Thrown weapon skillmonkey?

[SciChronic]

As the title says, i'm thinking about making a scout who specializes in thrown weapons -something i've never really used before- and skillmonkeying, but i have no idea to go about it.

all splatbooks allowed, as well as Dragon Compendium

LA buyoff and flaws/traits rules allowed

i'm thinking a Dark Whispergnome, Dark Strongheart Halfling, or Dark Catfolk (50ft movement before scout levels) for race.

As for PrC i'm interested in Master Thrower, but is not exactly neccesary. side note: could you doubletoss and palm throw at the same time? and would that make 4 skirmish rolls if i moved 10ft before the attack? because that would allow me to keep strength as a dump stat

so could you guys help me iron out the details?

current plan:

Race: (Dark?) Strongheart Halfling
1 Halfling Rogue 1: Precise Shot, Point Blank Shot, Far Shot, Craven, Noncombatant, Poor Reflexes
2 Rogue 2
3 Halfling Rogue 3: Item Familiar
4 Rogue 4
5 Swordsage 1: Weapon Focus(Shadow Hand)
6 Arcane Hunter Trap Expert Ranger 1: Dead Eye
7 Ranger 2: TWF
8 Swordsage 2
9 Master Thrower 1: Quick Draw, Weapon Finesse
10 Master Thrower 2
11 Master Thrower 3
12 Whisperknife 1: Rapid Shot, Woodland Archer
13 Whisperknife 2
14 Whisperknife 3
15 Whisperknife 4: Darkstalker
16 Whisperknife 5
17 Whisperknife 6
18 Whisperknife 7: Something
19 Whisperknife 8
20 Swordsage 3

[Phelix-Mu]

Some of the Master Thrower stuff runs afoul of volley rules, as I recall. Precision/skirmish only applies to one weapon out of a volley, I think. This is an area of some confusion, and it was clarified after Complete Warrior, so the PrC itself may be misleading. Can't recall.

You should be aiming to get Master Thrower ASAP. I dunno if your build can be accelerated, but it would be worth playing around to see if it's possible.

Other stuff that is cool for thrower builds.

1.) First racial substitution level for halfling rogues (Races of the Wild). Bonus sneak attack damage for thrown weapons. +2d6, even situationally, is pretty nice, and rogue often makes an excellent first level for a skill monkey. Plus, rogue has a ton of ACFs that can help add to the special type of character you are looking for.

2.) First racial substitution level for halfling monk. Not as useful, but an alternate method of gaining skirmish aside from scout levels.

3.) Whisperknife. Kind of busy and feat intensive, but it is worth a look.

4.) Halfling Rock-Skipping Champion. Only if the DM allows homebrew, but this is a classic off of this site. I've been itching to play one since forever, but never have managed to get one off the ground.

[SciChronic]

1)What should i do for attributes?
2)Is there a feat adds Dex to damage rather than Str? i think Dead Eye would, but i try to use stuff from Dragon Compendium as little as possible.
3)Is there a way to extend my skirmish range? (i'd also need to find a way to increase my thrown weapon range)
4)what would be the best weapon to use? i'd personally like to use throwing axes or daggers, but enchanting multiple weapons with +1 returning would burn a massive hole in my wallet. Maybe Weapon Crystals of Return (least/greater)? even with greater crystals, i need to design the character to start around level 9, so they're a bit pricey.

[Jeff the Green]

2)Is there a feat adds Dex to damage rather than Str? i think Dead Eye would, but i try to use stuff from Dragon Compendium as little as possible.

Take this link (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125732). Bookmark it. Use it. Uuuuuse it.

Of note is Shadow Blade. You'd need to dip Swordsage (which isn't a bad idea on its own, as you could pick up Assassin's Stance for 2d6 sneak attack and some useful maneuvers), and it'd apply only to daggers and sais (and some other non-thrown weapons), but it's good. If you feel like another dip, you can go into targeteer (Dr #310) drow (DotU) fighter (which doesn't actually require you to be a drow) to get Dex again to all ranged attacks and again to all flat-footed foes.


