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Srasy
2013-09-24, 03:55 PM
Can someone with quickdraw and claw attacks attack with a greatsword then attack with his claws in the same round if he sheathes his greatsword after the attack

Deadline
2013-09-24, 03:58 PM
Can someone with quickdraw and claw attacks attack with a greatsword then attack with his claws in the same round if he sheathes his greatsword after the attack

Technically, Quickdraw doesn't allow you to sheathe a weapon quickly, just draw it quickly.

Flickerdart
2013-09-24, 04:12 PM
Can someone with quickdraw and claw attacks attack with a greatsword then attack with his claws in the same round if he sheathes his greatsword after the attack
No. The hands were already used to attack that round. Being a natural weapon does not make claws ignore that.

If you could reuse limbs with different weapons, nothing would stop you from carrying around a bucket of 50 Greatswords, then dropping each after you attacked with it and quick-drawing the next.

Averis Vol
2013-09-24, 04:15 PM
Yea, you would have to drop your weapon, not stow it away.

danzibr
2013-09-24, 04:17 PM
Yea, you would have to drop your weapon, not stow it away.
I assume the yes refers to what Deadline said.

Anyway, Flickerdart called it. Essentially, barring iteratives, if a limb is used for to attack in a given round, it cannot be used for another attack. That's why unarmed strikes not necessarily being punches is so nice.

A_S
2013-09-24, 04:30 PM
No. The hands were already used to attack that round. Being a natural weapon does not make claws ignore that.

If you could reuse limbs with different weapons, nothing would stop you from carrying around a bucket of 50 Greatswords, then dropping each after you attacked with it and quick-drawing the next.
I disagree. There's no rule on the books that says "you may make an attack with each weapon you have," or anything like that, and I don't know any rule that indicates that attacks are limited by whether the hand used to make them has been used for anything yet this round. The reason you get to attack with both natural and manufactured weapons is because the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#manufacturedWeapons) says:
Some creatures combine attacks with natural and manufactured weapons when they make a full attack. When they do so, the manufactured weapon attack is considered the primary attack unless the creature’s description indicates otherwise and any natural weapons the creature also uses are considered secondary natural attacks. These secondary attacks do not interfere with the primary attack as attacking with an off-hand weapon does, but they take the usual -5 penalty (or -2 with the Multiattack feat) for such attacks, even if the natural weapon used is normally the creature’s primary natural weapon.
So, you can't draw multiple greatswords for infinite attacks, because there's nothing in the rules about multiple manufactured weapons granting multiple attacks. But you can attack with a manufactured weapon, and all your natural attacks, because the rules say you can. And, although quick draw wouldn't help, I'd say that by RAW, dropping your manufactured weapon or using a Glove of Storing or similar would allow you to "double-dip" on your claw attack.

*edit*
Essentially, barring iteratives, if a limb is used for to attack in a given round, it cannot be used for another attack.
Citation? I might just be missing something here...

Curmudgeon
2013-09-24, 05:38 PM
Quickdraw confers quick drawing, not quick sheathing. So you would need to drop the greatsword, or use a Glove of Storing or similar. But if your claws were unoccupied because you dropped your sword after making a full attack, there's still a requirement that you'd find hard to meet; basically this strategem would only work with two iterative attacks.
If you get multiple attacks because your base attack bonus is high enough, you must make the attacks in order from highest bonus to lowest. If you are using two weapons, you can strike with either weapon first. All secondary natural attacks are at a -5 penalty. This would allow them to be taken either before or after your second iterative greatsword attack, but not either before the first greatsword swing or after the third greatsword strike.

While having multiple attacks from BAB of +6 or higher is a requirement for this rule clause to apply, its applicability is general, not limited to iterative attacks. Thus if you would normally get a third iterative, you'd need to decide to take a third greatsword swing or drop it to use your claws instead; because you must take all attacks in decreasing attack bonus order, you're not allowed to take a third greatsword swing at AB-10 before your claws at AB-5.

Really, I can't see any way of having a full attack at BAB +11 or more and doing what you want without a Glove of Storing so you can use the sword, use your claws, and then go back to using the sword.

