to my example ether, where it is discovered early by a different name.

Volcanic activity gives off CO. Someone could have seen this gases effects, became a wizard, and attempted to recreate what he saw. While far-fetched it isn't impossible.

I wouldn't ever do this personally in my games, I'd just use smoke if I ever wanted to do something similar. The point is, I don't think anyone can say it is wrong to have it. Different strokes for different catgirls.

[Fax Celestis]

Different strokes for different catgirls.

Gross.

White text of post enlengthening +1

[Ravens_cry]

Items that you happend to have in your spell component pouch :D

Interestingly enough, yes. The bat guano would need a little refining, but it's all there.

[kabreras]

For the record you cant PAO something into a gas IIRC

A gas is not a targetable or definissable object so not a valid denomination for a PAO spell

[Segev]

Here's the thing: CO is only "odorless and colorless" under relatively unusual conditions in the real world. Somebody replicating "what he saw a volcano do" would PaO his target into "volcanic gas," or probably a cloud of choking smoke.

"Poison gas" is perfectly fine in D&D, but it should be green or yellow and obviously "poisonous" to the audience - your players. It's part of the genre conventions, and the mythic nature of the setting.

[AKA_Bait]

I've probably put a bit too much thought into this and since this would lead to my players lynching me, I'm just going to post it as a hilarious means to end a game in a few minutes.

I'm not really sure why killing the whole party is hilarious. I mean, there are virtually innumerable ways to TPK a party...

As a trap for use, I must agree with the rest of the thread that it fails badly at anything but instilling a deep sense of unfairness in your players.

[Story]

Carbon monoxide existed back then, even if what it was wasn't known.

Except that D&D explicitly doesn't run on real life physics.

[Jade_Tarem]

You're asking the wrong question. When you ask "Can the DM kill the party?", the answer is always "Yes, of course he can.". The questions you should be asking are ones like "Is this a good challenge?", or "Is this interesting?". Remember, the players have put a lot of effort into their characters, and finding themselves in a position where they can lose all of that to a single die roll just isn't fun even if they do make their saves.

+1. Your job as DM is not to kill the party. If you make a habit of using traps like this, your players will do one of two things.

1. Create a checklist of things they take a 20 to go looking for every time they enter a room. On it will be every concievable form of death and dismemberment in both DnD and real life, written in the vaguest terms possible. They aren't going to get lazy or bored with it, since while their characters have to do a lot of work, they don't (thus distancing the players from the characters and ruining suspension of disbelief). If you attempt to work around that with the imposition of a time limit, they'll likely either abandon the quest and seek ones that don't force them to rush into doom rooms until they've leveled sufficiently to be immune to everything, or else just horse around, refusing to take the game seriously thanks to the knowledge that they can die at any moment regardless of what they do or don't do.

2. Quit and find a competent GM.

Such is the price of pitting yourself against the players. Collectively, they're probably smarter than you are, so either you'll wind up using your omnipotence to railroad them or else they'll figure out a way to nullify your deathtraps.

[Fax Celestis]

Your job as DM is not to kill the party.

Correct. Your job as a DM is to appropriately challenge the party. Occasionally this will end in player deaths--sometimes even TPKs--but that should not be the norm (barring specific kinds of high-lethality games).

[Equinox]

Carbon monoxide existed back then, even if what it was wasn't known.
The law of conservation of matter existed back then, even if it wasn't known.
Therefore, it should not be possible for a 160-lb Druid to Wild Shape into an 800-lb lion. You can't have your science and eat it too.

[Ravens_cry]

Correct. Your job as a DM is to appropriately challenge the party. Occasionally this will end in player deaths--sometimes even TPKs--but that should not be the norm (barring specific kinds of high-lethality games).
And even then, there should be an out. It might be tricky, it might be almost as risky as the trap, but it should be possible. At the very least, it should be very obvious to the players and their characters that this was a bad, bad idea. Otherwise, it's just a gloating tyrant saying 'Rocks fall, everybody dies' over and over again.

[WebTiefling]

If an INT 32 character is smart enough to advance the technology of the world, or at least build something more advanced than the current standard is up to DM adjuration.

Of course, everything is up to DM adjudication. We're talking about what is good for DMs to do. Carbon monoxide spells break every measure of reasonable, even in D&D world. MAYBE if he's running a very technologically advanced Eberron campaign, but nothing suggested that. I'm assuming it's a standard FR-style world.

In the D&D world, there are LOTS of people throughout the ages with 30/40/50+ Int, and none of them came up with anything beyond roughly 1000 AD. Suddenly tossing in some completely out-of-genre thing that kills the party is a huge dink move. Listen to Will Wheaton! :smallbiggrin:


Regardless, while the fact that CO is difficult to separate from air in real life, .... magic that can do most anything.

Yes, magic can do almost anything. But, again, in the FR-style world, Magic has never made anything even remotely close to knowledge of the CO molecule. Springing it on the party is breaking the entire concept of the FR-style, swords and sorcery-based world. As others said - that immediately opens up the world of dynamite, guns, rockets, airplanes, nuclear bombs, etc.


Volcanic activity gives off CO. Someone could have seen this gases effects, became a wizard, and attempted to recreate what he saw. While far-fetched it isn't impossible.

No, the wizard would generate a white, foggy collection of gasses that is poisonous and has a tiny trace of CO along with everything else. THAT fits in the whole swords and sorcery concept. Extracting the odorless, completely clear, tasteless, already-existing-in-regular-air molecule CO is outside everything except D&D Modern.


The point is, I don't think anyone can say it is wrong to have it. Different strokes for different catgirls.

"Wrong"? No.
A jerk move that doesn't fit anything else? Yes.

[John Longarrow]

Maybe, maybe not. If a pc tried to build a steam engine, that could or could not be seen as metagaming. Which may be something encouraged/allowed or not allowed depending on the group involved. If an INT 32 character is smart enough to advance the technology of the world, or at least build something more advanced than the current standard is up to DM adjuration.
Though according to my reasoning using carbon monoxide would be a similar metagame. My reply to WebTiefling may address that.

For cabon monoxide, yes that would be metagame. No way for someone to infer that it is there.

For a simple steam engine? Not so much. Greeks and Romans understood you could make "Wind" if you boil water. The two missing pieces are the windmill and a method of making steam that was commercially viable. Romans used water wheels, but windmills didn't come around until the middle ages.

The other missing piece, commercial quantities of steam, would be trivial with permanent magic items. Be it a bound elemental, a permanent Heat Metal, or something else, once you can produce heat in large amounts you can boil lots of water to make steam.

Once you have a basic engine working, then you can logically work on finding ways to make it more efficient.

End result, a functioning steam turbine made with state of the art mideval technology was possible, but not practical due to the excessive use of fuel. With magic replacing wood, you remove the fuel limit and can go to town.

[kaminiwa]

Items that you happend to have in your spell component pouch :D

And therefor available in arbitrarily large quantities as a free action, no less!

---

As others have said, you'd have to explain how the maker of the trap even knew about Carbon Monoxide. And PAO only affects "objects and creatures", which I would rule eliminates gasses.

The CO would take time to diffuse through the room.

PCs can hold their breath for QUITE a long time.

---

By the general "flow" and "style" of the rules, I'd treat it like an inhaled poison. Probably something like 1d6 INT damage per round, once it had reached sufficient concentrations. Possibly DC 5 Fort save, +2 DC/round to represent the concentration going up?

