[3.P] What's the role of the Witch and some other questions

[Feint's End]

So I'm going to participate in a campaign shortly and I decided to go with a withc (partially reflavoured to using an ancient Couatl battle magic which uses control over the enemy bodys). I was just wondering what you guys think witches are best in. I think about battlefieldcontrol and debuffing (As I look on curses).

I play a halfling and my first level feat is Eschew Materials (flavour choice). My first hex is flight (I love infinite feather fall and the level 5 cap is not bad either).

The rest of the group (what I know thus far):
Warblade (using twohanded weapon I bet)
Cleric (pretty much out of the book ... 3.5 though)
Bard (nothing special here)
??? (maybe gonna be some sort of skillmonkey)

I have to add though that I am by far the most experienced player and that the general group is more low to mid op so I can do a lot of suboptimal choices (take that into consideration)

Backstory is a halfling raised by a exiled couatl apart from any civilization. I asked my dm to get acrobatics and climb (and probably swim) to make the character a nimble persona who likes to climb and jump around in the mountains he grew up (also infinite feather fall). I also took the trait to get 30 feet movement rate to further follow this flavour.

Oh and stats are
str 11
dex 16
con 16
int 18
wis 9
cha 15

I appreciate suggestions and also some help in understanding my role

[graeylin]

I've been playing a witch a bit lately, and enjoying the class.

First, their role is "maker of more work for the DM".

Second, only you know your DM's style, likelihood of falling, etc., but I wouldn't take flight at first level (or, eschew material components either). Do you plan to fall a lot in the first couple games/adventures? I don't come across that particular hazard a lot, but I do come across combat all the time, and having extra hexes is amazing.

Misfortune, slumber, fortune are all top notch hexes, and should be in your repetoire ASAP. Making the BBEG roll twice and take the worst EVERY SINGLE TIME cannot be overstated as nearly the best feature ever, especially at low levels. Sure, timestop and shapechange are more powerful, but at first to fifth level, making the bad guys suck at hitting your party? Really suck? Priceless. The witch with misfortune is truly "the scarlet witch" from the old marvel comics: altering chances, causing chaos.

Slumber is powerful, misfortune just amazing. Stand in the back, out of harm's way whenever possible, and sling misfortune around all day long. Cackle a lot to keep everything going, and five foot step to stay out of trouble. Every time your BBEG rolls a 19 or 20 to hit the fighter, and also rolls a 7, your BSF can turn and thank you for the hex. Trust me, if every roll has to be done twice, you just altered the game already.

I played three encounters with a group, misfortuned every thing I could, and it drove the DM bonkers, because plan A was blown, then plan B, C, D, and even E... when you have to roll twice and take the worst, it's hard for his team to do what they wanted to effectively.

also, check out the witch's handbook, and the scar hex, to further your range and ability to cause chaos.

To me, it's a great, fun class, that allows me to support the team without being the team leader/first in combat. I can stand back, do my thing, and let the others shine, knowing that a bit of that shine is my doing.

[Psyren]

Witches are primarily controllers and debuffers, with secondary roles of summoning, healing and buffing. They're not as powerful as a wizard but do bring some utility to the table in the form of their scaling hexes and ability to heal. With a Bard and Cleric in the party though you won't need to worry about the healing side of things as much, so focus on making the enemy blind, deaf, dumb, asleep and standing on their heads for the Warblade and Skillmonkey to finish off.

[Andvare]

Yeah, having a Witch on your team, is like having the enemy hit with Pugwampi's Cruse, and a sleep effect that works on all creatures, which DC scale? Yes please! And you get arcane spell on top.
Those arcane spells are mostly control spells, and they are often the best ones. Not as good a spell list as the Wizard, but still very good, and it has a lot of Remove X in it as well, and based off int, which I love.

Oh, and the Witch can get Timestop or Shapechange, infact they are quite common high level patron spells. ;)

It is mostly a support class, but what a support class!

Edit: There's also one of the strongest archetypes for the Witch, ine that makes the Witch the most SAD of all the Paizo classes, the Scarred Witch Doctor. What do you need for this class? Con, and nothing else.

[Psyren]

Edit: There's also one of the strongest archetypes for the Witch, ine that makes the Witch the most MAD of all the Paizo classes, the Scarred Witch Doctor. What do you need for this class? Con, and nothing else.

I think you mean SAD here

[Andvare]

I think you mean SAD here

Yeah, of course, fixed.

[graeylin]

I haven't played one, but a half-orc scarred witch doctor is supposed to be pretty sweet.

[Psyren]

I haven't played one, but a half-orc scarred witch doctor is supposed to be pretty sweet.

You need to be a full orc* actually (they don't have LA in PF.)

*Barring Racial Heritage?

[Feint's End]

all fantastic suggestions so far. Thank you and I'll definitely take it into consideration (to everybody graelyn, Psyren and Andvare that is). Also I haven't picked an Patron yet. So what you guys recommend for the flavour I'm going for?

Also if you wouldn't take eschew materials (I already said it would be totally fine powerwise) what would you go for? I actually planned on taking misfortune on level 2 though I think it really hits the spot on level 8 and 16 (for the longer duration).

[Psyren]

Accursed Hex would be my choice for 1st-level feat. If you start with 16-20 Int, very few monsters will be able to resist two applications of your hex.

Patrons work like Domains - you want one that has spells you can't normally get. Deception is one of my favorites for the invisibility stuff, and Spirits is nice for that too. Occult and Plague help you deal with undead, which is a creature type that commonly gives Witches fits. Shadow and Time are good choices overall as well.

[Feint's End]

Patrons work like Domains - you want one that has spells you can't normally get. Deception is one of my favorites for the invisibility stuff, and Spirits is nice for that too. Occult and Plague help you deal with undead, which is a creature type that commonly gives Witches fits. Shadow and Time are good choices overall as well.

