Hags (Playable) (3.5) (Please PEACH)

[LordErebus12]

Racial Statistics: (Work in progress)

+2 Wis. Hags are wise creatures, but tend to be quiet and reserved, as well as being more prone to the solitary life. Some hags do form the occasional coven or guild, but most seem content to be alone.

Medium Monstrous Humanoid: As monstrous humanoids, hags are immune to any effect that only affects humanoids, such as Charm Person or Enlarge Person.

Base Land Speed: 30 feet. Swim Speed: 30 feet.

Darkvision: 60 feet.

Natural Attacks: Two primary claw attacks (1d4).

Racial Skills: A hag has a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform some special action or avoid a hazard. It can always choose to take 10 on a Swim check, even if distracted or endangered. It can use the run action while swimming, provided it swims in a straight line.

In addition, Hags have a +1 bonus on all charisma based skill checks when dealing with other hags.

Amphibious (Su): Although not a true aquatic creature, a hag can breathe air and water equally well. Hags often spend a great deal of time within the flooded ruins within swamps or lakes, searching for lost secrets.

Mimicry (Ex/Sp): A hag can imitate the sounds of any creature with the animal type. Furthermore, Three times per day, a hag can use Speak with Animals as a spell-like ability.

Automatic Languages: Common

Bonus Languages: Aquan, Auran, Giant, Ignan, Sylvan and Terran

Favored Class: Warlock or Witch (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11611224&postcount=1)

Level Adjustment: +1


——————— ——————— ———————

Racial Class (Work in progress)

Hag Racial Class

Abilities: Any.
Alignment: Any. Typically Evil
Hit Die: d8

Class Skills
The Hag's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Hide (Dex), Knowledge (All; taken individually) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Spot (Wis), Spellcraft (Int), and Survival (Wis)

Skill Points at 1st Level: (2 + Int modifier) × 4.
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 2 + Int modifier.

{table=head]{colsp=7}Table: Hag Racial Class
Level| BAB | Fort| Ref |Will| Special | Abilities

1st |+1 |+0 |+2 |+2 | Magic Adept | +2 Cha
2nd |+2 |+0 |+3 |+3 | Thick Skin (+2) | +2 Str
3rd |+3 |+1 |+3 |+3 | Spell-Like Abilities | +2 Int
4th |+4 |+1 |+4 |+4 | Thick Skin (+4), Weakness | +2 Str
5th |+5 |+1 |+4 |+4 | Spell-Like Abilities | +2 Cha
6th |+6 |+2 |+5 |+5 | Resistant Hide, Thick Skin (+6) | +2 Str
[/table]

Class Features
All of the following are class features of the Hags.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency:
Hags are proficient with the club, dagger and quarterstaff. Hags are proficient with no armor or shields.

Spell-Like Abilities:
The save DCs are Charisma-based. The hag's caster level is equal to its total level.
3rd – at will – dancing lights, disguise self, ghost sound.
5th – 3/day – animal trance, entangle.

1st - Magic Adept (Su): A Hag's racial levels partially stack with one caster class of their choice. The Hag adds half her racial levels to the class granting spellcasting progression and access. Once chosen, this class choice cannot be changed again.

2nd - Thick Skin (Ex):
Hag skin gets much tougher as they advance in level, it becomes extremely thick and heavily wrinkled, giving them the appearance of someone far older than what they actually are. Some hags have trouble with this, though, and attempt to hide their changing bodies under layers of magic to disguise it. Hags gain a +2 natural armor bonus to armor class. This natural armor bonus increases to +4 at 4th level and again to +6 at 6th level.

3rd - Weakness (Su): A hag can weaken a foe by making a special touch attack. The opponent must succeed on a DC (10 + 1/2 Racial Levels + Cha modifier) Fortitude save or take 2d4 points of Strength damage. The save DC is Charisma-based.

5th - Resistant Hide (Su): A hag's skin begins to repel and ignore magical effects cast upon her. The Hag gains Spell Resistance equal to 6 + hag's level total. This can be ignored at will if the spell is harmless to the hag.

[Vauron]

Are you familiar with the idea of Improved Monster Classes? Basically, a monster is made into a base class which gives you what the monster would get over a few levels.

Take a look at this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9405322&postcount=539) and see if it would work for you.