4)what would be the best weapon to use? i'd personally like to use throwing axes or daggers, but enchanting multiple weapons with +1 returning would burn a massive hole in my wallet. Maybe Weapon Crystals of Return (least/greater)? even with greater crystals, i need to design the character to start around level 9, so they're a bit pricey.

Shadow Blade only works with daggers and sais, so there's that. Psychic warrior or kineticist can get telekinetic boomerang, which makes a weapon return immediately after thrown, but it is alas a 3rd level power. There are other ways, I believe. Check out the 14th Zinc Saucier (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=285337) for ideas, as one of the abilities that needed to be emulated was returning weapons.

[Phelix-Mu]

My reading of Shadow Blade seems to allow it only to work with melee damage. While I imagine there is a Bloodstorm Blade workaround, is there something that I am missing?

[Jeff the Green]

My reading of Shadow Blade seems to allow it only to work with melee damage. While I imagine there is a Bloodstorm Blade workaround, is there something that I am missing?

No, i just missed the word "melee." Bother.

[SciChronic]

Finding out how to make skirmish do good damage and have a reliable return is becoming increasingly difficult.

I would need to dip whisperknife for 3 levels or bloodstorm blade for 4, but the majority of the class features would end up wasted, so moving after a skirmish attack is effectively out the window meaning shot on the run is as well.

and if i was to dip whisper knife i would want to wait until after the first level of master thrower or the free quick draw would be wasted, so i'd want a full BAB level or two to expedite the process, sacrificing skirmish levels unless i took ranger w/ swift hunter

If i were to dip BSB i would need to dip warblade or burn two feats

i guess, in the end rogue would be a better base class over scout, but how would i reliably get sneak attacks? the 10 foot flank from whisperknife doesnt seem that useful as i'd want to stay 35ft away if possible.

I won't give up though, the thought of a cocky, dagger throwing, sneaky, trap disabling, lock picking, PC is too tempting

side note: i really with Returning let you make iteratives

[Phelix-Mu]

Part of the problem is that you are sacrificing BAB for cool class features. A normal workaround to keep precision damage but get into the game fast is sneak attack fighter or swashbuckler, but both pretty much lose out on the skill-monkey aspect that rogue and scout bring to the table.

Either way, this is usually a build that is pretty combat oriented. No two ways about it, almost all full BAB classes are totally shafted when it comes to skills.

Ranger might be worth a gander, but you then have a bunch of ranger class features that aren't much use. Still, if you took a level of ranger for 1st and maybe 2nd, then that targeteer fighter variant mentioned (from Dragon Magz, and not in the compendium, from what I recall). That should be enough full BAB, but at that point skill monkeyness is pretty much reduced (and at the earliest levels, where it is arguably most relevant).

I also love a good skill monkey. If you can get the DM to greenlight a monk fix that gives monk full BAB (a bunch of the ones on this site do), then chaotic monk might be a good match. Especially if the DM then allows the halfling monk substitution level to work, which gets you at least a little bit of skirmish. Improved Skirmish (Complete Scoundrel) might be possible, but I think that might require multiple monk levels.

And that is all soundly in the homebrew basket, which requires a brave DM.

[SciChronic]

I was interested in Whisperknife primarily for the improved catch ability, which would pair really well with skirmish since you have to move. Makes me with that they should just change PrC +SA/Skirmish/SS into just +1d6 Precision

part of it is that i want to be a tier 3 max skillmonkey w/ trapfinding w/o spellcasting (the group i play with doesn't optimize as much as i do, so i make suggestions to the group as well as limit myself), so that pretty much limits me to Rogue, Scout, Ninja, Factotum, and Ranger (w/ dungeonscape ACF).

the specialization in thrown weapons was a flavor decision and i want to see how far i can take it.

If i use the Ranger ACF i would need some kind of dip for Sleight of hand or i'd be level 8 before i can take Master Thrower it'd look something like:
1) Precise shot
Flaw 1) Point Blank Shot
Flaw 2) Weapon Focus
Ranger 2) Rapid Shot
3) Item Familiar (to cover the lost skill points from rogue/scout)
6) Far Shot
Master Thrower 1) Quick Draw
9) Dead Eye
12) Woodland Archer

[Abemad]

You could look at Tormtor School from Drow of the Underdark, and make a strength based javelin throwing scout :D Add a dash of barbarian to get pounce, and you have a decent charging scout, with a free throw on a charge, with skirmish on all attacks.

[pilvento]

Whisperknife is the best Prc for a thrower, i know its not your plan but Rogue Penetrating strike ACF + Whisperknife is your best call, you can dip ranger 2 for feats and track.

[SciChronic]

my issues with whisperknife are:
1) getting sneak attacks with thrown weapons
2) the quick draw feat requirement

i would want to use daggers or throwing axes if possible, which limits my range increment to 10ft, 20ft if i take far shot, giving me pretty limited range to hide/snipe to reliably flank i would need 9 levels in whisper knife, or just be within 5ft at 3 levels in whisperknife, at which point there's no reason to throw my weapons

the quick draw requirement i want to solve with the first level in Master Thrower otherwise the feat jsut gets wasted

so it would look something like:
Strongheart halfling Rogue 4 (penetrating strike & substitution levels)/Arcane Hunter Ranger 2/ Master Thrower 3/ Whisperknife 3/ Something X

Also, my DM has given the OK that Sneak Attack progression for PrCs made before Ninja/Scout were made are now just Precision Progression (if you lacked a precision damage type before then, you gain Sneak Attack)

[pilvento]

Thats true, till you can flank in 9th lvl its hard to deliver sneak attack, and abut the range issue remember precition dmg caps at 30ft range.

If your dm already agreed on that ask him if he agrees to give whiperknife skirmish progresion.

Btw, Swift hunter X / master thrower is not a bad idea at all.
Improved skirmish + double toss gives you 2 hits each round after moving 20 ft for a good presition dmg, double toss is not a volley attack.

How much do you need to optimice the characters? what are the others playing or expecting?

[SciChronic]

i optimize pretty heavily because i also put restrictions on myself. This time around it is no Spellcasting (no wands other than restoratives), no base classes higher than tier 3, skillmonkey, specializes in thrown weapons

maybe i should just go Martial Rogue 1, Arcane Hunter Trap Expert Ranger 5, Master Thrower 3, Whisperknife X, Swordsage X?

[the OOD]

my current character is pretty much exactly what you are describing, but with iaijustu focus and quick draw at 1st level. there are a few skill tricks in CS that are good (hidden blade, misquito's bite, and *maybe* acrobatic backstab) as well as smokesticks, marbles, springwalls, and other trick items.

[SciChronic]

Martial Rogue 1/Arcane Hunter Trap Expert Ranger 5/Master Thrower 3 feels like a good starting point. I wish i could have gotten Skirmish to work, as it would've been easier to pull off vs. sneak attack, but getting my weapons to reliably return to me was an issue, as my goal was to move 20 feet, to get in range of a 20ft. throw via Far Shot then run 20ft back, but the necessity of 3 levels of Whisperknife to make it work sacrifices too much from a variety of factors.

since i'm no longer using skirmish or sneak attack, i'm not sure if i even need whispergnome. If so, i'll need more sources of damage, knowledge devotion might be good since knowledge(nature) and knowledge (dungeoneering) are ranger skills and knowledge local to a degree.

EDIT: then again the Sneaky shot weapon trick would make for super easy sneak attacks... my brain noodle is getting very confused now...

so Rogue 4 (halfling rogue substitution, Penetrating strike)/ Arcane Hunter Trap Expert Ranger 2/ Master Thrower 3/ Whisperknife 8/ Swordsage 3?

[gorfnab]

One build I've used previously:
Strongheart Halfling or Human
1. Rogue - Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Craven, Far Shot, 2x Flaws
2. Swashbuckler - B: Weapon Finesse
3. Rogue - Two Weapon Fighting
4. Rogue - Penetrating Strike ACF(DS)
5. Swashbuckler
6. Swordsage - B: Weapon Focus: Shadow Hand weapons, Shadowblade
7. Swashbuckler
8. Fighter - Hit-and-Run Tactics ACF (DotU - if your DM is lenient), Targeteer ACF (DragMag 310)- Vital Aim
9. Fighter - Targeteer ACF - Rapid Shot, Improved Two Weapon Fighting
10. Swordsage
11. Master Thrower - B: Quick Draw
12. Master Thrower - Dead Eye (DragMag 304)
13. Master Thrower
14. Master Thrower - B: Snatch Arrows
15. Master Thrower - B: Improved Critical, Greater Two Weapon Fighting
16. Invisible Blade
17. Invisible Blade
18. Invisible Blade - Improved Precise Shot
19. Invisible Blade
20. Invisible Blade

Some ideas for getting infinite daggers to throw:
Gauntlet of Infinite Blades (MIC) -ask the DM if you can change it to Free action activation instead of Swift. That way you can get more than one dagger per round.
Glove of Endless Javelins (MIC) - ask the DM if you can change the javelin part to daggers if you also reduce the damage from 1d6+1 to 1d4+1
Quiver of Anariel - ask the DM if you can change the "Quiver" to "Bandoleer" and arrow(s) to dagger(s).
Quiver of Anariel



Quiver of Anariel:Quivers of Anariel appear to be typical arrow containers capable of holding a score of arrows. However, the quivers automatically replenish themselves with standard or magical arrows, such that they are always full. Some quivers also create arrows made of special materials, such as adamantine, cold iron, or alchemical silver.

Once an arrow it taken from the quiver, it must be used within 1 round or it vanishes.

Moderate conjuration; CL 7th; Craft Wondrous Item, magic weapon, minor creation; Price 28,000 gp (standard arrows), 29,000 gp (masterwork arrows), 32,000 gp (+1 arrows), 44,000 gp (+2 arrows), 64,000 gp (+3 arrows), 92,000 gp (+4 arrows), 128,000 gp (+5 arrows); Add an additional +6,000 gp for adamantine arrows, +4,005 gp for cold iron arrows, or +200 gp for alchemical silver arrows; Weight 1 lb.
Thankfully someone saved this article here (http://web.archive.org/web/20070401150041/http:/ww2.wizards.com/Books/Wizards/?doc=fr_lonedrowstats) since WOTC decided to delete the original posting.

Other items to consider:
Rogue's Vest (MIC)
Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis (ToM)
Bracers of the Hunter (SoX)

[SciChronic]

Current Build:
{table]Level|Class|Feat
1|halfling rogue 1|Precise Shot, Point Blank Shot, Craven, Far Shot, Noncombatant(flaw), Poor Reflexes(flaw)
2|rogue 2|
3|halfling rogue 3|Item Familiar
4|rogue 4|
5|Swordsage 1|Weapon Focus (Shadow Hand)
6|Ranger 1|Dead Eye
7|Ranger 2|TWF
8|Master Thrower 1|Quick Draw
9|Master Thrower 2|Weapon Finesse
10|Master Thrower 3|
11|Whisper Knife 1|Rapid Shot
12|Whisper Knife 2|Woodland Archer
13|Whisper Knife 3|
14|Whisper Knife 4|
15|Whisper Knife 5|Darkstalker
16|Whisper Knife 6|
17|Whisper Knife 7|
18|Whisper Knife 8|Something
19|Swordsage 2|
20|Swordsage 3|[/table]
the only "dead level" is level 20 :D

[SciChronic]

After much deliberation... this is the Knife Thrower i have settled on for now:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AjCgFIGwxLxxdERqcHlBdEFObWFPYm5qd3haNktQR 3c&usp=sharing

The Build hits it's real stride at level 9, where i'd start using the character or you could add the Dark or Necropolitan templates to be a better scout. Access to Sneak Shot allows me to actually make use of my sneak attack die. I would take Penetrating Strike if i could, but it only functions with flanks, and i intend on staying as far away from melee combat as i can manage. Still not sure what i would take as a CL18 Feat. If it was necropolitan than i would take lifesense, but other than that...

So this build can effectively function as a scout and face, as well as contribute in combat via sneak attacks.

the carried knives are more for show and RP than for real use, but if i'm desperate enough, they could see some use.

Inventory represents starting inventory at level 9

The Gloves function as such: 5000g results in the force effect and weapon creation, then standard weapon enhancement, so 8000g for +2 force daggers