Hmm I'm thinking about Accursed Hex. Very tempting. Problem is I don't have Ultimate Magic (yet) and I'd like to keep to the books I have.

Yes Deception is one of my favourites. Not just for invisitbility but more for Confusion (one of my favourite spells out there) and other very awesome spells. But I also thought about Elements (cool spell selection) or Shadow (a lot of versatility). Deception would fit flavourwise thought.

edit: I should mention that we play by 3.5 rules and if a spell exists in both versions the 3.5 version overwrites the PF version.

[Psyren]

Ghk... why?

Anyway, Confusion was changed significantly in PF so watch out for that, then.

Mind telling me what books are allowed? (Both editions.)

Also what rules are you taking from PF? You say 3.5 rules but you mentioned Acrobatics in the OP.

[Feint's End]

Well technically all books are allowed bu right now I just don't own ultimate magic. The dm plays 3.5 but he really likes some of the PF changes. So the skills are ruled together like in PF. Acrobatics, perception stealth etc etc. only things unchanged from 3.5 is diplomacy and gather information, speak language and decipher script etc. basically PF linguistics and diplomacy are still 3.5.

The dm is very lenient to PF classes though meaning he allows most things if it fits the world. Also the reason why I'm allowed to play witch.

As I've mentioned the group in general is low to mid op though and I am far from needing to optimize in any way to keep up with them.

They all use the 3.5 version of their classes btw so there is that too. And all of them are quite suboptimal built except maybe for the warblade ( hard to screw up and such).

Tbh the dm specifically asked me to not build for power since he wants the group to stay in a very controllable level and he just allowed me to join because he appreciates me as a role player.

[graeylin]

A) Orc, thank you for the correction. However, don't half-orcs count as orcs where racial lines are considered?

b) My suggestion for replacing eschew materials (which, while handy, I don't typically take because have always loved the playing of material components as part of the magic) is extra hex. Being able to swap between slumber and misfortune and have others to fall back on... once again, priceless. Of course, cackle is a MUST HAVE, as a second hex, no matter what.

[Vortenger]

A) Orc, thank you for the correction. However, don't half-orcs count as orcs where racial lines are considered?


I always thought so. It says for 'all effects related to race'. Racial Heritage, the human feat, has been argued to work in such a fashion and shares the same language. I bet it doesn't fly In PFS, though. Someone more researched than I will probably provide a better ruling.

[Andvare]

I always thought so. It says for 'all effects related to race'. Racial Heritage, the human feat, has been argued to work in such a fashion and shares the same language. I bet it doesn't fly In PFS, though. Someone more researched than I will probably provide a better ruling.

It's because of the wording that they can't. An archetype isn't "an effect" (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fn#v5748eaic9n86).

Edit: The Racial Heritage feat (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/arg-feats/racial-heritage) has specifically been FAQ'ed (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fn#v5748eaic9pka) to include racial archetypes.
So, yes, a human can become a Scarred Witch Doctor, while a half-orc can't. Silly, but those are the rules. A sensible GM would probably do things differently.

[Feint's End]

Hey guys ... thanks for the great suggestions so far! I'm gonna change my first level feat to Accursed Hex but my first hex stays Flight since it fits the place this character grew up (wouldn't have survived there without a way to featherfall). second feat is probably gonna be extra hex so I have the most important ones up till level 4 or so.

So basically my Character is a Halfling using an ancient Couatl battle magic with a gliding monkey familiar (gotta talk my dm into this :D ).

[Tira-chan]

I'd actually say that Evil Eye is a slightly better choice than Misfortune for your first hex. There's no limit on the number of times you can cast it on a target per day, and even if they do make their Will save, it only reduces the duration to one round. It also has a longer duration than Misfortune, so it will stay effective even if you don't pick up Cackle.

[Vortenger]

It's because of the wording that they can't. An archetype isn't "an effect" (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fn#v5748eaic9n86).

Edit: The Racial Heritage feat (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/arg-feats/racial-heritage) has specifically been FAQ'ed (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fn#v5748eaic9pka) to include racial archetypes.
So, yes, a human can become a Scarred Witch Doctor, while a half-orc can't. Silly, but those are the rules. A sensible GM would probably do things differently.

While you are correct, it doesn't make a lick of sense. They use the same terms! Once one sets a precedent, should the other not conform as it uses the same language? This seems like a direct conflict within the faq.

[Andvare]

While you are correct, it doesn't make a lick of sense. They use the same terms! Once one sets a precedent, should the other not conform as it uses the same language? This seems like a direct conflict within the faq.

Yup.
Paizo does this somethimes, like with the Flurry of Blows SNAFU and the Armour Spike sillyness.
They do have some good ideas, I like most of their classes, but they aren't any better than WotC at rules consistency and balance (makes sense, they all come from WotC).

[3WhiteFox3]

It's because of the wording that they can't. An archetype isn't "an effect" (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fn#v5748eaic9n86).

Edit: The Racial Heritage feat (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/arg-feats/racial-heritage) has specifically been FAQ'ed (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fn#v5748eaic9pka) to include racial archetypes.
So, yes, a human can become a Scarred Witch Doctor, while a half-orc can't. Silly, but those are the rules. A sensible GM would probably do things differently.

That first FAQ link isn't about Archetypes, it's about favored class bonuses (like a human Sorcerer's extra spells known) the one about Racial Heritage specifically calls out Archetypes. But in the Core Rulebook's FAQ, it does say that Half-elves can't take human archetypes. Which is really, really stupid, even without the contradiction. Why are feats any more an effect than Archetypes? It sounds like an arbitrary decision because one of the designers thought: 'Oh my, the half-x races might have a situational benefit for some archetypes! Time for the nerf bat!'