In short, D&D is a heroic game that brazenly defies science - a rogue can take ZERO damage from a 20' explosion around him. A monk can take zero damage from a 200' fall. A wizard can transform an ordinary human in to a pebble without "conservation of energy" causing a massive explosion.

So, while you can introduce science, I'd say there's still a sense that one ought to be "fair" about it and work it within the existing rules. A conventional inhaled poison is within the rules. Death with no save OR warning OR clues, is bad form - it's breaking the rules about having fun and giving the players a fair chance.

(Of course, if you're playing Paranoia, go for it. Or you otherwise have players that would legitimately laugh and give you credit for a creative trap. I have never met such players outside of Paranoia, though.)

[Brookshw]

Kinda feel like I'm the only one who read the op as "it would be a **** move that I won't do, but I'll share the idea in case it gives people a chuckle". Maybe not.

[dascarletm]

Gross.


Yes.


Except that D&D explicitly doesn't run on real life physics.
DnD is a game. In this game there are rules which, to varying degrees of success, represent a fictional world. The general assumption is that it is being used to represent a fantasy world, which, despite the use of magic runs more or less according to the observed physics of the real world. It doesn't have to, but gravity/time remaining constant, and other things we see as "normal," is usually the staple. I would see a fantasy setting as exactly like our world except for X. Where X is whatever creates it a fantasy.


The law of conservation of matter existed back then, even if it wasn't known.
Therefore, it should not be possible for a 160-lb Druid to Wild Shape into an 800-lb lion. You can't have your science and eat it too.

Let me break that argument down...

1) The law of conservation of Energy does not hold true in a DnD setting.
2) The law of conservation of Energy is common knowledge today, but not in the medieval time-period.
3) The existence carbon monoxide is common knowledge today, but not in the medieval time-period.

Therefore...
The existence of carbon monoxide does not hold true in a DnD setting.
Using this line of logic anything that wasn't common knowledge in the medieval time-period completely, flat-out, does not exist.


Of course, everything is up to DM adjudication. We're talking about what is good for DMs to do. Carbon monoxide spells break every measure of reasonable, even in D&D world. MAYBE if he's running a very technologically advanced Eberron campaign, but nothing suggested that. I'm assuming it's a standard FR-style world.

Carbon monoxide could of been replaced with X, where X is any other dnd friendly inhaled poison.
But I see your point.


In the D&D world, there are LOTS of people throughout the ages with 30/40/50+ Int, and none of them came up with anything beyond roughly 1000 AD. Suddenly tossing in some completely out-of-genre thing that kills the party is a huge dink move. Listen to Will Wheaton! :smallbiggrin:

Yes, magic can do almost anything. But, again, in the FR-style world, Magic has never made anything even remotely close to knowledge of the CO molecule. Springing it on the party is breaking the entire concept of the FR-style, swords and sorcery-based world. As others said - that immediately opens up the world of dynamite, guns, rockets, airplanes, nuclear bombs, etc.

I don't see it as slippery as a slope as you are implying, but I do agree it would break the genre of all but a few games.


No, the wizard would generate a white, foggy collection of gasses that is poisonous and has a tiny trace of CO along with everything else. THAT fits in the whole swords and sorcery concept. Extracting the odorless, completely clear, tasteless, already-existing-in-regular-air molecule CO is outside everything except D&D Modern.

I see your point.


"Wrong"? No.
A jerk move that doesn't fit anything else? Yes.

I agree with you. I don't think that this sort of thing should be used in any "normal" setting.

[khachaturian]

living things in the D&D universe obviously do not rely on hemoglobin, or else blood loss from combat damage would degrade oxygen carrying capacity and the ability to fight. therefore, carbon monoxide is nonlethal. there.

i cannot imagine anybody wanting to play a game with you as GM.

[Sith_Happens]

This spell functions like polymorph, except...

...nor can you cause a subject to assume an incorporeal or gaseous form.

You can't PAO things into gases.

[molten_dragon]

I'm not a very nice person.

My latest trap is a CR 10 according to the rules, using the Polymorph Any Object to deadly effect. The bait is a ring in a room about 20 foot square with mechanical hidden doors designed to lock when the magical trap is sprung. The party naturally investigates the ring sitting on a pedestal and the nearest person must make a fortitude save or be turned into Carbon Monoxide, which does not directly kill that person if they fail the save. The spell is set to a 10 minute timer to target another small sized creature or larger to do the same.

Now the room closes both doors, aiming for airtight, but ultimately it's not too vital as long as the doors are closed. Anyone besides the first person turned into the gas will then be forced to breathe in carbon monoxide in a concentration to turn the air in the room to 2% CO. This causes unconsciousness within 2 to 3 breaths and death in less than three minutes.

Since Polymorph Any Object can turn things into a larger mass than the original object, if the whole party is inside the room they'll probably be brought unconscious before they can realize what's happened. CO is odorless and colorless, so the most likely thing to conclude is that the first victim was teleported, turned invisible, or some other illusion was cast.

The spell will only last for 20 minutes as a humanoid has no relation to a cloud of gas. The spell reset would then turn one of the dead bodies in the room to carbon monoxide, killing the remaining character with only a few huffs.

I've probably put a bit too much thought into this and since this would lead to my players lynching me, I'm just going to post it as a hilarious means to end a game in a few minutes.

The only problem with that is that carbon monoxide doesn't exist in D&D. The closet thing you can come to it is probably an inhaled poison, probably with a relatively low save DC, so it's unlikely to kill your players.

[Ravens_cry]

This spell functions like polymorph, except...

...nor can you cause a subject to assume an incorporeal or gaseous form.
You can't PAO things into gases.
Oh, I know it's being said several times, but it needs to be said again.
Not only is this poor game mastership, not only is this completely anachronistic and opens whole cans of worms you probably do not want opened, but it's also against the <expletive redacted/> rules!

[Daer]

I don't think it would be very good idea give players item they can use to turn any enemy they meet into mere gas.

and as said i bit doubt gas would count as object.

[Deophaun]

It doesn't have to, but gravity/time remaining constant, and other things we see as "normal," is usually the staple. I would see a fantasy setting as exactly like our world except for X. Where X is whatever creates it a fantasy.
X is that chemistry does not exist. Alchemy does. The periodic table doesn't exist. In its stead is Aristotelian physics. So, no carbon monoxide.

[Equinox]

By the way, if the trap was legal, or in good taste (and it's neither:smallmad:), it could have been made even worse by not even targeting a PC, but simply Polymorphing a large rock in the middle of the room into Carbon Monoxide. No Fort save, just TPK.

[dascarletm]

X is that chemistry does not exist. Alchemy does. The periodic table doesn't exist. In its stead is Aristotelian physics. So, no carbon monoxide.


I'm sorry I didn't know you were the grand arbiter of every possible campaign setting that could ever exist. I shouldn't of had strayed from your law.


How absurd.

[Arbane]

If you bring Carbon Monoxide into your game, you'd better be prepared to add adequate ventilation ducts to EVERY UNDERGROUND LAIR EVER.

Just saying. Players can play the Realism Game, too.

[icefractal]

I don't know why players building a steam engine would be something to be afraid of. Once magic is on the table, there are dozens of perpetual motion engines you can easily build. So really, you have to go with something like:
A) Perpetual engines do exist, and large enough cities have them. In the absence of monsters, evil gods, etc., this might very well make the world a paradise. As is, it at least keeps things afloat.
B) Magic is an evolving field, and the discoveries that allow the creation of such engines are fairly new. Maybe the PCs will be the first to build one.
C) Evil gods / demons / whatever go around actively sabotaging such things.

