What's the point of Types using different HD?

[johnbragg]

I'm pretty sure that in 2E, everything in the Monstrous Compendium had d8 Hit Dice, except for a handful that had less than 1 HD.

In the move from 2E D&D to 3E, it was decided that different Types would roll d8 s, d10s, d12s. What was the logic behind the change, that now whether something was a Magical Beast or an Aberration would affect its hit points?

Oops, I thought I was in the Roleplaying forum. :Blush:

[Chronos]

I can't speak for the designers, but I think it just makes sense that some things ought to be inherently tougher than others. As for why this wasn't the case in 2nd edition, well, the monsters were a lot less detailed in second edition. Most monsters didn't have Strength scores, none had Wis, Cha, Dex, or Con scores, and they didn't even actually have saving throws (how we ever considered that acceptable, I don't know). Them all having the same size HD just seems par for the course, there.

[johnbragg]

I can't speak for the designers, but I think it just makes sense that some things ought to be inherently tougher than others.

Well, yeah. They had more Hit Dice. But at some point the decision was made that some got more Hit Dice, and some got *better* Hit Dice.


As for why this wasn't the case in 2nd edition, well, the monsters were a lot less detailed in second edition. Most monsters didn't have Strength scores, none had Wis, Cha, Dex, or Con scores, and they didn't even actually have saving throws (how we ever considered that acceptable, I don't know). Them all having the same size HD just seems par for the course, there.

I suppose with all the upgrades to the monster entries (CR vs XP, monster stats, average hit points given) I suppose it doesn't hurt anything at all to have that extra bit of complexity. A 4d10 Magical Beast has 22 hp and a 5d8 Aberration has the same 22 hp.

It might also have to do with rules for monster advancement. A magical beast can only advance by Hit Dice, so it gets the bump to d10s. A humanoid is going to advance with class levels, so they get left at d8s.

[rs2excelsior]

A 4d10 Magical Beast has 22 hp and a 5d8 Aberration has the same 22 hp.

I don't play D&D, but if those dice are actually rolled for a particular monster's HP, the Magical Beast has 4-40 hp and the Aberration has 5-40 hp. The distribution for the Aberration will be tighter around the center by a bit.

[johnbragg]

I don't play D&D, but if those dice are actually rolled for a particular monster's HP, the Magical Beast has 4-40 hp and the Aberration has 5-40 hp. The distribution for the Aberration will be tighter around the center by a bit.

I was going by average rolls, which is what the Monster Manual entries do (at least I think so). A d4 will average 2.5, a d6 3.5, a d8 4.5, d10 5.5, d12 6.5. So 4d10 averages 4x5.5=22, while 5d8 averages 5x4.5=22.5, and WOTC rounds down.

And the monsters did have Saving Throws. It was just blocked as "Save As: Fighter 4" or "Save As: Wizard 10" or whatever.

[TuggyNE]

IWhat was the logic behind the change, that now whether something was a Magical Beast or an Aberration would affect its hit points?

Basically, quality versus quantity of HD; undead get tons of d12s to compensate for their complete lack of Con, constructs get lots of d10s and bonus HP by size for the same reason; fey are fragile, so they get d6s, humanoids and animals are normal, so they get d8s, and dragons are just super-awesome and also great, so they get d12s and high Con.


I was going by average rolls, which is what the Monster Manual entries do (at least I think so). A d4 will average 2.5, a d6 3.5, a d8 4.5, d10 5.5, d12 6.5. So 4d10 averages 4x5.5=22, while 5d8 averages 5x4.5=22.5, and WOTC rounds down.

The MM entries tell you the averages, yes; however, it's also valid to actually roll those, in which case the variance is relevant. What's more, advancing monsters has its own rules for adding HD, how much that adds to the CR, and so on; different types get different amounts of additional HP accordingly.

[eggynack]

Well, yeah. They had more Hit Dice. But at some point the decision was made that some got more Hit Dice, and some got *better* Hit Dice.

I think the thing you're missing is that more hit dice and better hit dice are two completely different things. If a creature has 4d10, and another creature has 5d8, those creatures have similar amounts of HP. However, given the same BAB, save, and skill progressions, the 5d8 creature will be more powerful in non-HP ways. In other words, a high hit die allows for a creature with high HP relative to its other abilities, while a low hit die allows for a creature with low HP relative to its other abilities. Similarly, a high level wizard will have the same amount of HP as a lower level cleric, but the wizard will be more powerful despite that. A creature with more HD is, all other things being equal, more powerful than a creature with less HD, even if the two creatures have the same HP. Having different HD sizes allows for a more modular system.

[Invader]

Because a duck and a demon lord of the nine hells shouldn't share the same hit die... :smallamused:

[Yuki Akuma]

Different creature types are effectively different classes in third edition. They have different base attack bonuses, different saves, different amounts of skill points, even different weapon proficiencies.

You might as well be asking why different classes get different sized hit dice.

[Psyren]

The average rolls are listed for convenience/speed of play. You're expected to either use the maximums (if you want a slightly harder game) or actually roll them if you're the kind of DM that likes that kind of randomness. (Some DMs roll for everything, including treasure or random encounters.)

[Fax Celestis]

It might also have to do with rules for monster advancement. A magical beast can only advance by Hit Dice, so it gets the bump to d10s. A humanoid is going to advance with class levels, so they get left at d8s.

Uh, no. That's not true at all (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/unicorn.htm#celestialCharger).

The only requirement for advancing via class is being intelligent enough to do so. Generally in game terms, this means having Int 3 or more.