[LordErebus12]

Are you familiar with the idea of Improved Monster Classes? Basically, a monster is made into a base class which gives you what the monster would get over a few levels.

Take a look at this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9405322&postcount=539) and see if it would work for you.

I am familiar, but its not really what i was looking for.

[Vauron]

In that case, maybe something along the lines of:

Green Hag
Green hags are found in desolate swamps and dark forests.
A green hag is about the same height and weight as a female human.

Green Hag Traits

Monstrous Humanoid: Green Hags are not subject to spells or effects that affect humanoids only, such as charm person or dominate person.
+2 Strength, +2 Charisma
Darkvision 90 feet
Swim Speed 30 feet
Spell-like Abilities: Green Hags use the following spell-like abilities once per day: dancing lights, disguise self, water breathing, ghost sound
Mimicry (Ex): A green hag can imitate the sounds of almost any animal found near its lair.
Skills: A green hag has a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform some special action or avoid a hazard. It can always choose to take 10 on a Swim check, even if distracted or endangered. It can use the run action while swimming, provided it swims in a straight line.
LA: 1


The rest of the spell-likes, Spell Resistance, Weakness, and more uses/day could be provided by a Paragon class.

[LordErebus12]

I want to downplay the huge strength bonuses normally associated with the creature. What about what I did at the top?

[Yarghenforgen]

As both of its listed favored classes use Charisma as a primary stat, it seems like a really poor idea to penalize it.

EDIT: Also, I might go so far as to give a Charisma bonus, if it isn't totally out of line for flavor. As it is, the race looks fairly lackluster for a LA +1 choice, but that may just be me.

[Vauron]

Setting aside the fact that your DM is the one who makes the decision whether something is ok, I find it strange you are prioritizing Wisdom over Charisma. Green Hags have a higher Charisma than Wisdom, and their spells are based on Charisma, so penalizing the stat their spells are based on is odd.

[LordErebus12]

As both of its listed favored classes use Charisma as a primary stat, it seems like a really poor idea to penalize it.

EDIT: Also, I might go so far as to give a Charisma bonus, if it isn't totally out of line for flavor. As it is, the race looks fairly lackluster for a LA +1 choice, but that may just be me.

That is true, but look at the racial class... It gains increases to it overtime.


Setting aside the fact that your DM is the one who makes the decision whether something is ok, I find it strange you are prioritizing Wisdom over Charisma. Green Hags have a higher Charisma than Wisdom, and their spells are based on Charisma, so penalizing the stat their spells are based on is odd.

How I have it now is that they don't get spell-like abilities right away (with the exception of speak with animals), unless they progress down the racial class.

EDIT: It gains +6 Str, +2 Wis, +4 Cha over the progression of the racial class and adds those levels to one spellcasting class for spell progression/access.

[LordErebus12]

Anything anyone want to add? I could use some help.

[bekeleven]

You give a full D8 HD and full BAB every level, in addition to good ref, full casting and stat bonuses?

Yeah, I'd say that's pretty good. Why is this not strictly better than, say, sorcerer (for non-kobolds)?

Most monster classes have some LA associated, and every couple levels they give a "level" with no BAB, HD or Saves that serves only to give an effective level adjustment to the character.

You've just built the god of all gish bases.

[LordErebus12]

You give a full D8 HD and full BAB every level, in addition to good ref, full casting and stat bonuses?

Yeah, I'd say that's pretty good. Why is this not strictly better than, say, sorcerer (for non-kobolds)?

Most monster classes have some LA associated, and every couple levels they give a "level" with no BAB, HD or Saves that serves only to give an effective level adjustment to the character.

You've just built the god of all gish bases.

Okay. I understand where you are coming from. I've raised the level adjustment for the race to LA +1. What do you think?

[bekeleven]

Okay. I understand where you are coming from. I've raised the level adjustment for the race to LA +1. What do you think?

I think the LA is a significantly better adjustment than Mineral Warrior (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20031003e). Considered one of, or the, best LA +1 Template in 3.5, it has +3 NA, DR 8, slow burrow, and a favorable stat spread with a +0 net modifier. For LA +1, this race gives +9 natural armor, 30% spell resist, a swim speed, and +12 to stats with a gish spread.

