D&D3.5 Salvaging my cleric

[Alberic Strein]

Well, as it happens, it IS possible to mess up a cleric.

Yeah... Did not believe it myself until the last game I played. I would like to underline the fact that I'm a beginner as far as D&D is concerned, I only built one cleric and it was my third game as one.

The situation :

We were 4 players, all lvl5, a wizard, a rogue, a (new) fighter, and a cleric (me).

For the single day of adventure we had, I rolled with
lvl1 : Protection versus chaos (domain) / Sanctuary / Lesser vigor / Obscuring mist / (left blank) /
lvl2 : Calm emotions (domain) / Spiritual weapon / Bear endurance / (left blank) /
lvl3 : Dispel Magic (domain / Blindness / (left blank) /

for spells. On the spot, it seemed like an average pick. Nothing great, not many terribly weak spells, and enough blanks to fill the possible specific needs we could have had.

As you can guess, things proceded to get real wrong, real fast.

We had to attack an enemy stronghold. Some NPC of ours captured one of their look-outs, we proceeded to interrogate him. Problem : He was under a spell which prevented him to reveal any information to his enemies.

Hey, that calls for some dispel magic, no ? Well, yes, unless i get a terrible roll. First third level spell used to no avail. So I ask, innocently if he swore a life-long oath to his god/dess. Yep. So we kill him, freeing him of his oath, and then I prepare and cast "speak with dead". I found that particularly ingenious. But, besides what the text for the spell said, we ended up calling the soul of the dead guy, who, while he had failed his will roll, STILL fed us some useless answers, before reanimating itself as a zombie. I don't mind cryptic answers, but succeeding in my attempt to get the prize "nice job, now get this load of bull and one more enemy for your troubles" is getting a LITTLE FAR. Second third level spell used to no avail.

I decide to stock my third spell, blindness, in my magic mace. Not the best choice ever, but I figured that it allowed me to get some action economy, this way, even if the spell failed, I would still have the damage to console myself with. No more third level spells.

I ended up using it against the boss, which I had bad odds of hitting, so I merely touched him to trigger the spell, as it was tearing us apart. The DAMN SPELL BOUNCED BACK and I had to save against blindness ! Luckily, I made the save.

We fought ninjas, so Obscuring Mist was NOT the best tactical choice. We met, as I expected, NPCs, prisoners, on which calm emotions would have been good, to calm their terrible fear of impending doom... Except they were hagard, so the spell was freaking useless. Lesser vigor served me well. Spiritual weapon damaged (a bit) the boss, since +7 to hit meant my odds of hitting it were very bad (and I had to cheese a bit for the damage, instead of my divinity's weapon, I called the sword of truth, the manifestation of good, which, after some very short arguing with my DM was given some "good" typed damage, even though by RAW it doesn't). I had no room to cast bear endurance or the other lvl2 spell left blank. Sanctuary was also no good : I had to tank alongside the warrior, so it was not tactically viable.

So yeah, most of the game was spent with me using law devotion defensively for some +3 CA and blocking as many enemies as I could (which was not much : NINJAS !) Without the effect, my 22CA meant I was struck rather often, and my 38 hp was not enough to survive more than 2/3 hits (or only one from the boss)

So, here is my character info, please tell me what I can do to fail less next game ^^

Male Human Cleric 5
Lawful Neutral
Apostate of Anubis
Representing Alberic Strein
Strength 14(+2)
Dexterity 10(+0)
Constitution 14(+2)
Intelligence 10(+0)
Wisdom 17(+3) (19 with +2 amulet)
Charisma 14(+2)
Size:Medium
Height:6' 8"
Weight:180 lb
Eyes:Hazel
Hair:White
Skin:Pale
Domains: Law Magic
Energy: Positive [Healing / Turns Undead]
Total Hit Points: 38
Speed: 20 feet
Armor Class: 22 = 10 + 8 [full plate] + 2 [Buckler+1] +1 [Special item evasion] +1 [armor bracers]
Touch AC: 10
Flat-footed: 20
Initiative modifier:
+ 0
= + 0 [dexterity]
Fortitude save: + 6= 4 [base] + 2 [constitution]
Reflex save: + 1= 1 [base]
Will save: + 7= 4 [base] + 3 [wisdom]
Attack (handheld): + 5= 3 [base] + 2 [strength]
Attack (missile): + 3= 3 [base]
Grapple check: + 5= 3 [base] + 2 [strength]