[kabreras]

Originally Posted by Polymorph Any Object
This spell functions like polymorph, except...


Originally Posted by Polymorph
...nor can you cause a subject to assume an incorporeal or gaseous form.
You can't PAO things into gases.You can't PAO things into gases.

We have a winer !

[WebTiefling]

I don't know why players building a steam engine would be something to be afraid of. Once magic is on the table, there are dozens of perpetual motion engines you can easily build. So really, you have to go with something like:
A) Perpetual engines do exist, and large enough cities have them. In the absence of monsters, evil gods, etc., this might very well make the world a paradise. As is, it at least keeps things afloat.
B) Magic is an evolving field, and the discoveries that allow the creation of such engines are fairly new. Maybe the PCs will be the first to build one.
C) Evil gods / demons / whatever go around actively sabotaging such things.

Have you heard of the "Tippyverse"? That is a world where magic is applied to "technology" in a full and complete manner, in the same way this concept of turning things into CO.

That's not a world most people want to play in. That's why players building steam engines is a big deal in a swords and sorcery setting. It's metagaming that opens up a Pandora's Box which instantly allows the players unlimited gold.

That sort of ruins most games.

(though turning things into a gas with PaO is against the freaking rules so this guy's idea is a moot point)

But, yes, perpetual motion machines of all sorts do need to have some reason that they aren't ubiquitous, providing infinite food and work to everyone.

I don't think evil gods/demons sabotaging things is the answer because 1) the good gods/angels would be opposing them, and 2) the wizards can send any interfering entities packing.

I have some homebrew concepts which slows that stuff down, based on the idea that magic requires sentience to drive it. Magic left alone without constant sentient oversight gang aft a-gley.

[EyethatBinds]

While I do find the argument of how terrible a DM I am a bit funny, I did explicitly state in my first post I'd never do this, unless the players really really piss me off.

Secondly, there are rules that support using deadly gases and having knowledge of them. It's covered in Knowledge: Dungeoneering, greater details covered in the Forgotten Realms supplement Underdark. Though page 107 does mention that should get a save, should also check a DC 15 survival check, and probably shouldn't die instantly.

However, the objections raised so far are somewhat irrelevant. Carbon Monoxide can be discovered, and thus reproduced in a colorless form through the spell in sufficient quantities to kill quickly. So it's entirely possible to create the trap, it just probably should involve some format of saves.

[Hammerpriest]

Except you couldn't use the trap as written no matter what because PAO doesn't work that way as noted earlier in the thread. In addition, because there about a gajillion ways for a somewhat competent party to escape, there's no real reason for the trap unless you place it at the end of a long dungeon crawl.

Really, it'd be easier to have a door over an overstretched bag of holding with that bag having a room inside. Once inside, someone locks the door and closes the bag. Line the room with an AMF and Lead walls to prevent divination and some forms of teleportation escape. Make the trap also cast Disjunction on its players every few rounds and voila. You have a trap that is difficult to escape, kills anyone in 10 minutes if they need to breathe, and destroys all of the party's gear.

Granted I would never recommend doing this to a group no matter how mad they make you.

[Fax Celestis]

Except you couldn't use the trap as written no matter what because PAO doesn't work that way as noted earlier in the thread. In addition, because there about a gajillion ways for a somewhat competent party to escape, there's no real reason for the trap unless you place it at the end of a long dungeon crawl.

Really, it'd be easier to have a door over an overstretched bag of holding with that bag having a room inside. Once inside, someone locks the door and closes the bag. Line the room with an AMF and Lead walls to prevent divination and some forms of teleportation escape. Make the trap also cast Disjunction on its players every few rounds and voila. You have a trap that is difficult to escape, kills anyone in 10 minutes if they need to breathe, and destroys all of the party's gear.

Granted I would never recommend doing this to a group no matter how mad they make you.

If you're using a bag of holding, why don't you just have a portable hole on a pulley system that lowers when you open the door...conveniently lowering into a bag of holding, thereby opening a gate to the astral plane and sucking everyone into it?1


1this is terrible DMing, btw

[ahenobarbi]

Sphere of Annihilation inside Silent Image of something players want to take.

[Hammerpriest]

If you're using a bag of holding, why don't you just have a portable hole on a pulley system that lowers when you open the door...conveniently lowering into a bag of holding, thereby opening a gate to the astral plane and sucking everyone into it?1


1this is terrible DMing, btw

True, true. I didn't think of that. You'd also have to fill the room with various animated murderous furniture in order to keep them busy long enough not to notice the suffocation.

I can just imagine the riot that I would have on my hands if I ever tried this. The best part is that any GM that does this totally deserves it. :smalleek:

[Deophaun]

I'm sorry I didn't know.
Is where you should have stopped.

[Jade_Tarem]

While I do find the argument of how terrible a DM I am a bit funny, I did explicitly state in my first post I'd never do this, unless the players really really piss me off.

That's great. Just expect the players to not be impressed by your "to be fair, I was pissed off" line of reasoning.


However, the objections raised so far are somewhat irrelevant. Carbon Monoxide can be discovered, and thus reproduced in a colorless form through the spell in sufficient quantities to kill quickly. So it's entirely possible to create the trap, it just probably should involve some format of saves.

Wouldn't it just be easier to have a can full of compressed Bromochloromethane (http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/npg/npgd0123.html) gas? Fort save or your lungs swell up and you start to choke to death on your own pulmonary tissue, which also prevents spellcasting with verbal components. All without any detectable magic. Holding one's breath is not optional - there's no room in your lungs for air. If you're going to be cute and throw real world chemicals into DnD, you might as well go for a really nasty one that your players likely haven't heard of.


True, true. I didn't think of that. You'd also have to fill the room with various animated murderous furniture in order to keep them busy long enough not to notice the suffocation.

Make it flaming animated furniture. The fire will consume the oxygen in the room and hasten the suffocation.

[John Longarrow]

While I do find the argument of how terrible a DM I am a bit funny, I did explicitly state in my first post I'd never do this, unless the players really really piss me off.


I'm thinking its the "unless the players really really piss me off." part that's got people going. The trap itself isn't nearly as bad as one from Tomb of Horrors. You see a doorway that is completly inky black. Doorway is really a sphere of annihilation. No save, PC just gone. Course the party does have a really good reason to think any entrance could be a trap, it IS the tomb of horrors!

[Hammerpriest]

Make it flaming animated furniture. The fire will consume the oxygen in the room and hasten the suffocation.

That would help for making them tougher to kill, but alas, I don't think you suffocate from a bag of holding due to lack of appropriate air source. RAW for some reason states that after 10 minutes you simply suffocate and die, with no provisions for air sources or even not having to breathe. Otherwise at 10 minutes when the air supply presumably ran out, they would at least get to hold their breath for Con x 2 rounds with a scaling DC 10 check every round thereafter in order to continue holding their breath.

I would give rules quotes but I'm AFB. Either way, I'd never expect any player a GM pulled this on to return to that table. It would suck to lose a character like this.

Edit: Found it on the SRD:

Bag of Holding
This appears to be a common cloth sack about 2 feet by 4 feet in size. The bag of holding opens into a nondimensional space: Its inside is larger than its outside dimensions. Regardless of what is put into the bag, it weighs a fixed amount. This weight, and the limits in weight and volume of the bag’s contents, depend on the bag’s type, as shown on the table below.