Now, most monster classes balance this with either a level adjustment or loads of crappy racial HD. Instead, you've taken one of the best racial HD (full BAB, 2 saves, with only low fort and skill points) and layered full casting on top of it.

The only issue now is that with +1 LA, a sorc would be a full spell level behind a wizard. This is slightly, but not largely, mitigated by the fact that you baked the LA into the base race, allowing the player to buy it off - however, they couldn't do so until ECL 10. A larger issue is that monster classes are traditionally designed to allow a player to play a monster starting level 1, which is why they all begin with LA0 base races.

Are you obeying the "must finish racial class before multiclassing" rules that some books, but not others, outline? And if so, how does magic adept interact with it?

[LordErebus12]

Are you obeying the "must finish racial class before multiclassing" rules that some books, but not others, outline? And if so, how does magic adept interact with it?

Racial classes can be taken at any level to any point, ignored entirely, or completed in full. your choice, as always. Magic adept just allows these levels to stack with one caster class of your choice. LA +1 can be bought off at, what? 3rd level?

Lets say you have bought off the level adjustment, have four levels in the racial class, four levels in sorcerer and one level in cleric. For casting (via magic adept) you picked sorcerer. Therefore, you have access to 4th level sorcerer spells and cast spells as a 8th level sorcerer and have an ECL of 9.

[bekeleven]

Racial classes can be taken at any level to any point, ignored entirely, or completed in full.Savage Species, p.152: "A monster character may not multiclass until it completes the full progression in its monster class."

Also, why give them -2 CHA to start then give them +2 CHA at level 1? Seems unnecessary. If your argument is that someone can skip the racial class, ask yourself, who would play a green hag with this racial class on the table and not take it? What builds would be better for ignoring that option?

LA buy-off doesn't count racial HD towards the count. So a player would have +1 LA until (6 HD + 3 Class Levels) ECL 10 if you don't allow multiclassing.

If you allow multiclassing, of course, Hag 1/Sorcerer 3/Hag+5/Prestige Class X is the obvious build to lose the LA posthaste. Or a similar use of charisma-based casting, flavor to taste or whatever.

Again, I see no reason to not play a hag (unless I find casting disguise self all the time to be too painful) with this build. Full casting progression and full BAB is good even without +6 STR and +4 CHA, natural armor better than full-plate, 2 good saves, useful spell-likes (as opposed to speak with burrowing animals 1/day), etc.

[LordErebus12]

Savage Species, p.152: "A monster character may not multiclass until it completes the full progression in its monster class."

I'm not trying to use this as a cop-out, because I do want to get this right with your help, but isn't Savage Species a 3.0 book? Hell, its often not even allowed in some 3.5 games because of its status as 3.0.

I was not aware that it had to progress the full length of the racial class, as per 3.0 rules. I've never used it like that, I've always gave it as an option rather than a mandatory requirement and all games i've played in did not use that rule. That way someone could play a ECL 2 hag (with one class level and LA +1) if they wanted to.


Also, why give them -2 CHA to start then give them +2 CHA at level 1? Seems unnecessary. If your argument is that someone can skip the racial class, ask yourself, who would play a green hag with this racial class on the table and not take it? What builds would be better for ignoring that option?

Mainly from a flavor stand point. I don't feel that they would particularly charismatic to begin with, that comes with progressing as its race. I've never required them to start/finish the racial class if they did not want to. It was meant to be an option.

Also, Green Hags are normally different from what I made here (No LA and 9 monstrous humanoid levels, rather than 6 levels offered as a choice and a LA +1). I'm trying to create a version that could be included with my campaign setting that would be more playable at a lower level, which is why I give the racial class as a optional class, rather than mandatory requirement.


LA buy-off doesn't count racial HD towards the count. So a player would have +1 LA until (6 HD + 3 Class Levels) ECL 10 if you don't allow multiclassing.

If you allow multiclassing, of course, Hag 1/Sorcerer 3/Hag+5/Prestige Class X is the obvious build to lose the LA posthaste. Or a similar use of charisma-based casting, flavor to taste or whatever.

Again, I see no reason to not play a hag (unless I find casting disguise self all the time to be too painful) with this build. Full casting progression and full BAB is good even without +6 STR and +4 CHA, natural armor better than full-plate, 2 good saves, useful spell-likes (as opposed to speak with burrowing animals 1/day), etc.

okay, suggestions?

