Am I Missing Something (Belkar's Death)? [Archive]

Nordom

2013-09-25, 09:33 AM

It's not my intention here to start a big speculation thread or even necessarily argue against the prevailing wisdom but:

1. Belkar death has been foretold in prophecy.

2. Setting aside the bazillion "technically died" ways around the prophecy that would exist in a normal story, OotS is a comic wherin the main character was dead for an entire book without ceasing to be the main character.

3. Just judging by offhand comments and such (I wasn't around to see the discussion develop back when the prophecy would have been a hot topic) it seems like the prevailing wisdom is that Belkar is capital D Doomed while some counter contingent thinks that maybe he'll never die at all.

My default assumption on reading the prophecy was always that Belkar would die but there would be some confluence of circumstances justifying somebody raising him from the dead. I'm not saying this is definitely what will happen, but the fact that no one else seems to see it as the most probably outcome suggests there's some nuance or detail to this whole thing that I'm missing. Anyone care to fill me in?

Morty

2013-09-25, 09:36 AM

The clinch is that the Oracle said 'not long for this world' and 'last breath - ever'. It means that Belkar will be removed from the mortal world and will never take another breath again. It significantly narrows down the possibilities of Belkar remaining active after death.

hamishspence

2013-09-25, 09:37 AM

The phrasing draw his last breath - ever - before the end of the year (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0572.html)

was one of the main reasons some people thought no-one would raise him.

EDIT: Ninjaed, swordsaged, or whatever the current term is these days :smallamused:

Cerussite

2013-09-25, 09:58 AM

My bet is on Vampire!Belkar.

Dwy

2013-09-25, 10:28 AM

I'm betting: Staying dead, becoming a PoV from hell. Possibly redeeming himself AFTER his death trying to get into whatever Chaotic Manipulative Neutral Cat-afterlife he'd have the highest chance of reuniting with Mr. Scruffy in.

Nordom

2013-09-25, 10:31 AM

Skarn

2013-09-25, 10:59 AM

Well, there's plenty of ways to loophole out of it. The simplest being if the Oracle was just lying to spite him or in an attempt to sabotage his character development.

Even if you take what the Oracle said to be true, the only thing that should be guaranteed to be true is the "official" statement(the "last breath ever" one). It's possible given the Oracle's abilities, that that's all he/she actually knows and misinterpreted that statement to mean something it doesn't.

Of course, it doesn't help that the Oracle kept beating around the bush. They never directly said Belkar was going to die, just used a lot of phrases that normally mean that. So people looking for an excuse to believe that he might not die will notice that lack of a firm statement.

Personally, I dunno. If he dies, it'd have to be in a way that he can't just get resurrected. It'd also kind of suck. He might be an evil little bastard, but given time his personality grows on you somehow :smallbiggrin:

factotum

2013-09-25, 11:05 AM

Well, there's plenty of ways to loophole out of it. The simplest being if the Oracle was just lying to spite him or in an attempt to sabotage his character development.

This assumes two things:

1) The Oracle *can* lie while in an oracular trance, which is supported by precisely zero evidence.

2) That the Giant is looking for a loophole. Why should he be? The other prophecies that have come true have been rather straightforward, it would be odd if Belkar's were different.

Trueknowndwarf

2013-09-25, 11:13 AM

First of all, Belkar did not die. The only time that Belkar was portrayed as dead was when everybody was living their fantasy (I thought that that was kind of funny that everyones fantasy included Belkar dying) when those runes activated. Second of all, there is only one time that I can think of that actually tells the passing of time in the comic which is when Roy's light thing tells him that he has been in heaven for 3 months. So if each comic is 1/4 of a day, according to my calculations, there could still be 1,092 more comics prior to Belkar's death, and at a release rate of approximately 1 per week, that would mean 23 more years of releasing OotS comics which I am pretty sure is not going to happen. Second of all, I think the Oracle isn't allowed to lie because people who are not supposed to die could die and vise versa.

hopeful1212

2013-09-25, 11:19 AM

I'm guessing that the Snarl is going to unmake him. It would get around all of the questions about resurrection and it fits the prophecy, probably better than if he died conventionally (wouldn't you still breathe in the afterlife?). The OOTS is also going to have to eventually know for certain whether the Snarl actually exists and what it's like instead of just hearing stories about it.

War-Wren

2013-09-25, 11:25 AM

wouldn't you still breathe in the afterlife?

Although not specifically stated along with the other reference points, I would guess breathing is not strictly necessary, either (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0499.html). I dunno, been ages since I read my Planescape books! :smallconfused:

Trueknowndwarf

2013-09-25, 11:26 AM

Oh ya, sorry I just want to clarify my calculations, because I know that a big pet peeve of mine is people using fancy calculations to support their point and then not explaining them because they could be making it up. So if each comic is 1/4 of a day, that is 4 comics equal to what the characters would experience as one day. Therefore to cover 9 months (9 months=273 days) of time in the comic, that would be 273 days times four comics for each fourth of a day. 273x4=1092. If Rich Burlew releases one per week which is what he has been doing, that would mean 1092 weeks of Order of the Stick continuing. (4 weeks in a month) 1092/4=273. 273 months is 22 3/4 years. Even if each comic was one day of time elapsed (each comic we see is equal to one day of what the characters experience) then 273 weeks is 5.6875 years long. Rich Burlew has said that he has a story arch that would last about 5 more years. So, therefore there is plenty of time for other things to happen before Belkar dies, because the comic will be up before the "year" (in the time of the characters perspective) is up.

