Need some tips for gangs of low cr humanoids

[Nachoman_Randy]

Hi there, i'm currently mastering a lvl 7 dungeon and I have some problem making gangs of low CR humanoids threatening to my pc's.

The party right now consits of 5 level 7 pcs, a barbarian, a paladin, a rogue, a cleric and a wizard.

How do I make a gang of goblins, orcs or drow a challange for them? Right now the cleric, the rogue, the paladin and the wizard with buffs have so much AC and the barbarian hits always and for lots of damage with moderate ac.

Even with flanking my humanoids need 20 to hit the party. And the barbarian can butcher the lot of them with cleave, so my party wont use much resources per enconter. For instance the mage can just sit and relax, knowing he can't get hit so he does not need to burn a spell.

Are there any rules to improve the danger when a pc is surronded? Are there any tactics the npcs can make wich hurts the party and don't require a natural 20?

Thanks in advance for any advice!

[Dread_Head]

Make them Barbarian 1/ Rogue 1 then they gain 1d6 sneak attack for flanking and rage for +4 str and con or one of the variants such as Whirling Frenzy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/classFeatureVariants.htm).

Then throw in a 3rd level bard using inspire courage with Inspirational boost (SpC), a Badge of Valor (MIC), and possibly Heart of the Song (ECS) (available at level 3 depending if you can take feats at the level you get the class ability prereq? If not only +3 and can be taken as a level 2 bard) giving +4 to hit and damage. Possibly a similar bard to above but using Dragonfire Inspiration (DrM) if you want them to kick out 4d6 fire damage as well. And have them lead by a leader with at least three levels in War Chief (Minatures handbook an ECL 6 character if entered with a full BAB class) for another +4 strength.

This should give a bunch of low CR enemies a powerful kick in combat, they'll be low in AC and HP though. You can vary the strengths of the buffing leaders if you want to tone up or down the difficulty of the encounter. You can also add in casters to cast buffs on them all to further enhance their combat abilities (a casting of haste is particularly effective for this sort of encounter.)

[ArcturusV]

Well, one thing is you have to stop fighting like a PC. That SEEMS like the problem you're having. I'm not sure if it is... but you're thinking in terms of PC tactics. Congaline of Death, flank and swarm. And Full Attack into it.

Thing is, your low CR humanoids aren't PCs, and shouldn't be using PC tactics.

Think of all the things out there that players don't pick up typically. It depends on part, what your group does. But generally I find there's a few things in common. These "No player in their right mind takes it" options are the start of your tactics.

One thing that it does sound like you're dealing with is, like a lot of parties, your team has become tactically stale. Remember that Humanoids, much more than monsters, are part of community. If the party relies on one standard tactic to kill them off, over and over? They're going to find out about it, spread the knowledge of "These asshats keep killing us doing this exact thing over and over", and are going to compensate.

It sounds like from what you've talked about the issues are:

The Barbarian is optimized to drop tightly packed mobs/swarming enemies in melee.

Your party has chosen to Maximize AC as their primary defense, and relies on a defensive style.

I have no idea what your Rogue or Paladin are doing in particular.

Here's my thoughts on how to do it, and how to challenge your players a bit more.

1 is making sure you use appropriate numbers of enemies. If you're running a Goblin encounter for example a "balanced" fight should probably consist of almost... 15ish Goblins if I remember my math right off the top of my head. So they have an advantage in action economy over the players, trading individual weakness for having 3 times as many actions per round, which is key to how Goblins survive against Douchebag Adventurers. :smallbiggrin:

If they're boosting AC significantly to the point where the goblins realize they can't just stab these jerks, and are melee beasts then the Goblins are going to adapt different tactics. Touch AC is notoriously low and easy to hit, even on high level characters. Your wizard for example, probably has a grand total of... maybe 12-13 Touch AC? Combined with other typical wizard attributes this means that a Goblin can generally neutralize your wizard (Or at least give him something to think about) by something as simple as throwing a net at him. Attack against Touch AC (So likely to hit). Requires a DC 25 strength check or DC 20 Escape Artist to get out. Forces a Concentration check on any spell casting. Unless he greases himself, probably not going to escape the net. Concentration checks just might make him sweat a bit (I think "trapped in a net and likely to get attacked" counts as threatened so he shouldn't be allowed to take 10 on the Concentration. DC is low, but he still might have about a 20% chance to flub his spells because of it).

So your goblins just make the Wizard suddenly go "... oh... crap. Something might actually effect me!". Then you have the barbarian. I like Bolas to this. You can easily have 3 Goblin skirmishers just sitting there with a readied action to Bola the Barb if he tries to charge. 3 ranged trip attack attempts (Again against Touch AC, and using the Goblin's Dex), have a decent chance at forcing him on his ass. So he's not going to charge and smite a goblin down every turn, he's mostly going to be picking himself up off the ground.

That leaves the Rogue, Cleric, and Paladin to deal with. The Cleric LIKELY can be dealt with similar to the Wizard, perhaps the Rogue too (Though he might have the Escape Artist ranks and dex to just laugh at it), but it's less likely. Paladin can be dealt with like the Barbarian. Combine this with mobile Goblins (They all use Ranged tactics/ambush weapons so far). Once people are sewn up you can do things like... have a couple of goblins rush the Wizard, grapple, and start choking him out.

Now I'm not suggesting you run every encounter with similar tactics, it's just an example. This sort of tactic punishes players for two things: Spending their time buffing AC up, and relying on one/two sources for their ability to deal with mobs of creatures.

When they adapt to the tactics the goblins use? The goblins start to use new tactics as the Local Murderhobos are killing them again.

Stagnation is always the bane of warriors of any ilk. You have to keep the tactical options dynamic by using everything. For the sake of your setting however, keep in mind the cultural flavor and facts of life of the humanoids in question.

Goblins are small, cowardly, physically weak. They're going to look for tactics where they remain highly mobile, sap the strength of the "Big dumb brutes" and then use their superior numbers to whittle down their enemies.

Humans for example however are more likely to use "Professional Military" standards. They might do things have their warriors form ranks, make a shield wall (Good luck Barbarian/Paladin/Rogue dealing with a 50% miss chance, his life just got more annoying) and archers behind them using the Arrow Volley Rules (Targets a square, not a character, they take Xd[Arrow Damage] per 5 archers in a volley with a DC 15 Reflex save for half. Your Rogue is the only one not sweating that).

Elves mix in hit and run with magic, using perhaps Alchemy or low level spells to suplement tactics of setting up an ambush, fighting just one or maybe two rounds, then running away to set up the next ambush.

All things that players typically don't do. But fits a lot more with the idea that they are low CR, group and community oriented types who fight as a unit, and not as Thugs. Goblin Warbands are not Adventurers and shouldn't use Adventurer "Flank and kill" tactics.

[Nachoman_Randy]

Thanks! Gonna adapt my gobos and drows more to the high ac!

[gooddragon1]

If you want to be extremely mean: Dragonfire Adept (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1101061).

Just 1 level and they have a breath weapon dealing 1d6 of fire. Take endure exposure and have them use it on each other and they don't risk harming each other. AC is unimportant here as you're forcing reflex saves. It can get worse if you decide to give them entangling exhalation so don't do that please.

EDIT: If they get lots of fire resistance you can always go warlock and fire eldritch blast touch attacks at them. Extra cruelty is getting spider climb invocation (don't do this because they can't effectively fight them without ranged weapons if the enemies are too high up).

[ArcturusV]

Drow have the added advantage that they DO use cannon fodder, a lot, in their tactics. At least in standard fluff, settings, and games. So you might want to start thinking about things like... Drow using high defense "slaves" or large numbers of disposable ones like Gobbos, Kobolds, etc, to just bum rush the PCs. Grapples, trips, overruns, disarms, have them go for all the combat manuevers and never really attacking HP. Combine that with drow clerics/mages in the rear, dropping Acid Bolts, Chain Lightnings, Fireballs, Bane, Curse, etc, etc, etc. A small cadre of high level Drow Warriors defending the casters... and you have a nightmare scenario for most parties. Even if it's just "suboptimal blasting". You'd be surprised how many bricks PCs **** when they are grappled and get Lightning Bolted.

And drow shouldn't be Low CR. Not really. But that's colored by my early experiences with Drow where a "Warband" of 5 or 6 was supposed to be a "**** your pants" level encounter at level 8, back in the day.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Have you ever heard of Tucker's (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=272735#11) Kobolds (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=288440#12)?

[avr]

Note feats like Martial Study from the Tome of Battle - if they're not likely to get more than one attack, make it a good one. Drow fighters are likely to have the INT necessary for cbt expertise/improved trip, or a 2nd level orc barbarian (wolf totem) can get it without needing INT at all. Being prone will make PCs easier targets.

Goblins' favorite tactics involve trying to stab people in their sleep; failing that alchemists fire, acid and/or tanglefoot bags target touch AC.

[Deca4531]

@ArcturusV :

I have to admit I have had this problem many times in my own DMing experience. most of the time I just DM ruled things to make things tougher like maxing mob HD or giving them a percentile based ability to hit instead of adding up bonuses. I never really considered the tactics based fighting style like that but now that you lay it out like that I feel a fool for never thinking of it before.

[Runestar]

Here are some cool ways to boost the attack values of your mooks.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=171284

Scroll down and read the part about improving the horde forces.

[Studoku]

If you want a horde of zombies/goblins/etc., check out the Mob template in Cityscape. It turns a group of small/medium creatures into a swarm, complete with damage if you get caught inside it and a pretty dangerous grapple check.

[Fouredged Sword]

Alchemy items are a nice touch, as are nets and bolos.

I also like a tower shield line protecting archers. The barbarian can eat a few vollies of alchemist fire bolts before he can bypass the line of goblins that only lower their tower shields long enough for the archers to fire a volley of touch attacks.

Also, 4 goblins can surround a character and raise tower shields. If the roof is low enough, you now have a character in a box with little means of getting out. It makes a good temporary block of a high threat character like a charger.