Warmage with Arcane Disciple - what domain?

[Gwendol]

I'm making an FR Warmage, thinking of going Lesser Aasimar for the CHA/WIS bonuses.
Now, to expand the spell list Arcane Disciple seems like a solid choice, the question is what domain to choose. My current favorites are Akadi (Air, Illusion, Travel, Trickery) with my top two domains being travel and trickery
The other deity under consideration is Mystra (Good, Illusion, Knowledge, Magic, Rune, Spell) and here the top two domains are Illusion and Spell.

Spell is interesting because of Anyspell: seems incredibly useful for a warmage. The way the spell works it essentially allows you to read and learn any spell (up to 2nd level) for that day, and due to the mechanics of the warmage casting, it would seem I could then cast that spell as many times as I have spell slots left. It costs a feat, but seems way better than eclectic learning, or at least more versatile.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

If you're in the Forgotten Realms, get the feats Magical Training (PGtF, spellbook version) and Versatile Spellcaster (RotD). Magical Training gives you a spellbook which you've already scribed several spells into, and per Rules Compendium any character who uses a spellbook to prepare and cast spells can learn and add more spells to it just as a Wizard does. Keep in mind the spells in your spellbook can normally only be prepared and cast from the spell slots granted by Magical Training. Versatile Spellcaster allows you to spend two spontaneous spell slots of the same level to cast any spell you know of one level higher, which will allow you to cast spells you've learned and copied into your spellbook by spending two Warmage spell slots.

If you still want to use Aasimar with that, use the Lesser Aasimar from PGtF p191, which are Humanoids instead of Outsiders but nothing else changes. (The part it has about still being subject to spells that affect outsiders is irrelevant due to 3.5 changing all of those mechanics with the native subtype.) Combine this with the Half-Humans variant in Races of Destiny p150, which will make you a Humanoid (Human). You can now select a Human region, i.e. Halruaa or Nimbral, which allows you to take Magical Training as your 1st level regional feat.

[Gwendol]

Yeah, I was going for Lesser Aasimar in the first place, but the rules from RoD certainly makes things even easier. So, with those two feats (at first if I pick a flaw) and getting the spell domain spells at third, you think I have a solid foundation? I think we'll start play at third or fourth level.

[IronFist]

Don't you need dragonblood subtype for Versatile Spellcaster?

[Gemini476]

If you're in the Forgotten Realms, get the feats Magical Training (PGtF, spellbook version) and Versatile Spellcaster (RotD). Magical Training gives you a spellbook which you've already scribed several spells into, and per Rules Compendium any character who uses a spellbook to prepare and cast spells can learn and add more spells to it just as a Wizard does. Keep in mind the spells in your spellbook can normally only be prepared and cast from the spell slots granted by Magical Training. Versatile Spellcaster allows you to spend two spontaneous spell slots of the same level to cast any spell you know of one level higher, which will allow you to cast spells you've learned and copied into your spellbook by spending two Warmage spell slots.

If you still want to use Aasimar with that, use the Lesser Aasimar from PGtF p191, which are Humanoids instead of Outsiders but nothing else changes. (The part it has about still being subject to spells that affect outsiders is irrelevant due to 3.5 changing all of those mechanics with the native subtype.) Combine this with the Half-Humans variant in Races of Destiny p150, which will make you a Humanoid (Human). You can now select a Human region, i.e. Halruaa or Nimbral, which allows you to take Magical Training as your 1st level regional feat.

...So wait, a Rainbow Warsnake with Magical Training (and Versatile Spellcaster, but a Warmage should grab that anyways) would be able to spontaneously cast from the Warmage list, the entire Cleric list, and from the parts of the Wizard list he knows?
That's completely awesome.

[Gwendol]

Don't you need dragonblood subtype for Versatile Spellcaster?

Not that I know of. You need to be able to spontaneously cast spells (which actually make cleric and druids qualify too. Yes, they are that awesome).

I had missed the part of the player's choice of using a spellbook or not in relation to magical training. Thanks a lot for pointing it out. I had considered it anyway, but gaining a spellbook is a huge boon.

EDIT: Also, any comments on domain choice?

[Gemini476]

Not that I know of. You need to be able to spontaneously cast spells (which actually make cleric and druids qualify too. Yes, they are that awesome).

I had missed the part of the player's choice of using a spellbook or not in relation to magical training. Thanks a lot for pointing it out. I had considered it anyway, but gaining a spellbook is a huge boon.

Wizards with Spontaneous Divination qualify as all, iirc.

So what would be the best way to get a whole load of spells? Arcane Disciple/Sandshaper/Rainbow Servant/Magical Training?
I suppose you could throw Prestige Bard on there as well, if you can stomach the loss of CL in evocation.

[Gwendol]

I'm staying away from rainbow servant, it holds no appeal for me. Sandshaper is a definite possibility, especially if the game is set in Calimshan as I hope/think.

So, what shall it be for level three (I plan on taking the feat more than once to gain access to more domains)? The versatility of Spell domain, or more utalitarian like travel or trickery?

[Gwendol]

If you still want to use Aasimar with that, use the Lesser Aasimar from PGtF p191, which are Humanoids instead of Outsiders but nothing else changes. (The part it has about still being subject to spells that affect outsiders is irrelevant due to 3.5 changing all of those mechanics with the native subtype.) Combine this with the Half-Humans variant in Races of Destiny p150, which will make you a Humanoid (Human). You can now select a Human region, i.e. Halruaa or Nimbral, which allows you to take Magical Training as your 1st level regional feat.

Those rules seem to be very optional and subject to DM ruling. A safer route would be picking up the Human Heritage feat, which really leaves nothing to interpretation. Or skip the race and go Human...

[Kuulvheysoon]

RAW, Anyspell doesn't work that way. It says that you can prepare an arcane spell in your domain slot.

[IronFist]

Those rules seem to be very optional and subject to DM ruling. A safer route would be picking up the Human Heritage feat, which really leaves nothing to interpretation. Or skip the race and go Human...

Lesser races are explicitly a DM call, but no one in this forum seems to care.

[Gwendol]

RAW, Anyspell doesn't work that way. It says that you can prepare an arcane spell in your domain slot.

Yeah, well arcane disciple states the spells are now prepared as arcane spells, so no domain slots available. IOW up to the DM. RAW has no meaning here.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

You shouldn't be using Anyspell at all with that trick. Spells you gain via Arcane Disciple are only usable 1/day, and Anyspell uses a 3rd level spell slot to cast a 2nd level spell. Versatile Spellcaster allows you to spend two 1st level spell slots to cast that same 2nd level spell, as often as you have the spell slots to spend. Instead of using Anyspell, go with the Eclectic Learning ACF from PH2.

The Half-Humans variant is indeed optional, if your DM won't allow it then just go with a race that can get one of the regions for Magical Training.

[Gwendol]

But eclectic learning is just the one spell? Anyspell means just that; does it not increase versatility? Both give arcane spells a level lower.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

But eclectic learning is just the one spell? Anyspell means just that; does it not increase versatility? Both give arcane spells a level lower.

You don't need Anyspell, just Magical Training + Versatile Spellcaster makes it completely obsolete. If you have a 2nd level spell in mind that you would rather spend a 3rd level slot to cast instead of two 1st, gaining it via Eclectic Learning is better than using Anyspell to cast it because you're not limited to 1/day.

[Gwendol]

Ok, so what you're saying is it's better to spam a single spell than being able to have a choice of spells to cast 1/day?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Ok, so what you're saying is it's better to spam a single spell than being able to have a choice of spells to cast 1/day?

Magical Training + Versatile Spellcaster lets you cast any Wizard spell as many times/day as you have spell slots for. There's no reason to waste a feat to get Anyspell if you're going to use that.

[Gwendol]

Ah, now I get it! Thank you for showing me some patience. Ok, back to the drawing board then!:smallsmile:

With that finally sorted out, I can go back to the original question: what domain: travel, trickery, luck... air?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Ah, now I get it! Thank you for showing me some patience. Ok, back to the drawing board then!:smallsmile:

With that finally sorted out, I can go back to the original question: what domain: travel, trickery, luck... air?

You're still trying to waste a feat gaining a few spells usable 1/day, when you can Magical Training > put all of those domains' spells into your spellbook > cast all of them with Versatile Spellcaster as often as you have spell slots for.

[Gwendol]

Is that really how those feat work? I thought versatile spellcaster only worked on spells you know (and for a Warmage that means spells added to the warmage list). Spells in a spell-book are now spells I know?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Is that really how those feat work? I thought versatile spellcaster only worked on spells you know (and for a Warmage that means spells added to the warmage list). Spells in a spell-book are now spells I know?

The entire section on adding spells to your spellbook refers to 'learning' the spells beforehand, thus making the Spellcraft check when you study it to 'learn' it adds it to your known spells. Normally someone with a spellbook can't prepare those spells if they don't have their spellbook on hand, but they're spells they've learned and now know regardless.

Versatile Spellcaster allows you to cast any spell you know when using it. A shrewd DM may make you have the spellbook open to the spell in question and read it as you cast it, limiting its usefulness in combat, but it's still a spectacular trick for near-limitless versatility.

[Gwendol]

Ok, as long as the spellcraft check is made I agree the character should successfully be able to enter into the spellbook. I'll run it by the DM and see what comes out of it.

[Spuddles]

I believe a cornerstone of the versatile training trick involves a Rules Compendium rule on how spellbooks work. Spellcraft checks to add new spells and spells contained in spellbooks was a wizard only thing, and prior to the RC ruling, the versatile training trick required a dip in wizard to gain that ability.

The trickery and travel domains are my favorite, for arcane disciple. A winning spell at every level? Yes please!

You could try and see if arcane disciple would let you get a planar domain from the SpC- two spells of every level.

A DR mag has the cerebrosis feat, which can be acquired via a ritual, 1500gp, and a knowledge check or two. It costs you 1 con point and in exchange you gain about 12 spells known. Pretty decent spells. The summoning options are good if you have a high will save, and the save vs lose and save vs death spells are solid vs. humanoid opponents.

[Gwendol]

Do you have a reference to the RC on the subject? I'm quite sure I will get the question.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Do you have a reference to the RC on the subject? I'm quite sure I will get the question.

Rules Compendium page 160 is where you can find everything.

[Gwendol]

So reading this, I have to wonder how you get by the requirement on the spell to be copied to be on the copiers class spell list? Or is the warmage supposed to subcontract the writing of spells to a wizard, then deciphering the writing? The problem, as I see it is how the warmage then adds the spell to his list of known spells (it doesn't say).

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

So reading this, I have to wonder how you get by the requirement on the spell to be copied to be on the copiers class spell list? Or is the warmage supposed to subcontract the writing of spells to a wizard, then deciphering the writing? The problem, as I see it is how the warmage then adds the spell to his list of known spells (it doesn't say).

Magical Training gives you spell slots that use the Wizard class spell list. You can therefore copy Wizard spells into your spellbook, you just won't have any slots to prepare them in. You still learn the spells prior to putting them in your spellbook, so they're spells your character knows and can cast using Warmage slots to activate Versatile Spellcaster.

[Gwendol]

Ok, that makes sense. The problem I have though is with this statement that I still don't see how you get past:

The spell to be copied must be on the copier’s class
spell list.

AFAIK, while you are treated as Wiz 1 for purpose of determining spell effects, you don't have access to the wizard spell list (except for the cantrips).

I have to say that the limitation seems odd, since you can clearly decipher any magical text provided you meet the skill check.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Ok, that makes sense. The problem I have though is with this statement that I still don't see how you get past:


AFAIK, while you are treated as Wiz 1 for purpose of determining spell effects, you don't have access to the wizard spell list (except for the cantrips).

I have to say that the limitation seems odd, since you can clearly decipher any magical text provided you meet the skill check.

It doesn't matter what level spell slots you have, a Wizard 1 can learn and copy any spell he makes the Spellcraft check for right up to 9th, and Magical Training is no different.

[Gwendol]

Ok, I'm not entirely convinced of the logical train here, as I think there is a leap of faith to made somewhere when going from casting cantrips as a wizard does to learning and copying wizard spells not on your class list.

In terms of my own preference I think what you say is how it should work, or else the wording on spellcraft checks to decipher and understand magical writing becomes rather meaningless.

[Gwendol]

Ok, so fleshing out a build then:

Human Warmage/Sandshaper (Halruua)

Warmage 1: Able learner, Magical training (Human), Versatile spellcaster (Flaw)
Warmage 2
Warmage 3: Touchstone (City of the Dead), Advanced learning
Warmage 4
Warmage 5
Sandshaper 1: Reserve feat: ?(Stormbolt)

After that continue with sandshaper as long as the campaign lasts.