Feats :
Power Attack
Law Devotion
Extend Spell

*

So, i have to do my level up for lvl 6, I am planning to take one more cleric level, then go Bone Knight, which should strenghten my offensive and defensive options, I don't know if, once i reach level 11, I should take one level in Contemplative PrC, to get the war domain. Not for itself, since Anubis' favored weapon is... Terrible... But for the holy warrior feat. +X to damage as long as I don't use one of my domain spells seems pretty sweet... But it would be quite the investment, is it worth it ? For the lvl6 feat, nothing really catches my eye, so maybe I could go with zen archery, to complete my repertoire of tricks... And also, by level 8 I could be a freaking mangudai in bone armor working for the egyptian god of Death... Can't say it doesn't appeal to me xD

Thank you in advance ^^

[Toliudar]

Mechanically, the build seems fine.

Sure, there are a couple of spell selections that are fairly suboptimal, but mostly, things seem to have unfolded in a not-that-unusual way. Dispel Magic is both a very useful spell and a crapshoot. Lots of DM's have either given their boss bad guys real and specific defenses against attack forms, or handwave the same in the moment. You've just experienced that. Combined with the "under a spell which prevented him to reveal any information to his enemies" thing, and it suggests that your DM is very comfortable with making stuff up to keep their plot on track.

I would NOT recommend zen archery. Sure it gives you a +4 to ranged attack rolls, but your ranged attacks will start to suck more and more in comparison to other options you have open to you. Archery is hard to make work in 3.5, and requires a larger investment in gear and feats than you'll want to make. Consider Persistent Spell (to build towards getting Divine Metamagic: Persistent at level 9), another devotion feat (Animal and Travel are favourites, and could easily be refluffed for Anubis) or even Extra Turning, since you seem to like using Law Devotion a lot.

[Lanson]

Sounds a lot like your DM doesnt know how the spells you were using worked...
I mean, your mace storing blindness would turn it into a touch spell, and http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/spellTurning.htm Spell turning, can't reflect touch spells back at you.

Speak with dead http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/speakWithDead.htm does NOT allow the body to come back as a zombie, you merely get to talk with the spirit through the body.

More than likely, though, your DM was just forcing you to stay "on track," like Toliudar said. Your build seems fine enough, just some bad luck and some shady interpretations of your speak with dead spell, and misuse of a spell turning like-ability. I can't think of any spell or armor that allows touch spells to be reflected.

Edit: Spell storing weapons do not make the spells touch spells, so disregard that.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Problem : He was under a spell which prevented him to reveal any information to his enemies.

Hey, that calls for some dispel magic, no ? Well, yes, unless i get a terrible roll. First third level spell used to no avail.
Bad luck happens.


besides what the text for the spell said, we ended up calling the soul of the dead guy, who, while he had failed his will roll, STILL fed us some useless answers, before reanimating itself as a zombie
Yeah, that's the DM not allowing a clever solution to work. Nothing wrong on your end.


I ended up using it against the boss, which I had bad odds of hitting, so I merely touched him to trigger the spell, as it was tearing us apart. The DAMN SPELL BOUNCED BACK and I had to save against blindness ! Luckily, I made the save.
Either bad luck (if it was a pre-specified defense of some sort) or more DM fiat. Again, not really on you.