[Yuki Akuma]

It even works in reverse - Bugbears (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/bugbear.htm) have three racial hit dice, and they're Humanoids. So, no, humanoids weren't 'left as' d8s. Just because most humanoids have only one hit die and therefore replace it with a class level doesn't mean the humanoid hit die type is never used.

[johnbragg]

Because a duck and a demon lord of the nine hells shouldn't share the same hit die... :smallamused:

Well, the duck gets one and the demon lord gets 24, so that works. (Worked.)

That aside, people are making good points, which is why I'm glad I asked the question--I'm getting answers.



Different creature types are effectively different classes in third edition. They have different base attack bonuses, different saves, different amounts of skill points, even different weapon proficiencies.

You might as well be asking why different classes get different sized hit dice.
That's an excellent point.


However, given the same BAB, save, and skill progressions, the 5d8 creature will be more powerful in non-HP ways. In other words, a high hit die allows for a creature with high HP relative to its other abilities, while a low hit die allows for a creature with low HP relative to its other abilities.

Also a good point. It makes d10 or d12 HD another benefit some monsters get compared to other monsters. It also allows Fey to have appropriate Hit Points while having decent Base Attack Bonus so their ranged attacks can actually hit.

So, like a lot of 3E mechanics, it added a bit of complexity in the name of having options.

[XionUnborn01]

The way I always looked at it was this: A 1HD magical beast (Darkmantle (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/darkmantle.htm) for example) verses a 1HD animal (Owl (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/owl.htm)for example)

A magical beast should be more impressive, tougher, and durable than an animal of the same HD level, so that's where the differences in the types come in.

Animal: d8HD, 3/4 BAB, Good Fort and Ref save, 2+int Skill Points
Magical Beast: d10HD, Full BAB, Good Fort and Ref save, 2+int Skill points


So, not a huge difference per HD, but the difference quickly becomes apparent with the addition of HD.

Hope this helps.

[137beth]

I think the thing you're missing is that more hit dice and better hit dice are two completely different things. If a creature has 4d10, and another creature has 5d8, those creatures have similar amounts of HP. However, given the same BAB, save, and skill progressions, the 5d8 creature will be more powerful in non-HP ways. In other words, a high hit die allows for a creature with high HP relative to its other abilities, while a low hit die allows for a creature with low HP relative to its other abilities. Similarly, a high level wizard will have the same amount of HP as a lower level cleric, but the wizard will be more powerful despite that. A creature with more HD is, all other things being equal, more powerful than a creature with less HD, even if the two creatures have the same HP. Having different HD sizes allows for a more modular system.

Unless you actually roll the hit-dice, you could accomplish roughly the same effect by adjusting the creature's constitution score (or charisma if it gets charisma to hit-points). Instead of giving dragons d12 HD, you could just give all dragons +4 to constitution, and give Fey a -2 to constitution.


But yea, my guess is that they did it to parody class advancement. Which I think is a good thing...

[eggynack]

Unless you actually roll the hit-dice, you could accomplish the exact same effect by adjusting the creature's constitution score (or charisma if it gets charisma to hit-points). Instead of giving dragons d12 HD, you could just give all dragons +4 to constitution, and give Fey a -2 to constitution.
Not really. You'd basically have to write down, "All dragons get +4 to constitution, -2 on fort saves, and concentration checks. If a dragon is reduced to four constitution by a magical effect, the dragon is treated as if it has zero constitution." I dunno if that got all of the regular effects, but there's also a pile of other secondary benefits that you can pick up x stat to y bonus (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125732) style.

[137beth]

It's not identical, no. You wouldn't write "all dragons get +4 to constitution". But there are no rules for deciding monster ability scores, so you can make the constitution score whatever you need to get the desired hit point total. It does have the side effect of altering fortitude saves, though.

Most monsters don't do a lot of x stat to y bonus, the big exceptions being using dex to attack and undead getting charisma to hit points (automatically in PF). For a vast majority of monsters, the only two significant effects of constitution that come into play are hit points and fortitude saves. The types with high hit points tend to also have good fortitude, so that's not an issue.
Again, I think that there is a very good reason for the different sized hit dice, and that is to keep parody with classes. Giving "tough" creatures more hit points is not by itself a good reason for the extra complication.

[Fax Celestis]

Again, I think that there is a very good reason for the different sized hit dice, and that is to keep parody with classes. Giving "tough" creatures more hit points is not by itself a good reason for the extra complication.

The word you are looking for is "parity".

</nitpick>

[eggynack]

It's not identical, no. You wouldn't write "all dragons get +4 to constitution". But there are no rules for deciding monster ability scores, so you can make the constitution score whatever you need to get the desired hit point total. It does have the side effect of altering fortitude saves, though.

Most monsters don't do a lot of x stat to y bonus, the big exceptions being using dex to attack and undead getting charisma to hit points (automatically in PF). For a vast majority of monsters, the only two significant effects of constitution that come into play are hit points and fortitude saves. The types with high hit points tend to also have good fortitude, so that's not an issue.
Again, I think that there is a very good reason for the different sized hit dice, and that is to keep parody with classes. Giving "tough" creatures more hit points is not by itself a good reason for the extra complication.
Not all monsters are NPC's. PC's are always monsters, and sometimes they're even monsters of the type we're talking about. Even if NPC type monsters don't use this constitution bump on types, PC's are likely to. There's no real extra complication to using differently sized hit dice to denote tough creatures. Different monsters have different hit dice, and those with higher hit dice are tougher relative to their other stats. Basically, I'm saying that your constitution bump method causes more problems than it solves.