View Full Version : Warhammer 40k - Problem with weapon training
I've recently started playing Dark Heresy and have also been eying with interest the Rogue Trader rules. I really like the universe and the game systems seem decent. I love the variety of weapons in a relatively simple system, but this is also the source of my biggest problem with the system:
Every single weapon type needs separate training. Now for melee weapons I'm generally okay with this because I can imagine there are a lot of ways to wield them, and each one will lend itself to a different fighting style. What I have a problem with are the guns, because I imagine they all operate off the same principle: point towards someone/thing you do not like, pull trigger. Difference in size and recoil are understandable, but that is covered by the need for training in pistol, basic and heavy class separately, and this works for me. What doesn't is my need to relearn how to fire a gun when the ammunition and shape changes. Let's look at the three I can accept as being in different categories:
Solid Projectile
Las (i.e. energy projectile)
Flamer (i.e. spread weapon)
These three I can see classifying separately for the purpose of using, as solid and energy projectiles would have a different trajectory to energy ones (and flamers are completely different). However with those two the different types of trajectory patterns have pretty much run dry, barring a large amount of intoxicating drugs being consumed in the planning stage. So what do we have left:
Melta
Plasma
These two things are almost identical. They both can be summarized at "fires superheated gas". Yes they have their mechanical differences, but nothing that would warrant me having to relearn how to point and fire. And how do they differ significantly from las weapons, the default energy projectile guns?
Bolter
Its a solid projectile weapon. Yes the round are big, self propelled and explode, but how does that change the point and click format? Now it says bolters require a lot of care. Fair enough, but that means I can still take the bolter off an enemy/out of an armory and use it, at least for a short while. And if I am a Rogue Trader, can't I get someone to look after my bolter for me? I'm pretty sure that's within my resources.
And then we have the exotic weapon of the various xenos. Some of these probably justified in their required extra training, but most aren't, like the eldar and dark eldar crystal and splinter weapons. They are certainly exotic, but I fail to see how such weird ammunition fired by gravity tethers or magnetic pulses would require any new training (at least the kind that costs XP).
So what do you think? Do I have a point, or has my lack of knowledge of real life guns caused me to oversimplify how much training it would take to wield such a diverse set of weapons?
And if I am right, do you think it could be fixed? Or would the only other option be to grants characters training with plasma pistols out of the box?
And in case anyone is wondering, yes I am aware Warhammer 40k at the very least started out as a parody, but this problem seems to stick out to me from the ones which I feel are there because of the setting's nature.
Yeah, you are oversimplifying things a bit.
Particularly for the exotic weapons - did you know that Eldar guns don't actually have proper trigger mechanisms? They fire based on a low-level psychic command. Learning how to do that is a bit more complex than just point and shoot.
Even the other guns have substantial differences. Bolters have enough recoil to easily break your arm if you haven't learned how to absorb it properly, and accuracy with what is essentially a rocket-propelled grenade is a whole different ball game to regular bullets. Same applies to other weapons, they have different sorts of recoil and the projectiles will behave very differently - not to mention the other concerns, like learning how to minimise the risk of a plasma gun overheating and blowing your arm off.
Besides, it's not like training is really all that expensive in the grand scheme of things. There's a talent, Arms Master I think, to represent generalised weapons proficiency if you really want it.
Yeah, you are oversimplifying things a bit.
Particularly for the exotic weapons - did you know that Eldar guns don't actually have proper trigger mechanisms? They fire based on a low-level psychic command. Learning how to do that is a bit more complex than just point and shoot.
Where does it say that in the rules?
Even the other guns have substantial differences. Bolters have enough recoil to easily break your arm if you haven't learned how to absorb it properly, and accuracy with what is essentially a rocket-propelled grenade is a whole different ball game to regular bullets. Same applies to other weapons, they have different sorts of recoil and the projectiles will behave very differently - not to mention the other concerns, like learning how to minimise the risk of a plasma gun overheating and blowing your arm off.
Non of those explanation hold up though. In order:
Bolter recoil: Recoil is handled by weapon class (heavy, basic and pistil), not type. With a recoil glove I can wield a bolter in a single hand. Besides a hand cannon has more recoil than a bolt pistol, and the hand cannon is a solid projectile.
Plasma over heating: Except not having training does nothing to increase overheating (unless I missed something). Besides purified plasma ammunition removes the chance of overheating. And that still leaves the problem of meltas, which do not overheat.
And "projectile paths behaving differently"? How many projectile paths can you have?
Besides, it's not like training is really all that expensive in the grand scheme of things. There's a talent, Arms Master I think, to represent generalised weapons proficiency if you really want it.
They can be. The actual XP cost usually isn't too heavy, but sometimes you have to be of a pretty high rank to get it (less of a problem in RT though). And arms master only halves the penalty, it doesn't remove it.
Eldan
2013-09-25, 08:21 AM
Where does it say that in the rules?
In the eldar codex, certainly. Probably in Xenology. No idea about the actual RPG books.
In the eldar codex, certainly. Probably in Xenology. No idea about the actual RPG books.
Fair enough, but if its not reprinted in the games rule book then presumably is doesn't apply to the game. Because by the rules I'm pretty sure I can pick up a shuriken catapult and fire it, just at a penalty, which makes little sense if it has no trigger.
Grim Portent
2013-09-25, 12:36 PM
Part of it will be that most of the weapons have a different projectile trajectory.
Las: Straight beam, no need to lead targets or adjust for wind.
SP: Fast moving with a gradual decay in height caused by gravity, moving targets must be adjusted for as must wind.
Bolt: Similar to SP but with a different speed and the basic versions lack a stock making them very different to carry and fire compared to most rifles.
Melta: A conical burst of energy that is more deadly the closer and more centered the target is. Shouldn't be much harder to use than las weapons really.
Plasma: A slow (relatively) projectile with a curving trajectory. Plasma weapons would need quite a large adjustment to the angle they're fired at compared to most weapons.
That's just my thoughts on why they need different training. The basis behind it is various bits off fluff and some of the computer games.
shadow_archmagi
2013-09-25, 02:28 PM
I don't think plasma ACTUALLY moves slower than most weapons, but you would have to get used to dealing with the fact that you can blind yourself with your own muzzle flare.
A liquid (well, I guess technically plasma is its own state of matter, so I don't even know) projectile also probably moves significantly differently. Plus maintenance and operation of a plasma gun is almost certainly way different- There's probably all kinds of dials and gauges you gotta keep track of so it doesn't overheat.
That said, it's a game abstraction. Rogue Trader largely does away with it, only requiring special training for flame weapons.
The Glyphstone
2013-09-25, 02:30 PM
Fair enough, but if its not reprinted in the games rule book then presumably is doesn't apply to the game. Because by the rules I'm pretty sure I can pick up a shuriken catapult and fire it, just at a penalty, which makes little sense if it has no trigger.
It's fluff that applies to the whole setting, that doesn't make it invalid just because it's not reprinted in the book - that's kind of like saying Space Marines don't exist unless you're playing Deathwatch. If you need in-setting justification, training is the difference between holding the shuriken catapult and thinking 'SHOOT" really loudly at it until it starts spraying shuriken, and knowing how to think the proper subliminal command to make it fire exactly when your barrel is on-target, instead of a split second too early or late.
It's fluff that applies to the whole setting, that doesn't make it invalid just because it's not reprinted in the book - that's kind of like saying Space Marines don't exist unless you're playing Deathwatch.
1. No it isn't because Space Marines are mentioned in DH and RT, even if they are not a playable race.
2. Think about what you are saying. I have read the rule books, yet by your logic there could be hundreds of rules I do not know because I am unfamiliar with the table top game and the various factions codex. I'm pretty sure that's not the design philosophy behind the games.
3. The fluff is contradicted by the rules. I can pick up a shuriken catapult and fire it easily, I just take a penalty to my BS, same as any other weapon I lack training in. There is no differences in penalty for a lack of training between a shuriken catapult and an autogun. If that had been the case they would have included in the description that non-eldar cannot fire the gun (or maybe non-eldar without a psi-rating), but they didn't.
If you need in-setting justification, training is the difference between holding the shuriken catapult and thinking 'SHOOT" really loudly at it until it starts spraying shuriken, and knowing how to think the proper subliminal command to make it fire exactly when your barrel is on-target, instead of a split second too early or late.
See above, fluff isn't supported by the rules. Actually that may work, but I'm uncomfortable using an explanation like that when nothing of the nature is covered in the rules.
Part of it will be that most of the weapons have a different projectile trajectory.
Las: Straight beam, no need to lead targets or adjust for wind.
SP: Fast moving with a gradual decay in height caused by gravity, moving targets must be adjusted for as must wind.
Bolt: Similar to SP but with a different speed and the basic versions lack a stock making them very different to carry and fire compared to most rifles.
Melta: A conical burst of energy that is more deadly the closer and more centered the target is. Shouldn't be much harder to use than las weapons really.
Plasma: A slow (relatively) projectile with a curving trajectory. Plasma weapons would need quite a large adjustment to the angle they're fired at compared to most weapons.
That's just my thoughts on why they need different training. The basis behind it is various bits off fluff and some of the computer games.
Those are some pretty good explanations, but I have a problem with the plasma gun being curved in trajectory. Isn't not mentioned in the rules (AFAIK), why would it be built that way, ad if it curves in any significant manner, shouldn't there be a mechanic for being able to shoot someone around the corner?
Grim Portent
2013-09-26, 04:59 AM
I don't think plasma ACTUALLY moves slower than most weapons, but you would have to get used to dealing with the fact that you can blind yourself with your own muzzle flare.
From what I can recall of plasma in the books it's speed is argely ignored save in one of the Ciaphas Cain novels. I'm quite certain that a plasma cannon blast is described as being comparatively slow compared to heavy bolter shells.
The muzzle flare would be a problem come to think of it. That part never occurred to me before, with las weapons it's all directed away and there shouldn't be much of a flare if any, but plasma is a searing ball of agitated matter, light radiates from it as it reacts with the air, it should be like removing a blindfold from someone while pointing their face at the sun.
A liquid (well, I guess technically plasma is its own state of matter
Plasma is a state of matter that is a higher energy state (I think that's the right terminology, it's been a while since I did a pure chemistry class) than gas, it's essentially any substance that has been heated/electrified/had enough energy imparted to turn it into to gas which has then had more energy added in. This could be by heating it, electric currents or any other method that increases it's energy. This makes it highly reactive as it tries to lose the energy through reactions that expel energy, so it breaks the bonds of existing matter, forms news bonds and generally does nasty stuff. It's also high enough temperature (usually) that it sets most stuff on fire.
No idea how much of that is really accurate, I never did get into the deep chemistry stuff, so to an actual chemist, and possibly a physicist that explanation is probably nonsense. But what the hell, I'm a biology student so I think I can get away with patchy knowledge of matter states.
From what I recall the plasma the Imperials use in 40k is Hydrogen in a plasma state. So I think that should put it on the low end of the temperature scales that plasma can be, although it should also be highly reactive.
Sometimes I forget how long winded I can get.
Fair enough, but if its not reprinted in the games rule book then presumably is doesn't apply to the game. Because by the rules I'm pretty sure I can pick up a shuriken catapult and fire it, just at a penalty, which makes little sense if it has no trigger.
What applies and what doesn't ultimately come down to what your Games Master decides is how things work. That the books make no mention of it being so means little if the GM has read other sources and decides that is how things will be.
Grim Portent
2013-09-26, 05:18 AM
Those are some pretty good explanations, but I have a problem with the plasma gun being curved in trajectory. Isn't not mentioned in the rules (AFAIK), why would it be built that way, ad if it curves in any significant manner, shouldn't there be a mechanic for being able to shoot someone around the corner?
Plasma trajectory curves down not sideways. It's more like a boulder from a catapult that falls as it moves, just not as severe. The explanation behind it is given in places outside the RPGs, presumably because it doesn't matter in the RPGs.
Essentially a plasma bolt is contained in a magnetic field, which is how it doesn't fry the gun, that decays as it flies leaking the energy of the bolt making it smaller and slower as it moves which also makes it start to fall to earth.
It's an unavoidable side effect of the guns technology that the Imperium can't change because a) they don't know how and b) modifying tech like that would be heresy.
The penalty to BS from not being trained in plasma weapons would represent not knowing how to adjust your aim to use them based on distance.
It's a crude abstraction but there does need to be one, a random civvy wouldn't know how to fire anything much other than las, SP and bolt weapons.
Short range with plasma is basically point and shoot, pistols tend not to be used out of this range, medium range it needs to be angled higher than a SP gun of the same sort of size, long range it's more like an artillery style weapon, they could have put in the ability to shoot over short cover with plasma cannons like they did in Space Marine where a plasma cannon served primarily as a short range weapon or a piece of horribly strong long range bombardment fire support, but it would have complicated how the game works and not really been an important change.
I need to stop writing big blocks of text.
What applies and what doesn't ultimately come down to what your Games Master decides is how things work.
Yes, so they can also decide that the universe of warhammer 40k is computer program run by hyper intelligent mice.
Plasma trajectory curves down not sideways.
But that should still have mechanical effect like being able to bypass cover. In fact I'm pretty sure the Tau have such a weapon, and noted in its description is that it ignores all cover that doesn't extend overhead.
Grim Portent
2013-09-26, 05:58 AM
But that should still have mechanical effect like being able to bypass cover. In fact I'm pretty sure the Tau have such a weapon, and noted in its description is that it ignores all cover that doesn't extend overhead.
Did mention that towards the end of my post. I think it wasn't put in because when the first RPG was made plasma weapons had largely only appeared in the fluff and tabletop so justifying any unusual rules to do with the larger plasma weapons would have been difficult without poring through novels to find the ones where the plasma is described as arcing downwards, which are rare since plasma is sidelined a lot.
Basically plasma doesn't arc in the RPGs because nothing in core DH had unique abilities like ignoring cover and they've never changed it when making new plasma weapons and new rules.
Personally I think plasma cannons could justifiably fire over short cover effectively at long range but the pistols and basic plasma guns would lose too much energy while arcing over to do much.
shadow_archmagi
2013-09-26, 06:54 AM
But that should still have mechanical effect like being able to bypass cover. In fact I'm pretty sure the Tau have such a weapon, and noted in its description is that it ignores all cover that doesn't extend overhead.
As someone who just picked up Tau in the tabletop, nope. Tau ignore cover all the time forever anyway, but that's because of markerlight shenanigans rather than because their weapons explicitly ignore cover.
Tau plasma is actually much more reliable and longer ranged- less field decay.
As someone who just picked up Tau in the tabletop, nope.
I'm talking about Death Watch.
Brother Oni
2013-09-26, 09:50 AM
But that should still have mechanical effect like being able to bypass cover.
An arrow's trajectory is curved at distances above ~20ft. Would you argue that they bypass cover?
Separate question - I'm not familiar with the game system but why do bolters have recoil? Since they use gyrojet ammunition, shouldn't they have the advantage of minimal weapon recoil compared to a stubber or autogun?
Grim Portent
2013-09-26, 11:00 AM
Separate question - I'm not familiar with the game system but why do bolters have recoil? Since they use gyrojet ammunition, shouldn't they have the advantage of minimal weapon recoil compared to a stubber or autogun?
They use gunpowder (sort of) or air pressure to get the bolt out of the barrel then the jet activates. It's to stop the barrel from being damaged by the pressure from the bolts exhaust. The sheer size of bolt shells might be responsible for the recoil, it'd take a decent bit of energy to get them out of the barrel fast enough to avoid them dropping down before the jet activates.
Squark
2013-09-26, 02:36 PM
Yeah, as I understand it, it was already stated that Bolters had a serious recoil issue, so fans concluded that bolt weapons must also have a chemical propellent or something similar to cause that (also, firing rockets at short range wouldn't actually be terribly effective), and I think that eventually sifted into the actual fluff.
Brother Oni
2013-09-26, 05:26 PM
I can see bolt shells using a two stage ignition process, but I'd think that it's for enabling bolt rounds to achieve penetration at close range as Squark mentions, plus to stop the jet exhaust residue from clogging up the rifling/barrel when stage 2 ignites.
With a fully automatic weapon like a bolter, that barrel is going to get fouled up in fairly short order.
From footage of real gyrojet ammunition, while it typically achieves maximum velocity after about 18m, accuracy doesn't seem to be a concern so I think round drop after leaving the barrel is non-existent issue.
Destro_Yersul
2013-09-27, 02:51 AM
Yes, so they can also decide that the universe of warhammer 40k is computer program run by hyper intelligent mice.
While true, that would be silly, and unsupported by wider fluff. The RPGs do not exist in a vacuum - they are part of many years of novels, tabletop books, and various magazine articles and short stories, some of which contradicts itself or other bits of fluff. The Imperium is a large and varied place, and enough of the books is given over to explaining fluff already that when it comes to mechanics they didn't really need to say 'and this is why you need seperate talents for X, Y and Z.' It's an abstraction, and you're overthinking it.
Also, a couple other points: Using a ranged weapon untrained, in DH at least, nto sure about the other ranges, makes it count as unreliable, increasing its chances of jamming (and thus overheating, if it's a plasma weapon). Training in a weapon includes enough general knowledge of its workings to know how to not bugger it up, and how to fix it when it does, since unjamming guns is a BS test.
While true, that would be silly, and unsupported by wider fluff. The RPGs do not exist in a vacuum - they are part of many years of novels, tabletop books, and various magazine articles and short stories, some of which contradicts itself or other bits of fluff.
Which is great, but will also mean almost absolutely nothing to me when I GM a game.
The Imperium is a large and varied place, and enough of the books is given over to explaining fluff already that when it comes to mechanics they didn't really need to say 'and this is why you need seperate talents for X, Y and Z.' It's an abstraction, and you're overthinking it.
Only this seems to jar with the general level of explanation you get (with is generally a lot more). And they do take care to customize weapons. I'm not sure I buy "there was no need". I mean how long has the plasma weapon justification been? "Plasma weapons arc and are more likely to overheat without the proper training"?
Also, a couple other points: Using a ranged weapon untrained, in DH at least, nto sure about the other ranges, makes it count as unreliable, increasing its chances of jamming (and thus overheating, if it's a plasma weapon). Training in a weapon includes enough general knowledge of its workings to know how to not bugger it up, and how to fix it when it does, since unjamming guns is a BS test.
Okay, that does help. I think melta weapons are the only real problem now.
Grim Portent
2013-09-27, 05:33 AM
Okay, that does help. I think melta weapons are the only real problem now.
Don't know if it'll justify melta training or not but Ciaphas Cain has to use his assisstants meltagun once and can barely aim it due to not being used to the weight of the gun.
Don't know if it'll justify melta training or not but Ciaphas Cain has to use his assisstants meltagun once and can barely aim it due to not being used to the weight of the gun.
Nope, not by the rules. An infernal pistol is 2.5kg, with is more than a laz or stub, but equal to autopistol.
The Glyphstone
2013-09-27, 09:17 AM
Not all weapons have their weight distributed the same, though. An autopistol will probably have a good portion of its mass in the magazine. A laspistol's mass is probably mostly invested in whatever creates the laser beam, with very lightweight magazines (and thus lightweight grip) relative to autopistols. An inferno pistol is going to be different too, possibly with a much bulkier barrel assembly to withstand and channel the molten plasma, and its fuel cell/magazine probably clips on to the side of the gun in a completely different place than any normal pistol. Repeat all of these problems, scaled up in weight, for autoguns/lasguns/meltaguns - the whole package might be equivalent mass, but the distribution for each will be very different, and trying to treat one as the other will throw off your aim.
Does that (completely made up out of the blue) explanation help your suspension of disbelief towards the abstraction?
Funny how this isn't a problem (for most players) in rogue trader... (pistol training(universal) ftw :smallcool:)
Studoku
2013-09-27, 10:10 AM
Which is great, but will also mean almost absolutely nothing to me when I GM a game.
In which case you can rule all types of ranged weapon require the same training. What's the problem?
Not all weapons have their weight distributed the same, though. An autopistol will probably have a good portion of its mass in the magazine. A laspistol's mass is probably mostly invested in whatever creates the laser beam, with very lightweight magazines (and thus lightweight grip) relative to autopistols. An inferno pistol is going to be different too, possibly with a much bulkier barrel assembly to withstand and channel the molten plasma, and its fuel cell/magazine probably clips on to the side of the gun in a completely different place than any normal pistol. Repeat all of these problems, scaled up in weight, for autoguns/lasguns/meltaguns - the whole package might be equivalent mass, but the distribution for each will be very different, and trying to treat one as the other will throw off your aim.
Does that (completely made up out of the blue) explanation help your suspension of disbelief towards the abstraction?
Not terrible. I mean just compare "arcing trajectory and higher danger of overheating" vs. "its weighs funny". Maybe I'll warm to it.
Funny how this isn't a problem (for most players) in rogue trader... (pistol training(universal) ftw :smallcool:)
You still have the problem with basic weapons though. I guess I can accept that once you need to brace a weapon to fire it properly the exact model starts to matter a lot more, but in rogue trader you still have the problem of a melta gun confusing someone perfectly capable of firing a las gun.
In which case you can rule all types of ranged weapon require the same training. What's the problem?
That was one of my questions in the OP. Would such a rule greatly disrupt the system?
Felhammer
2013-09-27, 12:43 PM
That was one of my questions in the OP. Would such a rule greatly disrupt the system?
Probably not. It allows PCs to use better weapons more easily. As a GM, you just need to be prepared for that.
Destro_Yersul
2013-09-27, 02:03 PM
Which is great, but will also mean almost absolutely nothing to me when I GM a game.
Feel free to ignore it for your game, then. Doesn't mean it doesn't exist and won't influence other people when they run theirs.
That was one of my questions in the OP. Would such a rule greatly disrupt the system?
Depends on the system. In Dark Heresy it might, since Dark Heresy is intended to operate at a lower power level, where the players are basically mooks to begin with. Weapon progression is a concern, mechanically, though there are ways to circumvent it.
shadow_archmagi
2013-09-27, 02:20 PM
You still have the problem with basic weapons though. I guess I can accept that once you need to brace a weapon to fire it properly the exact model starts to matter a lot more, but in rogue trader you still have the problem of a melta gun confusing someone perfectly capable of firing a las gun.
If I remember right, the (universal) talent covers everything except for Flame, or Exotic.
You still have the problem with basic weapons though. I guess I can accept that once you need to brace a weapon to fire it properly the exact model starts to matter a lot more, but in rogue trader you still have the problem of a melta gun confusing someone perfectly capable of firing a las gun.
If I remember right, the (universal) talent covers everything except for Flame, or Exotic.
There are several "universal" weapon proficiencies melee, thrown, flamer, pistol and basic. The only things that get excluded are iirc heavy, exotic and primitive weapons, which I in most cases find quite sensible (note that Heavy and exotic weapons must be trained on a weapon by weapon basis, while iirc primitive are learned by weapon group (for instance basic weapon training (primitive))
Making Heavy and exotic weapons be trained on a weapon by weapon basis is imo quite sensible (not only are there wast differences between them, but they are also often the most powerfull weapons available).
Note that the dark heresy style of weapon proficiencies can (kinda) still be used (I have seen it be used in some npc stat blocks for instance)
Feel free to ignore it for your game, then. Doesn't mean it doesn't exist and won't influence other people when they run theirs.
I wasn't disputing that, I was simply pointing out that its silly to insist "its still part of the game" automatically when it isn't printed in the rule books.
I don't really understand what you want to hear from me on this. Yes, other GMs are free to use material from the codex and novels. I wasn't aware they needed my approval/permission.
Depends on the system. In Dark Heresy it might, since Dark Heresy is intended to operate at a lower power level, where the players are basically mooks to begin with. Weapon progression is a concern, mechanically, though there are ways to circumvent it.
Haven't put too much thought into it, but noble may become a problem with their much higher income. Guess it depends on how much downtime they have.
If I remember right, the (universal) talent covers everything except for Flame, or Exotic.
Yes, but only arch militants can start with universal training in basic weapons, then again the clue is in the name.
Destro_Yersul
2013-09-27, 03:32 PM
I wasn't disputing that, I was simply pointing out that its silly to insist "its still part of the game" automatically when it isn't printed in the rule books.
I don't really understand what you want to hear from me on this. Yes, other GMs are free to use material from the codex and novels. I wasn't aware they needed my approval/permission.
My point was that it's silly to insist it can't be made part of the game simply because it isn't in the rulebooks. Sorry if you didn't say that, but that's the way you were coming across.
Haven't put too much thought into it, but noble may become a problem with their much higher income. Guess it depends on how much downtime they have.
Nobles are an issue, yeah. Their main drawback is left mechanically vague, and is up to the GM to determine. More than any other homeworld, Nobles need GM oversight to not be horribly broken.
My point was that it's silly to insist it can't be made part of the game simply because it isn't in the rulebooks. Sorry if you didn't say that, but that's the way you were coming across.
I think I just reacted badly to The Glyphstone's post on it. I didn't like him comparing my dismissal of some relatively minor trivia to the dismissal of the poster boys of the Warhammer40k Universe, and found the statement "that doesn't make it invalid just because it's not reprinted in the book" to be mildly elitist, implying that people who got into the game through the RPGs were not doing things "properly" because they didn't know the "established fluff".
I'm sure now he didn't mean that, but my perception of it set a bad start to my reception of the topic.
Destro_Yersul
2013-09-27, 05:06 PM
Fair enough. Established fluff is all well and good, but everyone has to start somewhere and I can hardly expect anyone to know it all from the get go. I certainly didn't. Still don't, at that. There's a lot of it.
Selrahc
2013-09-28, 12:20 PM
I think I just reacted badly to The Glyphstone's post on it. I didn't like him comparing my dismissal of some relatively minor trivia to the dismissal of the poster boys of the Warhammer40k Universe, and found the statement "that doesn't make it invalid just because it's not reprinted in the book" to be mildly elitist, implying that people who got into the game through the RPGs were not doing things "properly" because they didn't know the "established fluff".
I'm sure now he didn't mean that, but my perception of it set a bad start to my reception of the topic.
If you don't know every bit of trivia you'll make lore mistakes. This doesn't matter, but it doesn't mean that you didn't make a mistake. If you say a shrunken pistol has a trigger in your game, that is fine, but incorrect. It makes your game run better, and you'll make similar minor lore flubs all the time even about stuff you have learned. This is just how games work.
Saying that because you haven't read it, it doesn't apply isn't a terribly compelling argument though.
shadow_archmagi
2013-09-28, 01:58 PM
If you don't know every bit of trivia you'll make lore mistakes. This doesn't matter, but it doesn't mean that you didn't make a mistake. If you say a shrunken pistol has a trigger in your game, that is fine, but incorrect. It makes your game run better, and you'll make similar minor lore flubs all the time even about stuff you have learned. This is just how games work.
Saying that because you haven't read it, it doesn't apply isn't a terribly compelling argument though.
Wow rude.
I thought the 40k motto was "The universe is big enough that any lore inconsistencies are actually just regional differences?"
Maybe some craftworlds include triggers in their design.
Selrahc
2013-09-28, 02:13 PM
Wow rude.
Really? I'm basically just saying that it doesn't matter at all if you make a mistake, and that you should expect to make many mistakes in a game with as much minutely detailed lore as 40k, none of which will really matter to having a fun game.
Really? I'm basically just saying that it doesn't matter at all if you make a mistake, and that you should expect to make many mistakes in a game with as much minutely detailed lore as 40k, none of which will really matter to having a fun game.
This is the elitism I'm talking about, this insistance that because I have not read every book under the sun relating to the 40k universe, I'm making a "mistake" in my application of the RPG rules.
I have read the rules for the RPG. Unless I have actually missed something, it is rude to imply that I am doing something wrong (as athe word mistake does) by not following some relativly minor trivia that the game writers chose not to add to the game. And you cannot even argue that they simply did not have space, since the Dark Eldar got their own source book, and I'm pretty sure it wasn't mentioned there.
Selrahc
2013-09-29, 03:19 AM
This is the elitism I'm talking about, this insistance that because I have not read every book under the sun relating to the 40k universe, I'm making a "mistake" in my application of the RPG rules.
I have read the rules for the RPG. Unless I have actually missed something, it is rude to imply that I am doing something wrong (as athe word mistake does) by not following some relativly minor trivia that the game writers chose not to add to the game. And you cannot even argue that they simply did not have space, since the Dark Eldar got their own source book, and I'm pretty sure it wasn't mentioned there.
You are doing something wrong, assuming you're playing in 40k. How is it elitism? You will deviate from canon, but it doesn't really matter. If you don't care about deviating from the setting then it isn't really a mistake, but it is still something that deviates from the established setting, no matter how unaware you were of that.
But even if you are trying to be true to the setting(in which case it *is* a mistake), it is of a scale that will happen all the time, even if you're pretty encyclopedic in your knowledge of 40k.
shadow_archmagi
2013-09-30, 08:11 AM
You are doing something wrong, assuming you're playing in 40k. How is it elitism? You will deviate from canon, but it doesn't really matter. If you don't care about deviating from the setting then it isn't really a mistake, but it is still something that deviates from the established setting, no matter how unaware you were of that.
But even if you are trying to be true to the setting(in which case it *is* a mistake), it is of a scale that will happen all the time, even if you're pretty encyclopedic in your knowledge of 40k.
Canon is malleable, and designed to be so. Published materials are generalities, amongst which there are variations. Now, it would be a mistake to say that Commissar Yarrick has a sword-arm instead of a claw-arm. But it'd be perfectly fine to say that there are some commissars who motivate their men via actual bonds of trust, loyalty, and the kinship of shared battle rather than purely through terror. (in fact, even to say that all the commissars in this sector operate this way!)
Likewise, if there's no canon saying that these Eldar specifically use triggerless weapons, it's fine to say that these Eldar have triggers on their guns for whatever reason. (Maybe they fight a lot of Daemons, so they don't use wraithbone guns, because making your gun out of material specifically designed to let souls in is very dangerous. Maybe they think that psychic triggers are too risky, because their untrained psykers might accidentally give away their position in the heat of battle. Who knows!)
Squark
2013-10-01, 12:32 PM
Yes, but only arch militants can start with universal training in basic weapons, then again the clue is in the name.
Uh... The Explorator, Missionary, and Seneschal all start with it too, presumably because they start with a basic weapon. The only class that isn't proficient with all their starting gear is the missionary, probably under the presumption that flame weapons can be effective even if you don't have the talent.
Uh... The Explorator, Missionary, and Seneschal all start with it too, presumably because they start with a basic weapon. The only class that isn't proficient with all their starting gear is the missionary, probably under the presumption that flame weapons can be effective even if you don't have the talent.
Oh FFS why do the writers keep listings talents and skill as purchasable for a career option when they have already given it to them as a starting talent or skill? I guess I should have double checked, but I saw "Basic weapon training (universal)" as an arch militant advance for 500XP and figured it would be a safe bet other options didn't get it so early.
Squark
2013-10-01, 06:02 PM
It's in case alternate starting packages were to be introduced; The alternate packages would still have access to those talents at the same rank, they just wouldn't get them free the way the normal package does.
Well that seems silly. Kinda makes a good case for why you should not include a confusing format for something that may or may not be added in a later book. Would it make more sense to include in alternate starting packages the cost at purchasing the replaced talents and skills under the alternate starting package? Or at the very least couldn't they have italicized such options if its going to stay under the original career path?
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