Bag Bag Weight Contents
Weight Limit Contents
Volume Limit Market Price
Type I 15 lb. 250 lb. 30 cu. ft. 2,500 gp
Type II 25 lb. 500 lb. 70 cu. ft. 5,000 gp
Type III 35 lb. 1,000 lb. 150 cu. ft. 7,400 gp
Type IV 60 lb. 1,500 lb. 250 cu. ft. 10,000 gp
If the bag is overloaded, or if sharp objects pierce it (from inside or outside), the bag ruptures and is ruined. All contents are lost forever. If a bag of holding is turned inside out, its contents spill out, unharmed, but the bag must be put right before it can be used again. If living creatures are placed within the bag, they can survive for up to 10 minutes, after which time they suffocate. Retrieving a specific item from a bag of holding is a move action—unless the bag contains more than an ordinary backpack would hold, in which case retrieving a specific item is a full-round action.

If a bag of holding is placed within a portable hole a rift to the Astral Plane is torn in the space: Bag and hole alike are sucked into the void and forever lost. If a portable hole is placed within a bag of holding, it opens a gate to the Astral Plane: The hole, the bag, and any creatures within a 10-foot radius are drawn there, destroying the portable hole and bag of holding in the process.

Moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Craft Wondrous Item, secret chest.

Emphasis mine. Which means in a strange way, you can suffocate creatures that don't need to breathe as long as they're still living.

[Fax Celestis]

murderous furniture

If I ever start a metal band, this is what I'm going to name it.

[Jade_Tarem]

That would help for making them tougher to kill, but alas, I don't think you suffocate from a bag of holding due to lack of appropriate air source. RAW for some reason states that after 10 minutes you simply suffocate and die, with no provisions for air sources or even not having to breathe. Otherwise at 10 minutes when the air supply presumably ran out, they would at least get to hold their breath for Con x 2 rounds with a scaling DC 10 check every round thereafter in order to continue holding their breath.

Oh, good call. I'd forgotten about the hard timer on Bag of Holding. I imagine it was put in place to prevent cheese involving a bottle of air and ambush/stealth/travel scenarios.

[WebTiefling]

Blah blah blah

Did you bother to read the numerous statements that the spell Polymorph Any Object cannot polymorph things into gasses? Your trap doesn't work, regardless of bizarrely out-of-genre knowledge of modern chemistry.

[Hammerpriest]

If I ever start a metal band, this is what I'm going to name it.

I'm partial to "Fort Save or TPK." And if it's not already taken Total Party Kill would work too. Though, I guess you'd have trouble playing at a party with that sort of name.

[EyethatBinds]

Did you bother to read the numerous statements that the spell Polymorph Any Object cannot polymorph things into gasses? Your trap doesn't work, regardless of bizarrely out-of-genre knowledge of modern chemistry.

The spell description allots (as an example) of a pebble being turned into a human, and the only major exclusions listed are valuable materials (carbon monoxide is worthless for the most part) or turning non-magical items into magical items.

Secondly, Carbon Monoxide has been known of since around 322 BC. Aristotle himself noticed the toxic fumes from the burning of coal and an ancient means of execution was sealing a person in a room filled with burning coals. The oxygen consumption wouldn't kill a person quite as fast as inhaling the deadly carbon monoxide gases, so no you're again wrong.

Yes, many of you may assert it doesn't work because you don't perceive it to be in genre, but that preference itself holds little bearing on reality.

[Fax Celestis]

The spell description allots (as an example) of a pebble being turned into a human, and the only major exclusions listed are valuable materials (carbon monoxide is worthless for the most part) or turning non-magical items into magical items.
Incorrect.


This spell functions like polymorph, except that it changes one object or creature into another.


This spell functions like alter self, except that you change the willing subject into another form of living creature. The new form may be of the same type as the subject or any of the following types: aberration, animal, dragon, fey, giant, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, ooze, plant, or vermin. The assumed form can’t have more Hit Dice than your caster level (or the subject’s HD, whichever is lower), to a maximum of 15 HD at 15th level. You can’t cause a subject to assume a form smaller than Fine, nor can you cause a subject to assume an incorporeal or gaseous form. The subject’s creature type and subtype (if any) change to match the new form.

It doesn't work because polymorph any object does not work that way. </morbo>

[Hammerpriest]

No, we're saying that both by RAW and RAI (Isn't it weird when these guys get along?) it doesn't work.

We start by looking here. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/polymorphAnyObject.htm)


Polymorph Any Object
Transmutation
Level: Sor/Wiz 8, Trickery 8
Components: V, S, M/DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: One creature, or one nonmagical object of up to 100 cu. ft./level
Duration: See text
Saving Throw: Fortitude negates (object); see text
Spell Resistance: Yes (object)
This spell functions like polymorph, except that it changes one object or creature into another. The duration of the spell depends on how radical a change is made from the original state to its enchanted state. The duration is determined by using the following guidelines.

Changed Subject Is: Increase to Duration Factor1
Add all that apply. Look up the total on the next table.
Same kingdom (animal, vegetable, mineral) +5
Same class (mammals, fungi, metals, etc.) +2
Same size +2
Related (twig is to tree, wolf fur is to wolf, etc.) +2
Same or lower Intelligence +2
Duration Factor Duration Example
0 20 minutes Pebble to human
2 1 hour Marionette to human
4 3 hours Human to marionette
5 12 hours Lizard to manticore
6 2 days Sheep to wool coat
7 1 week Shrew to manticore
9+ Permanent Manticore to shrew
Unlike polymorph, polymorph any object does grant the creature the Intelligence score of its new form. If the original form didn’t have a Wisdom or Charisma score, it gains those scores as appropriate for the new form.

Damage taken by the new form can result in the injury or death of the polymorphed creature. In general, damage occurs when the new form is changed through physical force.

A nonmagical object cannot be made into a magic item with this spell. Magic items aren’t affected by this spell.

This spell cannot create material of great intrinsic value, such as copper, silver, gems, silk, gold, platinum, mithral, or adamantine. It also cannot reproduce the special properties of cold iron in order to overcome the damage reduction of certain creatures.

This spell can also be used to duplicate the effects of baleful polymorph, polymorph, flesh to stone, stone to flesh, transmute mud to rock, transmute metal to wood, or transmute rock to mud.

Arcane Material Component
Mercury, gum arabic, and smoke.

Emphasis mine.

Then knowing that we look here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/polymorph.htm):


Polymorph
Transmutation
Level: Sor/Wiz 4
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: Willing living creature touched
Duration: 1 min./level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No
This spell functions like alter self, except that you change the willing subject into another form of living creature. The new form may be of the same type as the subject or any of the following types: aberration, animal, dragon, fey, giant, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, ooze, plant, or vermin. The assumed form can’t have more Hit Dice than your caster level (or the subject’s HD, whichever is lower), to a maximum of 15 HD at 15th level. You can’t cause a subject to assume a form smaller than Fine, nor can you cause a subject to assume an incorporeal or gaseous form. The subject’s creature type and subtype (if any) change to match the new form.

Upon changing, the subject regains lost hit points as if it had rested for a night (though this healing does not restore temporary ability damage and provide other benefits of resting; and changing back does not heal the subject further). If slain, the subject reverts to its original form, though it remains dead.

The subject gains the Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores of the new form but retains its own Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. It also gains all extraordinary special attacks possessed by the form but does not gain the extraordinary special qualities possessed by the new form or any supernatural or spell-like abilities.

Incorporeal or gaseous creatures are immune to being polymorphed, and a creature with the shapechanger subtype can revert to its natural form as a standard action.

Material Component
An empty cocoon.



Emphasis also mine. Ergo, your trap doesn't work by RAW, doesn't work by RAI, and would be a horrible thing to do to players.