We fought ninjas, so Obscuring Mist was NOT the best tactical choice. We met, as I expected, NPCs, prisoners, on which calm emotions would have been good, to calm their terrible fear of impending doom... Except they were hagard, so the spell was freaking useless. Lesser vigor served me well. Spiritual weapon damaged (a bit) the boss, since +7 to hit meant my odds of hitting it were very bad (and I had to cheese a bit for the damage, instead of my divinity's weapon, I called the sword of truth, the manifestation of good, which, after some very short arguing with my DM was given some "good" typed damage, even though by RAW it doesn't). I had no room to cast bear endurance or the other lvl2 spell left blank. Sanctuary was also no good : I had to tank alongside the warrior, so it was not tactically viable.
Eh. Spiritual Weapon is an iffy spell, I find; the other issues are the kind of things that just come up when you're a prepared caster.

I think you're fine, you just had some bad luck, and/or a DM who didn't like what you were doing. Talk to him about how he wants to handle divinations and stuff?

[Vin Robinson]

Another thing to keep in mind is you have to know your DM, and they are usually a great resource for what spells you should prepare. It seems like a few of your spells, Speak with Dead and Blindness, he changed the way they worked just to mess with you or because he didn't want to deal with them.

I would talk to him and about the session, most DM's love constructive feedback(I know I do.) and you can also take the opportunity to ask for his advice. He could also just say "Yeah, I'm not prepared to deal with Speak with Dead, it kind of ruins what I have planned" then at least you haven't wasted the spell slot.

A lot of safe choices are ones that buff the party or deal direct damage.
Here is a sample of spells you could prepare that fit these criteria.

1 - Bless - Not a big bonus, but effects the whole party.
1 - Faith Healing - Great bang for your buck, and you can constantly wheedle your party members into worshiping your god.
1 - Omen of Peril - Can be fun, and lets your DM be ominous.
1 - Shield of Faith OR Divine Power - Scaling bonuses to your attack or defense.
1 - (Domain) - Magic Aura - You have to be creative with this one, but I like it.
1 - (Domain) - Protection from Chaos - Useful when it applies.

2 - Spiritual Weapon - Free attacks, a really great spell. You can use this to feel like your are contributing to damage even when you are stuck healing for a round.
2 - Darkbolt - 1D8 Damage per two caster levels, ranged touch attack, half is cold half is untyped, and save or be stunned for a round. A very excellent, reliable ranged damage spell, with some CC mixed in.
2 - Shield Other - Great duration, and while your 38hp can't take a ton of punishment, it is still easier to heal yourself in an emergency rather then have to run around to someone else. Great on a squishy back-line character.
2 - (Domain) - Identify - Hey, you will always have this when you need it.
2 - (Domain) - Calm Emotions - I have never personally used this. It may be more useful as a roleplaying aid than anything.

3 - Girallon's Blessing - Extra pair or arms, great buff for any melee character, including yourself. Lasts 10 mins/level.
3 - Mass Lesser Vigor - Healing for the whole party, steadily topping them off. I absolutely adore this spell.
3 - (Domain) Dispell Magic - Obviously useful, even if your DM is being a butt.
3 - (Domain) Magic Circle Against Chaos - A good buff in the right situation.

[Alberic Strein]

Thanks for the quick answers !

@Toliudar : If I dig Law devotion ? You bet ! Nothing says "your deity got your back" like streams of sand swirling around you, forming an Ankh behind your back and giving a relocatable +3 to CA or attack. Also, since my modifier to hit is quite low (+6 with magic weapon) it's my only option to have some half decent odds to hit. Thanks a lot for the feat suggestions ! Do you mind if I voice some of the things that trouble me with it ? Your point on Zen Archery is duly noted, thanks a lot ! However, I am really unsure about getting persistent spell so soon. The thing is, it would mean i don't get to see a use for it until, at best, lvl9, when I get divine metamagic, and that's if I found an item granting +4 charisma. And it takes all my ressources for this one, albeit damn powerful, trick. I can see it paying really well on the long run, but investing a feat for a benefit I won't see before at least, at the very very least three levels irks me a bit. Don't get me wrong, I am DEFINITELY getting that, but maybe with levels 9-12, or 12-15. Extra turning seems very nice with my use of Law Devotion, indeed. Would DMM coupled with Extend Spell be any good ? Sure, It means I am getting DMM for Persistent spell later, maybe way later if I use extra turning, but in the meanwhile the effects, instantaneous and coupling quite well with my law devotion use, could be pretty sweet... Or am I missing something ?