Kish

2013-09-25, 12:37 PM

Each comic is not 1/4 of a day.

I considered linking the very-much-less than 360 comics in which Roy died and then learned that over three months had passed since he died. I also considered linking the comic where Vaarsuvius gets sucked into hell for just over twenty minutes and then, next comic, s/he hasn't been released from hell yet, much less been out of hell for hours. But really...the premise doesn't deserve as much effort as either one. Each comic has no relationship at all to 1/4 of a day.

NerdyKris

2013-09-25, 01:03 PM

F.Harr

2013-09-25, 01:12 PM

My bet is on Vampire!Belkar.

I still think he'd have fun as a vampire. But he could still use his IRA and enjoy birthday cakes. Maybe. If it we ME designing a vampire, I'd have solid food turn their stomachs.

I'm betting: Staying dead, becoming a PoV from hell. Possibly redeeming himself AFTER his death trying to get into whatever Chaotic Manipulative Neutral Cat-afterlife he'd have the highest chance of reuniting with Mr. Scruffy in.

That could be fun!

hopeful1212

2013-09-25, 01:19 PM

Although not specifically stated along with the other reference points, I would guess breathing is not strictly necessary, either (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0499.html). I dunno, been ages since I read my Planescape books! :smallconfused:

Maybe, although seems like something like that would have freaked Roy out when he first died. You get to an afterlife and you're not breathing. It has to be a very odd feeling. It's not something like eating or sleeping or defecating, since we only do those things some of the time. It's also a lot more obvious than your heart not beating. Of course, if your heart's not pumping your blood, you really don't have any need for respiration either it would seem...

In any case, I'm pretty sure I'm over-thinking this. :smallbiggrin:

Reddish Mage

2013-09-25, 02:15 PM

Sometimes a prophecy is just a prophecy.

Belkar remaining a character post-prophecy fulfillment is possible, but why should he? What story purpose would be attained by having any of the following:
1) Yet ANOTHER undead OOTS member.
2) A spirit in yet another afterlife
3) Some sort of Snarl-world loophole

I think the failed attempt at vampirism was the Giant's hint that Belkar will NOT be saved by gimmicks. The fact that Belkar is so close to death right now is heightening the drama surrounding the OOTS, as there is the very real possibility of a prophetic fulfillment in the next few strips.

Geordnet

2013-09-25, 02:25 PM

Heh, glad that this seems to have become a de facto belkar seculation thread...

Personally, I prefer the theory "dies the same way Kraggor did (however that really happened)".

Why? Because:

The Giant dislikes cheap death.
It's a blatent parallel to the Order of the Scribble.
Would have to happen close to the end of the comic.
There are many ways such a death could be noble or heroic.*

*A few reasons why this is an argument for.

It would be an excellent capstone to Belkar's character growth.
It would give the rest of the Order a reason to actually morn his passing, thus increasing the dramatic impact of the event.
Rich has made certain named (important) characters always die as a result of their own choices in the past.
I think it'd be awesome. :smalltongue:

Ghost Nappa

2013-09-25, 02:28 PM

Is there a way for someone to live without actually breathing in D&D without becoming Undead?

Because if there isn't, then I am do the whole predict-Belkar-character-growth-leading-him-to-die-by-protecting-the-Order (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DeathEqualsRedemption) stick. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/JustForPun)

Olinser

2013-09-25, 02:29 PM

This assumes two things:

1) The Oracle *can* lie while in an oracular trance, which is supported by precisely zero evidence.

2) That the Giant is looking for a loophole. Why should he be? The other prophecies that have come true have been rather straightforward, it would be odd if Belkar's were different.

No, it doesn't.

The Oracle has said exactly one statement regarding Belkar's approaching condition while in Trance:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0572.html

The exact wording is:

"Belkar will draw his last breath - ever - before the end of the year".

Forum goers have already suggested literally dozens of explanations that can satisfy the prophecy while keeping Belkar as an active member of the order (Vampire Belkar being the most popular, even BEFORE Malack and Vampire Durkon showed up).

Anything else the Oracle has said - enjoying his last birthday cake, funding his IRA, etc., were all done in normal conversation.

And the Oracle has already proven he can straight up lie in normal conversation.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0567.html

He tells Belkar in unambiguous words that his prophecy has already been fulfilled - it hadn't. His prophecy was fulfilled when Belkar killed the Oracle.

And as far as the other prophecies being straightforward.... clearly you weren't around when V's prophecy was fulfilled. There were so many arguments about whether V's "I... I must succeed" were the 4 words that the Oracle was talking about, that the Giant had to step in and state outright that those were the words the Oracle was talking about.

F.Harr

2013-09-25, 03:18 PM

Dwy

2013-09-25, 03:30 PM

Sometimes a prophecy is just a prophecy.

2) A spirit in yet another afterlife

More available eyes to tell the story through in hell, which could give us the IFCC's plan without them going monologue, cliche villain-style, to V. Or possibly, at a critical moment, someone to help V cheat vimself out of hell. Honestly, having enough well-known characters down there provides tons of storytelling potential.

factotum

2013-09-25, 03:54 PM

And as far as the other prophecies being straightforward.... clearly you weren't around when V's prophecy was fulfilled.

Might want to check the join dates there--I've been around considerably longer than you have, and I most definitely *was* around when his prophecy was fulfilled; I was one of the people arguing that the strip in question was, in fact, the fulfilment of the prophecy! Yes, there were a few vocal people who disagreed, but we're talking a forum where people will argue, even now, that those weren't *really* the fulfilment of the prophecy, despite word of Giant to the contrary.

As for your point that the Oracle can lie in normal speech--so? I never said he couldn't, which is why I clearly stated "while in an oracular trance". It's my personal belief that the Giant only included the scene with the Oracle confirming Belkar would die while in trance to shut down the people who were insisting the prophecy didn't actually mean that, and the fact it didn't work is a source of never-ending amusement to me. I fully expect Belkar to die before the strip ends, and I also fully expect people to still be asking when he's coming back when the last panel of the last strip has been posted.

Olinser

2013-09-25, 04:52 PM

Might want to check the join dates there--I've been around considerably longer than you have, and I most definitely *was* around when his prophecy was fulfilled; I was one of the people arguing that the strip in question was, in fact, the fulfilment of the prophecy! Yes, there were a few vocal people who disagreed, but we're talking a forum where people will argue, even now, that those weren't *really* the fulfilment of the prophecy, despite word of Giant to the contrary.

As for your point that the Oracle can lie in normal speech--so? I never said he couldn't, which is why I clearly stated "while in an oracular trance". It's my personal belief that the Giant only included the scene with the Oracle confirming Belkar would die while in trance to shut down the people who were insisting the prophecy didn't actually mean that, and the fact it didn't work is a source of never-ending amusement to me. I fully expect Belkar to die before the strip ends, and I also fully expect people to still be asking when he's coming back when the last panel of the last strip has been posted.

And you're still missing the point. The Oracle never said Belkar would die. He said he would draw his last breath.

And as I said, forum goers have proposed literally DOZENS of explanations where Belkar is around and no longer breathing.

Nordom

2013-09-25, 05:25 PM

Might want to check the join dates there--I've been around considerably longer than you have, and I most definitely *was* around when his prophecy was fulfilled; I was one of the people arguing that the strip in question was, in fact, the fulfilment of the prophecy! Yes, there were a few vocal people who disagreed, but we're talking a forum where people will argue, even now, that those weren't *really* the fulfilment of the prophecy, despite word of Giant to the contrary.

I think you're using a rather odd definition of the word "straightforward", if you think it can be applied to V's prophecy. The prophecy came true to the letter, but straightforward would imply it came through to the spirit which definitely isn't the case. For one the answer the oracle gave at the time he gave it was basically meaningless out of context. For two the spirit of V's question clearly wasn't "how will I obtain ultimate arcane power for a few hours before losing it forever". A straightfoward answer to "how will I obtain ultimate arcane power" might have been something like "briefly and at great cost".

Similarly, Durkan finding out that he will return home "posthumously" suggested to him that he would never see home again but that his remains would be buried in the dwarven homeland and, while that might still happen, as a vampire or future ex-vampire Durkan can and probably will return home undead or revived without breaking the letter of the prophecy. Again, this would be far from "straightforward".

Chronos

2013-09-25, 05:42 PM

Quoth Skarn:

Of course, it doesn't help that the Oracle kept beating around the bush. They never directly said Belkar was going to die, just used a lot of phrases that normally mean that. So people looking for an excuse to believe that he might not die will notice that lack of a firm statement.
The Oracle did not beat around the bush. Had he just said "Belkar's going to die", that would have been beating around the bush, since in a D&D world, for a high-level protagonist, death is pretty trivial. Instead, he made it as clear as he could that Belkar was going to be not just dead, but gone.

Kish

2013-09-25, 05:46 PM

I think you're using a rather odd definition of the word "straightforward", if you think it can be applied to V's prophecy. The prophecy came true to the letter, but straightforward would imply it came through to the spirit which definitely isn't the case. For one the answer the oracle gave at the time he gave it was basically meaningless out of context. For two the spirit of V's question clearly wasn't "how will I obtain ultimate arcane power for a few hours before losing it forever". A straightfoward answer to "how will I obtain ultimate arcane power" might have been something like "briefly and at great cost".
I agree with factotum.

"Briefly and at great cost" would have been an answer to a question that wasn't quite the one Vaarsuvius asked, if the Oracle had wanted to go out of his way to give Vaarsuvius useful information. "After becoming a vampire, and you'll tear up the place when you're there" would have been a nice thing to inform Durkon (no a, btw) of, if the Oracle had wanted to volunteer information for the dwarf who participated in dangling him out a window. But the Oracle's answers, at least for people he doesn't like, are minimalist and literal, which doesn't mean "non-straightforward."

Geordnet

2013-09-25, 07:28 PM

And you're still missing the point. The Oracle never said Belkar would die. He said he would draw his last breath.

And as I said, forum goers have proposed literally DOZENS of explanations where Belkar is around and no longer breathing.
And you're missing the point too. :smallsigh:

Bulldog Psion

2013-09-25, 07:35 PM

I'm willing to wait to be surprised. Whatever the outcome with Belkar, I have every faith that Mr. Burlew will make it awesome. :smallcool:

Nordom

2013-09-25, 07:38 PM

I agree with factotum.

"Briefly and at great cost" would have been an answer to a question that wasn't quite the one Vaarsuvius asked, if the Oracle had wanted to go out of his way to give Vaarsuvius useful information. "After becoming a vampire, and you'll tear up the place when you're there" would have been a nice thing to inform Durkon (no a, btw) of, if the Oracle had wanted to volunteer information for the dwarf who participated in dangling him out a window. But the Oracle's answers, at least for people he doesn't like, are minimalist and literal, which doesn't mean "non-straightforward."

"Minimalist and literal" is basically a subtype of "evasive" which is basically a synonym for "non-straightforward", at least by my reckoning. If you disagree so be it, I don't see any value in getting bogged down in semantics.

More broadly, there has never been a prophecy from any source that I can think of where:

1. There's a clear, straightforward interpretation.
2. That clear, straightforward interpretation is what actually happens.

Either it's "when the goat turns" gobbledygook that makes no sense until the exact moment it comes true, or it's designed to be technically correct but misleading or, in Vaarsuvius's particular case, a little of both.

Kish

2013-09-25, 07:45 PM

More broadly, there has never been a prophecy from any source that I can think of where:

1. There's a clear, straightforward interpretation.
2. That clear, straightforward interpretation is what actually happens.
Does "The sorcerer who killed your master goes by Xykon" count?

'Cause the only reason the Order ever knew to look for Xykon, was because Eugene got that answer from the Oracle.

That is, perhaps, not exactly a prophecy, though it's an answer from the Oracle. So how about Belkar's killing someone on his list? By stabbing that person with his daggers? As straightforward as could be, the surprise being in the fact that dozens of people on the forum spent hundreds of strips spinning theories of varying degrees of plausibility before the stabbing. (Also, Xykon was at Girard's Gate before Kraagor's Gate; if there was misleading there--and for the audience there wasn't--then it was in the question, which the Oracle did not control, not in the answer.)

Echobox

2013-09-25, 07:52 PM

"Minimalist and literal" is basically a subtype of "evasive" which is basically a synonym for "non-straightforward", at least by my reckoning. If you disagree so be it, I don't see any value in getting bogged down in semantics.

More broadly, there has never been a prophecy from any source that I can think of where:

1. There's a clear, straightforward interpretation.
2. That clear, straightforward interpretation is what actually happens.

Either it's "when the goat turns" gobbledygook that makes no sense until the exact moment it comes true, or it's designed to be technically correct but misleading or, in Vaarsuvius's particular case, a little of both.

Belkar's prophecy. The clear, straightforward interpretation is that he kills one of the people in his list. Lo and behold, that's what happens (even if the Oracle tries to avoid it).

The Oracle has only limited ability to see the answers to questions he hasn't asked or been asked; for instance, he doesn't realize that banishing Roy lets him keep his memory. However, he seems to have some ability, imperfect though it may be, to see the context of his answers. He is gleeful at the prospect of Belkar's imminent not-breathing-anymore.

It's possible, of course, that Belkar will become a vampire, or otherwise fulfill the prophecy without losing his agency. However, if he does, it is near certain that the Oracle doesn't realize it. The Oracle believes Belkar is going to die.

Nordom

2013-09-25, 08:28 PM

Does "The sorcerer who killed your master goes by Xykon" count?

'Cause the only reason the Order ever knew to look for Xykon, was because Eugene got that answer from the Oracle.

That is, perhaps, not exactly a prophecy, though it's an answer from the Oracle. So how about Belkar's killing someone on his list? By stabbing that person with his daggers? As straightforward as could be, the surprise being in the fact that dozens of people on the forum spent hundreds of strips spinning theories of varying degrees of plausibility before the stabbing. (Also, Xykon was at Girard's Gate before Kraagor's Gate; if there was misleading there--and for the audience there wasn't--then it was in the question, which the Oracle did not control, not in the answer.)

Note that I'm arguing less about the character of the oracle or even the in universe nature of prophecy and more about the way prophecy is deployed as a narrative device. Revealing information to characters when the reader either:

A. Already has the information (Xykon's identity)
B. Has no reason to care about the information (which of two locations Xykon will visit next when they're both just names on a nonexistent map as far as the reader is concerned)

are outside the scope of what I'm talking about. That Belkar will kill one of a half-dozen characters is probably the strongest counterpoint to my argument. But even there the question and answer structure is designed to misidrect the audience. Belkar rattles off a half a dozen names, all but two of which would have been Big Deals if Belkar killed them. So the audience is left with "Belkar might kill Miko or turn on the party" which would have been significant developments, but are actually left with "Belkar kills a jokey plot device character no one really cares about".

Having a prophet strongly imply "Belkar is about to permadie and be written out of the script" and then actually having that happen would be a new type of heavy handed plot telegraphy that OotS hasn't yet gone in for. That's not to say it won't happen anyway, but it wouldn't fit the pre-established pattern.

tomandtish

2013-09-25, 08:46 PM

OK, I'm going to bravely dive into a Belkar speculation thread. My comments assume that the Oracle is 100% accurate (although cryptic and misleading at times).

A lot of the back and forth speculation is based on the Oracle comments (official and otherwise). It's obvious that the Oracle was aware of Belkar's death. But why? After all, it wasn't a question he'd been asked. So it must be a question he'd asked on his own behalf. Presumably he keeps a running tab of "Who is going to kill me?" as well as date/time so he can be raised.

It's always important to remember that the Oracle apparently can get great information WHEN he asks the right questions. But he does make mistakes (Roy remembering everything from their last conversation). This indicates that he's not infallible.

Now, obviously he knows that Belkar's going to kill him. He'll wants some revenge or payback for this so he is able (through quite a few questions) to realize that his death at Belkar's hands had the potential for great pain for Belkar. Thus he knows that he'll need to set up his own town after they leave.

But he's still going to want the final payback of knowing Belkar is dead, especially since Belkar's reason for killing him his pretty flimsy. So he finds out when Belkar is going to die. Upon hearing that it is "before the end of the year", he's estatic. Another question or two:

"Will he be raised, resurrected, or wished back to life"? "No"
"Will he be reincarnated?" "No"
"Will he ever draw another breath?" "No"

So at this point, he's now happy. As far as he knows, Belkar's dead as a doornail with no chance of return. And to drive the point home, he gives the last one as his answer. "Belkar will draw his last breath - ever - before the end of the year".

The point is, the Oracle is only as good as the questions he asks. And since we didn't actually see the question process, there's actually a lot of room for interpretation. The only things that can reasonably be said is that Belkar is probably going to die (or enter some other state that would not be considered "life" as we consider it) and that he will not return to a state of "life" as we consider it.

Technically, we don't even know for sure that the Oracle knows HOW Belkar dies, only that he does. A few more questions might change things immensely.

"How does Belkar die?" "Killed by Vampire"
"Is he turned into one?" "Yes"
"Does this make him happy?" "Yes, he's now an even better killing machine"
"$%^&!"

Note: I'm not saying this is what I believe. I'm simply throwing it out there as a way to show that even if you take the official and unofficial comments by the Oracle as correct, it doesn't automatically take Belkar out of play forever and ever. I have faith that whatever Rich does, at a minimum I'll enjoy it (which is the important thing). And maybe he'll surprise all of us.

Geordnet

2013-09-26, 12:04 AM

I don't think anyone here has argued there's no possible loopholes. What's being argued is whether Rich will use a loophole, or play it straight. Personally, I prefer the latter option; mostly since I think a loophole would be cheap and a waste of great dramatic potential.

Kish

2013-09-26, 06:15 AM

Having a prophet strongly imply "Belkar is about to permadie and be written out of the script" and then actually having that happen would be a new type of heavy handed plot telegraphy that OotS hasn't yet gone in for. That's not to say it won't happen anyway, but it wouldn't fit the pre-established pattern.
The only preestablished pattern I see from your claims, is that the Oracle has never predicted "one of the six protagonists will die and stay gone" for anyone else. And, by hedging and chopping "This was information the audience already had so it doesn't count, that wasn't information that mattered to the audience so it doesn't count, that was useful to Haley but it wasn't literal so it doesn't count, that was literal but it wasn't as useful to Vaarsuvius as it could have been so it doesn't count"...you can declare the one prophecy you don't want to come true to be fundamentally different from all the ones that already came true.

War-Wren

2013-09-26, 07:03 AM

Maybe, although seems like something like that would have freaked Roy out when he first died. You get to an afterlife and you're not breathing. It has to be a very odd feeling. It's not something like eating or sleeping or defecating, since we only do those things some of the time. It's also a lot more obvious than your heart not beating. Of course, if your heart's not pumping your blood, you really don't have any need for respiration either it would seem...

In any case, I'm pretty sure I'm over-thinking this. :smallbiggrin:

I know the convo has moved on but I thought I'd answer this one, especially as it came from my comment initially :smallsmile:

I reckon it'd be one of those things that you'd eventually not "remember" to do. You'd be so taken up with aligning with the Plane you are resting on that breathing would become an unnecessary inconvenience and you could just stop.

Like you say, maybe that particular bit about breathing is being over thought. But then the whole issue of Belkar dying is probably being over thought too, forum-wide... though people do love speculation and it's fun to read some of the more outlandish theories :smallbiggrin:

Niknokitueu

2013-09-26, 07:15 AM

My viewpoint:

Either he will die unconventionally (ie snarl'd), which will prevent him being brought back, or

a) His teammates will think he has still not redeemed himself enough to warrant a raise (unlikely as of the last dozen panels), or
b) There will be an afterlife interview where he somehow squeaks into CN afterlife, Goes 'Sweet!' and refuses to come back when raised with an explanation along the lines of 'Got a good deal here, not willing to risk it'.

(I am obviously hoping for b, which means it he is probably going to be a snarl snack :smallbiggrin: )

Have Fun!
Niknokitueu

Nordom

2013-09-26, 09:20 AM

The only preestablished pattern I see from your claims, is that the Oracle has never predicted "one of the six protagonists will die and stay gone" for anyone else. And, by hedging and chopping "This was information the audience already had so it doesn't count, that wasn't information that mattered to the audience so it doesn't count, that was useful to Haley but it wasn't literal so it doesn't count, that was literal but it wasn't as useful to Vaarsuvius as it could have been so it doesn't count"...you can declare the one prophecy you don't want to come true to be fundamentally different from all the ones that already came true.

As has been pointed out "come true" is not what anyone is really arguing about. That Belkar will in some literal way "draw his last breath" everyone is accepting as a given. And it's not just "the death of one of the main characters has never been predicted" it's that nothing that actually matters to the reader has been flatly laid out in prophecy. If the oracle had predicted the destruction of Azure City or that Miko would fall as a paladin or that Elan would have to square off against his evil father, or the death of any character the audience has a reason to care about central protagonist or no, that would have broken the pattern I'm talking about. Moving the role of prophecy from "extremely vague foreshadowing" to "flat out spoiling major plot points" would be a change in narrative style, and to my mind a rather odd one.

As a side note; the thing about V's prophecy isn't that it wasn't useful to V, it's that it wasn't useful period. That V will at some point "say the right four words to the right person for the wrong reason" is in the same realm as the goofy "red strikes true" prophecy from the beginning of the comic in being basically information free. You don't know what it's actually referring to until it actually happens. The one piece of implied information that actually meant anything (that V would actually succeed in his goal of arcane mastery) turned out to be a misdirect.

F.Harr

2013-09-26, 09:29 AM

I'm willing to wait to be surprised. Whatever the outcome with Belkar, I have every faith that Mr. Burlew will make it awesome. :smallcool:

Yup. Me too.

"I don't think anyone here has argued there's no possible loopholes. What's being argued is whether Rich will use a loophole, or play it straight. Personally, I prefer the latter option; mostly since I think a loophole would be cheap and a waste of great dramatic potential."

Works for me.

War-Wren

2013-09-26, 09:45 AM

Yup. Me too.

"I don't think anyone here has argued there's no possible loopholes. What's being argued is whether Rich will use a loophole, or play it straight. Personally, I prefer the latter option; mostly since I think a loophole would be cheap and a waste of great dramatic potential."

Works for me.

I like the idea of it being played straight and Belkar getting a real Hero's death scene, saving the day and all that tragic stuff, as the strings swell and the readers shed bitter tears of loss and even Roy admits that he's gonna miss the pschopathic killer, who truly had turned over a new leaf come the end... or vamped... that works for me too (let's face it we only tune in to see him stab things! (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0568.html)) :smalltongue:

Skarn

2013-10-01, 08:07 AM

This assumes two things:

1) The Oracle *can* lie while in an oracular trance, which is supported by precisely zero evidence.
That's true, but why would the default assumption be that the Oracle can't lie? Only the Oracle knows the exact extent of his(her?) abilities, but the term "trance" is almost certainly misleading. See the conversation with Roy before his prophecy for example.

2) That the Giant is looking for a loophole. Why should he be? The other prophecies that have come true have been rather straightforward, it would be odd if Belkar's were different.
Two reasons:
1) The Oracle went out of their way to share this information. It's not unreasonable to expect an ulterior motive here, given the whole "kinda hates OoTS and really hates Belkar Bitterleaf, Kobold-murderer extraordinaire" thing. Why say anything that could potentially help the Order, much less Belkar?
2) The other prophecies were all either simply answers to precisely-worded questions, or too vague to be of any use. And Belkar's last prophecy was arguably self-fulfilling, which raises a lot of questions. What if this one is too?

Point being, the prophecy may actually be a veiled attempt to kill him off for good before he can achieve meaningful redemption, making the Order think "well, the Oracle said he wouldn't come back so don't bother trying a Resurrection, no reason to waste the resources on a crap shoot. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0845.html)"

I still think he'd have fun as a vampire. But he could still use his IRA and enjoy birthday cakes. Maybe. If it we ME designing a vampire, I'd have solid food turn their stomachs.
I could be wrong, but I think that Vampires would never retire(as they don't grow "old" as such) and can't taste food, which would mean both of those make sense in context if that's the route it's taking. I still kinda doubt it though. Depending on who you ask, if he were vamped wouldn't technically be Belkar anyway, so there'd be no need for the prophecy to apply to him.

The Oracle did not beat around the bush. Had he just said "Belkar's going to die", that would have been beating around the bush, since in a D&D world, for a high-level protagonist, death is pretty trivial. Instead, he made it as clear as he could that Belkar was going to be not just dead, but gone.
Had the Oracle said "Belkar is going to die-- permanently-- before the end of the year," then that would be clear and unambiguous. Right now, for all we know, Belkar's going to draw one last picture of a fire-breathing dragon before the end of the year. :smalltongue:

Belkar's prophecy. The clear, straightforward interpretation is that he kills one of the people in his list. Lo and behold, that's what happens (even if the Oracle tries to avoid it).
Some food for thought though: why would the Oracle try to survive if we assume it can't be avoided or averted in any way? There would be no point to trying if failure was a forgone conclusion, and the Oracle would know that better than anyone.

I don't think anyone here has argued there's no possible loopholes. What's being argued is whether Rich will use a loophole, or play it straight. Personally, I prefer the latter option; mostly since I think a loophole would be cheap and a waste of great dramatic potential.
And I prefer the former, for almost exactly the same reasons.

What's the point of character development that's going to be rendered irrelevant in a few weeks or less?

Ceaon

2013-10-01, 08:15 AM

What's the point of character development that's going to be rendered irrelevant in a few weeks or less?

I'd argue that the development of characters that later die isn't "irrelevant".
Many characters in this comic showed development en then died. We can still learn from them, enjoy them, compare them to other characters, etcetera.

Sloanzilla

2013-10-01, 10:20 AM

I do like the idea of the last Belkar strip showing him cooking fish with some Slaadi, though I guess Slaadi are copyright.

Red.Tide

2013-10-01, 10:44 AM

On what possible observations are you basing your caclulations on? Comics are most definitely NOT 6 hours a piece. This is so out of left field, I don't even know how to refute it other than "reread literally EVERY extended scene in the comic."

Actually, I can think of an extremely good one. The ENTIRE battle for Azure city, taking place from 417 (the night before the battle) to 484 (the following night) was only 24 hours over 67 strips.

An even easier example: as of comic 922, we're still in the same day as comic 837 (arguably 836 as well). This current arc is the longest day (measured by # of strips) that OotS has had.

Fish

2013-10-01, 11:00 AM

Examine the sequence of when we know the prophecies come true:

Haley's prophecy: before Soon's Gate
Vaarsuvius's prophecy: after Soon's Gate
Belkar's prophecy: after Soon's Gate
Roy's prophecy: after/battle for Girard's Gate
Durkon's prophecy: before Kraagor's Gate?
Elan's prophecy: after Kraahor's gate?

Belkar's death: ???

The nature of prophecy is literary foreshadowing. Rich spread out the prophecies to illuminate the road ahead.

It would therefore make sense that the death of Bellar happens between now and Kraagor's Gate: possibly during that battle but not after. I personally read it as "dies during the final battle," but it's only a guess.

War-Wren

2013-10-01, 11:05 AM

An even easier example: as of comic 922, we're still in the same day as comic 837 (arguably 836 as well). This current arc is the longest day (measured by # of strips) that OotS has had.

That's because no-one has had the chance to say "Later that evening..." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0155.html) :smallwink:

urkthegurk

2013-10-01, 11:42 AM

Is there a way for someone to live without actually breathing in D&D without becoming Undead?

Yes there is. At least one. There's an Ioun Stone, the Iridescent Spindle, which Sustains a creature without air.

Theirum

2013-10-01, 12:05 PM

This is just unwarranted speculation here but...
What if his brain/soul/what have you is put into a construct or something like that. Constructs don't need to breath and...never mind. Just the thought of Terminator Belkar is far to dangerous to even think about

lt_murgen

2013-10-01, 12:11 PM

My bet is that Belkar gets turned into a female.

The prophecy was that he would draw his last breath - ever- by the end of the year.

The oracle could have just interpreted it as him dying.

The Oni

2013-10-01, 12:44 PM

If he honestly found the Ioun Stone that makes you not breathe, that would feel like a huge copout.

Female Belkar would just be terrifying, though. On top of being violent, low Wisdom, dual-wielding knives and throwing cats at people.

Fish

2013-10-01, 01:15 PM

If that happens I'll do a Belkar version of my gender-belt-wearing avatar.

F.Harr

2013-10-01, 01:23 PM

I do like the idea of the last Belkar strip showing him cooking fish with some Slaadi, though I guess Slaadi are copyright.

The picture in the Wikipedia article reminds me of the frog-people in the Hellboy stories.

If that happens I'll do a Belkar version of my gender-belt-wearing avatar.

Do it, anyway. I'm not convinced you'd get a chance, otherwise.

Sloanzilla

2013-10-01, 01:52 PM

will he get to kill the winged kobold guy before dying? He's killed every prior kobold.

AutomatedTeller

2013-10-01, 02:50 PM

Maybe he gets resurrected as a dinosaur.

I dunno what happens to Belkar, but the comic hasn't really missed a beat with Durkon being a vampire, so I'm guessing it will still go strong with a dead Belkar, in whatever form that means. I certainly won't believe he's actually gone until he is.

War-Wren

2013-10-02, 05:15 AM

will he get to kill the winged kobold guy before dying? He's killed every prior kobold.

Prediction! Ironic death with KilKil taking out Belkar in a dramatic reversal of form! :smallamused:

Kiraxa

2013-10-02, 05:48 AM

Honestly I think the prophecy is already fulfilled. Remember the Oracle is big on technicalities. The Belkar that existed at the time of that prophecy no longer exists.

War-Wren

2013-10-02, 06:11 AM

Honestly I think the prophecy is already fulfilled. Remember the Oracle is big on technicalities. The Belkar that existed at the time of that prophecy no longer exists.

What, the psycopathic halfing ranger that likes to stab people and see those he doesn't like/know suffer? Pretty sure he does.

He's just learning how to hide it better and play by the rules a little more. In his heart he's still an evil little bastard who barely cares about anyone else (other than Mr Scruffy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0807.html) and Big Guy, I guess. And, it could be argued (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0408.html), Shojo too (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0890.html).)

Essentially, he is still the Belkar we know and so is still the Belkar that is predicted to die.

Dodom

2013-10-02, 07:15 AM

You're all arguing for nothing! OBVIOUSLY Belkar is about to turn into a fish.

Lombard

2013-10-02, 11:12 AM

David Argall

2013-10-02, 12:12 PM

And the Oracle has already proven he can straight up lie in normal conversation.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0567.html

He tells Belkar in unambiguous words that his prophecy has already been fulfilled - it hadn't. His prophecy was fulfilled when Belkar killed the Oracle.

The statement was not a lie. The Oracle gives 3 [3 1/2] ways the prophecy had been fulfilled. That they were not THE way doesn't change that. Nor does any lack of emotional satisfaction. Nor are they made lies by relying on strained definitions. In fact that is almost a required part of prophecies. Belkar was a very real cause of Roy's death, and the prophecy was fulfilled from the moment Roy hit the ground.

FujinAkari

2013-10-02, 12:16 PM

Honestly I think the prophecy is already fulfilled. Remember the Oracle is big on technicalities. The Belkar that existed at the time of that prophecy no longer exists.

Citation needed. The Oracle answers prophesies straight forwardly more often than not.

In what way is "In Xykon's Throneroom." "A sorcerer named Xykon." "Yes, you will get to kill one of those people." or "Girard's Gate." in any way technical?

Even Durkon's "post-humously," isn't a technicalaty. You might be able to get Haley or V's prophesy as being unhelpful, but I won't even call them technicalities.

The Oracle has a record which implies he is straight-forward and succinct, more often than not.

Gray Mage

2013-10-02, 08:35 PM

Ceaon

2013-10-03, 04:46 AM

I think of it more from the meta petspective I guess. Belkar has long been one of the most popular characters in the strip, and one of the most consistent sources of humor and reader engagement. This is now a professional enterprise for Mr. Burlew. There are plenty of ways in which that prophecy can be loopholed around. Connect the dots?

Yet, you could also argue: The Giant had already planned the story ahead, in which Belkar's death and Belkar being written out of the story were necessities. Because he saw how Belkar was a popular and well-liked character, he felt the need to inform the audience ahead of time that Belkar wouldn't make it to the end of the story.

You may be assuming The Giant is telling a story that depends on what the audience wants. I assume The Giant is telling a story he wants to tell, and he is just "lucky" that it's something that a large audience seems to enjoy.

factotum

2013-10-03, 07:59 AM

This is now a professional enterprise for Mr. Burlew. There are plenty of ways in which that prophecy can be loopholed around. Connect the dots?

The prophecy Belkar would die originally popped up in strip #329 (2006), and was reinforced in #572 (2008). The comic had already been a professional enterprise for quite some while at even the first of those (the first two book compilations and On the Origin of PCs had already been published), so why would the Giant have put the prophecies in there in the first place if your theory is correct? He could have just not have the Oracle mention Belkar was going to die at all.

David Argall

2013-10-03, 11:46 AM

The prophecy Belkar would die originally popped up in strip #329 (2006), and was reinforced in #572 (2008). The comic had already been a professional enterprise for quite some while at even the first of those (the first two book compilations and On the Origin of PCs had already been published), so why would the Giant have put the prophecies in there in the first place if your theory is correct? He could have just not have the Oracle mention Belkar was going to die at all.
Not really. Will he-won't he [die] is one thing keeping an unknown, but likely notable number of readers reading. So our professional writer has full motive to put in the predictions no matter what the intended outcome.
Now our writer pretty clearly wants an audience, even if he doesn't conduct surveys to find what would make the story more popular. So it is entirely reasonable [if not proved] that Belkar's fate was decided with an eye to reader reaction. However, that does not really tell us much. Popular characters get killed off all the time in soaps where the intent is entirely to get more viewers. Deciding that a dead Belkar will attract more readers than a live one, if not necessarily correct, is quite reasonable.

factotum

2013-10-03, 05:16 PM

Deciding that a dead Belkar will attract more readers than a live one, if not necessarily correct, is quite reasonable.

I never said it wasn't. I'm one of those who think Belkar is going to die real soon now. However, Lombard clearly isn't, or he wouldn't be coming up with theories that the author is going to loophole around the prophecy due to Belkar's popularity, would he?

Lombard

2013-10-03, 08:49 PM

Yet, you could also argue: The Giant had already planned the story ahead, in which Belkar's death and Belkar being written out of the story were necessities. Because he saw how Belkar was a popular and well-liked character, he felt the need to inform the audience ahead of time that Belkar wouldn't make it to the end of the story.

You may be assuming The Giant is telling a story that depends on what the audience wants. I assume The Giant is telling a story he wants to tell, and he is just "lucky" that it's something that a large audience seems to enjoy.

Well I admit that I often think of things from a business perspective.. it's rather amazing to me that Giant's been able to turn this into a career, and I guess part of that amazement is the thought of how ephemeral an artistic career is and how vulnerable it is to the whims of one's audience.

I don't expect we'll agree, and I could very well be wrong, but to your first paragraph the counter-argument could be that the prophecy created an interesting tension in both the story and the readerbase that had an intrinsic value in an of itself. For your second paragraph I don't necessarily think that it has to be only about what the artist wants, or only about what the audience wants, but could easily be somewhere in between.

Ceaon

2013-10-04, 01:37 AM

Well I admit that I often think of things from a business perspective.. it's rather amazing to me that Giant's been able to turn this into a career, and I guess part of that amazement is the thought of how ephemeral an artistic career is and how vulnerable it is to the whims of one's audience.

I don't expect we'll agree, and I could very well be wrong, but to your first paragraph the counter-argument could be that the prophecy created an interesting tension in both the story and the readerbase that had an intrinsic value in an of itself. For your second paragraph I don't necessarily think that it has to be only about what the artist wants, or only about what the audience wants, but could easily be somewhere in between.

Now that you've explained your reasoning in a less black-and-white manner, I find that I can't do anything but agree with you. We can never really know why the Giant chose to do something, especially before the story is over. That is, unless he flat-out tells us (and even then that may not be the real reason, but a rationalization after the fact, as almost all people are wont to do).

Thinking about it, I'd say the audience doesn't affect what story the Giant is teling (plot points, character development, etcetera), but the readers do influence the Giant in how he's telling that story (character's choice of words, small in-jokes, etcetera).