Edit: Swordsaged!

[WebTiefling]

The spell description allots (as an example) of a pebble being turned into a human, and the only major exclusions listed are valuable materials (carbon monoxide is worthless for the most part) or turning non-magical items into magical items.

Dude, pay more attention to all the posts here. I'll repeat the relevant parts here, yet again.

Polymorph Any Object

This spell functions like polymorph, except that it changes one object or creature into another.

Polymorph

You can’t cause a subject to assume a form smaller than Fine, nor can you cause a subject to assume an incorporeal or gaseous form.

You can't use PAO to make a gas. Period. Your trap doesn't work. Period.

Edit: Ninja'd and Swordsaged!

[Lord Vukodlak]

Additionally, gas is not an object. Polymorph Any Object can only turn creatures and objects into other creatures and objects.

[Zeb]

Your party doesn't use mage hand/unseen servant to retrieve things for them?:smallconfused:

[Knaight]

X is that chemistry does not exist. Alchemy does. The periodic table doesn't exist. In its stead is Aristotelian physics. So, no carbon monoxide.

Yes, the periodic table wouldn't exist, given that it is a technological organization scheme that wasn't developed yet. That doesn't mean that the elements on it shouldn't, particularly when metallurgy is a major part of medieval technology.

[Hammerpriest]

Actually anything can exist because the DM is the final arbiter of what does and doesn't exist in the world. If the DM says X exists than X exists and if they say X doesn't than it doesn't. Sometimes it makes sense, other times it doesn't. It really depends.

[Ubab]

First: Have you been chalenged to TPK your party by RAW and is trying to do this?

The fact of Polymorph any object can turn thing in larger mass could instantly kill all the party. Do you know, by the Law of Ideal Gasses, the volume of 70kg of Carbon Monoxide? 28g must fill about 22liters. One person turned in the same mass of CO should have about 22 cubic meters of CO, considering the partial pression in this case, the remaing party members will be pressed to death against the walls!


You can't PAO things into gases.
Originally Posted by Polymorph Any Object
This spell functions like polymorph, except...
Originally Posted by Polymorph
...nor can you cause a subject to assume an incorporeal or gaseous form.

Totally agree. Bring the trophy to Sith_Happens!

Like Sith_Happen said, take this phrase from Polymorph any object:


This spell functions like polymorph, except that it changes one object or creature into another.

One object or creature into another "what"? Another object or creature. Anything that aren't a object or creature can be the end-shape of a polymorphed "creature or non-magical object".

And, by RAW:

An onset delay is the amount of time between when the trap is sprung and when it deals damage. A never miss trap always has an onset delay. The PAO has a save, but the result of the PAO is a "never miss trap".

-> Anyone with Spellcraft should be able to know (by check) that the other aren't teleported or anything similar.

-> The PC's, as noted before, can hold the breath for a long time.

-> Must be a way to search and disable this device.

-> The one polymorphed must have a transmutation aura emanating, so, able to be detected.

Edited after readind to this link (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040601a).

Polymorph Any Object

A general purpose spell, polymorph any object is similar to both polymorph and baleful polymorph. It works on any creature or object, and it can turn the subject into any other creature or object (but not an incorporeal or gaseous creature or object).

It can be interpreted as not RAW, but is one more thing going in the way of not letting people be turned into gas or incorporeal thing.

[McBish]

Also wouldn't the person who got turned into the gas be OK once the spell is done, so no TPK? And the only way I would pick up a lone ring in the middle of a otherwise empty room is after many attempts to find traps and DM hints that the only way for the game to move forward is to pick up that ring.

[kaminiwa]

This is a courtesy reminder of the Forum Rules (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/announcement.php?a=1)

In particular, both of these are considered impolite at a minimum, and potentially violate the forum rules:




Tell a poster that they clearly didn't read what you or others wrote upthread.
Putting down or insulting ANY play preference

[Shining Wrath]

Precisely, rules in DnD are an abstraction of physics mixed with fantasy, and so cannot be used to model actual physics and chemical reactions. Technically, in DnD, trees don't produce air, and there are no rules for breathing (only mentions here and there that a certain race need not breathe). You simply being to suffocate in certain situations.

Suffocation rules exist in certain locations and events, and only in those locations and events (such as in a bag of holding). Filling a room with carbon monoxide does not produce suffocation. Filling a room with Aboleth Mucus, however, is totally different.

Also, if you house rule that carbon monoxide does indeed suffocate living creatures, then the problem arises as to how a wizard (who deals with magic, not science) could deduce the existence of c. monoxide. Then finally, why not simply PAO a player into an equivalent mass of Polonium or Plutonium and then effortlessly write rules for radiation poisoning? I'm sure that a solid mass of plutonium could slay even big T pretty indefinitely.


Plutonium is fissile. A PC shaped and sized mass of plutonium exceeds critical mass.

Not only is this TPK, there are probably no survivors with a couple of miles and the fallout is lethal for miles downwind.

[dascarletm]

Wouldn't it be easier if rocks fell and everybody died?

[ahenobarbi]

True, true. I didn't think of that. You'd also have to fill the room with various animated murderous furniture in order to keep them busy long enough not to notice the suffocation.

It doesn't say anywhere that you notice that you're suffocating before you die :smallwink:

[Hammerpriest]

It doesn't say anywhere that you notice that you're suffocating before you die :smallwink:

True. Although, I'm sure they'd notice something was up when they were unable to leave the room, or the whole "Flaming Murderous Furniture" deal. But there you have it. RAW TPK.

Though it's still largely a jerk move to do this to a group of players without warning.

[Spuddles]

I really like this trap. It's fiendish, but defeatable. Virtually everyone in this thread is coming across as the sort of entitled player that no one likes to game with.

I would make some changes- PaO would target an object in the room and turn it into a poison. The players would know PaO went off on a successful spellcraft check but not know what was happening.

The mage's statf is suddenly black lotus extract. The fighter's helmet becomes aboleth mucous. A brick in the wall turns into a black pudding or green ooze. A pebble on the floor turns into some horrible spore that causes rapid transformation into a nasty monster.


Exactelly that.

Do not bring your 21th century knowledge in a world that only have 9th century knowledge...

Where does it say dnd only has 9th century knowledge...?


dascarletm,

While I can appreciate the point, that also leaves steam turbines on the table for the PCs though. Hero made his steam engine before the Romans marched on Acre.

Oh wow, the steam engine is totally the worst thing that the players can do when PaO is on the table!

Hahaha, look at the spells in the PHB sometime. The apparatus of Kwalish is nothing compared to simulacrum or planar binding.


We have a winer !

Yeah this thread sure seems to be full of em.


Additionally, gas is not an object. Polymorph Any Object can only turn creatures and objects into other creatures and objects.

Object is an ill-defined term in dnd. In some places, fire is considered to be an object.


Wouldn't it be easier if rocks fell and everybody died?

There are a ton of ways to escape this trap. Your DM probably just runs low level monsters headlong into your AoOs if you think this is a rock falls situation

[dascarletm]

There are a ton of ways to escape this trap. Your DM probably just runs low level monsters headlong into your AoOs if you think this is a rock falls situation

To be clear I don't think this is a rocks falls and everybody dies situation. I was referring more towards turning someone into a nuke....


Plutonium is fissile. A PC shaped and sized mass of plutonium exceeds critical mass.

Not only is this TPK, there are probably no survivors with a couple of miles and the fallout is lethal for miles downwind.

Which was all light hearted, but thanks for the insulting accusations anyway.