@Lanson : That situation was also me being quite an idiot. I already saw a magic missile being reflected, but since my spiritual weapon worked, I thought that either the creature had defences against profane magic, or against ray spells. So I went ahead with a save-or-suck spell at point blank range. As you noted though, it didn't change the nature of the spell, so I ended up "pissing against the wind" as they say. On top of that, the creature had some SR. An AoE spell would have worked, though... That's it, I'm not going out without preparing a Divine Storm spell !

@Grod_The_Giant : Thanks, I'll talk to him about the whole divination thingie. I can quite understand how a single spell can ruin a whole scenario and how horrendously terrible it can be for DMs. But mainly, I think the whole "speak with dead" fiasco was him adding some fluff, trying to get some tension into the whole thing, and the consequence of my poor explanation. The NPC we interrogated was some devout from an evil deity, so I think my DM went with "Hey, his soul belongs to his god in death so that spell can't work". Which is quite logical, and it's my fault I couldn't explain clearly to him that I was NOT summoning the dead guy's soul, only insuffling a semblance of life into a dead body and having it divulge the information. Like someone picking a diary of someone else and reading two sentences aloud. Also, like I said to Lanson, I was aware of the whole "bouncing spells" thingie on the boss, I was just being stupid and thinking that it applied only to damage spells, or profane magic, and such.

@Vin Robinson : Thanks for the tip on spells ! And yeah, I'll ask my GM, thanks ^^

Anyway, thanks for the support ^^

And what do you think of that 11th dip into Contemplative to get the war domain and, maybe at twelth level, the Holy Warrior feat ? Worth it ? Yes in general but I already wasted enough feats ?

[Alberic Strein]

Sorry for the double post, but on the subject of spells, what spell should I charge my mace with ?

[Ortesk]

Well, as it happens, it IS possible to mess up a cleric.

Yeah... Did not believe it myself until the last game I played. I would like to underline the fact that I'm a beginner as far as D&D is concerned, I only built one cleric and it was my third game as one.

The situation :

We were 4 players, all lvl5, a wizard, a rogue, a (new) fighter, and a cleric (me).

For the single day of adventure we had, I rolled with
lvl1 : Protection versus chaos (domain) / Sanctuary / Lesser vigor / Obscuring mist / (left blank) /
lvl2 : Calm emotions (domain) / Spiritual weapon / Bear endurance / (left blank) /
lvl3 : Dispel Magic (domain / Blindness / (left blank) /

for spells. On the spot, it seemed like an average pick. Nothing great, not many terribly weak spells, and enough blanks to fill the possible specific needs we could have had.

As you can guess, things proceded to get real wrong, real fast.

We had to attack an enemy stronghold. Some NPC of ours captured one of their look-outs, we proceeded to interrogate him. Problem : He was under a spell which prevented him to reveal any information to his enemies.

Hey, that calls for some dispel magic, no ? Well, yes, unless i get a terrible roll. First third level spell used to no avail. So I ask, innocently if he swore a life-long oath to his god/dess. Yep. So we kill him, freeing him of his oath, and then I prepare and cast "speak with dead". I found that particularly ingenious. But, besides what the text for the spell said, we ended up calling the soul of the dead guy, who, while he had failed his will roll, STILL fed us some useless answers, before reanimating itself as a zombie. I don't mind cryptic answers, but succeeding in my attempt to get the prize "nice job, now get this load of bull and one more enemy for your troubles" is getting a LITTLE FAR. Second third level spell used to no avail.

I decide to stock my third spell, blindness, in my magic mace. Not the best choice ever, but I figured that it allowed me to get some action economy, this way, even if the spell failed, I would still have the damage to console myself with. No more third level spells.