Darrin
2013-09-24, 05:56 PM
Really, I can't see any way of having a full attack at BAB +11 or more and doing what you want without a Glove of Storing so you can use the sword, use your claws, and then go back to using the sword.

Multiple greatswords + Quickdraw should work fine. Or multiple Least Crystals of Return.

Equinox
2013-09-24, 06:07 PM
So, let me get this straight: if you're a 2nd level Troll Fighter with a BAB of +6 (+4 because Troll, and +2 because Fighter level 2), you can attack with your Greatsword twice at +6/+1, then make secondary Claw attacks at +1/+1 [this requires dropping the Greatsword], and finally make a secondary-secondary bite attack at -4.

So, +6 sword/+1 sword/+1 claw/+1 claw/-4 bite

Alternatively, you can limit yourself to one Claw attack, which does not require dropping the sword, merely holding it in one hand.

+6 sword/+1 sword/+1 claw/+1 claw/-4 bite

Does that work?

Curmudgeon
2013-09-24, 06:09 PM
Multiple greatswords + Quickdraw should work fine. Or multiple Least Crystals of Return.
That would work, too, although the OP specified "a greatsword", and so I responded with that limitation in mind. Generally someone who's using a greatsword will make it the best greatsword they can afford, which realistically precludes having identical multiples to drop on the ground.

A_S
2013-09-24, 06:49 PM
So, let me get this straight: if you're a 2nd level Troll Fighter with a BAB of +6 (+4 because Troll, and +2 because Fighter level 2), you can attack with your Greatsword twice at +6/+1, then make secondary Claw attacks at +1/+1 [this requires dropping the Greatsword], and finally make a secondary-secondary bite attack at -4.

So, +6 sword/+1 sword/+1 claw/+1 claw/-4 bite

Alternatively, you can limit yourself to one Claw attack, which does not require dropping the sword, merely holding it in one hand.

+6 sword/+1 sword/+1 claw/+1 claw/-4 bite

Does that work?
No such thing as "secondary-secondary." If you attack with manufactured weapons, all of your natural attacks are secondary (-5, or -2 with multiattack). So, in your example, the bite attack is at +1. Otherwise, yes, that's right.

Equinox
2013-09-24, 07:13 PM
So, let me get this straight, again... if our Troll Fighter takes Multiattack and Quick Draw, and lumbers around with several Greatswords, his full attack routine is:

+6 (greatsword) / +4/+4/+4 (claw/claw/bite, dropping the sword as a free action) / +1 (draws another sword as a free action)

danzibr
2013-09-24, 07:54 PM
*edit*
Citation? I might just be missing something here...
I seem to recall this not being an explicit rule but rather implicit from stay blocks. I will try to look this up and get back to you.

EDIT: stay blocks = statblocks. Thanks autocorrect :/

A_S
2013-09-24, 08:00 PM
So, let me get this straight, again... if our Troll Fighter takes Multiattack and Quick Draw, and lumbers around with several Greatswords, his full attack routine is:

+6 (greatsword) / +4/+4/+4 (claw/claw/bite, dropping the sword as a free action) / +1 (draws another sword as a free action)
This is what I believe to be RAW.

Might be worth mentioning that this is something I'd houserule, to avoid incentivizing stupid stuff like carrying bags of greatswords around.

Keld Denar
2013-09-24, 08:34 PM
I seem to recall this not being an explicit rule but rather implicit from stay blocks. I will try to look this up and get back to you.

There aren't a lot of very clearly written rules regarding how creatures manufactured and natural weapons work. The best we can do is glean some information from their statblocks, which is dicey at best.

Do note that most giants have 2 slam attacks (as conforms with the normal rule of humanoid with slam + large+ size pattern). When they make manufactured weapon attacks, they don't get 1 slam attack (holding the 2handed weapon in one hand and making a slam secondary natural attack) as part of their full attack routine. This would suggest that such a thing isn't allowed.

Again, there are no explicit rules regarding this. You can look, but you won't find them. I've scoured pretty much every source and thought long and hard on this topic.