[bekeleven]

You can make the class not strictly optimal by doing anything towards not progressing full casting. Either give it on certain levels only, or do it with hit dice and give some LA levels.

It's not just sorcerers that would mind 6 levels of casting with a full BAB, 8 HD and 9 Natural armor, after all. This is a good choice even for a wizard. I mean, I love the human's feat, and I love the int bump from grey elves or lesser planetouched X, but +12 to non-int stats and natural full-plate plus full BAB and extra skills is still a pretty good argument.

And also: It's not necessarily "the rule" that 3.0 monster classes were required; Savage Species is the only example. I was just using it as an example that both mechanics were in play. And since it was one of the last 3.0 books and never received an update, it's technically 3.5 legal.

[Just to Browse]

The savage species rule is terrible and I hate it, and it should be ignored the way tracking ammunition is ignored.

Also, fullcasting + other things is strictly better than fullcasting, so this is overpowered.

Green Hags are pretty weak. They have low HP, so they need to use hit-and-run tactics. Their basic combat choice is invis -> strength-damaging attack -> repeat. This takes 2 rounds to set up, requires a fort save, and leaves the hag open to getting shanked repeatedly. So, before even statting up the creature, I present to you the following things to be considered:

The green hag is not dangerous solo unless played intelligently in its environment. Even on the off-chance that it takes out a PC with an average of 5 Str damage / 2 rounds, the PCs will blow through its 50 HP in a round or two.
Players are not going to get to choose their environment. Playing a green hag without the ability to draw enemies (because you're storming a castle) or plan ambushes regularly means most of an 'adventuring' green hag's tricks are useless. You would do better as a level 6 rogue.
Looking at your current set-up, do you really want to design a green hag, or do you just want to make a generic hag with strong casting and big strength?

Your current class seems to give the green hag weak SLAs (not even invisibility), and in compensation, loads it with fullcasting and to balance that, forces charisma to scale awkwardly. That overpowers the class, makes the advancement curve wonky, and sort of obfuscates the core problem of the green hag (its monster abilities are bad for adventurers).

I honestly suggest a redesign, giving the hag class its important PC power (str-damage touch attack and invis) that scale, and getting rid of (or making unimportant) the thematic abilities like pass without trace. The class could be all of 3-4 levels long.

EDIT: I'd do something like...

small HP, high BAB, 2 good saves
1. +2 Str, 1d4+1 Str drain (no stacking). You use your claw attacks to deal damage, and the strength drain is a debuff for bad guys.
2. +2 Cha, natArmor, so now you're tanking better
3. Invis 3/day, which makes hit-and-run possible, but only once per encounter (approximately).
4. 2d4 Str drain (now scales to 1d4 + 1d4/4HD, still no stacking). Your debuff becomes big enough to actually affect enormous monsters, and at higher levels you can do awesome peasant-melting attacks eventually.
5. Invis at-will and becomes greater at 10HD, so you can reliably dodge around if you have to. Eventually you can perma-invis as a "you msut be this tall to fight me" barrier.

[RedWarlock]

It's actually still required in 3.5, since those functional rules were reprinted for any uses of monster classes, like in the Races of.. books.


MONSTER CLASSES
Several of the races described here use the monster class rules detailed in Savage Species. The centaur monster class presented in this chapter was first detailed in that book. It is not necessary that you have Savage Species in order to use these classes. Monster classes work just like other classes, with the following exceptions:
• When using monster classes to create a character, you can ignore level adjustment. This is replaced by the character’s monster class level. (The level adjustment is, in effect, built into the monster class’s level progression.)
• The only way to take a level of a monster class is to be that monster. A centaur cannot multiclass as a gnoll, nor can a human fighter multiclass to take levels as a centaur. She must begin taking levels in the monster class at 1st level.
• Monster classes do not grant a character skill points or Hit Dice at every level, nor do they grant a feat every three levels. When a level grants skill points, a Hit Die, or a feat, the gain is noted on the class table.
• Each monster class has a CR (Challenge Rating) entry. This has no meaning for players or PCs and is given only as an aid to DMs who want to adjust monster CRs by regressing existing creatures.
• A monster character using a monster class cannot multi- class until she completes the full progression in her monster class. This rule keeps characters from gaining the benefits of a monster’s type and then quickly switching to a standard class. However, a DM may explicitly waive this rule (officially declaring a variant ruling) if he desires a slightly higher-powered campaign.
• A monster class does not impose an experience penalty for multiclassing, as other classes do.

[LordErebus12]

EDIT: I'd do something like...

small HP, high BAB, 2 good saves
1. +2 Str, 1d4+1 Str drain (no stacking). You use your claw attacks to deal damage, and the strength drain is a debuff for bad guys.
2. +2 Cha, natArmor, so now you're tanking better
3. Invis 3/day, which makes hit-and-run possible, but only once per encounter (approximately).
4. 2d4 Str drain (now scales to 1d4 + 1d4/4HD, still no stacking). Your debuff becomes big enough to actually affect enormous monsters, and at higher levels you can do awesome peasant-melting attacks eventually.
5. Invis at-will and becomes greater at 10HD, so you can reliably dodge around if you have to. Eventually you can perma-invis as a "you msut be this tall to fight me" barrier.

Invisibility can be picked up easily through casting, it doesn't need to be innate. Kind of puts it over the top, imo.

I ALWAYS base the class off of the Type, so since its monstrous humanoid, it gets:

8-sided Hit Dice.
Base attack bonus equal to total Hit Dice (as fighter).
Good Reflex and Will saves.
Skill points equal to (2 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die, with quadruple skill points for the first Hit Die.
Traits
A monstrous humanoid possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry).
Darkvision out to 60 feet.
Proficient with all simple weapons and any weapons mentioned in its entry.
Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) it is described as wearing, as well as all lighter types. Monstrous humanoids not indicated as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Monstrous humanoids are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor.
Monstrous humanoids eat, sleep, and breathe.

Without exception...

[LordErebus12]

nerfed the natural armor to +2, +4, +6.

[Just to Browse]

But the green hag is not a fullcaster of any flavor that might maybe pick up invisibility. The green hag is a monster that exists to set up invisible ambushes and steal strength. Designing a monster without str drain and invis and instead giving it full casting means you aren't making a green hag. It's like writing a monstrous humanoid without giving it good reflex.

You have three problems.
1. The current class is ridiculously OP.
2. The current class is not a green hag.
3. The green hag falls off hard at higher levels, even with all its abilities (like most quasi-caster monsters), so even if you fix #2 you need to add things.

[LordErebus12]

But the green hag is not a fullcaster of any flavor that might maybe pick up invisibility. The green hag is a monster that exists to set up invisible ambushes and steal strength. Designing a monster without str drain and invis and instead giving it full casting means you aren't making a green hag. It's like writing a monstrous humanoid without giving it good reflex.

You have three problems.
1. The current class is ridiculously OP.
2. The current class is not a green hag.
3. The green hag falls off hard at higher levels, even with all its abilities (like most quasi-caster monsters), so even if you fix #2 you need to add things.

okay, so its conceptually built off of the green hag, and now has stepped away from it. Since this is for my campaign setting, I am not going to use the core Green Hag or any other version of it within the setting. Its meant to be an actual race to be played as a standard race, with or without the monstrous class.

[Just to Browse]

Then I wouldn't call it a green hag.

Otherwise, your only problem is that this is a full caster with full BAB and bonus defenses with weird Cha scaling.

EDIT: Awesome name is changed. You've got one problem left.

[LordErebus12]

what say you now?

[Just to Browse]

Full casting, full BAB. OP.

The race feels like more LA +0 right now.

[LordErebus12]

now they only add half their racial levels to the progression.

[bekeleven]

I ALWAYS base the class off of the Type, so since its monstrous humanoid, it gets:
[...]
Skill points equal to (2 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die, with quadruple skill points for the first Hit Die.
[...]
Without exception...

:smallconfused:

[LordErebus12]

:smallconfused:

whats confusing?

[bekeleven]

whats confusing?

1. You didn't balk when I said "extra skills" as a perk for a spellcaster taking hag levels.

2. You edited the top post 1 minute before making this one.

[LordErebus12]

1. You didn't balk when I said "extra skills" as a perk for a spellcaster taking hag levels.

2. You edited the top post 1 minute before making this one.

yeah, I noticed I had the skill points off on the race, if it was based off monstrous humanoid. I was 4+int, now its where it should be, at 2+int