I ended up using it against the boss, which I had bad odds of hitting, so I merely touched him to trigger the spell, as it was tearing us apart. The DAMN SPELL BOUNCED BACK and I had to save against blindness ! Luckily, I made the save.

We fought ninjas, so Obscuring Mist was NOT the best tactical choice. We met, as I expected, NPCs, prisoners, on which calm emotions would have been good, to calm their terrible fear of impending doom... Except they were hagard, so the spell was freaking useless. Lesser vigor served me well. Spiritual weapon damaged (a bit) the boss, since +7 to hit meant my odds of hitting it were very bad (and I had to cheese a bit for the damage, instead of my divinity's weapon, I called the sword of truth, the manifestation of good, which, after some very short arguing with my DM was given some "good" typed damage, even though by RAW it doesn't). I had no room to cast bear endurance or the other lvl2 spell left blank. Sanctuary was also no good : I had to tank alongside the warrior, so it was not tactically viable.

So yeah, most of the game was spent with me using law devotion defensively for some +3 CA and blocking as many enemies as I could (which was not much : NINJAS !) Without the effect, my 22CA meant I was struck rather often, and my 38 hp was not enough to survive more than 2/3 hits (or only one from the boss)

So, here is my character info, please tell me what I can do to fail less next game ^^

Male Human Cleric 5
Lawful Neutral
Apostate of Anubis
Representing Alberic Strein
Strength 14(+2)
Dexterity 10(+0)
Constitution 14(+2)
Intelligence 10(+0)
Wisdom 17(+3) (19 with +2 amulet)
Charisma 14(+2)
Size:Medium
Height:6' 8"
Weight:180 lb
Eyes:Hazel
Hair:White
Skin:Pale
Domains: Law Magic
Energy: Positive [Healing / Turns Undead]
Total Hit Points: 38
Speed: 20 feet
Armor Class: 22 = 10 + 8 [full plate] + 2 [Buckler+1] +1 [Special item evasion] +1 [armor bracers]
Touch AC: 10
Flat-footed: 20
Initiative modifier:
+ 0
= + 0 [dexterity]
Fortitude save: + 6= 4 [base] + 2 [constitution]
Reflex save: + 1= 1 [base]
Will save: + 7= 4 [base] + 3 [wisdom]
Attack (handheld): + 5= 3 [base] + 2 [strength]
Attack (missile): + 3= 3 [base]
Grapple check: + 5= 3 [base] + 2 [strength]

Feats :
Power Attack
Law Devotion
Extend Spell

*

So, i have to do my level up for lvl 6, I am planning to take one more cleric level, then go Bone Knight, which should strenghten my offensive and defensive options, I don't know if, once i reach level 11, I should take one level in Contemplative PrC, to get the war domain. Not for itself, since Anubis' favored weapon is... Terrible... But for the holy warrior feat. +X to damage as long as I don't use one of my domain spells seems pretty sweet... But it would be quite the investment, is it worth it ? For the lvl6 feat, nothing really catches my eye, so maybe I could go with zen archery, to complete my repertoire of tricks... And also, by level 8 I could be a freaking mangudai in bone armor working for the egyptian god of Death... Can't say it doesn't appeal to me xD

Thank you in advance ^^

Build looks fine, as was said before it was really DM didnt want everything being easy on ya, you did good in the situation. One thing to consider, soon you start getting really awesome spells so dont worry about to many feats for damage. i would get extend spell and DMM myself, utilize righteous might and divine power when you get them, and make them last all day if dm lets night sticks stack. hurting a baddy wont be an issue then. just dont over do it or get flaming bards tossed at you

[Mystral]

For the single day of adventure we had, I rolled with
lvl1 : Protection versus chaos (domain) / Sanctuary / Lesser vigor / Obscuring mist / (left blank) /
lvl2 : Calm emotions (domain) / Spiritual weapon / Bear endurance / (left blank) /
lvl3 : Dispel Magic (domain / Blindness / (left blank) /

A cleric does not leave spell slots blank. He can't prepare them on the fly like a wizard does, but gets them at one time during the day, when he prays. So that's your first mistake.


We had to attack an enemy stronghold. Some NPC of ours captured one of their look-outs, we proceeded to interrogate him. Problem : He was under a spell which prevented him to reveal any information to his enemies.

Hey, that calls for some dispel magic, no ? Well, yes, unless i get a terrible roll. First third level spell used to no avail. So I ask, innocently if he swore a life-long oath to his god/dess. Yep. So we kill him, freeing him of his oath, and then I prepare and cast "speak with dead". I found that particularly ingenious. But, besides what the text for the spell said, we ended up calling the soul of the dead guy, who, while he had failed his will roll, STILL fed us some useless answers, before reanimating itself as a zombie. I don't mind cryptic answers, but succeeding in my attempt to get the prize "nice job, now get this load of bull and one more enemy for your troubles" is getting a LITTLE FAR. Second third level spell used to no avail.

Sounds like DM Fiat and a bad roll. Nothing you can do against the latter, and the former is just a bit douchebaggy.


I decide to stock my third spell, blindness, in my magic mace. Not the best choice ever, but I figured that it allowed me to get some action economy, this way, even if the spell failed, I would still have the damage to console myself with. No more third level spells.

I ended up using it against the boss, which I had bad odds of hitting, so I merely touched him to trigger the spell, as it was tearing us apart. The DAMN SPELL BOUNCED BACK and I had to save against blindness ! Luckily, I made the save.

The spell did what? How? Sounds like DM Fiat again.


We fought ninjas, so Obscuring Mist was NOT the best tactical choice. We met, as I expected, NPCs, prisoners, on which calm emotions would have been good, to calm their terrible fear of impending doom... Except they were hagard, so the spell was freaking useless. Lesser vigor served me well. Spiritual weapon damaged (a bit) the boss, since +7 to hit meant my odds of hitting it were very bad (and I had to cheese a bit for the damage, instead of my divinity's weapon, I called the sword of truth, the manifestation of good, which, after some very short arguing with my DM was given some "good" typed damage, even though by RAW it doesn't).

I'm guessing the arguing was because the boss had damage reduction x/good, yes?

Spiritual Weapon does force damage, not weapon damage, so it bypasses any kind of damage reduction.


So, here is my character info, please tell me what I can do to fail less next game ^^

The problem with your character is not your character, but your GM. Talk with him and tell him that his deliberately screwing everything up you try hurts your fun during the game.

[Mystral]

Sorry for the double post, but on the subject of spells, what spell should I charge my mace with ?

The classical options are Inflict Serious Wounds and Bestow Curse.

[Alberic Strein]

@Ortesk : Flaming bards are always a risk :smallbiggrin: But yeah, I'm getting DMM : Extend for the level 6 while multi-classing Fighter to get into Bone Knight next level, so the big spells will have to wait a bit, but once I get them Ooooh boy !

@Mystral : Thanks for the advice ! For the "leaving spell slots empty and filling them in 15 minutes" thingie, my rules-fu is severly lacking, and my book are at my brother's, so could you check this info I found ?

"From the Core Rulebook under Divine spells in Chapter 9: When preparing spells for the day, a cleric can leave some of her spell slots open. Later during that day, she can repeat the preparation process as often as she likes. During these extra sessions of preparation, she can fill these unused spell slots ... Like the first session of the day, this preparation takes at least 15 minutes, and it takes longer if she prepares more than one-quarter of his spells."

I wouldn't mind either way, but at least we'll be sure xD

For the spell storing, I went with serious wounds last time, but hey, undead as a last BBEG :smallannoyed: And I am not sure if my GM will allow necrotic damage to work on evil outsiders... Bestow Curse is Touch range so he probably wont bounce it in my face, thanks ! :smallamused: Some personal, or more... Unconventional choices ? Just in case we get a reveal "Hey, the BBEG this time is immune to curses and other necromancy/evil/conventional disability spells !"

:smallmad: