Creatures that summon things stronger than themselves.

[Tvtyrant]

This seems to be a problem mostly found in the olde monster manual, but I believe there are several other creatures with the problem as well. Take the Ravid, which has 3 HD and 16! HP, but can animate a 16HD creature with 148 HP as a free action once per round. Or the Triton, which is a CR 2 creature that can summon CR 4 monsters. I only bring this up because I was considering using a Ravid and realized that it is horridly designed.

[dethkruzer]

I'd have to sayy all that was trumped by the greater succubus that appeared in the book of erotic fantasy. Normally a CR 10-ish monster with nothing too notable... except it can, once a day, summon a balor with no chance of failing.

[Tvtyrant]

I'd have to sayy all that was trumped by the greater succubus that appeared in the book of erotic fantasy. Normally a CR 10-ish monster with nothing too notable... except it can, once a day, summon a balor with no chance of failing.

...wat (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FlatWhat). I now know what I am shapechanging into...

[Jeff the Green]

Summoning oozes, from MMIII, have this as their entire shtick.

[Story]

...wat (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FlatWhat). I now know what I am shapechanging into...

If BoEF is in play you have far worse issues. Ever heard of Metaphysical Spellshaper?

[Jeff the Green]

If BoEF is in play you have far worse issues. Ever heard of Metaphysical Spellshaper?

Especially if you're at the level where shapechange is an option. Heck, there are more powerful options even if BoEF isn't in play.

[Mordokai]

This seems to be a problem mostly found in the olde monster manual, but I believe there are several other creatures with the problem as well. Take the Ravid, which has 3 HD and 16! HP, but can animate a 16HD creature with 148 HP as a free action once per round. Or the Triton, which is a CR 2 creature that can summon CR 4 monsters. I only bring this up because I was considering using a Ravid and realized that it is horridly designed.

I'm guessing this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ravid.htm) isn't the same ravid you're talking about?

[icefractal]

That's the one - Animate Objects, CL 20, gives you a Gargantuan animated object (16 HD, CR 7) each round, and specifically mentions there will be at least one around when the fight starts. Questionably appropriate for a CR 5 creature, to say the least.

[AntiTrust]

Whats great is that even if you defeat it and all its animated houses, you still only get xp for the cr5 since summons and whatnot don't count towards xp

[Karnith]

...wat (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FlatWhat). I now know what I am shapechanging into...
Well, to be fair, the 3.0 Succubus could summon a Balor, too, it just had a very low chance of succeeding (10%, I think?). So for someone who doesn't know much about game balance, or who just isn't paying close attention, it might seem reasonable to make an improved Succubus have a better chance of summoning a Balor.

[IronFist]

But animated objects are not summons. You get XP from them. It's even listed as a separate creature in organization.

[Karnith]

But animated objects are not summons. You get XP from them. It's even listed as a separate creature in organization.
Per the Dungeon Master's Guide:

Do not award XP for creatures that enemies summon or otherwise add to their forces with magic powers. An enemy's ability to summon or add these creatures is part of the enemy's CR already.
A ravid's ability to Animate Objects most definitely falls under this rule.

Now, there's obviously something wrong with this rule when it leads to creatures summoning other creatures with higher CRs (e.g. the 3.0 situation of "So, is this Succubus really a CR 9 fight when the Balor gets involved?"), but it is a rule nonetheless.

[Darrin]

Sylph (MM2) has a summon monster VI SLA that can bring in a large elemental. 7th level sorcerer casting, too, so they could summon additional help if need be.

[Chronos]

Any spellcasting monster that has access to the Planar Ally or Planar Binding spells would qualify (though they'd have to call them before combat starts).

[unseenmage]

The Mirror Mephit does this too, and quickly. It just uses the ability on itself and away we go, a ridiculous number of copies of copies of copies ensue. The net gain of that many actions is way over the creature's CR.

Then there's the RAW interpretation that it can technically Simulacrum any creature it wants because as a SLA it's Simulacrum doesn't need a component and then all the Mirror Mephits have Solars and Balors Efreets (3 wishes) or Black Ethergaunts (17th level wizard casting) and things go all pear shaped.
Edit:Thanks Darrin for the clarification.

[Darrin]

Then there's the RAW interpretation that it can technically Simulacrum any creature it wants because as a SLA it's Simulacrum doesn't need a component and then all the Mirror Mephits have Solars and Balors and things go all pear shaped.

Not quite. Simulacrum is still restricted to max HD = 2 * CL, and the mirror mephit's caster level is 8. That's not enough to get a Solar or Balor, but more than enough for an Efreet (3 wishes) or Black Ethergaunt (17th level wizard casting).

[Frosty]

This seems to be a problem mostly found in the olde monster manual, but I believe there are several other creatures with the problem as well. Take the Ravid, which has 3 HD and 16! HP, but can animate a 16HD creature with 148 HP as a free action once per round. Or the Triton, which is a CR 2 creature that can summon CR 4 monsters. I only bring this up because I was considering using a Ravid and realized that it is horridly designed.You want horribly designed? Imagine if a PC gets to do the same thing!

http://fc05.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2011/225/f/5/bahamut_e_yuna___ffx_by_yoshiyaki-d46gaua.jpg

[Shining Wrath]

I'd have to sayy all that was trumped by the greater succubus that appeared in the book of erotic fantasy. Normally a CR 10-ish monster with nothing too notable... except it can, once a day, summon a balor with no chance of failing.

Why do I hear "My boyfriend's back, and you're going to be sorry" playing somewhere?

[Spuddles]

The ravid is a cool, old school monster, with different assumptions about how to play dnd. Kill the ravid, run from the objects until they de-animate. Or hide, etc. without a controller they'll just carry out their last command.

Ravid is kind of a puzzle monster. There are few other ones out there. DnD wasnt originally meant to be played like it was a MMORPG where encountere are only balanced if the enemy runs out of hp before you do.

[Urpriest]

There aren't all that many Gargantuan objects around. Mostly the Ravid will be calling up weaker things. That said, the designers really should have just given it a lower CL.

[Psyren]

The object is explicitly random. Sometimes it will send a statue at you, and sometimes an old shoe.

[icefractal]

Ravids aren't smart, but they're not that dumb. Hanging out in a place with big objects around (and they can be around because the Ravid went somewhere else and had them follow it back) is a pretty obvious move.

[Psyren]

Ravids aren't smart, but they're not that dumb. Hanging out in a place with big objects around (and they can be around because the Ravid went somewhere else and had them follow it back) is a pretty obvious move.

They don't seem to gravitate or live anywhere in particular though. MM1:


Ravids are creatures from the Positive Energy Plane. These bizarre entities imbue creatures with energy by their touch and animate lifeless objects around them.

Ravids that make their way to the Material Plane wander about aimlessly, followed by the objects to which they have given life.

[Rubik]

They don't seem to gravitate or live anywhere in particular though. MM1:All the more reason for them to use that ability when they find some really large object to follow them, since they're not confined to any given space. It's not like they'd just leave their best chance at surviving a stronger monster behind.

[Psyren]

All the more reason for them to use that ability when they find some really large object to follow them, since they're not confined to any given space. It's not like they'd just leave their best chance at surviving a stronger monster behind.

Again, they can't target the ability - it's random. So even if they lucked out and got a colossal statue or whatever, it would follow them for 2 minutes till they wandered somewhere else - likely teeming with other objects.

When you factor in that they could potentially target the same object twice, the odds are against them being able to choose their bodyguard unless they're somehow in a totally featureless area devoid of detritus.

[Sith_Happens]

The real problem is that the ability fires every round and the Ravid is explicitly able to have more than one object animated at a time. Which means it's basically always going to have twenty Animated Object bodyguards.

[Toy Killer]

Creatures that summon things stronger then themselves?

Tippy. and anyone he plays with.

[Tvtyrant]

Creatures that summon things stronger then themselves?

Tippy. and anyone he plays with.

I think it is a little different for player characters, as anything their summons do they are doing. The issue with summons on enemies is they do not count for XP and loot, and if the summon is sufficiently stronger than the original creature you cannot use the creature at its appropriate level without destroying the party.

[Psyren]

The real problem is that the ability fires every round and the Ravid is explicitly able to have more than one object animated at a time. Which means it's basically always going to have twenty Animated Object bodyguards.

And there are thousands of pebbles in a gravel pit. Or thousands of books in a library. Hundreds of twigs/fallen leaves/fruits and nuts in a forest for every tree. So while it can have a powerful army, the odds are against it.


I think it is a little different for player characters, as anything their summons do they are doing. The issue with summons on enemies is they do not count for XP and loot, and if the summon is sufficiently stronger than the original creature you cannot use the creature at its appropriate level without destroying the party.

If the summon ability makes the fight harder I increase the CR. WotC is notoriously poor at CRing anyway so I see no reason to take their word for it that "the ability to summon is already included in the CR."

[Sith_Happens]

And there are thousands of pebbles in a gravel pit. Or thousands of books in a library. Hundreds of twigs/fallen leaves/fruits and nuts in a forest for every tree. So while it can have a powerful army, the odds are against it.

Holy crap, you're right. How do you even adjudicate that?:smalleek:

[AntiTrust]

Best way to adjudicate it is to not do it all, have the object following the ravid somewhat threatening and memorable. My personal favorites are a large sized birdcage, an entire wishing well, a statue of one of the characters . If I'm feeling nasty its some sort of trap a nearby hunter set, or for fun some dead body (and watch in vain as the cleric attempts to turn it)

[Psyren]

Holy crap, you're right. How do you even adjudicate that?:smalleek:

What's worse is - even after it animates something, that thing is still an object, so it doesn't get removed from the animating pool.


Best way to adjudicate it is to not do it all, have the object following the ravid somewhat threatening and memorable. My personal favorites are a large sized birdcage, an entire wishing well, a statue of one of the characters . If I'm feeling nasty its some sort of trap a nearby hunter set, or for fun some dead body (and watch in vain as the cleric attempts to turn it)

Ahh, Animate Objects on a corpse, good times :smallbiggrin: