Question on dispelling dimensional lock from a forcecage

[Zorgoth]

Suppose I'm fighting a monster with access to greater teleport and greater dispel magic, and I'm a wizard/archmage with mastery of shaping, time stop, dimensional lock, and forcecage.

I decide I want to trap the monster in a forcecage inside a dimensional lock. Under what circumstances can the monster dispel the dimensional lock? Based on the spell description, I'm thinking the dimensional lock is a two dimensional surface (a "barrier" as in its description rather than filling the whole space) and that if you can't see it from inside the forcecage, you can't dispel it. I also am thinking that you can teleport inside the dimensionally locked area, just not to anywhere outside of it. Is that correct? The center is probably is considered the "point of origin" of the spell as defined in the area dispel magic description, so maybe you can dispel it if that is inside the forcecage. But I could be completely wrong.

So if I am correct, and if I cast a time stop and using mastery of shaping, create a dimensional lock over the monster just larger than a forcecage whose "center" is outside the area where I will place the forcecage, then ready an action to forcecage the monster as soon as the time stop ends, that the monster cannot teleport out because it will not fit in the space between the forcecage and the dimensional lock and cannot dispel the dimensional lock. Thus (presuming it doesn't have disintegrate, disjunction, or a rod of cancellatoin) the monster would be utterly trapped (and since forcecage lasts more than a day, I could confine it indefinitely).

Is this a correct assessment, or is the dimensional lock actually an entire three dimensional area where teleportation does not function at all, and thus vulnerable to dispel magic from within the forcecage? And since its point of origin is outside the forcecage, can it be targeted? And if that is a problem for dispelling it, would an area dispel allow the monster an escape route?

[Brookshw]

Sounds about right as long as dimensional is dropped first and loe is negated.

[Tulya]

Dimensional Lock is an emanation, which must have line of effect to actually affect a given square. If you don't have line of effect to dispel the emanation, it seems unlikely that it would have line of effect to your square.

There's the relevant rule:
A burst, cone, cylinder, or emanation spell affects only an area, creatures, or objects to which it has line of effect from its origin (a spherical burst’s center point, a cone-shaped burst’s starting point, a cylinder’s circle, or an emanation’s point of origin).

[eggynack]

First off, dimensional lock in fact does take up a three dimensional space. There's nothing that really indicates a shape, so it defaults to a sphere. The description of burst says, "The default shape for a burst effect is a sphere," and emanation says, "An emanation spell functions like a burst spell, except that the effect continues to radiate from the point of origin for the duration of the spell."

Second of all, I'm pretty sure that a dimensional lock can't penetrate the windowless version of a wall of force if the point of origin is outside it, and the guy inside will be able to dispel the point of origin if you use the windowed version.

Finally, I don't think there's anything particularly important about a point of origin that would make that the thing you need to dispel. It's just the one big spell area. It's a factor for an area dispel, but the spell description doesn't say anything about point of origin in the targeted dispel section. Worst case scenario, the creature could use a targeted dispel on himself, and hit " each ongoing spell currently in effect on the object or creature." I don't really think this works, is what I'm saying.

[Jack_Simth]

First off, dimensional lock in fact does take up a three dimensional space. There's nothing that really indicates a shape, so it defaults to a sphere. The description of burst says, "The default shape for a burst effect is a sphere," and emanation says, "An emanation spell functions like a burst spell, except that the effect continues to radiate from the point of origin for the duration of the spell."

Second of all, I'm pretty sure that a dimensional lock can't penetrate the windowless version of a wall of force if the point of origin is outside it, and the guy inside will be able to dispel the point of origin if you use the windowed version.

Finally, I don't think there's anything particularly important about a point of origin that would make that the thing you need to dispel. It's just the one big spell area. It's a factor for an area dispel, but the spell description doesn't say anything about point of origin in the targeted dispel section. Worst case scenario, the creature could use a targeted dispel on himself, and hit " each ongoing spell currently in effect on the object or creature." I don't really think this works, is what I'm saying.

I would leave it at "I agree" if it weren't for the character minimum.

[Chronos]

The Dimensional Lock has an area, a 20' emanation. You can dispel it from inside that area.

Don't think of it as a barrier around the area-- You're thinking in too few dimensions. The barrier is between this plane and other planes.

[Douglas]

If you don't have line of effect from the Dimensional Lock's point of origin to the creature, then the creature is not prevented from teleporting because the Dimensional Lock's emanation is blocked. If you do, then it has line of effect to the Dimensional Lock's point of origin to be able to cast a dispel at it.

You'll need to resort to some other tactic to make your Dimensional Lock undispellable.

[KillianHawkeye]

I also am thinking that you can teleport inside the dimensionally locked area, just not to anywhere outside of it. Is that correct?

No. Teleportation is instantaneous travel through the astral plane. You cannot teleport within, into, or out of a dimensional lock.

[nedz]

We have two viable cases

The Dimensional Lock is centred within the Forcecage
The Dimensional Lock is centred outside the Forcecage but surrounds it completely


The first case is covered by eggyneck's response. The Monster can Dispel the Dimensional Lock and Teleport out.

The Second case is as KillianHawkeye described. The Monster is not in the Dimensional Lock because the Forcecage blocks the emanation, but he can only teleport to another point within the cage. He cannot dispel the Dimensional Lock. Unfortunately this is hard to do because Dimensional Lock is an emanation and not a spread so the Forcecage blocks the Dimensional Lock. You would need multiple Dimensional Locks to surround the Forcecage completely — two in fact, at opposing corners of the cube.

[eggynack]

The Second case is as KillianHawkeye described. The Monster is not in the Dimensional Lock because the Forcecage blocks the emanation, but he can only teleport to another point within the cage. He cannot dispel the Dimensional Lock. Unfortunately this is hard to do because Dimensional Lock is an emanation and not a spread so the Forcecage blocks the Dimensional Lock. You would need multiple Dimensional Lock to surround the Forcecage completely — two in fact, at opposing corners of the cube.
I don't think that just having a dimensional lock surrounding the forcecage is enough to prevent teleportation. You need to actually be within the emanation to have your teleportation blocked, and if its blocked by a forcecage, you're not within the emanation. Being totally surrounded wouldn't really make a difference by my reading. Dimensional lock blocks travel to and from the astral plane, but that doesn't stop you from going somewhere that isn't locked.

[KillianHawkeye]

The Second case is as KillianHawkeye described. The Monster is not in the Dimensional Lock because the Forcecage blocks the emanation, but he can only teleport to another point within the cage. He cannot dispel the Dimensional Lock. Unfortunately this is hard to do because Dimensional Lock is an emanation and not a spread so the Forcecage blocks the Dimensional Lock. You would need multiple Dimensional Locks to surround the Forcecage completely — two in fact, at opposing corners of the cube.

Yeah, no. That is not what I was describing AT ALL.

If the guy is not being affected by dimensional lock, then he can teleport through the astral plane to anyplace else that is not affected by dimensional lock. Like to the nearest tavern for a pint.

My comment was merely to refute the OP's idea that it was possible to still teleport within the confines of a dimensional lock but just be unable to leave. That is not the case. Dimensional lock shuts down all forms of dimensional travel within, into or out of its area.

Note that any places that are blocked by, say, a wall of force, are not part of dimensional lock's effected area and thus, not restricted in any way from accessing plane shift or teleport, etc.

What you are describing is only going to prevent the trapped creature from teleporting from within the cage to just outside it. He'd still be able to teleport a mile away or wherever else he wants.

[Zorgoth]

Oh well, I guess it doesn't work then. If I just don't want to be eaten, I can always put myself in a forcecage with a dimensional lock though :D

[Emperor Tippy]

Time Stop + Dimensional Lock + Forcecage over the area means that the enemy can't teleport out of the force cage but they can dispel the Dimensional Lock from inside the Force Cage (and the Dimensional Lock does nothing to anyone outside of the Force Cage).

[nedz]

But the Astral Plane is coterminous with the prime so there is no path through which you can Teleport without passing through the Dimensional Lock. I guess it depends upon how you view Teleport working.

[TuggyNE]

But the Astral Plane is coterminous with the prime so there is no path through which you can Teleport without passing through the Dimensional Lock. I guess it depends upon how you view Teleport working.

Think 4-dimensionally. When you teleport, you are not (at least at first) moving in any of the three normal dimensions of the Material Plane, but in a dimension perpendicular to all of them. So no merely three-dimensional barrier can hold you unless it is impinging on the exact spot you're trying to leave from or go to.

[KillianHawkeye]

But the Astral Plane is coterminous with the prime so there is no path through which you can Teleport without passing through the Dimensional Lock. I guess it depends upon how you view Teleport working.

Yeah, but the dimensional lock does not exist on the astral plane. It only stops you from going there, but once you're there you're golden.

[Douglas]

The Astral being coterminous with the Material does not automatically mean spells on one plane affect both. The Ethereal plane has the same status, and only force spells and abjurations get to automatically affect it when cast on the material, and only because they have a specific rule saying so.

There is no such specific rule regarding any category of spells and the Astral plane. Once you're in the Astral, no spell on the material plane will bar your way until you return. Spells on the material plane can only block teleportation at the end points.

[nedz]

Yeah, but the dimensional lock does not exist on the astral plane. It only stops you from going there, but once you're there you're golden.

Fair enough, but what happens if you stick a Dimensional Lock on the Astral ?
This wouldn't be blocked by the Force Cage so only one would be required.

[Douglas]

Fair enough, but what happens if you stick a Dimensional Lock on the Astral ?
This wouldn't be blocked by the Force Cage so only one would be required.
That is an excellent idea that just might work, but depends on some things that I don't think are clearly defined. It requires a direct and unchanging mapping of locations on the Astral to locations on the Material, and that the area in the Astral corresponding to your target Forcecage area is contiguous and small and spherical enough to fit inside your Dimensional Lock. Even if that condition is satisfied, and I'm not sure if even the Manual of the Planes even addresses it at all, much less confirms it, you would still have to travel to that area for a much longer visit than any derivative of Teleport can get you and cast the spell. This is a non-trivial endeavor.

[Curmudgeon]

Fair enough, but what happens if you stick a Dimensional Lock on the Astral ?
This wouldn't be blocked by the Force Cage so only one would be required.
The Astral Plane isn't coterminous with any specific part of the Material Plane, unlike the Ethereal Plane. You would need to Dimensional Lock the entire Astral Plane to make that work. :smallamused:

[nedz]

Oh well, you could do it on the Ethereal with Transdimensional Spell easily enough — but that doesn't help here.

[Emperor Tippy]

Oh well, you could do it on the Ethereal with Transdimensional Spell easily enough — but that doesn't help here.

Doesn't work, Transdimensional doesn't let you go from Ethereal to Material, only Material to Ethereal.

[Chronos]

And even if you did lock the astral, that would still allow for the possibility of escape through other planes. Shadow Walk, maybe. Gate or Plane Shift might also work; I can't remember if they explicitly go through the astral plane.