[icefractal]

Have you heard of the "Tippyverse"? That is a world where magic is applied to "technology" in a full and complete manner, in the same way this concept of turning things into CO.

That's not a world most people want to play in. That's why players building steam engines is a big deal in a swords and sorcery setting. It's metagaming that opens up a Pandora's Box which instantly allows the players unlimited goldPerpetual engines (as can be made easily with a waterwheel, a couple Bags of Holding, and less engineering knowledge than a crossbow) are not in Tippyverse territory. Automatically resetting magical traps are more of the Tippyverse foundation, and other infinite production methods. Something like a steam engine? Barely a toe in the water, and only provides "unlimited gold" if there are unlimited people wanting to buy engine power, and nobody else with the design.

[WebTiefling]

Object is an ill-defined term in dnd. In some places, fire is considered to be an object.

I know this is pushing forum rules, but once again, check the thread - in a dozen places it is shown that the rules specifically state that Polymorph and Polymorph Any Object cannot transform things into gasses.

It has nothing to do with how you might or might not define a gas as an object. The rules specifically state that you can't transform anything into a gas with Polymorph or PaO.

[WebTiefling]

Perpetual engines (as can be made easily with a waterwheel, a couple Bags of Holding, and less engineering knowledge than a crossbow) are not in Tippyverse territory. Automatically resetting magical traps are more of the Tippyverse foundation, and other infinite production methods. Something like a steam engine? Barely a toe in the water, and only provides "unlimited gold" if there are unlimited people wanting to buy engine power, and nobody else with the design.

Yeah, perpetual machines aren't exactly Tippyverse, but the application of rules (in general) to introduce situations that break the entire concept of the FR-style world is what I was thinking of.

Whether it's by using auto magic traps (traditional Tippyverse technique) or infinite power machines - either method very quickly changes the world from a swords and sorcery sort of world to .... something dramatically different.

[Spuddles]

I know this is pushing forum rules, but once again, check the thread - in a dozen places it is shown that the rules specifically state that Polymorph and Polymorph Any Object cannot transform things into gasses.

It has nothing to do with how you might or might not define a gas as an object. The rules specifically state that you can't transform anything into a gas with Polymorph or PaO.

I never said otherwise. It's the gas specific prohibitions that PaO inherits that prevents OP's trap from working RAW, not the general rules regarding "objects".

[rockdeworld]

Have you heard of the "Tippyverse"? That is a world where magic is applied to "technology" in a full and complete manner, in the same way this concept of turning things into CO.

That's not a world most people want to play in.
This implication is false. The first paragraph is roughly correct, and I direct anyone who's interested to check out the Tippyverse here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=222007). Note that it's more appropriate to call Tippyverse a template for a campaign setting, and Points of Light the actual setting described in that post.

I don't believe the second paragraph, because the Points of Light setting is a complex, interesting, well-thought-out high-fantasy world, and appeals to me in particular. If there is any truth to it, I'd attribute it not to the first paragraph but instead to people thinking the Tippyverse is something it isn't. Specifically:


1. It’s not a world ruled by a single all powerful wizard who mind rapes the opposition (at least not traditionally).
2. It’s not a 1984/Parinoia/Big Brother world where freedom does not exist and the government controls every facet of life
On another note...

We have a winer !
Is this supposed to be "whiner" or "winner"?

[dascarletm]

This implication is false. The first paragraph is roughly correct, and I direct anyone who's interested to check out the Tippyverse here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=222007). Note that it's more appropriate to call Tippyverse a template for a campaign setting, and Points of Light the actual setting described in that post.

I don't believe the second paragraph, because the Points of Light setting is a complex, interesting, well-thought-out high-fantasy world, and appeals to me in particular. If there is any truth to it, I'd attribute it not to the first paragraph but instead to people thinking the Tippyverse is something it isn't. Specifically:

On another note...

Is this supposed to be "whiner" or "winner"?

Yes.

I used to strongly dislike Tippyverse from what I heard about it second hand on the forums. Then I actually read what it was, and now think it is pretty cool.

[Sith_Happens]

Is this supposed to be "whiner" or "winner"?

I'm assuming "winner," although after noticing the typo I did spend a few minutes trying to come up with a good joke based on reading it as coming from the word "wine."

[WebTiefling]

rockdeworld - I enjoy the Tippyverse too, and I would very literally pay a good DM who would run a campaign for me and some friends in that world. My statement that most people don't want to play in that universe is just a statistical statement, not a commentary on the quality or "playability" of the world.

Just statistically, most people (so far 100% of D&D players I've met IRL, and the vast majority of people I've read online) aren't interested in playing in the Tippyverse.

That's a pity, because it's a really awesome concept, but still true.

[Segev]

I really like this trap. It's fiendish, but defeatable. Virtually everyone in this thread is coming across as the sort of entitled player that no one likes to game with.

Um...

1) Wow, way to insult personally people for not sharing your point of view.

2) How is this "defeatable?" It's a 1-round-between-activation-and-death trap with no clue that anything is wrong beyond "triggering PC disappeared." The only defense is omniscience or already being immune to it by virtue of not having to breathe (typically a racial choice, possible with one specific ioun stone).

3) Since it doesn't work per the RAW, it really is effectively "rocks fall, everybody dies." It isn't a PAO effect since PAO can't do it, but the DM obviously can create any effect he wants. But again, this doesn't give any mechanism for figuring out what's up and defeating it.

4) Outside of killer-DM scenarios (and Tomb of Horrors definitely qualifies), this is genre-inappropriate for "traditional" D&D, wherein poison gas is generally visible, often has a bit of a hissing noise associated with its expansion to fill the air, and generally has a "designated poisonous color" such as green, sickly yellow, or the like. "Colorless, odorless poison" generally is reserved for oral poisons, where other tests and general paranoia is the genre-appropriate defense.

[Captnq]

There is no carbon mono in D&D. There is:
Volcanic gas Inhaled DC 13 (1d3 Uncon (Hrs)/1d6 Con)

But that's about as close as you'll get.

[Jade_Tarem]

I really like this trap. It's fiendish, but defeatable. Virtually everyone in this thread is coming across as the sort of entitled player that no one likes to game with that would prefer that the DM inform them of house rules and random genre shifts that may wind up killing them in advance, as is tradition.

Fixed that for you.

[kkplx]

While I do find the argument of how terrible a DM I am a bit funny, I did explicitly state in my first post I'd never do this, unless the players really really piss me off.

Secondly, there are rules that support using deadly gases and having knowledge of them. It's covered in Knowledge: Dungeoneering, greater details covered in the Forgotten Realms supplement Underdark. Though page 107 does mention that should get a save, should also check a DC 15 survival check, and probably shouldn't die instantly.

However, the objections raised so far are somewhat irrelevant. Carbon Monoxide can be discovered, and thus reproduced in a colorless form through the spell in sufficient quantities to kill quickly. So it's entirely possible to create the trap, it just probably should involve some format of saves.

You don't kill off the PCs if the players piss you off. You TALK to them about the issue. Abusing the power of being the DM for petty revenge is just a very sad, pathetic thing to do.

[3WhiteFox3]

Beyond being against the rules, mean-spirited and stinking of adversarial GMing, this trap makes no sense. Why does the trap target a person (thus allowing a fort save) instead of targeting the pedestal the ring is on? How does the trap change the triggering method and target from someone who touches the ring, to any dead body that happens to be nearby? Dead bodies aren't creatures anyway.

Besides, this is pretty easy to deal with.

1. Party notices obviously trapped ring; Wizard casts detect magic.

2. Wizard sees that the room has a magical aura, makes his spellcraft check and knows that it's a strong transmutation aura.

3. Party decides to leave since a 7th level+ transmutation spell is probably not a good thing if it's a trap (alternatively they might try to determine if the ring is a magical object just in case it is supposed to be some sort of treasure) and just leaves.

[dascarletm]

Beyond being against the rules, mean-spirited and stinking of adversarial GMing, this trap makes no sense. Why does the trap target a person (thus allowing a fort save) instead of targeting the pedestal the ring is on? How does the trap change the triggering method and target from someone who touches the ring, to any dead body that happens to be nearby? Dead bodies aren't creatures anyway.

Besides, this is pretty easy to deal with.

1. Party notices obviously trapped ring; Wizard casts detect magic.

2. Wizard sees that the room has a magical aura, makes his spellcraft check and knows that it's a strong transmutation aura.

3. Party decides to leave since a 7th level+ transmutation spell is probably not a good thing if it's a trap (alternatively they might try to determine if the ring is a magical object just in case it is supposed to be some sort of treasure) and just leaves.

Ummm errr....:smalleek: your detect magic spell ummm.... stops working, or doesn't see anything because...

None can stop a DM bent on killing players. Only leaving. (OP: To be clear, I'm not saying this is you.

[3WhiteFox3]

Ummm errr....:smalleek: your detect magic spell ummm.... stops working, or doesn't see anything because...

None can stop a DM bent on killing players. Only leaving. (OP: To be clear, I'm not saying this is you.


Obviously, if a GM wants to he could just bypass the poorly designed trap and just go for: When you enter the room, the ancient architecture is disturbed by your movements and rocks fall, you die. Even if you make the knowledge (engineering) check, you don't have enough time to avoid being crushed.

If you're going

Besides, I was just pointing out that it is capable of being defeated pretty simply and that the OP was making some pretty bad assumptions that assumed the characters would just fall for his trap. Making it a (supposedly) logically designed trap, you are trying to use the rules to do something, if the players use the rules to counter it then you can't complain (well you can, but you'll just look like an even worse GM). Since you didn't have to use the rules in the first place!

Also, if my detect magic fails for no reason, there is noway in baator that I'm going to stick around (and possibly not just my character if you get my drift).

[Segev]

"Make a fort save: If you fail, you suffer a sudden massive existence failure. There is nothing immune to this."

[Hammerpriest]

Also, if my detect magic fails for no reason, there is noway in baator that I'm going to stick around (and possibly not just my character if you get my drift).

Eh, there plenty of really common reasons for detect magic to fail, such as mindblank interfering with the spell, everything in the room popping up as somewhat magical (and every room for that matter since most are lit with everburning torches, constructed with Walls of Stone, etc,) AMFs, and more. Really, what would tip the PCs off would be "There is an empty room with a single ring on a pedestal." At which point the proper choice is to say, "The rogue takes 10 looking for traps."

And even if they got caught, they could just use one of a bajillion relocation spells to simply leave the room. Either that or the party simply casts a windowless Force Cage on the ring and moves on now that it lacks LoE.

[EyethatBinds]

I know this is pushing forum rules, but once again, check the thread - in a dozen places it is shown that the rules specifically state that Polymorph and Polymorph Any Object cannot transform things into gasses.

It has nothing to do with how you might or might not define a gas as an object. The rules specifically state that you can't transform anything into a gas with Polymorph or PaO.

Yes, but frozen carbon monoxide would turn into a gas pretty fast (freezing at -337F or -205C). Though this does reduce the chance of killing the players without them realizing what's going on.

Also the goal of this trap is to kill the adventurers yet leave their magical items in tact. The plutonium trap sounds like something for a different plan. Also, plutonium wasn't discovered until 1934 AD. I think that since CO was discovered before iron smelting, it qualifies as being fairly consistent with a pseudo-medieval age.

Of course, knowing that all gases freeze doesn't, so we're somewhat at an impasse there. Since Polymorph any object can create any type of solid, does this mean that wizards are able to make liquid hydrogen? How cold can you make something with polymorph?

[EyethatBinds]

Eh, there plenty of really common reasons for detect magic to fail, such as mindblank interfering with the spell, everything in the room popping up as somewhat magical (and every room for that matter since most are lit with everburning torches, constructed with Walls of Stone, etc,) AMFs, and more. Really, what would tip the PCs off would be "There is an empty room with a single ring on a pedestal." At which point the proper choice is to say, "The rogue takes 10 looking for traps."

And even if they got caught, they could just use one of a bajillion relocation spells to simply leave the room. Either that or the party simply casts a windowless Force Cage on the ring and moves on now that it lacks LoE.

These are the kinds of things I like to see. This would effectively counter the problem entirely. Just trying to create some super-lethal traps that require the party to expend a great deal of magical might and force them to move with hefty caution.

[John Longarrow]

These are the kinds of things I like to see. This would effectively counter the problem entirely. Just trying to create some super-lethal traps that require the party to expend a great deal of magical might and force them to move with hefty caution.

Just break out Tomb of Horrors.

[Hammerpriest]

These are the kinds of things I like to see. This would effectively counter the problem entirely. Just trying to create some super-lethal traps that require the party to expend a great deal of magical might and force them to move with hefty caution.

Except I'm AFB right now, but I can solve your trap with a first level spell, a second level spell, and a third level spell. Wiz/Sorc/Duskblade/Rogue/Anyone with UMD and a tad bit of foresight casts Dimension hop to get through the door. A duskblade then busts the door down with his adamantine Guisarme. A sorc/wiz/rogue/anyone with UMD then uses a CL1 wand of knock made by a trapsmith to force the door open. Then everyone either runs to you because the moment someone chokes is the moment everyone holds their breath, or you cast regroup from a wand or scroll to teleport them all to you. Seeing as this is a CR 10 trap, those resources that were just spent are negligible at best. The party then destroys the ring from a distance and moves on.

One of the main arguments here isn't just that trap is illegal by RAW, but that it's also a one save or die/easy to escape trap. Either the party picks up on it immediately and is unaffected, or they all die. That's not interesting or fun. That's just frustrating.

Really, I like Spuddies version of the trap. Just make the PAO target nonmagical/unimportant gear and suddenly you have a trap that gives players time to react but is still hyper lethal.

[3WhiteFox3]

Eh, there plenty of really common reasons for detect magic to fail, such as mindblank interfering with the spell, everything in the room popping up as somewhat magical (and every room for that matter since most are lit with everburning torches, constructed with Walls of Stone, etc,) AMFs, and more. Really, what would tip the PCs off would be "There is an empty room with a single ring on a pedestal." At which point the proper choice is to say, "The rogue takes 10 looking for traps."

And even if they got caught, they could just use one of a bajillion relocation spells to simply leave the room. Either that or the party simply casts a windowless Force Cage on the ring and moves on now that it lacks LoE.

Mindblank won't work because it targets creatures not objects,

Wall of Stone won't detect as magical, the spell is magical, the stone is just normal stone (this is because it's a creation effect with an instantaneous duration).

Just center the cone so that it doesn't have the Everburning torches in the area, or remove the torches.


Magical areas, multiple types of magic, or strong local magical emanations may distort or conceal weaker auras.

Now the OP never said that the area was magical and the everburning torches aren't a stronger aura than the PAO and he didn't say there were any local emanations. Besides, I said that if it failed for no reason (which is what the poster I was replying to was implying), any of those are reasons and I have other ways of dealing with them.

Also the rogue taking 10 on the trap probably won't work. The trap has a search DC of 33, the rogue probably has around a +15 Search check (13 [ranks] + 2 [INT bonus]) and to get it on a 10, he needs at least a +23 (15 + [2 Elf] + 3 [Skill Focus] + 2 [Investigator] and a +1 Int boosting item) that's a great deal more investment than just using Arcane Sight (which could actually be permanently on at this level) or summoning a monkey from outside the room and having it touch the ring.

[Hammerpriest]

I dunno. Most Rogues have both UMD and Search pretty boosted up there. You forgot to factor in the +2 circumstance bonus from his masterwork tool of searching, and any items the rogue might have to grant him an additional competence bonus (A custom item of Guidance of the Avatar 1-3/day isn't too expensive and it means that if there's a skill check they need succeeding on, they'll succeed.) Boosting skill checks isn't really hard for a skillmonkey like the rogue, and it helps in the event that wizard is incompetent/prepped for something totally different.

[Ravens_cry]

If you aren't putting investment, like, say, a magic skill boosting item, into one of your most vital skills, you are seriously failing at being a skill monkey.
At a level where I can get +13 from ranks alone, I should have at least a +5 item and preferably a +10. Skill boosters are damn cheap!

[3WhiteFox3]

I dunno. Most Rogues have both UMD and Search pretty boosted up there. You forgot to factor in the +2 competence bonus from his masterwork tool of searching, and any items the rogue might have to grant him an additional competence bonus (A custom item of Guidance of the Avatar 1-3/day isn't too expensive and it means that if there's a skill check they need succeeding on, they'll succeed.) Boosting skill checks isn't really hard for a skillmonkey like the rogue, and it helps in the event that wizard is incompetent/prepped for something totally different.

That's fair, though I don't like relying on custom items. That said, I'll admit I play Wizards far more often than Rogues. So, yeah, you're probably right on the skill bonuses.

[WebTiefling]

Yes, but frozen carbon monoxide would turn into a gas pretty fast (freezing at -337F or -205C). Though this does reduce the chance of killing the players without them realizing what's going on.

Also the goal of this trap is to kill the adventurers yet leave their magical items in tact. The plutonium trap sounds like something for a different plan. Also, plutonium wasn't discovered until 1934 AD. I think that since CO was discovered before iron smelting, it qualifies as being fairly consistent with a pseudo-medieval age.

Of course, knowing that all gases freeze doesn't, so we're somewhat at an impasse there. Since Polymorph any object can create any type of solid, does this mean that wizards are able to make liquid hydrogen? How cold can you make something with polymorph?

Wow, so now the trap is turning things into CO that is wildly outside the genre and period knowledge, but it is also using even MORE outside genre knowledge that gasses can be frozen at super-cold temperatures.

And not only that, but you're dropping the temperature WILDLY below anything even vaguely described anywhere in the game.

And you're doing this with a spell that doesn't mention anything about being able to change an item's temperature outside its normal temperature.

And it relies on the players still doing absolutely nothing but staring stupidly while the trap slowly takes effect.

And it requires that the players be completely incompetent in checking for existing traps or doing even the simplest trap-prevention steps. (what party doesn't have a hand of the mage to collect these things from far away?)

And it ignores the fact that if a body were turned into a gas (even a frozen one), then the MASSIVE overpressure that would result from that much gas suddenly being released in a small, enclosed room would instantly pulp the inhabitants.

And this is improvement?? :smalleek:

[John Longarrow]

And this is improvement?? :smalleek:

Still not as insta-kill as Tomb of Horrors though. Not sure if that says anthing special about the OP, or more about EGG?

[NNescio]

First: Have you been chalenged to TPK your party by RAW and is trying to do this?

The fact of Polymorph any object can turn thing in larger mass could instantly kill all the party. Do you know, by the Law of Ideal Gasses, the volume of 70kg of Carbon Monoxide? 28g must fill about 22liters. One person turned in the same mass of CO should have about 22 cubic meters of CO, considering the partial pression in this case, the remaing party members will be pressed to death against the walls!

Eh, not really. Gases are compressible. Assuming a room of about 20 ft x 10 ft x 10 ft (the size of the OP's room), the CO gas will only have a partial pressure of 1.1 atm (actually 1.05, but I'm particular about significant figures) at room temperature. This gives a total pressure of 2.1 atm (2.1 times normal atmospheric pressure at sea level). That's about the same as the pressure you''l get at 11 meters under the sea, or 'bout 35 feet.

Of course, since the gas is generated all at once (as opposed to gradually), you'll get a shockwave, similar to an explosive.

So, anyone nearby would probably receive damage like from an Explosive Runes spell and may be knocked down to their feet.

Then they die of suffocation.

(Assuming they aren't immune and can't teleport out.)

(I actually had a longer post with the calculations, but it was lost when my browser crashed. Maybe it's a good thing, as the post was somewhat acerbic in tone.)

Uh wait, how many catgirls did I kill?
--

Back to the main topic.

The trap is against RAW, is against RAI, and is a bad idea to pull out on unsuspecting players unless it's a joke campaign.

Edit: The amount of gas generated is about the same as 56 kg of TNT (1 g TNT generates approximate 1 L of gas (http://www.ch.ic.ac.uk/vchemlib/mim/bristol/tnt/tnt_text.htm)). Assuming that 1 lb of TNT is equivalent to 3d6 damage (I got that figure from googling around, and I don't know how they come up with it) and that explosive power (that is, the peak overpressure) generally scales to the 1/3 power of the mass of TNT equivalent (http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/navy/docs/es310/warheads/Warheads.htm) (AND NOT to the chemical energy of the explosive), we get about 15d6 damage. Of course, since the CO gas doesn't really heat up , we can expect its damaging effects to be lower, so, 6d6 force is about alright.

[John Longarrow]

Uh wait, how many catgirls did I kill?

NNescio! You are a genius!! Don't PoA the target into Carbon Monoxide, PoA them into a Catgirl!!!

[EyethatBinds]

Wow, so now the trap is turning things into CO that is wildly outside the genre and period knowledge

http://books.google.com/books?id=XsnPIfP0oBcC&pg=PA5#v=onepage&q&f=false

[3WhiteFox3]

http://books.google.com/books?id=XsnPIfP0oBcC&pg=PA5#v=onepage&q&f=false

That only proves that they knew that something could kill people, but that they didn't know what. That same source explains that it's not until the late 1700's that CO was known to be the cause. So yeah, it's still far outside of their knowledge. At best you can argue that they would use Coal Gas, but that's close enough to what is covered in the RAW by the aforementioned: Volcanic gas Inhaled DC 13 (1d3 Uncon (Hrs)/1d6 Con).

[WebTiefling]

Eye -

Read that again - he discovered that coal/charcoal smoke killed people. We know today that it was the CO in the smoke, but they had no idea back then.

If a wizard noticed, "Hey! Coal/Charcoal fumes kill people, I'll make a magic spell that creates that," then he would make a magic spell that makes (char)coal smoke.

He wouldn't know about the particular molecule out of the thousands of different types of molecules in the fumes that make up charcoal smoke.

You're injecting incredibly out-of-time/genre knowledge into the game. This is considered by most to be a dink move.

(Ignoring the fact that the trap doesn't work in the first place by RAW, and it requires an incredible chain of inability/incompetence/stupidity on the players' part in order to work even if the RAW allowed the trap, which it doesn't.)

As has been mentioned several times, if you want insta-TPK traps that actually work, try the Tomb of Horrors.

Edit: Swordsaged.