Pierce Magical Concealment vs Illusion Bane

[Firechanter]

One is a feat (with two prereq feats), the other is a cheapass +1 weapon property.

Both seem to do almost the same thing.
Pretty much the only difference seems to be that Illusion-Bane does not work against spells like Darkness, which are Evocation and not Illusion.

So. I have read high praises on PMC, but considering the high investment (3 feats), is it really worth it? The weapon property seems to be, relatively, a much better return of investment.

[herrhauptmann]

It's worth it to get the feat.
ex 1) Illusion bane won't help you in a stinking cloud (which grants concealment). PMC will. How many cloud spells are there that cause concealment?

ex 2) Your weapon has been lost or broken. You replaced it with a random find owned by the Dark Knight blackguard, that's technically an upgrade. But you've either got to get a new illusion bane sword, or sit there wishing you had the feat. Or sell the new find for the money to buy an IB.

[Jack_Simth]

One is a feat (with two prereq feats), the other is a cheapass +1 weapon property.

Both seem to do almost the same thing.
Pretty much the only difference seems to be that Illusion-Bane does not work against spells like Darkness, which are Evocation and not Illusion.

So. I have read high praises on PMC, but considering the high investment (3 feats), is it really worth it? The weapon property seems to be, relatively, a much better return of investment.

Let's see...

Illusion Bane is 1/day. Pierce Magical Concealment is constant.
Illusion Bane functions only against Illusions. Pierce Magical Concealment applies to all magic - including Fog, darkness, et cetera.

Illusion Bane does have a few advantages - much lower opportunity cost (it's a 7k upgrade, vs. 3 feat slots) - and if you succeed on the Dispel check, then the illusion is dispelled rather than you simply ignoring it. Illusion Bane doesn't cost you caster levels, Pierce Magical Concealment does.

They're not BIG advantages, though. Pierce Mgaical Concealment is superior (and it really should be).

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Let's see...

Illusion Bane is 1/day. Pierce Magical Concealment is constant.
Illusion Bane functions only against Illusions. Pierce Magical Concealment applies to all magic - including Fog, darkness, et cetera.

Illusion Bane does have a few advantages - much lower opportunity cost (it's a 7k upgrade, vs. 3 feat slots) - and if you succeed on the Dispel check, then the illusion is dispelled rather than you simply ignoring it. Illusion Bane doesn't cost you caster levels, Pierce Magical Concealment does.

They're not BIG advantages, though. Pierce Mgaical Concealment is superior (and it really should be).

I don't think you're looking at the current, MIC version of Illusion Bane. It allows you to ignore miss chances from illusion spells and effects that mimic illusion spells, all day every day. Its 1/day ability can dispel an illusion effect, which even after it's used the weapon still allows you to ignore miss chances for the rest of the day.

If you have the feats to spare, especially if you need Blind-Fight for something else (Master of Nine, Combat Awareness, etc.), and the caster level penalty won't hinder you, then go with Pierce Magical Concealment. Otherwise you probably want Illusion Bane, or if it's not good enough then put Throwing + Seeking on your weapon to ignore all miss chances.

[Firechanter]

Well, Illusion Bane is not 1/day. You get to ignore illusion-based miss chances _constantly_. Only the _dispel_ power is 1/day.

That said, I see the advantages and increased flexibility of PMC. A lot of miss-chance generators are not illusion based -- got it.

Background in this particular case, I'm thinking about getting PMC for my Warblade, so I want to make sure it's the right choice. At least the Warblade can get Blind-Fight for free, so the actual cost is down to 2 feats. Still quite expensive enough.

[Jack_Simth]

I don't think you're looking at the current, MIC version of Illusion Bane. It allows you to ignore miss chances from illusion spells and effects that mimic illusion spells, all day every day. Its 1/day ability can dispel an illusion effect, which even after it's used the weapon still allows you to ignore miss chances for the rest of the day.

If you have the feats to spare, especially if you need Blind-Fight for something else (Master of Nine, Combat Awareness, etc.), and the caster level penalty won't hinder you, then go with Pierce Magical Concealment. Otherwise you probably want Illusion Bane, or if it's not good enough then put Throwing + Seeking on your weapon to ignore all miss chances.

It got updated? Ah. I was looking at the DMG II.

[Icewraith]

Is there any other way to offset the caster level penalty of pierce magical concealment and prerequisite feats than blowing three more feats on practiced spellcaster?

[Dusk Eclipse]

Some people argue that Martial Arcanist class feature does that since it sets your CL=BAB and cite the "Apply penalties and bonuses in the most beneficial order" rule (however I haven't been able to find this rule in the books proper, so I'm kinda skeptical of that).

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Some people argue that Martial Arcanist class feature does that since it sets your CL=BAB and cite the "Apply penalties and bonuses in the most beneficial order" rule (however I haven't been able to find this rule in the books proper, so I'm kinda skeptical of that).

You can apply your own effects in the most beneficial order, clarified in the official FAQ. You could therefore apply the effects of the feats first, reducing your caster level, then apply the Martial Arcanist effect setting your caster level to your BAB, then apply Practiced Spellcaster last boosting your caster level up to your HD.

[Jack_Simth]

You can apply your own effects in the most beneficial order, clarified in the official FAQ. You could therefore apply the effects of the feats first, reducing your caster level, then apply the Martial Arcanist effect setting your caster level to your BAB, then apply Practiced Spellcaster last boosting your caster level up to your HD.

Just a warning: You will get highly varied opinions on the value of the FAQ. I suspect the version when acid both did and did not bypass hardness (depending on which section you checked), may have had some decidedly negative impacts on the opinions people held....

[tyckspoon]

(however I haven't been able to find this rule in the books proper, so I'm kinda skeptical of that).

To the best of my knowledge there is no official order of operation for applying effects in D&D. However, it is a complex enough game that there kind of needs to be one, and in the absence of hard rules "do it whatever way is most beneficial to the holder of the effects" is simple, easy to remember, and consistent. So we mostly just roll with it.

[Curmudgeon]

... and cite the "Apply penalties and bonuses in the most beneficial order" rule (however I haven't been able to find this rule in the books proper, so I'm kinda skeptical of that).
It's one of Skip Williams's house rules, from back when he was the Sage and writing those Rules of the Game articles. Skip had a tendency to just state things as "rules", without always telling you whether they were D&D rules or Skip rules. That tends to be somewhat frustrating for those of us who care about the distinction. Here's the actual text:
As a general guideline, whenever the rules don’t stipulate an order of operations for special effects (such as spells or special abilities), you should apply them in the order that’s most beneficial to the “controller” of the effect.

[Crake]

I'm thinking about getting PMC for my Warblade, so I want to make sure it's the right choice.

PMC + Hear the air pretty much means your blindsense from hear the air is blindsight vs magical concealment. So you can shoot into fog spells without misschance, since you can pinpoint the square an enemy is in, and invisible creatures likewise dont get the 50/50 miss chance for being invisible. It's a pretty sweet combo. Hell, you could probably argue that you wouldnt suffer the misschance from blindness (the spell) either.

[Gwendol]

If you have the feat to spare, PMC is great, if not Illusion bane. It's not like Mage Slayer is not worth taking, even if the CL reduction can be off-putting.

[Fouredged Sword]

Really, for a gish it's a 5-6 feat chain that covers mageslayer, PMC, PMP, and practical spellcaster to aliviate the CL loss.

For psionic and martial characters, they ignore the CL loss.

Really, I would strongly consider an illusion bane weapon at higher levels. A +2 weapon is as a spare you pull out to counter a school of magic isn't a bad idea, especially if you have some means of pinpointing a square the target is in, but not the target itself.

This would be doubly so if it bypasses mirror images. That would make an illusionbane dagger a great side weapon to pull out and throw at the pesky wizard.